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The Negative Effects of Islamophobia

1harderthanyouthink
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5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

When Islamophobia is alive, well, and prevalent, it helps promote a hugely important recruiting point in getting younger Muslims to accept the extremist view. The value of pure fear over reason ends up facilitating the cause for fear. The recruiting point being that the west takes the initiative to be hostile towards Islam - and their "way of life." Bashing Islam as barbaric, irrational, and a threat will only help their cause. Not only is the statement plainly false, they are fighting words that worsen an already hurt situation.

The fact of the matter is - the west needs to take initiative to stop themselves from fostering hatred. Such animosity wages needless violence and can strain relations for decades.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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JJ50
Posts: 2,145
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5/20/2015 9:04:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Like the majority of Christians, Muslims are good, decent people, it is the rotten, extremist element of both faiths, which causes problems!
bulproof
Posts: 29,446
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5/20/2015 9:36:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
The fact of the matter is - the west needs to take initiative to stop themselves from fostering hatred. Such animosity wages needless violence and can strain relations for decades.
Education is the answer.
There is a very real opposition to education within the Islamic tradition.
Marrying off 8yr olds is anathema to caring humans,
Islam is evidence of a lack of care in that instance.
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,615
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5/20/2015 9:43:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 9:36:12 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
The fact of the matter is - the west needs to take initiative to stop themselves from fostering hatred. Such animosity wages needless violence and can strain relations for decades.
Education is the answer.
There is a very real opposition to education within the Islamic tradition.

In some areas of the Middle East, yes.

Marrying off 8yr olds is anathema to caring humans,
Islam is evidence of a lack of care in that instance.

You're not going to force them to adopt something of your ideal. While I disagree with their practice, this is no reason to justify a fear of Muslims becoming terrorists.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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Fly
Posts: 2,619
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5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

When Islamophobia is alive, well, and prevalent, it helps promote a hugely important recruiting point in getting younger Muslims to accept the extremist view. The value of pure fear over reason ends up facilitating the cause for fear. The recruiting point being that the west takes the initiative to be hostile towards Islam - and their "way of life." Bashing Islam as barbaric, irrational, and a threat will only help their cause. Not only is the statement plainly false, they are fighting words that worsen an already hurt situation.

The fact of the matter is - the west needs to take initiative to stop themselves from fostering hatred. Such animosity wages needless violence and can strain relations for decades.
"If you say you pray to God, that makes you normal. But if you say you pray to God through your hair dryer, you are clearly a lunatic. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive."
-Sam Harris
bulproof
Posts: 29,446
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5/20/2015 10:31:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 9:43:02 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 9:36:12 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
The fact of the matter is - the west needs to take initiative to stop themselves from fostering hatred. Such animosity wages needless violence and can strain relations for decades.
Education is the answer.
There is a very real opposition to education within the Islamic tradition.

In some areas of the Middle East, yes.

Marrying off 8yr olds is anathema to caring humans,
Islam is evidence of a lack of care in that instance.

You're not going to force them to adopt something of your ideal. While I disagree with their practice, this is no reason to justify a fear of Muslims becoming terrorists.

I have no fear of muslims.
I have no respect for a religion that justifies child rape.
That includes christianity.
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,615
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5/20/2015 10:34:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:31:42 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 9:43:02 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 9:36:12 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
The fact of the matter is - the west needs to take initiative to stop themselves from fostering hatred. Such animosity wages needless violence and can strain relations for decades.
Education is the answer.
There is a very real opposition to education within the Islamic tradition.

In some areas of the Middle East, yes.

Marrying off 8yr olds is anathema to caring humans,
Islam is evidence of a lack of care in that instance.

You're not going to force them to adopt something of your ideal. While I disagree with their practice, this is no reason to justify a fear of Muslims becoming terrorists.

I have no fear of muslims.
I have no respect for a religion that justifies child rape.
That includes christianity.

You are indeed an anti-theist, and a noted one on DDO. I respect your objection to tenets of these faiths, but again - it does not mean we should not take steps to re-balance relationships between Muslims and other people.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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bulproof
Posts: 29,446
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5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

When Islamophobia is alive, well, and prevalent, it helps promote a hugely important recruiting point in getting younger Muslims to accept the extremist view. The value of pure fear over reason ends up facilitating the cause for fear. The recruiting point being that the west takes the initiative to be hostile towards Islam - and their "way of life." Bashing Islam as barbaric, irrational, and a threat will only help their cause. Not only is the statement plainly false, they are fighting words that worsen an already hurt situation.

The fact of the matter is - the west needs to take initiative to stop themselves from fostering hatred. Such animosity wages needless violence and can strain relations for decades.

Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,615
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5/20/2015 10:39:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Even if there is a substantial enough minority of Muslims that are fundamentalists in the UK and France, that is no reason to push the situation to a boiling point.

For example, people push Muslims away when they call non-Muslim French citizens "natives," when, the vast majority of their Muslim population was born in Europe. Even things as seemingly small as that contribute to the situation, because Muslims are treated as other-worldly.

If they don't like the presence of Muslims, they should reconsider their government as a democracy.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

Even when you consider the fundamentalist population, which is still a minority of the Muslim population, note that not all of them are militant fundamentalists - militant fundamentalists are a minority of a minority.

I may add that Islamic fundamentalism is not the only contributing factor to the levels of animosity. Christian fundamentalists are almost as likely to be hostile towards Muslims as fundamentalist Muslims are likely to be hostile towards Christians.

Lastly, if you worry about the prevalence of fundamentalism - time roots it out by itself.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,615
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5/20/2015 10:41:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

Multiculturalism works both ways.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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bulproof
Posts: 29,446
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5/20/2015 10:46:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:41:24 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

Multiculturalism works both ways.

Only if the other cultures embrace it.
Islam doesn't.
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,615
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5/20/2015 10:48:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:46:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:41:24 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

Multiculturalism works both ways.

Only if the other cultures embrace it.
Islam doesn't.

The west has hardly embraced multiculturalism.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

DDO Risk King
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,615
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5/20/2015 10:51:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:41:24 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

Multiculturalism works both ways.

A survey in Flanders, Belgium stated that 75% of teenagers in Flanders would refuse to have a relationship with a black person, a Muslim, or immigrant, that half want immigration stopped, and 41% distrust anyone from another ethnic background.

52% of Canadians distrust Muslims.

63% of Italians hold an unfavorable view of Muslims.

53% of Greece citizens also hold an unfavorable view of Muslims.

France and the UK have rates of 27% and 26%, respectively, according to the Pew Research Center, but those rates are steadily growing.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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bulproof
Posts: 29,446
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5/20/2015 10:53:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:48:07 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:46:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:41:24 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

Multiculturalism works both ways.

Only if the other cultures embrace it.
Islam doesn't.

The west has hardly embraced multiculturalism.

As a 14yr old I'm sure you actually have a vast experience on which to base that claim.
May I ask are you american?
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw
Fly
Posts: 2,619
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5/20/2015 10:54:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

When Islamophobia is alive, well, and prevalent, it helps promote a hugely important recruiting point in getting younger Muslims to accept the extremist view. The value of pure fear over reason ends up facilitating the cause for fear. The recruiting point being that the west takes the initiative to be hostile towards Islam - and their "way of life." Bashing Islam as barbaric, irrational, and a threat will only help their cause. Not only is the statement plainly false, they are fighting words that worsen an already hurt situation.

The fact of the matter is - the west needs to take initiative to stop themselves from fostering hatred. Such animosity wages needless violence and can strain relations for decades.

Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

That is certainly the expedient answer. I was looking for a more nuanced answer. In fairness to you, there is the sad possibility that there isn't one.
"If you say you pray to God, that makes you normal. But if you say you pray to God through your hair dryer, you are clearly a lunatic. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive."
-Sam Harris
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,615
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5/20/2015 10:54:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:53:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:48:07 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:46:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:41:24 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

Multiculturalism works both ways.

Only if the other cultures embrace it.
Islam doesn't.

The west has hardly embraced multiculturalism.

As a 14yr old I'm sure you actually have a vast experience on which to base that claim.

Irrelevant.

May I ask are you american?

Yes.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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Fly
Posts: 2,619
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5/20/2015 10:56:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:39:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Even if there is a substantial enough minority of Muslims that are fundamentalists in the UK and France, that is no reason to push the situation to a boiling point.

For example, people push Muslims away when they call non-Muslim French citizens "natives," when, the vast majority of their Muslim population was born in Europe. Even things as seemingly small as that contribute to the situation, because Muslims are treated as other-worldly.

If they don't like the presence of Muslims, they should reconsider their government as a democracy.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

Even when you consider the fundamentalist population, which is still a minority of the Muslim population, note that not all of them are militant fundamentalists - militant fundamentalists are a minority of a minority.

I may add that Islamic fundamentalism is not the only contributing factor to the levels of animosity. Christian fundamentalists are almost as likely to be hostile towards Muslims as fundamentalist Muslims are likely to be hostile towards Christians.

Lastly, if you worry about the prevalence of fundamentalism - time roots it out by itself.

This is a non-answer. As I stated above, I am looking for an insightful, nuanced explanation.
"If you say you pray to God, that makes you normal. But if you say you pray to God through your hair dryer, you are clearly a lunatic. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive."
-Sam Harris
bulproof
Posts: 29,446
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5/20/2015 10:57:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:54:07 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

When Islamophobia is alive, well, and prevalent, it helps promote a hugely important recruiting point in getting younger Muslims to accept the extremist view. The value of pure fear over reason ends up facilitating the cause for fear. The recruiting point being that the west takes the initiative to be hostile towards Islam - and their "way of life." Bashing Islam as barbaric, irrational, and a threat will only help their cause. Not only is the statement plainly false, they are fighting words that worsen an already hurt situation.

The fact of the matter is - the west needs to take initiative to stop themselves from fostering hatred. Such animosity wages needless violence and can strain relations for decades.

Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

That is certainly the expedient answer. I was looking for a more nuanced answer. In fairness to you, there is the sad possibility that there isn't one.

I just wonder is there another culture that taxes people who don't believe in that cultures god?
There may be, I am just unaware of it.
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
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5/20/2015 10:59:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:56:03 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:39:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Even if there is a substantial enough minority of Muslims that are fundamentalists in the UK and France, that is no reason to push the situation to a boiling point.

For example, people push Muslims away when they call non-Muslim French citizens "natives," when, the vast majority of their Muslim population was born in Europe. Even things as seemingly small as that contribute to the situation, because Muslims are treated as other-worldly.

If they don't like the presence of Muslims, they should reconsider their government as a democracy.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

Even when you consider the fundamentalist population, which is still a minority of the Muslim population, note that not all of them are militant fundamentalists - militant fundamentalists are a minority of a minority.

I may add that Islamic fundamentalism is not the only contributing factor to the levels of animosity. Christian fundamentalists are almost as likely to be hostile towards Muslims as fundamentalist Muslims are likely to be hostile towards Christians.

Lastly, if you worry about the prevalence of fundamentalism - time roots it out by itself.

This is a non-answer. As I stated above, I am looking for an insightful, nuanced explanation.

Of what has transpired in those countries? It's a simple answer, in my opinion. Muslims are met with hostility for holding different worldviews (which isn't even close to always true), and Muslims respond with hostility. It's a vicious cycle that facilitates hatred, and in some select cases, radicalization - which propels the fear more.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,615
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5/20/2015 11:02:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:59:47 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:56:03 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:39:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Even if there is a substantial enough minority of Muslims that are fundamentalists in the UK and France, that is no reason to push the situation to a boiling point.

For example, people push Muslims away when they call non-Muslim French citizens "natives," when, the vast majority of their Muslim population was born in Europe. Even things as seemingly small as that contribute to the situation, because Muslims are treated as other-worldly.

If they don't like the presence of Muslims, they should reconsider their government as a democracy.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

Even when you consider the fundamentalist population, which is still a minority of the Muslim population, note that not all of them are militant fundamentalists - militant fundamentalists are a minority of a minority.

I may add that Islamic fundamentalism is not the only contributing factor to the levels of animosity. Christian fundamentalists are almost as likely to be hostile towards Muslims as fundamentalist Muslims are likely to be hostile towards Christians.

Lastly, if you worry about the prevalence of fundamentalism - time roots it out by itself.

This is a non-answer. As I stated above, I am looking for an insightful, nuanced explanation.

Of what has transpired in those countries? It's a simple answer, in my opinion. Muslims are met with hostility for holding different worldviews (which isn't even close to always true), and Muslims respond with hostility. It's a vicious cycle that facilitates hatred, and in some select cases, radicalization - which propels the fear more.

And that cycle ends only when both sides promote changes in their relationship.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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bulproof
Posts: 29,446
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5/20/2015 11:06:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:54:57 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:53:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:48:07 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:46:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:41:24 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

Multiculturalism works both ways.

Only if the other cultures embrace it.
Islam doesn't.

The west has hardly embraced multiculturalism.

As a 14yr old I'm sure you actually have a vast experience on which to base that claim.

Irrelevant.
Not irrelevant at all, because as you answered the following question in the affirmative it is obvious that your age and ethnicity predetermine your understanding of multiculturalism. In the rest of the world it generally works quite well. The USA is an ignorant backward society somewhat approximating the culture of the ignorant Islamist culture that you are taught to hate.
May I ask are you american?

Yes.
As I expected.
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw
Fly
Posts: 2,619
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5/20/2015 11:07:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 10:59:47 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:56:03 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:39:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Even if there is a substantial enough minority of Muslims that are fundamentalists in the UK and France, that is no reason to push the situation to a boiling point.

For example, people push Muslims away when they call non-Muslim French citizens "natives," when, the vast majority of their Muslim population was born in Europe. Even things as seemingly small as that contribute to the situation, because Muslims are treated as other-worldly.

If they don't like the presence of Muslims, they should reconsider their government as a democracy.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

Even when you consider the fundamentalist population, which is still a minority of the Muslim population, note that not all of them are militant fundamentalists - militant fundamentalists are a minority of a minority.

I may add that Islamic fundamentalism is not the only contributing factor to the levels of animosity. Christian fundamentalists are almost as likely to be hostile towards Muslims as fundamentalist Muslims are likely to be hostile towards Christians.

Lastly, if you worry about the prevalence of fundamentalism - time roots it out by itself.

This is a non-answer. As I stated above, I am looking for an insightful, nuanced explanation.

Of what has transpired in those countries? It's a simple answer, in my opinion. Muslims are met with hostility for holding different worldviews (which isn't even close to always true), and Muslims respond with hostility. It's a vicious cycle that facilitates hatred, and in some select cases, radicalization - which propels the fear more.

If it's that simple (and I disagree that it is), then here is my simple response:

A people group should not immigrate by choice en masse to a country where they can expect to be met with hostility. I mean, there are PLENTY of majority Muslim countries out there.

This has been... disappointing...
"If you say you pray to God, that makes you normal. But if you say you pray to God through your hair dryer, you are clearly a lunatic. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive."
-Sam Harris
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,615
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5/20/2015 11:08:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 11:06:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:54:57 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:53:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:48:07 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:46:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:41:24 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

Multiculturalism works both ways.

Only if the other cultures embrace it.
Islam doesn't.

The west has hardly embraced multiculturalism.

As a 14yr old I'm sure you actually have a vast experience on which to base that claim.

Irrelevant.
Not irrelevant at all, because as you answered the following question in the affirmative it is obvious that your age and ethnicity predetermine your understanding of multiculturalism. In the rest of the world it generally works quite well. The USA is an ignorant backward society somewhat approximating the culture of the ignorant Islamist culture that you are taught to hate.

It is evident that other countries hate Muslims too.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,644
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5/20/2015 11:08:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

When Islamophobia is alive, well, and prevalent, it helps promote a hugely important recruiting point in getting younger Muslims to accept the extremist view. The value of pure fear over reason ends up facilitating the cause for fear. The recruiting point being that the west takes the initiative to be hostile towards Islam - and their "way of life." Bashing Islam as barbaric, irrational, and a threat will only help their cause. Not only is the statement plainly false, they are fighting words that worsen an already hurt situation.

The fact of the matter is - the west needs to take initiative to stop themselves from fostering hatred. Such animosity wages needless violence and can strain relations for decades.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali was born into a Muslim family, had her genitals mutilated at the age of 5 and was forced to marry by her father. She says that although there certainly are women who like to wear Burka's for whatever reason, there are millions of Muslim who don't, yet are forced to wear it.

Her plan for Islamic reformation:

1. Muslims must change their attitude towards the Quran and Muhammad. The Quran is not a drivers manual and Muhammad cannot be the perfect role model for all humanity, Muslims must give up these ideals.

2.Muslims must focus more on life before death rather than life after death.

3. Muslims must give up Sharia Law completely.

4. Muslim individuals must stop telling others how to live their lives (Commanding Right, Forbidding Law) and especially stop punishing harshly those they believe do not follow.

5. Jihad holy war to be replaced with holy peace.

She states that the cancer of Islam is a direct assault on liberal ideals, on the freedoms of humans and humans themselves, that it divides the world into "us and them" and whoever "them" are, must be killed. She says we must all stand up against the oppression of Islam and it's extremism.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
1harderthanyouthink
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5/20/2015 11:14:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 11:07:55 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:59:47 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:56:03 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:39:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Even if there is a substantial enough minority of Muslims that are fundamentalists in the UK and France, that is no reason to push the situation to a boiling point.

For example, people push Muslims away when they call non-Muslim French citizens "natives," when, the vast majority of their Muslim population was born in Europe. Even things as seemingly small as that contribute to the situation, because Muslims are treated as other-worldly.

If they don't like the presence of Muslims, they should reconsider their government as a democracy.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

Even when you consider the fundamentalist population, which is still a minority of the Muslim population, note that not all of them are militant fundamentalists - militant fundamentalists are a minority of a minority.

I may add that Islamic fundamentalism is not the only contributing factor to the levels of animosity. Christian fundamentalists are almost as likely to be hostile towards Muslims as fundamentalist Muslims are likely to be hostile towards Christians.

Lastly, if you worry about the prevalence of fundamentalism - time roots it out by itself.

This is a non-answer. As I stated above, I am looking for an insightful, nuanced explanation.

Of what has transpired in those countries? It's a simple answer, in my opinion. Muslims are met with hostility for holding different worldviews (which isn't even close to always true), and Muslims respond with hostility. It's a vicious cycle that facilitates hatred, and in some select cases, radicalization - which propels the fear more.

If it's that simple (and I disagree that it is), then here is my simple response:

A people group should not immigrate by choice en masse to a country where they can expect to be met with hostility. I mean, there are PLENTY of majority Muslim countries out there.

That's reasonable, but that shouldn't excuse the hostility people in those countries display towards immigrants.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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bulproof
Posts: 29,446
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5/20/2015 11:14:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 11:08:23 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 11:06:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:54:57 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:53:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:48:07 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:46:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:41:24 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

Multiculturalism works both ways.

Only if the other cultures embrace it.
Islam doesn't.

The west has hardly embraced multiculturalism.

As a 14yr old I'm sure you actually have a vast experience on which to base that claim.

Irrelevant.
Not irrelevant at all, because as you answered the following question in the affirmative it is obvious that your age and ethnicity predetermine your understanding of multiculturalism. In the rest of the world it generally works quite well. The USA is an ignorant backward society somewhat approximating the culture of the ignorant Islamist culture that you are taught to hate.

It is evident that other countries hate Muslims too.

And as a 14yr old I would expect nothing more.
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,615
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5/20/2015 11:16:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 11:14:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 11:08:23 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 11:06:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:54:57 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:53:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:48:07 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
The west has hardly embraced multiculturalism.

As a 14yr old I'm sure you actually have a vast experience on which to base that claim.

Irrelevant.
Not irrelevant at all, because as you answered the following question in the affirmative it is obvious that your age and ethnicity predetermine your understanding of multiculturalism. In the rest of the world it generally works quite well. The USA is an ignorant backward society somewhat approximating the culture of the ignorant Islamist culture that you are taught to hate.

It is evident that other countries hate Muslims too.

And as a 14yr old I would expect nothing more.

You should stop using my age to dismiss me.
"It's the PUPPY IN THE SKY!" -TBR's kid

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Fly
Posts: 2,619
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5/20/2015 11:16:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 11:06:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:54:57 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:53:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:48:07 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:46:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:41:24 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:34:54 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Perhaps because multiculturalism and acceptance of differences is anathema to the Islamic culture?

Multiculturalism works both ways.

Only if the other cultures embrace it.
Islam doesn't.

The west has hardly embraced multiculturalism.

As a 14yr old I'm sure you actually have a vast experience on which to base that claim.

Irrelevant.
Not irrelevant at all, because as you answered the following question in the affirmative it is obvious that your age and ethnicity predetermine your understanding of multiculturalism. In the rest of the world it generally works quite well. The USA is an ignorant backward society somewhat approximating the culture of the ignorant Islamist culture that you are taught to hate.
May I ask are you american?

No, I would agree that age is largely irrelevant-- there are plenty of full grown adults on here who pontificate well beyond their knowledge base.

Now, how do you reconcile multiculturalism working quite well elsewhere with the intense friction with Muslim immigrants?

Yes.
As I expected.
"If you say you pray to God, that makes you normal. But if you say you pray to God through your hair dryer, you are clearly a lunatic. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive."
-Sam Harris
bulproof
Posts: 29,446
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5/20/2015 11:18:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 11:07:55 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:59:47 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:56:03 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:39:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Even if there is a substantial enough minority of Muslims that are fundamentalists in the UK and France, that is no reason to push the situation to a boiling point.

For example, people push Muslims away when they call non-Muslim French citizens "natives," when, the vast majority of their Muslim population was born in Europe. Even things as seemingly small as that contribute to the situation, because Muslims are treated as other-worldly.

If they don't like the presence of Muslims, they should reconsider their government as a democracy.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

Even when you consider the fundamentalist population, which is still a minority of the Muslim population, note that not all of them are militant fundamentalists - militant fundamentalists are a minority of a minority.

I may add that Islamic fundamentalism is not the only contributing factor to the levels of animosity. Christian fundamentalists are almost as likely to be hostile towards Muslims as fundamentalist Muslims are likely to be hostile towards Christians.

Lastly, if you worry about the prevalence of fundamentalism - time roots it out by itself.

This is a non-answer. As I stated above, I am looking for an insightful, nuanced explanation.

Of what has transpired in those countries? It's a simple answer, in my opinion. Muslims are met with hostility for holding different worldviews (which isn't even close to always true), and Muslims respond with hostility. It's a vicious cycle that facilitates hatred, and in some select cases, radicalization - which propels the fear more.

If it's that simple (and I disagree that it is), then here is my simple response:

A people group should not immigrate by choice en masse to a country where they can expect to be met with hostility. I mean, there are PLENTY of majority Muslim countries out there.

This has been... disappointing...

Yes I would much rather take my Sunni family from a place where we are persecuted to an islamic country where we are persecuted.
I have an idea, I'm gonna bust a gut to get my family to a country that accepts us for who we are.
Yeah not america.
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw
Fly
Posts: 2,619
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5/20/2015 11:19:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2015 11:14:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 11:07:55 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:59:47 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:56:03 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:39:09 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 10:18:59 AM, Fly wrote:
At 5/20/2015 8:51:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
There's a growing concern among westerners that Muslims are more likely to commit violent acts than people of other religions. According to the Pew Research Center, US 62% and 53% of US citizens are concerned about Islamic extremism in foreign land and domestically, respectively. This is way up from 2011, where both of those stats reached a low of 37% and 36%, respectively. 67% also said that ISIS is a major, direct threat to the US. None too surprisingly, there's a vast difference in worry among parties - http://www.people-press.org... - that should come as no surprise. And lastly, 50% of polled US citizens said that Islam is more likely to encourage violence. An odd stat, but unsurprising nonetheless, said that those with higher education were less likely to say Islam is more likely to encourage violence: http://www.people-press.org....

This is good to keep in mind. Two things have to be done about this - westerners (because it isn't just the US, it is also very prevalent, if not more so, in France; and it is also prevalent in countries such as Italy and the UK) have to be more educated about other cultures to understand that the vast majority of Muslims are not militant extremists, and Muslims have to help them come to that conclusion by openly condemning every militant group en masse.

I have a question on this issue-- both England and France have both adopted an attitude of multiculturalism and general acceptance of all peoples. As a result, those two countries have very large Muslim immigrant populations. Now, both countries are feeling the blowback of fundamentalist Islam and seem to regret that they have such large Muslim populations.

Even if there is a substantial enough minority of Muslims that are fundamentalists in the UK and France, that is no reason to push the situation to a boiling point.

For example, people push Muslims away when they call non-Muslim French citizens "natives," when, the vast majority of their Muslim population was born in Europe. Even things as seemingly small as that contribute to the situation, because Muslims are treated as other-worldly.

If they don't like the presence of Muslims, they should reconsider their government as a democracy.

Can you explain what has transpired in those countries?

Even when you consider the fundamentalist population, which is still a minority of the Muslim population, note that not all of them are militant fundamentalists - militant fundamentalists are a minority of a minority.

I may add that Islamic fundamentalism is not the only contributing factor to the levels of animosity. Christian fundamentalists are almost as likely to be hostile towards Muslims as fundamentalist Muslims are likely to be hostile towards Christians.

Lastly, if you worry about the prevalence of fundamentalism - time roots it out by itself.

This is a non-answer. As I stated above, I am looking for an insightful, nuanced explanation.

Of what has transpired in those countries? It's a simple answer, in my opinion. Muslims are met with hostility for holding different worldviews (which isn't even close to always true), and Muslims respond with hostility. It's a vicious cycle that facilitates hatred, and in some select cases, radicalization - which propels the fear more.

If it's that simple (and I disagree that it is), then here is my simple response:

A people group should not immigrate by choice en masse to a country where they can expect to be met with hostility. I mean, there are PLENTY of majority Muslim countries out there.

That's reasonable, but that shouldn't excuse the hostility people in those countries display towards immigrants.

Would it be more hostile or less hostile to refuse them permission to enter the country based upon their religious affiliation?
"If you say you pray to God, that makes you normal. But if you say you pray to God through your hair dryer, you are clearly a lunatic. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive."
-Sam Harris