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Convince an Atheist.

PinValentine
Posts: 16
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5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts
PinValentine
Posts: 16
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5/26/2015 4:27:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

I must add that I am an Atheist to stay any confusion.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts
Adam_Godzilla
Posts: 2,487
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5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.
New episode of OUTSIDERS: http://www.debate.org...
Episode 4 - They walk among us
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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5/26/2015 4:48:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

This shows Envisage is pretty much right there http://www.debate.org..., in arguing that Labels are Useless (ofcourse we waste much time in label fitting instead of clicking the need that is often very much vivid)
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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5/26/2015 4:51:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Your confusing Atheism with faith.

Your argument is really equivocation. By your argument, every single atheist in the world that I know of or have met are agnostic, including Richard Dawkins.

In reality a/Gnosticism is how much knowledge you claim to have if Gods, and atheism is whether you have a belief in God. So they're sort of different things, and certainly applied differently.
PinValentine
Posts: 16
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5/26/2015 5:11:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:51:26 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Your confusing Atheism with faith.

Your argument is really equivocation. By your argument, every single atheist in the world that I know of or have met are agnostic, including Richard Dawkins.

In reality a/Gnosticism is how much knowledge you claim to have if Gods, and atheism is whether you have a belief in God. So they're sort of different things, and certainly applied differently.

Well said.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts
Adam_Godzilla
Posts: 2,487
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5/26/2015 5:43:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:51:26 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Your confusing Atheism with faith.

Your argument is really equivocation. By your argument, every single atheist in the world that I know of or have met are agnostic, including Richard Dawkins.

In reality a/Gnosticism is how much knowledge you claim to have if Gods, and atheism is whether you have a belief in God. So they're sort of different things, and certainly applied differently.

I wasn't being clear enough. What I mean is that agnosticism is the open mindedness one has in interpreting god's existence. They do not take a stance on the idea of whether god exists. An atheist takes the stance that god does not exist.

The definitions of both are self explanatory:
Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
Agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
(from google)

PinValentine says that she is willing to accept that god could exist and claims that if someone proves it to her, she'll somehow be convinced. This is irrational as noone on a forum site can somehow magically prove the existence of god. Her request shows doubt on the existence of god, thus, she's really an agnostic not an atheist.

Dazz says we shouldn't put labels on ourselves which I believe is a fair point but I think only really applies if you're famous. Who cares if you're atheist or agnostic on the internet? But you might get backlash if you're a well known person.
New episode of OUTSIDERS: http://www.debate.org...
Episode 4 - They walk among us
tejretics
Posts: 6,086
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5/26/2015 5:59:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Why not? You're portraying atheists in negative light.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
Posts: 6,086
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5/26/2015 6:00:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 5:43:38 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:51:26 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Your confusing Atheism with faith.

Your argument is really equivocation. By your argument, every single atheist in the world that I know of or have met are agnostic, including Richard Dawkins.

In reality a/Gnosticism is how much knowledge you claim to have if Gods, and atheism is whether you have a belief in God. So they're sort of different things, and certainly applied differently.

I wasn't being clear enough. What I mean is that agnosticism is the open mindedness one has in interpreting god's existence. They do not take a stance on the idea of whether god exists. An atheist takes the stance that god does not exist.

The definitions of both are self explanatory:
Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Yes, but can *want* to be convinced ...

Agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
(from google)

PinValentine says that she is willing to accept that god could exist and claims that if someone proves it to her, she'll somehow be convinced. This is irrational as noone on a forum site can somehow magically prove the existence of god. Her request shows doubt on the existence of god, thus, she's really an agnostic not an atheist.

Dazz says we shouldn't put labels on ourselves which I believe is a fair point but I think only really applies if you're famous. Who cares if you're atheist or agnostic on the internet? But you might get backlash if you're a well known person.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Adam_Godzilla
Posts: 2,487
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5/26/2015 6:20:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 5:59:46 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Why not? You're portraying atheists in negative light.

I believe there should be a distinction between atheists and well, non-atheists. Those who have chosen not to believe in god but who accept god if there's proof I believe are agnostics. Atheists absolutely don't believe in a god.

The problem is there's no proper dictionary distinction. Both agnostic and atheists are not mutually exclusive terms. But I've made a distinction personally. I do think there should be a distinction between an agnostic who neither believes nor disbelieves in god and someone who disbelieves in god but only for the moment (or until proof comes along). It's unlikely proof comes along and thus that conviction is what makes an atheist an atheist.
New episode of OUTSIDERS: http://www.debate.org...
Episode 4 - They walk among us
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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5/26/2015 7:04:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 5:43:38 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:51:26 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Your confusing Atheism with faith.

Your argument is really equivocation. By your argument, every single atheist in the world that I know of or have met are agnostic, including Richard Dawkins.

In reality a/Gnosticism is how much knowledge you claim to have if Gods, and atheism is whether you have a belief in God. So they're sort of different things, and certainly applied differently.

I wasn't being clear enough. What I mean is that agnosticism is the open mindedness one has in interpreting god's existence. They do not take a stance on the idea of whether god exists. An atheist takes the stance that god does not exist.

The definitions of both are self explanatory:
Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
Agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
(from google)

PinValentine says that she is willing to accept that god could exist and claims that if someone proves it to her, she'll somehow be convinced. This is irrational as noone on a forum site can somehow magically prove the existence of god. Her request shows doubt on the existence of god, thus, she's really an agnostic not an atheist.

Dazz says we shouldn't put labels on ourselves which I believe is a fair point but I think only really applies if you're famous. Who cares if you're atheist or agnostic on the internet? But you might get backlash if you're a well known person.

You were being pretty clear. It's really equivocation. You may not have the belief in God, but can remain open minded. Or even be pretty convinced God doesn't exist and still be open minded.

The problem is simply equivocation. You believe atheism is different from how it is used by atheists in order to argue peopl aren't really atheist; for whatever reason.

You can claim people who remain open are agnostic, but that doesn't actually change what any of us believe, and just means there have never really been many atheists in the way you define it.

The bottom line is; if you do not believe in God, your an atheist, how sure you are about his non existence is the agnostic scale. You can be an agnostic theist; you can believe but be unsure as to the truth, or a gnostic atheist, in that you do not believe in God and are pretty sure he doesn't exist.

It doesn't matter what you call me, I'll still not believe God exists (atheist) but remain open to the possibility of his existence when evidence is provided. As most atheists are.

I don't quite know what the problem is with this is; do you want to redefine atheism so it's irrational and then claim there are not really any atheists?
Legendary_Houp
Posts: 56
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5/26/2015 7:53:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

That's bold. I try to be like that as much as I can. It's a noble way to look at things.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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5/26/2015 8:16:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 6:20:52 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 5:59:46 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Why not? You're portraying atheists in negative light.

I believe there should be a distinction between atheists and well, non-atheists. Those who have chosen not to believe in god but who accept god if there's proof I believe are agnostics. Atheists absolutely don't believe in a god.

The problem is there's no proper dictionary distinction. Both agnostic and atheists are not mutually exclusive terms. But I've made a distinction personally. I do think there should be a distinction between an agnostic who neither believes nor disbelieves in god and someone who disbelieves in god but only for the moment (or until proof comes along). It's unlikely proof comes along and thus that conviction is what makes an atheist an atheist.

You can be an atheist and an agnostic at the same time (and most atheists are) just like you can be Christian and liberal at the same time. They address two different questions. So there is a distinction, but that does not make them mutually exclusive.

And by the way, being agnostic does not imply being open-minded. Some agnostics, for example, believe that the question of a god existing is not knowable, and so they are closed to an answer one way or another.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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5/26/2015 9:12:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

I don't believe that any god exists, including the God of Abraham and Allah of Muhammed. My lack of belief is based on lack of evidence. Provide something that can be demonstrated to be factual and unambiguous in support of the assertion that a god, any god, exists and I could change my belief. Define that how you will.
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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5/26/2015 11:03:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I can't believe people are still discussing the meaning of atheism....
Atheism is not a lack of belief (that's new atheist nonsense), but a belief in the nonexistence of God. This is how the term is used in professional philosophy: ""Atheism" means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God." http://plato.stanford.edu...
"Atheist" originated from the Greek "Atheos" which was used to describe one who rejects the gods.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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5/26/2015 11:08:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

If your life is working out well with God in it. Then stay with that belief. If it causing you more guilt and confusion then keep God out of your life. God cannot change your mind, only you can. Remember God couldn't even change the minds of those who killed His son Jesus whom He sent as His message. If you want something more as a self help take up meditation. You will be surprised how much better you function when you keep all that trash out of your mind.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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5/26/2015 11:10:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
LOL---I love it!

PinValentine in the OP politely asks any believers to submit to him even a SHRED or proof--or even a decent argument--for the existence of God.

And then the thread devolves into an argument on the differences between an Atheist or an Agnostic. And one post even went so far as to claim that Pin wouldn't accept any evidence for God even if it were offered.

Typical Christian responses. Then again..who can blame? When you truly are bereft of ANY evidence, or even a semi-decent argument for the veracity of your belief it's natural to simply attempt to change the subject! LOL.

In debate circles this is called "deflection."

I echo the OP plea! As an agnostic I am ALWAYS open to listen to arguments for God. Or for the fact Jesus was physically resurrected. I have even attempted to play both sides of the equation and present to atheists the age-worn Christian arguments for their beliefs. (There are only a couple that even work a little bit, but alas, those crumble with a good logical rebuttal.)

PIN--Nice try, but you are wasting your time here. I highly doubt you will get anything worthwhile here. Maybe a few bible quotes. You know: the old "It has to be true cuz my bible tells me so!" LOL.

Circular logic.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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5/26/2015 11:17:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 11:03:56 AM, Fkkize wrote:
I can't believe people are still discussing the meaning of atheism....
Atheism is not a lack of belief (that's new atheist nonsense), but a belief in the nonexistence of God. This is how the term is used in professional philosophy: ""Atheism" means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God." http://plato.stanford.edu...
"Atheist" originated from the Greek "Atheos" which was used to describe one who rejects the gods.

Atheist" originated from the Greek "Atheos" which was used to describe one who <em>rejects the gods.

Precisely correct. We reject the assertion of existence of any god or gods primarily due to lack of any factual evidence.

PS, what is a 'professional philosopher'? How does pondering your belly button or the universe help one make a living unless one is an instructor in the discipline?
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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5/26/2015 11:22:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 11:17:31 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/26/2015 11:03:56 AM, Fkkize wrote:
I can't believe people are still discussing the meaning of atheism....
Atheism is not a lack of belief (that's new atheist nonsense), but a belief in the nonexistence of God. This is how the term is used in professional philosophy: ""Atheism" means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God." http://plato.stanford.edu...
"Atheist" originated from the Greek "Atheos" which was used to describe one who rejects the gods.

Atheist" originated from the Greek "Atheos" which was used to describe one who <em>rejects the gods.

Precisely correct. We reject the assertion of existence of any god or gods primarily due to lack of any factual evidence.

PS, what is a 'professional philosopher'?
Someone who's making a living with philosophy.

How does pondering your belly button or the universe help one make a living unless one is an instructor in the discipline?
Writing books and essays for example. Haven't you heard the term "analytic phylosophy" before?
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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5/26/2015 11:25:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 11:17:31 AM, dhardage wrote:
Precisely correct. We reject the assertion of existence of any god or gods primarily due to lack of any factual evidence.
I would not generalize that.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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5/26/2015 11:29:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

Faith while supported by logic is not solely an intellectual exercise. They both support one another. Faith must be lived. Belief is not a logical study, but rather a shared experience with God.

So if you are truly serious about having an open mind, then I will give you the best thing that I know of. Pray the rosary for 40 days (it will take you about 20 minutes each day) with a open heart with a request for the gift of faith to know and love God. If you do this I will help you learn how to pray the rosary and I'll pray a rosary every day for you.

Sure it takes time, but if you are serious about searching for God, I cannot give you better advise.
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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5/26/2015 11:52:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 5:43:38 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:51:26 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Your confusing Atheism with faith.

Your argument is really equivocation. By your argument, every single atheist in the world that I know of or have met are agnostic, including Richard Dawkins.

In reality a/Gnosticism is how much knowledge you claim to have if Gods, and atheism is whether you have a belief in God. So they're sort of different things, and certainly applied differently.

I wasn't being clear enough. What I mean is that agnosticism is the open mindedness one has in interpreting god's existence. They do not take a stance on the idea of whether god exists. An atheist takes the stance that god does not exist.

You do have a point, but we (agnostics) DO take a stance on whether or not a SPECIFIC god (one that has been posited) does or does not exist. Those that have been posited have been rejected by me.

The definitions of both are self explanatory:
Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
Agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
(from google)

Individuals, however, do add their own "twist" or "nuance" to these definitions, however, as needed.

PinValentine says that she is willing to accept that god could exist and claims that if someone proves it to her, she'll somehow be convinced. This is irrational as noone on a forum site can somehow magically prove the existence of god. Her request shows doubt on the existence of god, thus, she's really an agnostic not an atheist.

Or an agnostic atheist. Perhaps her stance is that, until/unless one is proven, her stance is atheism.

Dazz says we shouldn't put labels on ourselves which I believe is a fair point but I think only really applies if you're famous. Who cares if you're atheist or agnostic on the internet? But you might get backlash if you're a well known person.

It's up to each individual, as to whether or not they choose to wear a label. If one chooses to wear a label, however, it should be one of their own choosing, not one assigned by another (who might not happen to like an other)...
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/26/2015 1:27:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument.

Well, Pin, everyone has stuff they don't much like.

Perhaps your neighbours eat the most appalling food, and it stinks up the place.
Maybe you'd like to rest on a Saturday morning, but they always mow their lawns then.
Suppose your spouse or partner gambles or cheats on you, and you can't really stop them.
Say you don't like garden-gnomes on your neighbours' lawns.
Or what if it's Brussels sprouts? A lot of people loathe them, so why do restaurants serve them?
How about if bubble-skirts came back? That wouldn't be too good, would it?

Right now, as an atheist, you're powerless to act unilaterally on these matters. The most you can do is protest.

But if you declared yourself religious, with your own special divinity telling you that you were Right in not liking this stuff, well then that would give your preferences the force of moral Law. On any matter you didn't much like, you could now go out and revile your neighbours, spouse, friends, family-members and community -- all under freedom of worship!

As an atheist your intolerance has nothing to hide behind. Consequently, you have to reason with, negotiate with or put up with what you can't change.

But as a worshipper, you're precious! You can confect doctrine, ritual, invent a hierarchy of religious authorities, each with their own special costumes -- all pointing the finger at anything you don't like and yelling "WRONG!" You can launch vilifications, persecutions, wars and ethnic cleansings -- all on grounds of religious authority!

So while you seem to be happy in your atheism, ask yourself: am I really that tolerant? Am I really?

If you're not, try religion.

I hope that helps.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,608
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5/26/2015 1:28:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 11:29:56 AM, Geogeer wrote:

Faith while supported by logic is not solely an intellectual exercise. They both support one another. Faith must be lived. Belief is not a logical study, but rather a shared experience with God.

Isn't it a contradiction to say that logic supports faith but faith is not a logical study? Has it not been shown time and again that believing in anything that has never been shown to exist is indeed the antithesis of logic? The very definition of logic is reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity, which is not something faith demonstrates other than within the context of probabilities and pure chance.

So if you are truly serious about having an open mind, then I will give you the best thing that I know of. Pray the rosary for 40 days (it will take you about 20 minutes each day) with a open heart with a request for the gift of faith to know and love God. If you do this I will help you learn how to pray the rosary and I'll pray a rosary every day for you.

Sure it takes time, but if you are serious about searching for God, I cannot give you better advise.

That's it"? An incantation to summon God? Sorry, but there are many atheists who used to say the Rosary a whole lot more than 40 times with no resulting relationships.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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5/26/2015 1:33:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Do you accuse all people of lying without reason, or do you limit your inappropriate accusations to atheists?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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5/26/2015 1:40:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 5:43:38 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:51:26 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Your confusing Atheism with faith.

Your argument is really equivocation. By your argument, every single atheist in the world that I know of or have met are agnostic, including Richard Dawkins.

In reality a/Gnosticism is how much knowledge you claim to have if Gods, and atheism is whether you have a belief in God. So they're sort of different things, and certainly applied differently.

I wasn't being clear enough. What I mean is that agnosticism is the open mindedness one has in interpreting god's existence. They do not take a stance on the idea of whether god exists. An atheist takes the stance that god does not exist.

The definitions of both are self explanatory:
Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
Agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
(from google)

Agnostic and atheist are not mutually exclusive.

PinValentine says that she is willing to accept that god could exist and claims that if someone proves it to her, she'll somehow be convinced. This is irrational as noone on a forum site can somehow magically prove the existence of god. Her request shows doubt on the existence of god, thus, she's really an agnostic not an atheist.

Dazz says we shouldn't put labels on ourselves which I believe is a fair point but I think only really applies if you're famous. Who cares if you're atheist or agnostic on the internet? But you might get backlash if you're a well known person.

It applies to everyone. Case in point, you attacked her due to a label instead of responding to her plea for evidence.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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5/26/2015 1:46:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 6:20:52 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 5:59:46 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Why not? You're portraying atheists in negative light.

I believe there should be a distinction between atheists and well, non-atheists. Those who have chosen not to believe in god but who accept god if there's proof I believe are agnostics. Atheists absolutely don't believe in a god.

Agnostics don't believe in god either.

The problem is there's no proper dictionary distinction. Both agnostic and atheists are not mutually exclusive terms. But I've made a distinction personally. I do think there should be a distinction between an agnostic who neither believes nor disbelieves in god and someone who disbelieves in god but only for the moment (or until proof comes along). It's unlikely proof comes along and thus that conviction is what makes an atheist an atheist.

I think you are viewing all atheists as gnostic, and that is simply not the case. From my experience, most atheists are agnostic to the concept of an unrevealed god.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
PinValentine
Posts: 16
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5/26/2015 2:06:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 1:46:22 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/26/2015 6:20:52 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 5:59:46 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:36:37 AM, Adam_Godzilla wrote:
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

An atheist would not question nor be willing to accept any other truth than the fact that there is no god. Otherwise, you would be an agnostic who is open to any other interpretation.

Why not? You're portraying atheists in negative light.

I believe there should be a distinction between atheists and well, non-atheists. Those who have chosen not to believe in god but who accept god if there's proof I believe are agnostics. Atheists absolutely don't believe in a god.

Agnostics don't believe in god either.

The problem is there's no proper dictionary distinction. Both agnostic and atheists are not mutually exclusive terms. But I've made a distinction personally. I do think there should be a distinction between an agnostic who neither believes nor disbelieves in god and someone who disbelieves in god but only for the moment (or until proof comes along). It's unlikely proof comes along and thus that conviction is what makes an atheist an atheist.

I think you are viewing all atheists as gnostic, and that is simply not the case. From my experience, most atheists are agnostic to the concept of an unrevealed god.

I will reiterate. I am an atheist. I disbelieve in the existence of a god. No scientifically minded person is permanent on their beliefs. I do not believe a God exists, does not mean there isn't one. I am not Agnostic, it's not that I "Do not know", It's that I'm pretty sure. I see no real reason to believe in a God, but maybe some one can say something that would change my mind.

I am an Atheist.

But we are not here to discuss the differences in belief.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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5/26/2015 2:06:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 1:28:42 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/26/2015 11:29:56 AM, Geogeer wrote:

Faith while supported by logic is not solely an intellectual exercise. They both support one another. Faith must be lived. Belief is not a logical study, but rather a shared experience with God.

Isn't it a contradiction to say that logic supports faith but faith is not a logical study?

What I said is that it is not solely an intellectual exercise. Faith and reason are not at odds, but rather work in concert. Reason alone, will not result in faith.

Has it not been shown time and again that believing in anything that has never been shown to exist is indeed the antithesis of logic?

Logic is not limited to empiricism.

The very definition of logic is reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity, which is not something faith demonstrates other than within the context of probabilities and pure chance.

Faith is not blind, but aided by reason.

So if you are truly serious about having an open mind, then I will give you the best thing that I know of. Pray the rosary for 40 days (it will take you about 20 minutes each day) with a open heart with a request for the gift of faith to know and love God. If you do this I will help you learn how to pray the rosary and I'll pray a rosary every day for you.

Sure it takes time, but if you are serious about searching for God, I cannot give you better advise.

That's it"? An incantation to summon God? Sorry, but there are many atheists who used to say the Rosary a whole lot more than 40 times with no resulting relationships.

Faith is a relationship with God. I am providing a means to open the relationship. If you view saying the rosary as a magic incantation, no wonder you cannot maintain your relationship with God. Saying the rosary with a closed heart is as useful as running a 100m dash with a VW tied to your waist.

Then again I didn't expect any other kind of response from the atheists on this board. I'm also expecting MCB to pipe in and say how incredibly wrong saying a rosary is. Then maybe Bendido will copy an anti-Catholic rosary tract and paste 3 pages of replies and then disappear. Such is life on here.
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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5/26/2015 2:13:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/26/2015 4:26:22 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am very willing to change my mind on good evidence or a good argument. I am always looking for the truth, and I will provide the truth as I understand it. If you think you have evidence, or a good argument, that might change my mind, please share. I'm willing to hear what you have to say.

Please one argument at a time.

As Aquinas argued, the universe must have a first cause in order to exist. What is that cause, if not some higher power?