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God doesn't love everyone !

the-good-teacher
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8/8/2010 3:40:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I find most people wrongly think that the bible teaches that "God loves us all", How wrong they are !

Here is where most people will resort to Jn 3:16, and state that "God loves every human being".

John 3:16 "For God so loved (Aorist,Active,Indicative - at an aorist point in time) the world ("kosmos", the "world" points to the "world" of those who are presently believing, in this context), that he gave (Aorist,Active,Indicative) his only begotten Son, (the "point in time" of the Cross) that whosoever believeth (Present Active - is presently believing) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

Jn 3:16, does not state that "God loves every human being", as is so commonly thought from reading the English versions. Jn 3:16 in the Greek, is a promise directed to the "world" of those who are "presently believing".

As the Pharisees stated, in Jn 12:19, "The WORLD (kosmos) is going after Jesus". Was every human being going after Jesus? Of course not, the Pharisees who made the statement wanted to kill Jesus, and it was just an embarrassingly large group of people in Palestine, who were going after Jesus, that is what the Pharisees are concerned about. They were concerned about the "world" of those who were "going after", or "tending to follow" Jesus.

Isa 55:11 So shall MY WORD be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE, AND IT SHALL PROSPER [IN THE THING] WHERETO I SENT IT.

If God "loved" every human being, and "desired" their salvation, then every human being would be saved.

God does not love every human being, starting with Rom. 9:13 "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated". In this same context, in Rom 9:11, God's decision concerning Jacob and Esau is stated to have been made before the two were born, and not on the basis of "their will", or "their works", but on the basis of God's "election", or His "choosing out from among" the two brothers.

Psa. 5:5 states "thou hatest all workers of iniquity".

So, the Bible teaches that God does not "love every human being".

Let's go back to eternity past, and look at the clearly revealed statements of God's will, desires, and decrees, "before the foundation of the earth":

Eph 1:4, and 2 Tim 1:9 teach that those who will be saved were chosen "before the foundation of the world":

Eph 1:4 "According as he hath chosen (Greek "eklectos") us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love".

2 Tim 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began".

We clearly see from these verses that God made His decision about who He would "save" and who He would allow to go their own way - "before the foundation of the world". So there could be no "point in time" where God "loved every human being".

We also see men who will not believe, who God has "ordained to condemnation" - Jude 4 "Ungodly men, before of old ordained to condemnation". Did Jesus "atone" for the sins of men who were "before of old ordained to condemnation"?

We see false teachers who stumble at the Word, being disobedient: "whereunto also they were appointed" - 1 Pet 2:8 "a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed". Did Jesus "atone" for the sins of men who were so "appointed"?

We see false teachers who are described as "natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed", in 2 Pet 2:12. Did Jesus "atone" for the sins of these "natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed"?

Jesus prayed in John 17:9 "I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine". How could Jesus state that "God so loved the world" in John 3:16, and then turn around and state that He was "not praying for the world"? John 3:16 speaks of the "world" of those who are "presently believing", and, in John 17:9, Jesus speaks of the "world" of "those who will reject Him" and will not believe in Him.

If anyone can find a scripture where the reader is told "God loves everyone" then please share it . but I know such a scripture doesn't exist !
Alias
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8/8/2010 3:56:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
So basically, what you're saying is "God only loves people who unconditionally believe in him and never question."

...yeah, doesn't sound like a religion I want to believe in.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/8/2010 3:59:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 3:52:15 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You're a calvinist?

Why, are you a universalist (all will be saved)?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
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8/8/2010 4:04:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 3:59:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/8/2010 3:52:15 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You're a calvinist?

Why, are you a universalist (all will be saved)?

No...

I meant is he a calvinist in that they tend to think that God only loves certain people and that he predestined certain people to go to heaven and hell. So, it's really a kind of determinism.

This debate between Arminians and Calvinists has been going on for a long time.

http://www.the-highway.com...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
JustCallMeTarzan
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8/8/2010 4:05:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 3:40:03 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:

John 3:16 "For God so loved (Aorist,Active,Indicative - at an aorist point in time) the world ("kosmos", the "world" points to the "world" of those who are presently believing, in this context)...

Basis? Actually, the Greek kosmos is better translated as "everything" or "the universe" than as "world."
the-good-teacher
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8/8/2010 4:19:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 4:05:18 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 8/8/2010 3:40:03 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:

John 3:16 "For God so loved (Aorist,Active,Indicative - at an aorist point in time) the world ("kosmos", the "world" points to the "world" of those who are presently believing, in this context)...

Basis? Actually, the Greek kosmos is better translated as "everything" or "the universe" than as "world."

I have no idea where you got your info from but here's where I got mine = Strong's #G2889 - kosmos = world = 186.. - kosmos = Adorning (of stars planets) = 1.
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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8/8/2010 5:08:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
God loves everyone but his Love cannot supersede his Laws an excellent talk on this can be found here
http://www.lds.org...
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
the-good-teacher
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8/8/2010 5:46:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 5:08:10 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
God loves everyone but his Love cannot supersede his Laws an excellent talk on this can be found here

Sorry but the first ref provided in that talk was taken way out of context, and I had to delete the talk soon after because it was making me feel sick and ready to vomit.

"Who shall separate us (believers) from the love of Christ?" the Apostle Paul asked. Not tribulation, not persecution, not peril or the sword (see Romans 8:35). "For I am persuaded," he concluded, "that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, . . . nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God" (verses 38–39). = Paul was a "believer" so he was asking about believers "US" not "anyone else"

And then it talks of John 3:16 which I covered on opening/

Mormons wrongly believe that God has given man "free agency" and will not remove it, but they have no biblical scripture to back this up !
So Watch out for these wolves folks !!!
Book of Mormon (BOM) + Bible = BOMB = DANGER !!!!! ,,
Mormon leaders will continually change their teachings to suit the tide of time, because it's the only way to continually pull in the millions $$$$$$$$ every week.
Avoid them like the plague they were sent when due to harvest their first crop !
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/8/2010 5:48:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 5:46:57 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/8/2010 5:08:10 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
God loves everyone but his Love cannot supersede his Laws an excellent talk on this can be found here

Sorry but the first ref provided in that talk was taken way out of context, and I had to delete the talk soon after because it was making me feel sick and ready to vomit.

"Who shall separate us (believers) from the love of Christ?" the Apostle Paul asked. Not tribulation, not persecution, not peril or the sword (see Romans 8:35). "For I am persuaded," he concluded, "that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, . . . nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God" (verses 38–39). = Paul was a "believer" so he was asking about believers "US" not "anyone else"

And then it talks of John 3:16 which I covered on opening/

Mormons wrongly believe that God has given man "free agency" and will not remove it, but they have no biblical scripture to back this up !
So Watch out for these wolves folks !!!
Book of Mormon (BOM) + Bible = BOMB = DANGER !!!!! ,,
Mormon leaders will continually change their teachings to suit the tide of time, because it's the only way to continually pull in the millions $$$$$$$$ every week.
Avoid them like the plague they were sent when due to harvest their first crop !

Joseph Smith could be one of the false prophets mentioned and warned about in earlier scriptures.
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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8/8/2010 5:51:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 5:46:57 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/8/2010 5:08:10 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
God loves everyone but his Love cannot supersede his Laws an excellent talk on this can be found here

Sorry but the first ref provided in that talk was taken way out of context, and I had to delete the talk soon after because it was making me feel sick and ready to vomit.

"Who shall separate us (believers) from the love of Christ?" the Apostle Paul asked. Not tribulation, not persecution, not peril or the sword (see Romans 8:35). "For I am persuaded," he concluded, "that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, . . . nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God" (verses 38–39). = Paul was a "believer" so he was asking about believers "US" not "anyone else"

And then it talks of John 3:16 which I covered on opening/

Mormons wrongly believe that God has given man "free agency" and will not remove it, but they have no biblical scripture to back this up !
So Watch out for these wolves folks !!!
Book of Mormon (BOM) + Bible = BOMB = DANGER !!!!! ,,
Mormon leaders will continually change their teachings to suit the tide of time, because it's the only way to continually pull in the millions $$$$$$$$ every week.
Avoid them like the plague they were sent when due to harvest their first crop !

Let me ask you this then by what authority are you teaching I why do you think of yourself as a teacher?
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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8/8/2010 6:05:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 4:04:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/8/2010 3:59:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/8/2010 3:52:15 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You're a calvinist?

Why, are you a universalist (all will be saved)?

No...

I meant is he a calvinist in that they tend to think that God only loves certain people and that he predestined certain people to go to heaven and hell. So, it's really a kind of determinism.


This debate between Arminians and Calvinists has been going on for a long time.

http://www.the-highway.com...

The Arminians win. Calvinists walk right into the logical PoE and the argument from non-belief, unless you want to weasel your way out of it and say God is a real sadistic kind of guy...
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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8/8/2010 6:15:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Genesis 4:7 (King James Version)

7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Deuteronomy 11:27
11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

Deuteronomy 30:19 (King James Version)

19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joshua 24:15
24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

1 Kings 18:21 (King James Version)

21And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Proverbs 1:29 (King James Version)

29For that they hated knowledge, and did notchoose the fear of the LORD:
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/8/2010 6:37:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 6:05:42 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
The Arminians win. Calvinists walk right into the logical PoE and the argument from non-belief, unless you want to weasel your way out of it and say God is a real sadistic kind of guy...

That may be true (that Calvinists face that problem, but don't they all?), but the Calvinists are right.

"In Christ we too have been claimed as God's own possession, since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things" (Ephesians 1:11,12)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called" (Romans 8:29,30)

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." (2 Timothy 1:19)
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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8/8/2010 6:58:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You post old covenant ?,,= bondage scriptures in the covenant of "Grace" ? ..

Rom 8:15 "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father".

Rom 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace".

God told Cain who was living in the dispensation of conscience after the fall of his father who lived under the dispensation of innocence in the garden, that "if he acted according to his conscience", = Faith, = he would then also be rewarded like his brother was, = made righteous

Let me show you --
Heb 11:4 "BY FAITH" Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

"BY FAITH" = Rom 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". = God told them both what to offer, and "by faith" Able followed the command according to the dictates of his conscience. = Able was made righteous "by faith".. = so are we = 1 John 5:1 says " Whosoever (presently) believeth that Jesus is the Christ is (has already been) born of God. = no works = no bondage= Grace !
the-good-teacher
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8/8/2010 7:08:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 6:37:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/8/2010 6:05:42 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
The Arminians win. Calvinists walk right into the logical PoE and the argument from non-belief, unless you want to weasel your way out of it and say God is a real sadistic kind of guy...

That may be true (that Calvinists face that problem, but don't they all?), but the Calvinists are right.

"In Christ we too have been claimed as God's own possession, since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things" (Ephesians 1:11,12)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called" (Romans 8:29,30)

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." (2 Timothy 1:19)

Correct !!!
What did God tell Moses ?

Rom 9:14-18:

14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth (wants it), nor of him that runneth (works for it), but of God that showeth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. = the father chooses for the bridegroom (Jesus) = Hebrew tradition as seen in Gen 38:6 = we are the bride, Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us and will return to take us home. the bride cannot choose the bridegroom !!
popculturepooka
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8/8/2010 7:22:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 6:05:42 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 8/8/2010 4:04:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/8/2010 3:59:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/8/2010 3:52:15 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You're a calvinist?

Why, are you a universalist (all will be saved)?

No...

I meant is he a calvinist in that they tend to think that God only loves certain people and that he predestined certain people to go to heaven and hell. So, it's really a kind of determinism.


This debate between Arminians and Calvinists has been going on for a long time.

http://www.the-highway.com...

The Arminians win. Calvinists walk right into the logical PoE and the argument from non-belief, unless you want to weasel your way out of it and say God is a real sadistic kind of guy...

Yup, one of the MANY reasons I'm an Arminian. Funny how when I was pondering about becoming a Calvinist was the closest I came to turning back into an atheist. :D
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/8/2010 7:24:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 6:37:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/8/2010 6:05:42 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
The Arminians win. Calvinists walk right into the logical PoE and the argument from non-belief, unless you want to weasel your way out of it and say God is a real sadistic kind of guy...

That may be true (that Calvinists face that problem, but don't they all?), but the Calvinists are right.

"In Christ we too have been claimed as God's own possession, since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things" (Ephesians 1:11,12)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called" (Romans 8:29,30)

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." (2 Timothy 1:19)

I actually meant predetermined. My bad. Predetermination is different from predestination. Calvinists believe in the former.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
JustCallMeTarzan
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8/8/2010 11:12:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 4:19:17 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/8/2010 4:05:18 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 8/8/2010 3:40:03 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:

John 3:16 "For God so loved (Aorist,Active,Indicative - at an aorist point in time) the world ("kosmos", the "world" points to the "world" of those who are presently believing, in this context)...

Basis? Actually, the Greek kosmos is better translated as "everything" or "the universe" than as "world."

I have no idea where you got your info from but here's where I got mine = Strong's #G2889 - kosmos = world = 186.. - kosmos = Adorning (of stars planets) = 1.

http://www.etymonline.com...

"Pythagoras is said to have been the first to apply this word to "the universe," perhaps originally meaning "the starry firmament," but later it was extended to the whole physical world, including the earth. For specific reference to "the world of people," the classical phrase was he oikoumene (ge) "the inhabited (earth)." Septuagint uses both kosmos and oikoumene. Kosmos also was used in Christian religious writing with a sense of "worldly life, this world (as opposed to the afterlife)," but the more frequent word for this was aion, lit. "lifetime, age.""

You need to exhibit some better scholarship to be taken seriously.
Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/8/2010 11:32:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
LOL!

Don't know about "god" and his predilections, but judging by what's taking place in Pakistan with the flooding allah certainly hates the locals!
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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8/9/2010 1:17:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
http://www.etymonline.com...

"Pythagoras is said to have been the first to apply this word to "the universe," perhaps originally meaning "the starry firmament," but later it was extended to the whole physical world, including the earth. For specific reference to "the world of people," the classical phrase was he oikoumene (ge) "the inhabited (earth)." Septuagint uses both kosmos and oikoumene. Kosmos also was used in Christian religious writing with a sense of "worldly life, this world (as opposed to the afterlife)," but the more frequent word for this was aion, lit. "lifetime, age.""

You need to exhibit some better scholarship to be taken seriously.

http://www.etymonline.com...

"Pythagoras is said to have been the first to apply this word to "the universe," perhaps originally meaning "the starry firmament," but later it was extended to the whole physical world, including the earth. For specific reference to "the world of people," the classical phrase was he oikoumene (ge) "the inhabited (earth)." Septuagint uses both kosmos and oikoumene. Kosmos also was used in Christian religious writing with a sense of "worldly life, this world (as opposed to the afterlife)," but the more frequent word for this was aion, lit. "lifetime, age.""

You need to exhibit some better scholarship to be taken seriously.

Strong's is word by word the original wording of the bible, a better Ref cannot be used your definition has not been used in bible scripture = it does not exist, 186 times it was translated to = "world" and once alone to mean something other,

I really don't think you know what Strong's is, why would you use a dictionary that had nothing to do with the Greek writers of the bible ?

I suspect the dictionary Ref you used related to "clasical Greek" anyways the New Testament was not written in Classical Greek, it was written in "Koine Greek" which is "common Greek" or "street Greek"

We're talking about the bible and how it translates the word "Kosmos", it can mean whatever, but the point here is centered on what did the writers of the bible use it to mean ?
So looking to an outside source doesn't cut it, if your going to refer to bible wordings then I suggest you keep to the bible and don't get sidetracked to irrelevant history relating to how others used it, 186 times it was translated to mean World, and from there looking in context we go to "world of believers" or "nonbelievers" as the results dictate.

I was amazed you bypassed the bible wordings translations and usage in favour of a classical dictionary.which has no relevance whatsoever.

κόσμος = Kosmos. used 187 times in the bible, and 186 times translated into "world",

Lets look at Matt 13:38 it deviates but adds to my point that "God doesn't love everyone", because if he does, he also loves Satan's children, I remember he called these children "Vipers" ,, Anyway Matt 13:38 "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one";

Does God love the children of the "wicked one" ?,, Then why will he burn what he loves ?, would he not just have a place for them without the barbie ?

"Made (created) to be taken and destroyed" is this an example of how he "loves", or does he not really love these people ? (2 Peter 2:12)

Have a look at Strong's lexicon, it only contains words of the bible and how they were used by the writers.
It is also the most accurate and reliable source of Biblical wordings !
Puck
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8/9/2010 1:44:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The issue is not the transcription of kosmos into world, but the contextual meaning of world within a given verse since it has been used as universe as a whole, the earth itself, humanity, non believers, gentiles etc.
JustCallMeTarzan
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8/9/2010 1:50:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 1:17:51 AM, the-good-teacher wrote:

We're talking about the bible and how it translates the word "Kosmos", it can mean whatever, but the point here is centered on what did the writers of the bible use it to mean ?

And your basis for confining it to "world of believers" ??

So looking to an outside source doesn't cut it, if your going to refer to bible wordings then I suggest you keep to the bible and don't get sidetracked to irrelevant history relating to how others used it, 186 times it was translated to mean World, and from there looking in context we go to "world of believers" or "nonbelievers" as the results dictate.

If we're going to look at context, how about the whole Gospel of Luke, which was written specifically with an eye towards nonbelievers? What about that kind of context? There are no contextual clues in John that point to "kosmos" meaning "world of believers."

I was amazed you bypassed the bible wordings translations and usage in favour of a classical dictionary.which has no relevance whatsoever.

κόσμος = Kosmos. used 187 times in the bible, and 186 times translated into "world",

Sure - let's look then at how the Greek was translated to Latin - an intermediary step to the English you are reading. John 3:16 in Latin reads:

"Sic enim Deus dilexit mundum, ut Filium suum unigenitum daret: ut omnis qui credit in eum, non pereat, sed habeat vitam æternam."

The word we are looking for is MUNDUM - world. It means world as in terra firma. Not world as in a collection of people.

Have a look at Strong's lexicon, it only contains words of the bible and how they were used by the writers.
It is also the most accurate and reliable source of Biblical wordings !

Yes, let's have a look at the lexicon. Kosmos... number 2889.

Kosmos is used 58 times in John. The other 57 times besides 3:16, it is clear from context that kosmos means "the circle of the earth, the earth" or "the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family."

Now you are saying without any other contextual support and in the face of contextual evidence AGAINST your position that in this one case of 58, world does not mean "the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family" as it is used similarly, but rather means "believers only."

We're not debating the interpretation of kosmos as "world" - we are debating what "world" means. Your definition has absolutely no support.

Consider this - English has many times the number of words that Greek does, making translations very easy when it comes to expressing precise ideas. If the translators had gleaned that "kosmos" really meant "believers only" instead of "the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family," as it is used, then they would have translated it as "his followers," "the believers," "his brethren," or "his people."

Your reading of "world" as meaning "believers only" requires:

1) We ignore the English translation of world - meaning Earth & the people on it.
2) We ignore the Latin translation of kosmos as mundum, meaning terra firma.
3) We ignore the contextual evidence of Luke as a gospel for all peoples.
4) We ignore the contextual evidence of the other 57 occurrences of kosmos.
5) We ignore the lack of evidence that supports the transition from "world" to "believers only."

So as you can see, there really is no basis for your assertion.
brian_eggleston
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8/9/2010 2:04:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I though the Jews were God's chosen people and all gentiles will burn in the pits of Hell for all eternity.

If you can afford it, you should convert to Judaism, otherwise you may as well have a good time down on Earth because being a good Christian won't help you at the Pearly Gates when St. Peter points to the sign that reads: "Fully Paid-Up, Card-Carrying Jews Only. Strictly No Gentiles."
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
JustCallMeTarzan
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8/9/2010 9:18:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 2:04:45 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I though the Jews were God's chosen people and all gentiles will burn in the pits of Hell for all eternity.

Dunno why I'm arguing this, but - Galatians 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Though I agree that you should just have as much fun as you can because everyone who believes in the afterlife is going to be very disappointed when they die.
the-good-teacher
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8/9/2010 9:32:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
And your basis for confining it to "world of believers" ?

Read "outline of biblical usage" in the link,
Forget that, you don't know what Strong's is.
lets look at the word in context (this example was provided in the original post)

If "God so loved the world" ( = everyone) then "Everyone was following Jesus in John 12:19, but we know this was not the case, because the people who made the statement "the Pharisees" were not following Jesus,

So we know that the word "World" cannot always mean "Everyone"
We know a "world of believers" were following Jesus and Jesus only prayed for those his father gave him and not the world (of non believers) John 17:9

how simple is that ?

Did Jesus tell the nonbelievers their father was Satan ? = Yes !,, and did he call them "vipers" ? = Yes = a fantastic display of love ? = NO.

So did God so love "everyone" in the world that he sent his only begotten son ?

1 Pet 2:7-9 "Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: where unto also they were appointed. But ye [are] a chosen (elect) generation,(offspring or family) a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light". ("They" were appointed to remain in their disobedience - Believers are Elect). = the world of darkness = world of nonbelievers and the world of light = believers,

= believers and nonbelievers are worlds apart ..

Find out about Strong's and then make an argument it is used by every Christian denomination as a study tool. each word has a unique ID #,
All the best on this subject !
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/9/2010 9:56:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/8/2010 3:40:03 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
I find most people wrongly think that the bible teaches that "God loves us all", How wrong they are !

Here is where most people will resort to Jn 3:16, and state that "God loves every human being".

John 3:16 "For God so loved (Aorist,Active,Indicative - at an aorist point in time) the world ("kosmos", the "world" points to the "world" of those who are presently believing, in this context), that he gave (Aorist,Active,Indicative) his only begotten Son, (the "point in time" of the Cross) that whosoever believeth (Present Active - is presently believing) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

Jn 3:16, does not state that "God loves every human being", as is so commonly thought from reading the English versions. Jn 3:16 in the Greek, is a promise directed to the "world" of those who are "presently believing".

As the Pharisees stated, in Jn 12:19, "The WORLD (kosmos) is going after Jesus". Was every human being going after Jesus? Of course not, the Pharisees who made the statement wanted to kill Jesus, and it was just an embarrassingly large group of people in Palestine, who were going after Jesus, that is what the Pharisees are concerned about. They were concerned about the "world" of those who were "going after", or "tending to follow" Jesus.

Isa 55:11 So shall MY WORD be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE, AND IT SHALL PROSPER [IN THE THING] WHERETO I SENT IT.

If God "loved" every human being, and "desired" their salvation, then every human being would be saved.

God does not love every human being, starting with Rom. 9:13 "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated". In this same context, in Rom 9:11, God's decision concerning Jacob and Esau is stated to have been made before the two were born, and not on the basis of "their will", or "their works", but on the basis of God's "election", or His "choosing out from among" the two brothers.

Psa. 5:5 states "thou hatest all workers of iniquity".

So, the Bible teaches that God does not "love every human being".

Let's go back to eternity past, and look at the clearly revealed statements of God's will, desires, and decrees, "before the foundation of the earth":

Eph 1:4, and 2 Tim 1:9 teach that those who will be saved were chosen "before the foundation of the world":

Eph 1:4 "According as he hath chosen (Greek "eklectos") us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love".

2 Tim 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began".

We clearly see from these verses that God made His decision about who He would "save" and who He would allow to go their own way - "before the foundation of the world". So there could be no "point in time" where God "loved every human being".

We also see men who will not believe, who God has "ordained to condemnation" - Jude 4 "Ungodly men, before of old ordained to condemnation". Did Jesus "atone" for the sins of men who were "before of old ordained to condemnation"?

We see false teachers who stumble at the Word, being disobedient: "whereunto also they were appointed" - 1 Pet 2:8 "a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed". Did Jesus "atone" for the sins of men who were so "appointed"?

We see false teachers who are described as "natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed", in 2 Pet 2:12. Did Jesus "atone" for the sins of these "natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed"?

Jesus prayed in John 17:9 "I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine". How could Jesus state that "God so loved the world" in John 3:16, and then turn around and state that He was "not praying for the world"? John 3:16 speaks of the "world" of those who are "presently believing", and, in John 17:9, Jesus speaks of the "world" of "those who will reject Him" and will not believe in Him.

If anyone can find a scripture where the reader is told "God loves everyone" then please share it . but I know such a scripture doesn't exist !

Matthew 18:14
In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.


Leave it to DATCMOTO debate fans..
The Cross.. the Cross.
JustCallMeTarzan
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8/9/2010 10:33:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 9:32:24 AM, the-good-teacher wrote:
And your basis for confining it to "world of believers" ?

Read "outline of biblical usage" in the link,
Forget that, you don't know what Strong's is.
lets look at the word in context (this example was provided in the original post)

What, you mean this link - http://www.eliyah.com... that shows the lexicon search result, and no support for your "believers only" interpretation? That link??

If "God so loved the world" ( = everyone) then "Everyone was following Jesus in John 12:19, but we know this was not the case, because the people who made the statement "the Pharisees" were not following Jesus,

This is a terrible example because I'm sure (as you continuously tout yourself) a scholar of biblical knowledge would know that this is a backreference to 3:16 and 4:42 - and allusion to the universal nature of salvation. Further, this is one of the few sections of John that reads as a narrative, and the Pharisees are clearly exaggerating and simply using normal language to do it.

So we know that the word "World" cannot always mean "Everyone"
We know a "world of believers" were following Jesus and Jesus only prayed for those his father gave him and not the world (of non believers) John 17:9

No, no, no... in 17:9, Jesus prays for believers, and not the world meaning everyone including believers and non-believers. What kind of stupid trick do you think you are trying to pull here? That "world" means "only believers" in 3:16 and "world" means "only nonbelievers" in 17:9?? Come on, really? It's very clear that in both cases, "world" means the inhabitants of Earth.

how simple is that ?

That's what I continuously ask myself, but then here you are hitting your head against a brick wall...

Did Jesus tell the nonbelievers their father was Satan ? = Yes !,, and did he call them "vipers" ? = Yes = a fantastic display of love ? = NO.

Ok, and?

So did God so love "everyone" in the world that he sent his only begotten son ?

1 Pet 2:7-9 "Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: where unto also they were appointed. But ye [are] a chosen (elect) generation,(offspring or family) a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light". ("They" were appointed to remain in their disobedience - Believers are Elect). = the world of darkness = world of nonbelievers and the world of light = believers,

= believers and nonbelievers are worlds apart ..

It would be better to quote the whole passage and stop at 2:10... but in any event, this passage is basically a warning to nonbelievers that Jesus is the real deal.

Find out about Strong's and then make an argument it is used by every Christian denomination as a study tool. each word has a unique ID #,
All the best on this subject !

I'm still puzzled why you think Strong's upholds the crazy ideas you are throwing out there. You are reading FAR too much into the texts. Like I said before...

Your reading of "world" as meaning "believers only" requires:

1) We ignore the English translation of world - meaning Earth & the people on it.
2) We ignore the Latin translation of kosmos as mundum, meaning terra firma.
3) We ignore the contextual evidence of Luke as a gospel for all peoples.
4) We ignore the contextual evidence of the other 57 occurrences of kosmos.
5) We ignore the lack of evidence that supports the transition from "world" to "believers only."
the-good-teacher
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8/9/2010 11:38:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm still puzzled why you think Strong's upholds the crazy ideas you are throwing out there. You are reading FAR too much into the texts. Like I said before...

Your reading of "world" as meaning "believers only" requires:

1) We ignore the English translation of world - meaning Earth & the people on it.
2) We ignore the Latin translation of kosmos as mundum, meaning terra firma.
3) We ignore the contextual evidence of Luke as a gospel for all peoples.
4) We ignore the contextual evidence of the other 57 occurrences of kosmos.
5) We ignore the lack of evidence that supports the transition from "world" to "believers only."

I only used a few scriptures where in context the word "world" translated from "Kosmos" = "believers or non believers", (whatever the case may be)

I at no time stated this was the case "whenever the word was used in Scripture" this was your understanding not mine !

Kosmos =
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

What you have failed to grasp thus far is that in the Greek one word can have different meanings,
Example:
Matt 3:5/6 Was all Judaea baptized ?,, why does the scripture say they were when they clearly were not ?,

What if the word "all" in our bible didn't mean "all" = "Absolute all" ? this is one of the reasons why we need Strong's, Matt 3:5/6 "all" = "Pas" = "all types, sorts, kinds, so the scripture in English is misleading,

There are Greek words meaning "absolutely all", in the New Testament, such as the Greek words "hapas", Strong's number "537", and "hekastos", Strong's number "1538".

One of the many reasons why we have non believers and thousands of religions relating to Christianity, is because people do not understand the scriptures relevant to context.
I hope that answered you question !
JustCallMeTarzan
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8/9/2010 1:05:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 11:38:41 AM, the-good-teacher wrote:

I only used a few scriptures where in context the word "world" translated from "Kosmos" = "believers or non believers", (whatever the case may be)

I at no time stated this was the case "whenever the word was used in Scripture" this was your understanding not mine !

Actually, my understanding is that Kosmos is about the order of the whole world, not about a specific subset of the people that inhabit it.

Kosmos = ...

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

This is exactly the point. This definition of Kosmos does not follow from either the usage of the Greek word at the time, from the message of the New Testament as a whole, OR from logic itself.

What you have failed to grasp thus far is that in the Greek one word can have different meanings,
Example:
Matt 3:5/6 Was all Judaea baptized ?,, why does the scripture say they were when they clearly were not ?,

Well considering Matthew says that the people from cities in the whole region, not all the people of the world we coming to be baptized, your point is moot...

What if the word "all" in our bible didn't mean "all" = "Absolute all" ? this is one of the reasons why we need Strong's, Matt 3:5/6 "all" = "Pas" = "all types, sorts, kinds, so the scripture in English is misleading,

Yes, I agree... which is why you need to use a better translation that says people from the whole region, not all people.

There are Greek words meaning "absolutely all", in the New Testament, such as the Greek words "hapas", Strong's number "537", and "hekastos", Strong's number "1538".

Immaterial.

*********************************************************

Ok - here are three very simple reasons why kosmos cannot refer to "believers only" in John 3:16.

1) For 500 years at the time of Christ, kosmos was used in reference to wholes. The whole of the universe, the whole of the earth, the whole of the inhabitants of the earth. Kosmos requires a whole, not a subset of a whole.

2) The New Testament clearly delivers the message that Jesus came for everyone - that he made no distinction between Gentile and Jew. See specifically Galatians 3:8, and in general, the entire Gospel of Luke.

3) If we read the verse as "For God so loved believers only that he sent his son..." then we are delivered with a nonsensical outcome. The Jews didn't believe that Christ was their Messiah, and the Christians didn't believe he was God until after he had risen. So this "believers only" concept would have meant God sent his son for like the 7500-ish people that actually believed. Not for the Jews, and not for the Christians. And this reading is entirely inconsistent with Christian theology. Further, since the crux of Christianity is based on Jesus dying for individuals' sins, there would be no way to convince converts to join if Jesus didn't die for their sins.

Now for some of these -

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Jn 1:29 - a clear message that Jesus was sent to die for everyone's sins.

Jn 3:17 - another clear message - Jesus was sent to be a light to everyone and as a warning before judgment. If you didn't accept him, you would be in trouble. Judgment in this context requires Jesus be a light for EVERYONE, or else the point in sending him is moot.

Jn 6:33 - Jesus here is drawing a parallel between God sustaining the Israelites in the desert and God sustaining all of creation.

Jn 12:47 - A repeat (almost word for word) of 3:17.

1 Co 4:9 - Right... PAUL of all people means "believers only." Can't you see the nonsense in that? Further, this passage very clearly means the entire collection of God's creation - humans and angels alike. Everyone on earth and everyone in heaven.

2 Co 5:19 - In perhaps the worst example you provide, Paul talks about reconciliation in the world. Kosmos here is crystal clear in referring to bringing the world into one order - which requires bringing believers and non-believers together.

******************************************************

So we are left with three obvious reasons why the "believers only" interpretation is wrong, as well as a whole hosts of reasons why "world" as in a whole collection is the proper interpretation of "kosmos...."