Total Posts:12|Showing Posts:1-12
Jump to topic:

Bakunin on "Original Sin"

Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2010 9:29:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Jehovah, who of all the good gods adored by men was certainly the most jealous, the most vain, the most ferocious, the most unjust, the most bloodthirsty, the most despotic, and the most hostile to human dignity and liberty-Jehovah had just created Adam and Eve, to satisfy we know not what caprice; no doubt to while away his time, which must weigh heavy on his hands in his eternal egoistic solitude, or that he might have some new slaves. He generously placed at their disposal the whole earth, with all its fruits and animals, and set but a single limit to this complete enjoyment. He expressly forbade them from touching the fruit of the tree of knowledge. He wished, therefore, that man, destitute of all understanding of himself, should remain an eternal beast, ever on all-fours before the eternal God, his creator and his master. But here steps in Satan, the eternal rebel, the first freethinker and the emancipator of worlds. He makes man ashamed of his bestial ignorance and obedience; he emancipates him, stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity, in urging him to disobey and eat of the fruit of knowledge.

We know what followed. The good God, whose foresight, which is one of the divine faculties, should have warned him of what would happen, flew into a terrible and ridiculous rage; he cursed Satan, man, and the world created by himself, striking himself so to speak in his own creation, as children do when they get angry; and, not content with smiting our ancestors themselves, he cursed them in all the generations to come, innocent of the crime committed by their forefathers. Our Catholic and Protestant theologians look upon that as very profound and very just, precisely because it is monstrously iniquitous and absurd. Then, remembering that he was not only a God of vengeance and wrath, but also a God of love, after having tormented the existence of a few milliards of poor human beings and condemned them to an eternal hell, he took pity on the rest, and, to save them and reconcile his eternal and divine love with his eternal and divine anger, always greedy for victims and blood, he sent into the world, as an expiatory victim, his only son, that he might be killed by men. That is called the mystery of the Redemption, the basis of all the Christian religions. Still, if the divine Savior had saved the human world! But no; in the paradise promised by Christ, as we know, such being the formal announcement, the elect will number very few. The rest, the immense majority of the generations present and to come, will burn eternally in hell. In the meantime, to console us, God, ever just, ever good, hands over the earth to the government of the Napoleon Thirds, of the William Firsts, of the Ferdinands of Austria, and of the Alexanders of all the Russias.

Such are the absurd tales that are told and the monstrous doctrines that are taught, in the full light of the nineteenth century, in all the public schools of Europe, at the express command of the government. They call this civilizing the people! Is it not plain that all these governments are systematic poisoners, interested stupefies of the masses?

I have wandered from my subject, because anger gets hold of me whenever I think of the base and criminal means which they employ to keep the nations in perpetual slavery, undoubtedly that they may be the better able to fleece them. Of what consequence are the crimes of all the Tropmanns in the world compared with this crime of treason against humanity committed daily, in broad day, over the whole surface of the civilized world, by those who dare to call themselves the guardians and the fathers of the people? I return to the myth of original sin.

God admitted that Satan was right; he recognized that the devil did not deceive Adam and Eve in promising them knowledge and liberty as a reward for the act of disobedience which he bad induced them to commit; for, immediately they had eaten of the forbidden fruit, God himself said (see Bible): 'Behold, the man is become as one of the gods, to know good and evil; prevent him, therefore, from eating of the fruit of eternal life, lest he become immortal like Ourselves."

Let us disregard now the fabulous portion of this myth and consider its true meaning, which is very clear. Man has emancipated himself; he has separated himself from animality and constituted himself a man; he has begun his distinctively human history and development by an act of disobedience and science-that is, by rebellion and by thought.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2010 11:28:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Man created god in his own image.

Man created the god he wanted.

Says a great deal about man.

Also what a shower of idiots they were to create something so monstrous and then worship.
Anarcho
Posts: 887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/9/2010 12:10:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Was that from "God and the State"?
InsertNameHere wrote: "If we evolved from apes then why are apes still around?

This is semi-serious btw. It's something that seems strange to me. You'd think that entire species would cease to exist if other ones evolved from them."

Anarcho wrote: *facepalm*
Anarcho
Posts: 887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/9/2010 12:17:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 12:12:32 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/9/2010 12:10:59 AM, Anarcho wrote:
Was that from "God and the State"?

Of course you would know that. :P

Well gee I'm only an Anarchist and Bakunin is known as the "father of Anarchism" so I should know his most famous book. :P
InsertNameHere wrote: "If we evolved from apes then why are apes still around?

This is semi-serious btw. It's something that seems strange to me. You'd think that entire species would cease to exist if other ones evolved from them."

Anarcho wrote: *facepalm*
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/9/2010 9:34:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 12:10:59 AM, Anarcho wrote:
Was that from "God and the State"?

Yes.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/9/2010 12:23:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
So you openly worship and extol Satan while debasing and attempting to demean god
I don't know why but I find this quote fitting
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell. -C.S. Lewis
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/9/2010 12:30:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Would be cool if the OP could get the thread going with some points from his own perspective, rather than just a humongous portion of copypasta.

At 8/8/2010 11:24:29 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 8/8/2010 10:46:10 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
TL;DR... Hmm...

Then why bother commenting?

Why bother commenting merely to ask why someone else has bothered? I don't know why I bother myself sometimes :)
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/9/2010 2:33:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 12:23:01 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
So you openly worship and extol Satan while debasing and attempting to demean god

No. Bakunin is saying that God doesn't exist and that if he did that he would not be worthy of praise and would in fact be the enemy of man, not his benefactor.

I don't know why but I find this quote fitting
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell. -C.S. Lewis

Completely agreed. Also, no man can increase God's glory by worshipping him than a lunatic can make the rain fall by doing a special dance.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran