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Labels are Useless

Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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5/25/2015 7:56:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I have come to the decision a while ago to stop, or at the very least greatly reduce, the usage of self-labels. They only serve for the purpose of people sticking you into a compartment without knowing the first thing about you. They barely say anything about what you are even if they are descriptive. A person self-identifying as a "Christian" tells me very little about their beliefs - on this forum alone I don't think I have ever seen two Christians share the same theology, and the differences are usually immense.

Similarly a large spread is seen for Muslims, Atheists, Jews, Agnostics, etc. etc. Religious labels are hopeless at telling people about yourself.

What is worse is that it sticks you into an ideological "camp", thus making you tend to become partisan in adopting said camps beliefs and policies etc. I myself am largely liberal in my values of society, but I would be strongly opposed to adopting all the values of my Liberal Democrat Party in the UK. My values and beliefs come first, and if they so-happen to fall within a general label, then so be it, but I will not identify myself as a said label.

Thus:

I believe a God (traditionally defined as a personal creator) does not exist, but I will not identify as an atheist
I belief secular methodologies are most effective, but I will not identify as a secularist
I belief life has no inherent value, and essentialism/existentialism philosophies say nothing on ontology - but I will not identify as an existential nihilist
I believe morality is noncognitive, and fictionalism/emotivism is the best explanation for our behaviour - but I will not identify as a moral nihilist

Etc. etc.

Drop your labels - and stop responding to people who attempt to generalise such labels.
twocupcakes
Posts: 3,204
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5/25/2015 8:02:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 7:56:38 PM, Envisage wrote:
I have come to the decision a while ago to stop, or at the very least greatly reduce, the usage of self-labels. They only serve for the purpose of people sticking you into a compartment without knowing the first thing about you. They barely say anything about what you are even if they are descriptive. A person self-identifying as a "Christian" tells me very little about their beliefs - on this forum alone I don't think I have ever seen two Christians share the same theology, and the differences are usually immense.

Similarly a large spread is seen for Muslims, Atheists, Jews, Agnostics, etc. etc. Religious labels are hopeless at telling people about yourself.

What is worse is that it sticks you into an ideological "camp", thus making you tend to become partisan in adopting said camps beliefs and policies etc. I myself am largely liberal in my values of society, but I would be strongly opposed to adopting all the values of my Liberal Democrat Party in the UK. My values and beliefs come first, and if they so-happen to fall within a general label, then so be it, but I will not identify myself as a said label.

Thus:

I believe a God (traditionally defined as a personal creator) does not exist, but I will not identify as an atheist
I belief secular methodologies are most effective, but I will not identify as a secularist
I belief life has no inherent value, and essentialism/existentialism philosophies say nothing on ontology - but I will not identify as an existential nihilist
I believe morality is noncognitive, and fictionalism/emotivism is the best explanation for our behaviour - but I will not identify as a moral nihilist

Etc. etc.

Drop your labels - and stop responding to people who attempt to generalise such labels.

I agree. I don't believe in God but do not label myself as an Atheist because I hate when people make generalizations about atheists.

I especially get annoyed when people say that all atheists believe 100% that there is no God.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,869
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5/25/2015 8:18:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think that labels tend to lead to a short circuit in the brain, bypassing all actual analysis and understanding to reach a conditioned response which usually amounts to either 'Yay! We're the same!' or 'Ew! You're icky and different'. They're only really useful for demographic purposes.
"See now Oblivion shimmering all around us, its very tranquility deadlier than tempest. How little all our keels have troubled it. Time in its deeps swims like a monstrous whale; and, like a whale, feeds on the littlest things -- small tunes and little unskilled songs of the olden, golden evenings -- and anon turneth whale-like to overthrow whole ships."
- Lord Dunsany -

"We enjoy, we see nothing by direct vision; but only by reflection, and in anatomical dismemberment."
- Thomas Carlyle -
n7
Posts: 1,450
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5/25/2015 8:21:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I see you've adopted the position of No-nameism.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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5/25/2015 8:25:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 8:21:59 PM, n7 wrote:
I see you've adopted the position of No-nameism.

... I hate you. Time to find some fellow no-nameists and start up a group...
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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5/25/2015 8:35:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 7:56:38 PM, Envisage wrote:
Without labels and time management, I'm sure I would've failed this year.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
bulproof
Posts: 27,525
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5/25/2015 8:47:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Especially the ones where the sticky stuff just isn't sticky.
Heaven is just a tall building away.
Me
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,382
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5/25/2015 9:02:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 7:56:38 PM, Envisage wrote:
I have come to the decision a while ago to stop, or at the very least greatly reduce, the usage of self-labels. They only serve for the purpose of people sticking you into a compartment without knowing the first thing about you. They barely say anything about what you are even if they are descriptive. A person self-identifying as a "Christian" tells me very little about their beliefs - on this forum alone I don't think I have ever seen two Christians share the same theology, and the differences are usually immense.

Similarly a large spread is seen for Muslims, Atheists, Jews, Agnostics, etc. etc. Religious labels are hopeless at telling people about yourself.

What is worse is that it sticks you into an ideological "camp", thus making you tend to become partisan in adopting said camps beliefs and policies etc. I myself am largely liberal in my values of society, but I would be strongly opposed to adopting all the values of my Liberal Democrat Party in the UK. My values and beliefs come first, and if they so-happen to fall within a general label, then so be it, but I will not identify myself as a said label.

Thus:

I believe a God (traditionally defined as a personal creator) does not exist, but I will not identify as an atheist
I belief secular methodologies are most effective, but I will not identify as a secularist
I belief life has no inherent value, and essentialism/existentialism philosophies say nothing on ontology - but I will not identify as an existential nihilist
I believe morality is noncognitive, and fictionalism/emotivism is the best explanation for our behaviour - but I will not identify as a moral nihilist

Etc. etc.

Drop your labels - and stop responding to people who attempt to generalise such labels.

I am coming to this same conclusion. although currently, I tend to self label myself as a 'non believer'.

@two cupcakes - I too find myself being irritated by the assertion that I believe no gods exists simply because Individuals understand I am an atheist.
If Gravity were true, and Darwinism true - both of which are taught as true to children, then we would evolve as pancake people. - Edlvsjd

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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5/25/2015 9:02:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I do agree, and I use the same philosophy in everyday life when asked to clarify my religious position. I do however find a particular value in the debate over how atheism should be defined as it brings up important questions/points such as the difference between the propositions "God exists" vs. "God does not exist", which one makes more sense to address, and the difference between not accepting a claim vs. accepting the opposite claim.

Of course when someone recognizes that they cannot support the burden they gave them-self when making a claim they will go to great lengths to ensure they do not understand any of this, but we can still try.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/26/2015 2:44:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I believe in God and also do not believe in God.
People tend to label me self contradictory because they cannot understand how someone can believe in something as well as not believe in it.
Adam_Godzilla
Posts: 2,487
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5/26/2015 6:12:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 7:56:38 PM, Envisage wrote:
I have come to the decision a while ago to stop, or at the very least greatly reduce, the usage of self-labels. They only serve for the purpose of people sticking you into a compartment without knowing the first thing about you. They barely say anything about what you are even if they are descriptive. A person self-identifying as a "Christian" tells me very little about their beliefs - on this forum alone I don't think I have ever seen two Christians share the same theology, and the differences are usually immense.

Similarly a large spread is seen for Muslims, Atheists, Jews, Agnostics, etc. etc. Religious labels are hopeless at telling people about yourself.

What is worse is that it sticks you into an ideological "camp", thus making you tend to become partisan in adopting said camps beliefs and policies etc. I myself am largely liberal in my values of society, but I would be strongly opposed to adopting all the values of my Liberal Democrat Party in the UK. My values and beliefs come first, and if they so-happen to fall within a general label, then so be it, but I will not identify myself as a said label.

Thus:

I believe a God (traditionally defined as a personal creator) does not exist, but I will not identify as an atheist
I belief secular methodologies are most effective, but I will not identify as a secularist
I belief life has no inherent value, and essentialism/existentialism philosophies say nothing on ontology - but I will not identify as an existential nihilist
I believe morality is noncognitive, and fictionalism/emotivism is the best explanation for our behaviour - but I will not identify as a moral nihilist

Etc. etc.

Drop your labels - and stop responding to people who attempt to generalise such labels.

I agree both ways. Labels clump together people indefinitely, which is not useful. But I think generalisation is important for self identity with crap like "I am human, I am this ethnic group or that religion", its a necessary evil as if you truly broke someone down to individual bits, you wouldn't be able to tell who you even are.

It's funny because I hate labels and nationalism and all that. But I realise I always have a substitute label for myself just in case (like if I'm not african then I'm at least human).
New episode of OUTSIDERS: http://www.debate.org...
Episode 4 - They walk among us
SNP1
Posts: 2,428
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5/26/2015 6:12:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 2:44:49 AM, Skyangel wrote:
I believe in God and also do not believe in God.
People tend to label me self contradictory because they cannot understand how someone can believe in something as well as not believe in it.

Law of Non-Contradiction.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,877
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5/26/2015 7:05:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2015 7:56:38 PM, Envisage wrote:
I have come to the decision a while ago to stop, or at the very least greatly reduce, the usage of self-labels. They only serve for the purpose of people sticking you into a compartment without knowing the first thing about you. They barely say anything about what you are even if they are descriptive. A person self-identifying as a "Christian" tells me very little about their beliefs - on this forum alone I don't think I have ever seen two Christians share the same theology, and the differences are usually immense.


Similarly a large spread is seen for Muslims, Atheists, Jews, Agnostics, etc. etc. Religious labels are hopeless at telling people about yourself.

What is worse is that it sticks you into an ideological "camp", thus making you tend to become partisan in adopting said camps beliefs and policies etc. I myself am largely liberal in my values of society, but I would be strongly opposed to adopting all the values of my Liberal Democrat Party in the UK. My values and beliefs come first, and if they so-happen to fall within a general label, then so be it, but I will not identify myself as a said label.

Thus:

I believe a God (traditionally defined as a personal creator) does not exist, but I will not identify as an atheist
I belief secular methodologies are most effective, but I will not identify as a secularist
I belief life has no inherent value, and essentialism/existentialism philosophies say nothing on ontology - but I will not identify as an existential nihilist
I believe morality is noncognitive, and fictionalism/emotivism is the best explanation for our behaviour - but I will not identify as a moral nihilist

Etc. etc.

Drop your labels - and stop responding to people who attempt to generalise such labels.

Labels are useless except for when ones lifestyle, thinking and actions undergird that label, then the content becomes the label. Most Atheists I've met think and act like an atheist (one who rejects the existence of God) but maybe a few of them more like "agnostic"-ish.
Perhaps a better description for some Atheists would fit somewhere in here..
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...(philosophy)

This appears to undergird the basis of Atheist belief quite well.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,877
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5/26/2015 7:12:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Despite the large number of philosophical schools and subtle nuances between many,[1][2][3] all philosophies are said to fall into one of two primary categories, which are defined in contrast to each other: Idealism, and materialism.[a] The basic proposition of these two categories pertains to the nature of reality, and the primary distinction between them is the way they answer two fundamental questions: "what does reality consist of" and "how does it originate?" To idealists, spirit or mind or the objects of mind (ideas) are primary, and matter secondary. To materialists, matter is primary, and mind or spirit or ideas are secondary, the product of matter acting upon matter
Wiki.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,644
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5/26/2015 9:41:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 7:12:37 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Despite the large number of philosophical schools and subtle nuances between many,[1][2][3] all philosophies are said to fall into one of two primary categories, which are defined in contrast to each other: Idealism, and materialism.[a] The basic proposition of these two categories pertains to the nature of reality, and the primary distinction between them is the way they answer two fundamental questions: "what does reality consist of" and "how does it originate?" To idealists, spirit or mind or the objects of mind (ideas) are primary, and matter secondary. To materialists, matter is primary, and mind or spirit or ideas are secondary, the product of matter acting upon matter
Wiki.

You keep talking about spirit being part of reality, so why have you not yet explained to us all what it takes to live the spiritual lifestyle?

http://www.debate.org...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/27/2015 4:42:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 6:12:49 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 5/26/2015 2:44:49 AM, Skyangel wrote:
I believe in God and also do not believe in God.
People tend to label me self contradictory because they cannot understand how someone can believe in something as well as not believe in it.

Law of Non-Contradiction.

It's a Paradox.