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tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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8/9/2010 3:02:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

You mean why free will?
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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8/9/2010 3:06:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hey Jude, don't make it bad. Take a sad song and make it better, remember to let her into your heart, and then you can start to make it better.
kfc
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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8/9/2010 3:08:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:06:53 PM, Koopin wrote:
Hey Jude, don't make it bad. Take a sad song and make it better, remember to let her into your heart, and then you can start to make it better.

Been a while since i have seen your spam. Good to see you.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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8/9/2010 3:09:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

Because he doesn't exist.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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8/9/2010 3:09:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:02:43 PM, innomen wrote:
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

You mean why free will?

No, i mean why is God interfering and stopping crime, a direct denial of free will. The argument clearly doesnt hold when Superman goes around and stops crime. Why would it hold when God did it.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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8/9/2010 3:11:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:09:55 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:02:43 PM, innomen wrote:
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

You mean why free will?

No, i mean why is God interfering and stopping crime, a direct denial of free will. The argument clearly doesnt hold when Superman goes around and stops crime. Why would it hold when God did it.

I'm a little lost. God is actively interfering and stopping crime?
Mason0612
Posts: 160
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8/9/2010 3:12:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:11:18 PM, innomen wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:09:55 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:02:43 PM, innomen wrote:
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

You mean why free will?

No, i mean why is God interfering and stopping crime, a direct denial of free will. The argument clearly doesnt hold when Superman goes around and stops crime. Why would it hold when God did it.

I'm a little lost. God is actively interfering and stopping crime?

According to Christians, God has intervened in the world. Someone gets cured, they praise God. People pray that God keep their families safe, etc. so ya, there is a perception from Christians that God intervenes.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/9/2010 3:13:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:11:18 PM, innomen wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:09:55 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:02:43 PM, innomen wrote:
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

You mean why free will?

No, i mean why is God interfering and stopping crime, a direct denial of free will. The argument clearly doesnt hold when Superman goes around and stops crime. Why would it hold when God did it.

I'm a little lost. God is actively interfering and stopping crime?

no... but he should be.

at least stuff like torturing people to death for fun...

god COULD stop it (like superman) but doesn't.

IF superman just stood back and watched it he'd be a sadistic prick....

but superman's actually a decent guy and puts a stop to it.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
cjl
Posts: 1,073
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8/9/2010 3:14:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

He does, through the police!
Mason0612
Posts: 160
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8/9/2010 3:14:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:14:02 PM, cjl wrote:
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

He does, through the police!

So, does that mean he is speaking atheist views to you through me?
cjl
Posts: 1,073
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8/9/2010 3:21:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:14:47 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:14:02 PM, cjl wrote:
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

He does, through the police!

So, does that mean he is speaking atheist views to you through me?

Sure. He is trying to het you to change through me.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/9/2010 3:22:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:02:43 PM, innomen wrote:
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

You mean why free will?

People say that evil exists because God gave us free will and thus, he doesn't stop evil from happening.

Yet, when Superman is stopping evil, he isn't denying anyones free will.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Mason0612
Posts: 160
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8/9/2010 3:24:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:21:28 PM, cjl wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:14:47 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:14:02 PM, cjl wrote:
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

He does, through the police!

So, does that mean he is speaking atheist views to you through me?

Sure. He is trying to het you to change through me.

Well, providing 0 evidence is not a good way to get someone to change. If God is really using you to change me, then he is incompetent, inept, and a complete failure at trying to convert people. These are not good characteristics of an all knowing all powerful all loving being.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/9/2010 3:25:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Maybe God already stops massive amounts of crime and suffering, prevents natural evils, stop injustices etc. Perhaps the bad things that actually occur are only a fraction of the ones that would happen if God didn't intervene.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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8/9/2010 3:26:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:11:18 PM, innomen wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:09:55 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:02:43 PM, innomen wrote:
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

You mean why free will?

No, i mean why is God interfering and stopping crime, a direct denial of free will. The argument clearly doesnt hold when Superman goes around and stops crime. Why would it hold when God did it.

I'm a little lost. God is actively interfering and stopping crime?

No, he isnt, and the main argument for this, is because if God went in and stopped, for example, a rapist from raping a 13 year old girl, God would be denying the Rapist his free will in commiting an act of crime.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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8/9/2010 3:30:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:25:53 PM, Kinesis wrote:
Maybe God already stops massive amounts of crime and suffering, prevents natural evils, stop injustices etc. Perhaps the bad things that actually occur are only a fraction of the ones that would happen if God didn't intervene.

Then the question becomes, why leave the fraction? Its like the police, refusing to solve a small percent of crimes. The public would have an outcry if the police started to say "Sorry, but were not gonna bother investigating your fathers murder, because weve just pulled straws and it came up short. Sucks to be you"
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/9/2010 3:38:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Superman isn't all powerful and all seeing. The suffering in the world is all part of Gods plan and we have to trust that he knows what he is doing.

Pedophile rings = Part of Gods plan.
Child soldiers = Part of Gods plan.
Drug dealers and addicts = Part of Gods plan.
Horrible, crippling, debilitating, torturous diseases and illnesses = Part of Gods plan.
Catastrophic oil spills = Part of Gods plan.
Worldwide suffering of every type of creature, big and small = Part of Gods plan.

Superman doesn't understand why we need all this terrible stuff, God is.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/9/2010 3:38:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:38:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Superman isn't all powerful and all seeing. The suffering in the world is all part of Gods plan and we have to trust that he knows what he is doing.

Pedophile rings = Part of Gods plan.
Child soldiers = Part of Gods plan.
Drug dealers and addicts = Part of Gods plan.
Horrible, crippling, debilitating, torturous diseases and illnesses = Part of Gods plan.
Catastrophic oil spills = Part of Gods plan.
Worldwide suffering of every type of creature, big and small = Part of Gods plan.

Superman doesn't understand why we need all this terrible stuff, God does.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Mason0612
Posts: 160
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8/9/2010 3:39:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:38:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Superman isn't all powerful and all seeing. The suffering in the world is all part of Gods plan and we have to trust that he knows what he is doing.

Pedophile rings = Part of Gods plan.
Child soldiers = Part of Gods plan.
Drug dealers and addicts = Part of Gods plan.
Horrible, crippling, debilitating, torturous diseases and illnesses = Part of Gods plan.
Catastrophic oil spills = Part of Gods plan.
Worldwide suffering of every type of creature, big and small = Part of Gods plan.

Superman doesn't understand why we need all this terrible stuff, God is.

If it's his plan, then how do you explain free will? And why would people go to hell if they were just pawns in his overall plan?
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/9/2010 3:43:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:39:35 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:38:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Superman isn't all powerful and all seeing. The suffering in the world is all part of Gods plan and we have to trust that he knows what he is doing.

Pedophile rings = Part of Gods plan.
Child soldiers = Part of Gods plan.
Drug dealers and addicts = Part of Gods plan.
Horrible, crippling, debilitating, torturous diseases and illnesses = Part of Gods plan.
Catastrophic oil spills = Part of Gods plan.
Worldwide suffering of every type of creature, big and small = Part of Gods plan.

Superman doesn't understand why we need all this terrible stuff, God is.

If it's his plan, then how do you explain free will? And why would people go to hell if they were just pawns in his overall plan?

I can't begin to understand His plan. All I know is that I will go to heaven because I believe and you will burn forever because you are a sinner and a pawn of satan.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Mason0612
Posts: 160
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8/9/2010 3:46:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:43:23 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:39:35 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:38:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Superman isn't all powerful and all seeing. The suffering in the world is all part of Gods plan and we have to trust that he knows what he is doing.

Pedophile rings = Part of Gods plan.
Child soldiers = Part of Gods plan.
Drug dealers and addicts = Part of Gods plan.
Horrible, crippling, debilitating, torturous diseases and illnesses = Part of Gods plan.
Catastrophic oil spills = Part of Gods plan.
Worldwide suffering of every type of creature, big and small = Part of Gods plan.

Superman doesn't understand why we need all this terrible stuff, God is.

If it's his plan, then how do you explain free will? And why would people go to hell if they were just pawns in his overall plan?

I can't begin to understand His plan. All I know is that I will go to heaven because I believe and you will burn forever because you are a sinner and a pawn of satan.

How dare you say that! Thoughts and creeds like this are a disgrace to science, me, and the human species.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/9/2010 3:47:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:46:09 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:43:23 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:39:35 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:38:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Superman isn't all powerful and all seeing. The suffering in the world is all part of Gods plan and we have to trust that he knows what he is doing.

Pedophile rings = Part of Gods plan.
Child soldiers = Part of Gods plan.
Drug dealers and addicts = Part of Gods plan.
Horrible, crippling, debilitating, torturous diseases and illnesses = Part of Gods plan.
Catastrophic oil spills = Part of Gods plan.
Worldwide suffering of every type of creature, big and small = Part of Gods plan.

Superman doesn't understand why we need all this terrible stuff, God is.

If it's his plan, then how do you explain free will? And why would people go to hell if they were just pawns in his overall plan?

I can't begin to understand His plan. All I know is that I will go to heaven because I believe and you will burn forever because you are a sinner and a pawn of satan.

How dare you say that! Thoughts and creeds like this are a disgrace to science, me, and the human species.

God hates you and all Atheists!
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Mason0612
Posts: 160
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8/9/2010 3:50:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:47:11 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:46:09 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:43:23 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:39:35 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:38:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Superman isn't all powerful and all seeing. The suffering in the world is all part of Gods plan and we have to trust that he knows what he is doing.

Pedophile rings = Part of Gods plan.
Child soldiers = Part of Gods plan.
Drug dealers and addicts = Part of Gods plan.
Horrible, crippling, debilitating, torturous diseases and illnesses = Part of Gods plan.
Catastrophic oil spills = Part of Gods plan.
Worldwide suffering of every type of creature, big and small = Part of Gods plan.

Superman doesn't understand why we need all this terrible stuff, God is.

If it's his plan, then how do you explain free will? And why would people go to hell if they were just pawns in his overall plan?

I can't begin to understand His plan. All I know is that I will go to heaven because I believe and you will burn forever because you are a sinner and a pawn of satan.

How dare you say that! Thoughts and creeds like this are a disgrace to science, me, and the human species.

God hates you and all Atheists!

You sir, are ignorant, intolerant, and don't think for yourself. God most likely does not exist, there probably is no heaven or hell, and all us humans have is this one life. Through human effort, we can make our lives better. Religious lies hold our species back, and are detrimental to society.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/9/2010 3:50:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:39:35 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:38:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Superman isn't all powerful and all seeing. The suffering in the world is all part of Gods plan and we have to trust that he knows what he is doing.

Pedophile rings = Part of Gods plan.
Child soldiers = Part of Gods plan.
Drug dealers and addicts = Part of Gods plan.
Horrible, crippling, debilitating, torturous diseases and illnesses = Part of Gods plan.
Catastrophic oil spills = Part of Gods plan.
Worldwide suffering of every type of creature, big and small = Part of Gods plan.

Superman doesn't understand why we need all this terrible stuff, God is.

If it's his plan, then how do you explain free will? And why would people go to hell if they were just pawns in his overall plan?

I guess you don't recognize sarcasm when you see it. tvelliot is an Atheist.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/9/2010 3:55:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

Free will and the divine plan.

PS: Not once have I seen Superman mention Jesus, so he is clearly going to hell, like Ghandhi... but not Hitler who is assured of heaven. Is that fair?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/9/2010 4:56:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:30:46 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/9/2010 3:25:53 PM, Kinesis wrote:
Maybe God already stops massive amounts of crime and suffering, prevents natural evils, stop injustices etc. Perhaps the bad things that actually occur are only a fraction of the ones that would happen if God didn't intervene.

Then the question becomes, why leave the fraction? Its like the police, refusing to solve a small percent of crimes. The public would have an outcry if the police started to say "Sorry, but were not gonna bother investigating your fathers murder, because weve just pulled straws and it came up short. Sucks to be you"

Yah, but God leaves in all the evils that ultimately lead to a greater good. God's omniscient, the police are not.
Kinesis
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8/9/2010 4:57:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:55:20 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/9/2010 2:58:39 PM, tkubok wrote:
Superman goes around with his immense powers, to stop crime from occurring.

Yet, no one goes up to Superman and says "Hey, you're not allowed to stop crime, because you would be denying the criminals their free will by doing so!"

No one would find that an especially convincing argument.

So why apply it to Religion? I mean, i can stop a crime. Why can't God do the same?

Free will and the divine plan.

PS: Not once have I seen Superman mention Jesus, so he is clearly going to hell, like Ghandhi... but not Hitler who is assured of heaven. Is that fair?

lol, Hitler was a terrible Christian. I doubt he's going to heaven.