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God has some things to answer for.

Kryptic
Posts: 30
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6/1/2015 6:22:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Rules:
1. No bigoted, smart aleck or ignorant responses to genuine questions.
2. For every honest and detailed question will require an honest and detailed response.
3. Gang up wars will not work, I will address one person each time I reply, unless the responses are quite short.
4. An ignorance of current knowledge doesn't mean you have a 'get out of jail free card'.
5. All responses have to be well thought out and cover every point of the question.

I guess I will tell you a little about myself. My name is Blake, I am 19 years old and have been a Christian for the last 17 years (if we're being anal, I have been a Christian for myself for 3 years).
I am an only child and was born into / brought up in a small city with little crime; my grandparents took me to church for a few years until my parents became believers and decided to start going also.
My parents then took me until I was around 9. At this point they got hurt by the church and were basically kicked out, they kept their faith and did their own thing.
I was always interested in the unknown and my mum would take me to the library and read me books, until I could research for myself.

By the time I was in year 6, I began to go through rejection issues at school, the kids didn't really understand me, they were busy playing sports, which I became tired of and didn't want me around. I started to go through depression as my father had a bad past and tried his best without much success to be a good dad.
My mum took me to a larger city about 600 miles north, I went to a school there, the majority of the kids were dark skinned and saw me, one of the few light skinned kids as different; but they grew to like me and eventually 'adopt' me as a family member.

During my high schooling, not much changed, I did my own thing, getting home from school and either doing martial arts or playing online video games, or just thinking about life... you know, what any depressed high schooler thinks about.

I went through bad depression through year 9 and 10, when year 11 started I picked the 'suicidal 6', the 6 hardest subjects in order to get a good score for university.
This went miserably and I failed, I went through denial of failing at the only thing I was good at and just locked my self away. Soon after, my parents took me out of school where I would be isolated for a good portion of time before going to tafe and church.

Tafe sucked, but church was cool, people were motivating, they were encouraging, they were loving, caring, appreciating, they wanted the best for everyone. Which was different for me, I've never felt that way before.
I left tafe and soon after got a job, I started going to a youth group and got saved for my self at 16. I had this experience that made me feel incredible, it's what Christians refer to as 'The Holy Spirit'. It was enlightening, peaceful, calm, and just great.
I felt amazing, however shortly after this I would leave church to become isolated once more.

The job I was in was terrible, I worked with two people who hated others, who would rip them off and just be terrible to people. I left and decided to go and get my year 12 equivalent. I did, and it was great, I never felt so good in my life, other than you know... what Christians refer to as 'The Holy Spirit'.
Soon after this I would start my degree in biology, I met some people and became best friends with a girl that I began falling for after a while.

I later found out she wasn't sincere or genuine, authentic or kind. That hurt me a lot because I told her a lot.. we were close, as I thought. At this point I felt worse than ever, I was suicidal, (which I would of been if she wasn't around anyway.) and just wanted to be alone.
At this point I 'called out to god' or 'prayed' and felt led to contact an old friend that I knew was in church.
I went in to his youth group (a different youth group and church), and had an even stronger experience this time. It was overwhelming and cool etc.

I decided to live for god, I put everything into him, I put him first, I lived for him. I started a theology course to learn more.

AND.... the problems started coming. My faith, which was in an experience I had a few times would be shaken. The bible basically advocated logical fallacy, so many bigoted people suggesting creationism and intelligent design were 'factual' and 'the only possible explanation'. But these were coming from people who never opened a text book.

I was confused and enraged that these people were brainwashing the masses, the only thing I knew that was true in my spiritual walk (or religious cult... depends on how you value Christianity), was the holy spirit, or at least what they referred to as the holy spirit. This warm, loving overwhelming presence.

I began looking up creationism, intelligent design, fundamental, liberal, legalistic, literal Christians. Even new age spiritual Christians. Even the theistic evolution Christians. They all had the same flaw. God is true because the bible says he is, and the bible is true because the bible says it is.

The only thing I knew that was real is that I had an experience with something that Christians call the holy spirit, so I stayed. Months went by but I stayed. I decided to question more but the only response I got was I didn't pray enough and I didn't have enough faith.

So I asked for a place to pray and went to this really nice area where I could experience the presence of god as Christians say. I would pray and ask questions, write down revelation and pray... I would fast and pray, I would abstain and be steadfast with long suffering.

But in the end, the leaders of the church and all churches were still this arrogant, ignorant bigoted uneducated faith seeking blind fool. Every question I had would be refuted with 'don't lean on mans understanding'... or 'the bible has never been questioned and if it is, it's just bad science because the literal interpretation of the bible is true, so god must have created everything the same way'.

Every single time I had a question, people gave me shabby answers and would say 'just wait, god will answer it'... and nothing. Not a single answer.

So I said... I am going to accept what I know and have learnt and leave the rest up for discussion, then people started saying I had little faith and am doing it wrong. it started irritating me, they then used the excuse that me being irritated was proof because in 1John and Galatians, it has the fruits of the spirit or how to tell if someone has the fruits, or doesn't...

So, I decided to become an agnostic deist accepting that what the Christians refer to as the holy spirit is true, but the rest may not be.
I am borderline atheistic at this point as no one wants to address my problems and uses common logical fallacies to dismiss evidence.

"You can't tell me how life began, therefore, a 6000 year old earth, literal 6 day creation and intelligent design are all true."

I am sick and tired of the ignorance and lack of pursuit to find and seek balance and peace. People say 'as long as you're in the kingdom of god (church)'... I can't actually grasp how futile these simple minded bigots are, no one appears to want to address these issues.

Now obviously I don't expect a common person to answer difficult scientific questions, but instead of saying 'I don't know, I guess what ever they find is true'... they say stuff like 'man is a failing creature'.
But if someone does something right people say 'Well he is the son of god'... This double sided coin is outrageous and needs to stop.

My questions...

1. Why do Christians REJECT logical and reasonable though?
2. Why do I see most Christians being the gossiping / bitter people.
3. Why do I see so many wars over what god is true?
4. Why do we still only look to a book to describe everything?
5. Why is there SO MANY CONTRADICTIONS...? Love everyone, *Jesus says*... but gays, well they're ga
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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6/1/2015 6:52:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 6:22:02 AM, Kryptic wrote:
Rules:
1. No bigoted, smart aleck or ignorant responses to genuine questions.
2. For every honest and detailed question will require an honest and detailed response.
3. Gang up wars will not work, I will address one person each time I reply, unless the responses are quite short.
4. An ignorance of current knowledge doesn't mean you have a 'get out of jail free card'.
5. All responses have to be well thought out and cover every point of the question.


My questions...

1. Why do Christians REJECT logical and reasonable though?
2. Why do I see most Christians being the gossiping / bitter people.
3. Why do I see so many wars over what god is true?
4. Why do we still only look to a book to describe eve

Hey Krytic, it good to talk to you new friend. You have some awesome questions and I see you are able to accept Spiritual matters, so I would love to discuss these things with you.

The first question you wrote is the most intriguing to me, because I understand exactly what you're asking. My spirit abhors contradictions, whether they involve Theology, Philosophy, or Science. I refuse to accept a contradiction. I would love to discuss some contradictions with you and see if we can come to a mutual understanding of what God has done. What the Scriptures truly teach is not very popular with anyone, but I assure you that God has the most beautiful, perfect plan. The rest of your questions will be answered as we go along, but if it's okay with you, I'd like to discuss contradictions and tell you about the One True God and His Logos (Greek- Logic, Reason, Word), Messiah Yeshua (Jesus the Christ). Would this be okay with you? If you'd like, I'll go ahead and address your other questions, but I feel like this one topic could answer them all. Thank you friend and God bless you.
Kryptic
Posts: 30
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6/1/2015 7:12:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
That sounds good :) I have many more things to share as I have been in this theology course for quite some time, I would prefer addressing the questions and further questions here, but I would like to talk in PM also
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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6/1/2015 7:17:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hi Blake.

1. Why do Christians REJECT logical and reasonable though?

This seems a little absurd but I won't get irritated I'll try to be cordial. Perhaps you should provide an example because it's hard to know what you're talking about here.

The problem with some like this is that it is not specific to Christianity, you seem to have derived your opinion from people, not Christianity. It's not only just some Christians who reject logical and reasonable thoughts, you see people like this in ALL camps, even right here in this forum, there are morons in all walks of life not just Christianity lol.
It sounds to me like you spent a great deal of time in the company of other believers, and in that company you met a lot of morons (presumably) but you will find that everywhere you go and surround yourself with people.
I've spent time with other believers just like you and yes, there are some dummies but that means nothing to me personally nor does it hinder my spiritual life, because my relation with God is not dependent on other people.

2. Why do I see most Christians being the gossiping / bitter people.

Take a look around buddy, it's not just the Christians. Maybe where you came from but I live in an area where we are the minority and I'm seeing this true of ALL camps not one in particular.
The Christians I know are very thoughtful, bright, sharing and will do just about anything for ya. Not perfect people, but people who are at least trying in a dark world.

You want me to answer questions that just aren't true. These are your own experiences these aren't facts. And I'm not trying to be rude but these are insulting.

3. Why do I see so many wars over what god is true?

Don't know, not something that should be going on but it is. However I'm not sure how this is relevant to Christianity, maybe politics but not sure what you want here.

4. Why do we still only look to a book to describe everything?

Personally I look to the Bible for what it is for and nothing really more. It is a spiritual book and teaches the truth about spiritual things and that's about it, the rest is history.
The reason we look to the Bible is to understand the spirit and spirituality not everything, and I doubt anyone claims that.
Don't conflate here, the Bible is a spiritual subject just like any other subject, health, mechanics, music, medical ect ect. It is its own category, not all categories.

5. Why is there SO MANY CONTRADICTIONS...? Love everyone, *Jesus says*... but gays, well they're ga

People are hypocrites. I see this everywhere not just with Christians. Where I live Christians don't hate gay people like everyone suggests! Sure there are some but that is an over generalization. Me and my wife have gay people over when ever they want to come over. We discuss spiritual things, make them dinner and all is good. Gay people are interested in spiritual things too. We gotta extend love first and just treat people as ourselves. We all fall short of being perfect and we all are at different levels even in the Church.

Well it seems to me at first glance you have a big problem with some Christians you've met. Well so have I my friend but it doesn't impact my spiritual walk. God is our anchor not man. Is there anything that Jesus taught or in Christianity directly that you have a problem with?
Try not to pull from other people what you need to pull from within. Meaning just step back, evaluate what Jesus taught and apply that to yourself. Forget about church and ignorant people, in the end it's just you and God, we all leave this world alone.
roun12
Posts: 177
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6/1/2015 7:19:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 6:22:02 AM, Kryptic wrote:
My questions...

1. Why do Christians REJECT logical and reasonable though?
2. Why do I see most Christians being the gossiping / bitter people.
3. Why do I see so many wars over what god is true?
4. Why do we still only look to a book to describe everything?
5. Why is there SO MANY CONTRADICTIONS...? Love everyone, *Jesus says*... but gays, well they're gay

I'll try to answer as best as I can.

1. Most Christians are brought up believing in God with all their hearts. But when logic is applied their beliefs start to fall apart.

2. Because a lot of them think that people who don't believe in their God are evil Satan worshipers and EVERYONE know how evil Satan is.

3. Because the concept of God typically obeys borders and people believe that their God is the correct God and everyone else is wrong.

4. Because the book is worshiped as the ultimate source of morality and goodness which is a lie because it condones rape, slavery, and killing non-believers.

5. Because the people who wrote the Bible were dumb Bronze Age savages who just wanted to control people and the Bible was written by multiple people decades after the events depicted in the Bible took place.

I hope this helped.
"No, I disagree. 'R' is among the most menacing of sounds. That's why they call it MURDER, not Muckduck." - Dwight

"Tell people there's an invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and the vast majority will believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." - George Carlin
Kryptic
Posts: 30
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6/1/2015 7:36:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Other issues I see is that Jesus was not the only Christ like figure, in fact, about 81 people were crucified in the name of their belief for salvation. If not crucified, killed in the name of what they believed in in order to bring peace amongst the people.

http://listverse.com...

this gives an example of what 10 figures who were like Christ, who did literally the SAME thing as him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com...

http://beginningandend.com...

http://thedevineevidence.com...

These 4 sites all say the same thing, all of these figures lived the same life as jesus. all claimed to be a son of a god, all claimed to heal the sick, raise the dead etc.

To make another thing worse, we have evidence that ancient religions would copy famous ones at the time and meld them into their own story.
This seems as though Christianity was just a bundle or stories into one.

At this point I thought, well I still had an experience with the holy spirit. so perhaps that's true and Christianity is false, or at least... not all of it is true. So I became an agnostic deistic new age theistic Christian based on grace, love, acceptance etc.

when we have the 10 commandments and several law like structures but then get a scripture like Galatians 2:21 "I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. If living by the law could make us right with God, than Christ died for no reason."

And scripture like Isaiah 29:13 "They say they are mine, they worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing more than man made rote." (Rote being.. repetition, religious, programed).

In galatians, paul asks the people if they received the holy spirit by following the law, he says.. oh course not, you received it from grace.

You can't tell me that this does nothing to your faith, you can't tell me these are just lies or satan. you can't tell me this means nothing to you and you haven't changed anything at all in how you think about Christianity.

This didn't ruin it for me, just made me think.
I don't want people dancing around this issue. I want a straight to the point answer.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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6/1/2015 9:01:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 7:12:03 AM, Kryptic wrote:
That sounds good :) I have many more things to share as I have been in this theology course for quite some time, I would prefer addressing the questions and further questions here, but I would like to talk in PM also

Great I'm very excited to share the Gospel with you. I want to start this off from the very beginning, so if you don't mind, I'd like to explain the Garden of Eden, and hopefully God will reveal to you the True purpose of our meaningless lives.

Fundamental Christianity teaches that before the "fall" of mankind, some angel named Lucifer tried to rise above God, so God threw him down to earth where he became the Serpent. A few days after Creating the entire Universe, we are told that this Serpent tempted Adam and Eve, and this caused them to thwart the Will of God, thus making our God a failure before the first two people even reproduced. There is obviously something very wrong with this. We have to look deeper and if we use Logic, we can see that everything that happens is of God.

"And God said, Let us MAKE man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God CREATED man in his own image, in the image of God CREATED he him; male and female CREATED he them." Genesis 1:26

In this verse, in the first chapter of all the Scriptures, we see that God has told us His entire Plan for mankind. Before He "Created" man, He says "Let us 'make' man in our Image". The creating process was quick and finished when Adam took his first breath. But the making process is different. There was something Adam and Eve lacked, and this was Knowledge of Good and Evil.

"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Genesis 2:9

Next we see that it is God Himself who planted the Tree of Knowledge. Not only did He plant it, He put it right in the middle of the garden. Now the next verse is where most of the confusion comes from.

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [shalt] not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:16

Here is a link to an interliner translation of this verse http://biblehub.com......

The verse literally says

But of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil eat not of for in the day that you eat thereof dying you shall die.

The word "shalt" is not in the original Hebrew. God didn't tell them that they "couldn't" eat from the Tree of Knowledge, He said the "shouldn't" eat of it. Then He gives the reason why, and this shows that this whole story is God's Plan. He says "for in the day that you eat". He was telling Adam that He shouldn't eat it, but in the day that He does (because God knew and ordained that he would) then dying he shall die. So you see, God had just said that they were free to eat of any tree, and that is what He meant.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Genesis 3:1

Now the Serpent is introduced, and we can see that it is God who made him, and God Himself made him more subtile than any other creature. We are also introduced to his very first lie. God didn't say they may "not" eat of every tree; we just saw that He told them they could eat of every tree. This confuses Eve, and she responds-

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Genesis 3:2

Eve confirms they may eat of every tree, and then she repeats what God had warned them about the Tree of Knowledge. So the Serpent lies again.

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4

Adam and Eve did indeed die at the young age of 930. However, the Serpent also told them some Truth, although it was distorted. He told them they would be "as" or "like" gods. The Knowledge of Good and Evil is a requirement to be like God. He confirms this when He says-

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

And that is exactly what God had just said He was going to do in chapter one. So you see, everything that happens is in accordance to His Purpose. We now have the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but we lack the Wisdom and Prudence to distinguish what is Good versus what is Evil. Only one Man has fulfilled this full embodiment of Who God is, and that is Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ). That is why we are called to be like Him; to Love our neighbors as we love ourselves and to Love YHVH our God with all our heart and all our mind.

The Holy Spirit that you felt is indeed real. However, it is not some person of a triune god, it is the Spirit of God. The way you described it is exactly the way I describe it to other people, so I know what you felt it True.

Well I have to go to bed now. Think about the Garden and hopefully we can have a reasonable, logical discussion about God. God bless you my friend.
Harikrish
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6/1/2015 9:54:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 7:36:53 AM, Kryptic wrote:
Other issues I see is that Jesus was not the only Christ like figure, in fact, about 81 people were crucified in the name of their belief for salvation. If not crucified, killed in the name of what they believed in in order to bring peace amongst the people.

http://listverse.com...

this gives an example of what 10 figures who were like Christ, who did literally the SAME thing as him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com...

http://beginningandend.com...

http://thedevineevidence.com...

These 4 sites all say the same thing, all of these figures lived the same life as jesus. all claimed to be a son of a god, all claimed to heal the sick, raise the dead etc.

To make another thing worse, we have evidence that ancient religions would copy famous ones at the time and meld them into their own story.
This seems as though Christianity was just a bundle or stories into one.

At this point I thought, well I still had an experience with the holy spirit. so perhaps that's true and Christianity is false, or at least... not all of it is true. So I became an agnostic deistic new age theistic Christian based on grace, love, acceptance etc.

when we have the 10 commandments and several law like structures but then get a scripture like Galatians 2:21 "I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. If living by the law could make us right with God, than Christ died for no reason."

And scripture like Isaiah 29:13 "They say they are mine, they worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing more than man made rote." (Rote being.. repetition, religious, programed).

In galatians, paul asks the people if they received the holy spirit by following the law, he says.. oh course not, you received it from grace.

You can't tell me that this does nothing to your faith, you can't tell me these are just lies or satan. you can't tell me this means nothing to you and you haven't changed anything at all in how you think about Christianity.

This didn't ruin it for me, just made me think.
I don't want people dancing around this issue. I want a straight to the point answer.

A few things to consider,
The Jews created the God of the Bible as well as what was then a small Jewish sectarian religion called Christianity.
Jesus was a Jew and he believed he was the messiah sent by God to save the Jews. Jesus followed the Jewish tradition and spoke of the fulfilment of the prophesies. But the Jews rejected Jesus and put him to death for blasphemy.
Paul is really the founder of the Christian church. He created the Pauline Christianity which is what is followed by the majority of Christians today and it is based on 'justification by faith' and not works. Or as you put it salvation by 'grace' and not by following of Jewish tradition.
You have spent a lot of time for a 19 year old in the search for answers and truths. It is unfortunate you have stripped Christianity to the bare naked truth. It was created to exploit weak minds. Most biblical scholars who start out with great enthusiasm and expectations end up losing their faith after discovering all the contradictions, fabrications and errors contained in a book supposedly inspired by God.
Most church going Christians are only exposed to a few well rehearsed verses and never really know their bible well enough to be sufficiently informed. The bible does not have enough math or science to meet the requirements of a 4th grader which explains why it is a challenge to engage Christians beyond their high watermark set by the bible.
God has many things to answer for and has many answers which might satisfy a 4th grader. Another reason why you can no longer apply what your were taught at church in any rational decision making as an adult. But it is not all God's fault. Who could have imagined you needed more than one book to deal with the complexities of modern life and that humans would outgrow the Bronze Age and acquire knowledge, science and technology that would surpass all the knowledge God packed in the tree of knowledge that Adam was tricked into eating by a talking snake?
BTW there are 10 commandments and another 613 Mosaic laws the Jews were expected to follow. Paul knew that was show stopper for any gentile convert. So he dropped the Jewish tradition and customs to accommodate the Gentiles.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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6/1/2015 11:03:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 9:54:52 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 6/1/2015 7:36:53 AM, Kryptic wrote:

Hey Harikrish! I'm glad to see you here. I don't want to hijack this guy's thread to make it all about whether Paul was a false Apostle, but I would like to discuss this with you. Hopefully our conversation can help answer some of Kryptic's questions about what Paul meant in Galations 2:21.

You are correct that Paul dropped the Jewish traditions and customs. However, Paul did not drop the Law. The customs of the Jewish people had nothing to do with the Torah; they were from the Talmud, and the customs brought the Word of God to no effect. First, there is the tradition of washing hands before eating. This is not stated in the Torah, it was a custom that the Jewish people followed to abstain from what they called "common". The Torch never speaks of anything being common. There is clean (katharos) and unclean (akathartos) but common (koinos) is not mentioned.

"And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled (Greek koinos- common), that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders." Mark 7:2

The Pharisees judged the Disciples because they didn't follow the "tradition" of the elders. Yeshua tells them exactly what this false custom means to God.

"He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." Mark 7:6

The customs that the Jews had developed were in direct conflict with the Law. The reason why is because according to this custom of common, the Jews would not sit with a Gentile for fear of becoming unclean. Nowhere in the Scriptures is this taught.

"I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." Isaiah 42:6

The Scriptures teach that the Israelites were to be a light to the Nations. They were to teach the Nations about the One True God and to share His Law with everyone. However, the Israelites believed themselves to be too Holy to associate with the Gentiles, so their Law caused the Word of God to be of no effect. Paul confirms this in Romans, but there is a mistranslation that completely distorts what Paul is saying.

"I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean (koinos) of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean (koinos), to him it is unclean (koinos)." Romans 14:14

This verse is always used to either prove Paul did away with the food Laws, or to prove that he was a false Apostle. The fact is, Paul never said that nothing is "unclean", he said nothing is "common". To put it bluntly, Paul never said it was okay to eat pork.

Paul was a Pharisees who was determined to destroy the Christians. On his way to Damascus to prosecute more Christians, he was stopped by a blinding light. The first thing Paul says when he falls to the ground is "Lord, what will thou have me to do". It took about one second for God to turn the heart of the biggest enemy of the Church. He immediately began preaching the Gospel: that God has sent His Son Yeshua to fulfill the Law and destroy Death for all of mankind. Yeshua accomplished this task just as scheduled. The wages of sin is death, but Yeshua destroyed Death and we are no longer condemned under the Law. That doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the Law, it means that the condemnation for breaking the Law is abolished because of the Grace God has bestowed on humanity. That is what Paul is saying in Galations. The Law still stands and it is holy, just, and good. But the wages of breaking the Law have been paid for everyone, so nobody is justified by the Law. We follow the Law because we love God and for no other reason.

I have much more to defend Paul, because I believed for a long time that he was a false Apostle. But when I looked deeper into the Greek, I noticed that Paul was not saying what Fundamental Christianity teaches. Paul never once contradicts the Old Covenant, our Bibles do. Since the Scriptures tell us that God IS Love, then how could a false Apostle write this beautiful description of our Father?

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not Love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not Love, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not Love, it profiteth me nothing.
Love suffereth long, and is kind; Love envieth not; Love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, Love, these three; but the greatest of these is Love." 1 Corinthians 13

Thank you good friend. I hope to hear from you soon.
TheWORDisLIFE
Posts: 1,071
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6/1/2015 11:14:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
1. God only loves the Israelites (African Americans, Latinos & Native Americans)

2. God hates the other nations especially Esau (if God was love like the Christians say, there would be no hate, war, etc.... there would only be love)

3. God hates sinners and sin

4. Modern day Christians are not the real Christians, just like the so called "Jew-ish" people in Israel today are not the real Israelites

5. There are no contradictions in our History & Law book. If you are not the so called "African American Latino or Native American, then you will never understand the Bible because it was only written to the Israelites, for the Israelites, by the Israelites. The Bible is a mystery and if you don't read it as it tells you to read it, you will never understand it.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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6/1/2015 11:31:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 6:22:02 AM, Kryptic wrote:

My questions...

1. Why do Christians REJECT logical and reasonable though?

That's usually the result of two things, one is religious indoctrination, which is what you were going through with Christians, especially the part about the Holy Spirit. Indoctrination is when you are taught things but are told not to question them, just like when they told you not to question. Hence, Christians live in a world of beliefs rather than understanding, which is why they will logic and reason in favor of their unquestionable beliefs.

The second is usually a result of a mental disorder.

2. Why do I see most Christians being the gossiping / bitter people.

Christians live a life of unquestionable beliefs that don't match up with reality, hence they are forced to live a lie and their subconscious minds know it and it causes turmoil within them, thus they turn to their religion which just makes matters worse.

3. Why do I see so many wars over what god is true?

Religions have always tended to cause conflict and wars throughout all of history. Again, this goes back to unquestionable beliefs and how much people are willing to die or kill for those beliefs.

4. Why do we still only look to a book to describe everything?

It would be foolish to do so considering how much knowledge and information is available.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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6/1/2015 12:04:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 6:22:02 AM, Kryptic wrote:
1. Why do Christians REJECT logical and reasonable though?
2. Why do I see most Christians being the gossiping / bitter people.
3. Why do I see so many wars over what god is true?
4. Why do we still only look to a book to describe everything?
5. Why is there SO MANY CONTRADICTIONS...? Love everyone, *Jesus says*... but gays, well they're gay

i was a believer for 30 years, the more i read the bible the more flaws and contradictions i found in it. here are the verses that i found and why i stopped believing the bible is "the word of GOD" i'll write what to look for, but i'll leave the interpretation up to you, because GOD isn't the author of confusion 1st corinthians 14:33

is slavery morally wrong? 1 peter 2:18,19 ; exodus 21:7-11
unchanging GOD? malachi 3:6
how to make a cult? numbers 31:15-18
GOD creates evil? isaih 45:7
unicorns? numbers 23:22 ; dueteronomy 33:17 ; job 39:9 ; isaih 34:7
killing babies? psalms 137:9
loving GOD? exodus 9:12
what was written 1st? genesis 14:14, OR judges 18:27 and judges 18:28-30

may harmony find you
Harikrish
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6/1/2015 2:10:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 11:03:43 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/1/2015 9:54:52 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 6/1/2015 7:36:53 AM, Kryptic wrote:


Hey Harikrish! I'm glad to see you here. I don't want to hijack this guy's thread to make it all about whether Paul was a false Apostle, but I would like to discuss this with you. Hopefully our conversation can help answer some of Kryptic's questions about what Paul meant in Galations 2:21.

You are correct that Paul dropped the Jewish traditions and customs. However, Paul did not drop the Law. The customs of the Jewish people had nothing to do with the Torah; they were from the Talmud, and the customs brought the Word of God to no effect. First, there is the tradition of washing hands before eating. This is not stated in the Torah, it was a custom that the Jewish people followed to abstain from what they called "common". The Torch never speaks of anything being common. There is clean (katharos) and unclean (akathartos) but common (koinos) is not mentioned.

"And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled (Greek koinos- common), that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders." Mark 7:2

The Pharisees judged the Disciples because they didn't follow the "tradition" of the elders. Yeshua tells them exactly what this false custom means to God.

"He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." Mark 7:6

The customs that the Jews had developed were in direct conflict with the Law. The reason why is because according to this custom of common, the Jews would not sit with a Gentile for fear of becoming unclean. Nowhere in the Scriptures is this taught.

"I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." Isaiah 42:6

The Scriptures teach that the Israelites were to be a light to the Nations. They were to teach the Nations about the One True God and to share His Law with everyone. However, the Israelites believed themselves to be too Holy to associate with the Gentiles, so their Law caused the Word of God to be of no effect. Paul confirms this in Romans, but there is a mistranslation that completely distorts what Paul is saying.

"I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean (koinos) of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean (koinos), to him it is unclean (koinos)." Romans 14:14

This verse is always used to either prove Paul did away with the food Laws, or to prove that he was a false Apostle. The fact is, Paul never said that nothing is "unclean", he said nothing is "common". To put it bluntly, Paul never said it was okay to eat pork.

Paul was a Pharisees who was determined to destroy the Christians. On his way to Damascus to prosecute more Christians, he was stopped by a blinding light. The first thing Paul says when he falls to the ground is "Lord, what will thou have me to do". It took about one second for God to turn the heart of the biggest enemy of the Church. He immediately began preaching the Gospel: that God has sent His Son Yeshua to fulfill the Law and destroy Death for all of mankind. Yeshua accomplished this task just as scheduled. The wages of sin is death, but Yeshua destroyed Death and we are no longer condemned under the Law. That doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the Law, it means that the condemnation for breaking the Law is abolished because of the Grace God has bestowed on humanity. That is what Paul is saying in Galations. The Law still stands and it is holy, just, and good. But the wages of breaking the Law have been paid for everyone, so nobody is justified by the Law. We follow the Law because we love God and for no other reason.

I have much more to defend Paul, because I believed for a long time that he was a false Apostle. But when I looked deeper into the Greek, I noticed that Paul was not saying what Fundamental Christianity teaches. Paul never once contradicts the Old Covenant, our Bibles do. Since the Scriptures tell us that God IS Love, then how could a false Apostle write this beautiful description of our Father?

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not Love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not Love, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not Love, it profiteth me nothing.
Love suffereth long, and is kind; Love envieth not; Love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, Love, these three; but the greatest of these is Love." 1 Corinthians 13

Thank you good friend. I hope to hear from you soon.

Paul did not know Jesus. He was a Jew a Pharisee and persecuted the early Hellenic Christians for not following the Jewish tradition and for their blasphemous belief in Jesus. But on the road to Damascus Jesus appeared to Paul and he had a conversion. He like Jesus kept the laws but did not demand it of Gentiles who converted to Christianity.
Paul wrote the first 13 books out of the 27 in the New Testament. The 4 Gospels were written much later. So Paul's influence and his Pauline theology is what spread Christianity outside of the Jewish borders. Paul was better educated than Jesus and most of the disciples and reached out to Gentiles. He was later known as the apostle of the Gentiles.
Kryptic
Posts: 30
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6/1/2015 3:37:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 11:03:43 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/1/2015 9:54:52 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 6/1/2015 7:36:53 AM, Kryptic wrote:


Hey Harikrish! I'm glad to see you here. I don't want to hijack this guy's thread to make it all about whether Paul was a false Apostle, but I would like to discuss this with you. Hopefully our conversation can help answer some of Kryptic's questions about what Paul meant in Galations 2:21.

You are correct that Paul dropped the Jewish traditions and customs. However, Paul did not drop the Law. The customs of the Jewish people had nothing to do with the Torah; they were from the Talmud, and the customs brought the Word of God to no effect. First, there is the tradition of washing hands before eating. This is not stated in the Torah, it was a custom that the Jewish people followed to abstain from what they called "common". The Torch never speaks of anything being common. There is clean (katharos) and unclean (akathartos) but common (koinos) is not mentioned.

Paul said to live with the law, not by it. he mentioned that the expression of the law would satisfy the completion of the commandments, however. he talked about grace and said that if you stuff up, you will be forgiven
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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6/1/2015 10:55:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 3:37:37 PM, Kryptic wrote:

If it's okay I'd like to explain the purpose of the Law. You seem to be interested in this particular subject, and hopefully I can show you why Paul did not contradict the Old Covenant and why he spoke of the Law in the manner that he did.

"Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known." Deuteronomy 11:26

The Law is for us. When we follow it, our lives are blessed because we follow the path of Good. If we disobey, we are cursed because we follow the path of Evil. God has given us the Knowledge of Good and Evil because He is making us in His Image, but we lack the Wisdom and Prudence to choose only Good. Yeshua fulfilled the Law because He was without sin, and then He took the full penalty for transgression against the Law as a Ransom for us.

Without the Law, there is no sin because there is no Knowledge of sin.

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:7

The Law is Good, as it shows us what is Good. To follow the Law completely is to live a Good life, but once we hear the commandment, sin revives and we die. Notice Paul speaks of this death in the present tense. This is because he is talking about living and dying Spiritually, just as the "eternal life" that Yeshua gives us is Spiritual.

Paul never said that we shouldn't follow the Law. He said that the Law couldn't save us because nobody could ever follow everything perfectly. That was until Yeshua came.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded IS death; but to be spiritually minded IS life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity (hatred) against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:1

You see, we who have received the Spirit are not judged according to the Law because we have received the Spirit of Life. We are judged because of our conscience. We are called to live a Righteous life, to live as Yeshua lived. And Yeshua followed every bit of the Law. Paul had to talk down about the Law so that we could understand the importance of Grace, but men have distorted his words, even to proclaim that to follow the Law is to sin. That is not what Paul was saying at all, as we just saw above.

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4

Paul confirms this.

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

To transgress the Law is to sin. God has given us Grace because of our sin, but that is not to say we should sin so that grace can abound.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Romans 6:1

Grace is so much more than mere forgiveness. We are told to forgive, because other people do us wrongly. However, nobody could technically do wrong to God, because He has determined all things to happen. So rather than forgiveness, God gives us Grace. Grace is a free gift. We do not deserve this free gift and we can never do anything to deserve it. Whether we believe or don't believe, God's Grace has been given to the entire world.

"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar" Romans 3:3

And again

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon all them that believe: for there is NO DIFFERENCE:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:22

We have all sinned and transgressed the Law. God knew we would before He ever created the world, that is why Yeshua and the Chosen were known before the foundation of the world. God knows the meaninglessness He has subjected us to, and His Grace is all part of His plan for us. However, Grace does not abolish the Law.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31

So you see, we don't follow the Law because we believe it makes us more Righteous or to give us something to boast about. Whether we are a believer or not, none of us have anything to boast about because everything that happens is of God.

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." Romans 3:27

"For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God:
NOT of works, lest any man should BOAST.
For we are his WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8

Paul could not have spoken against the Law, because to do so would contradict everything that the Torah teaches. Paul spoke spiritual lessons to us, and these things are impossible to understand with a Carnal mind. We must have the Spirit, and God gives this Spirit to whomever He chooses. At the Consummation of the Ages, God will raise all mankind and bestow His Spirit to us all.

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isaiah 26:9

Of course none of this even begins to cover what Paul was talking about. We would literally have to go over every bit of Romans and Galations to understand it all. I'm willing to do that if you need me to. Just remember three things when it comes to Paul. He never contradicts what the rest of Scriptures say, his letter use phrases such as "therefore" and "what shall we say then" in almost every sentence (so we must take the entire letter as a whole rather than choose specific verses), and the last thing to remember is that all the other Disciples accepted Paul, but Peter warns us

"...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." 2 Peter 3:15

Thank you Kryptic and God bless you friend.
Mhykiel
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6/1/2015 11:16:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 6:22:02 AM, Kryptic wrote:

1. Why do Christians REJECT logical and reasonable though?

the human brain is a wonderful piece of biological machinery. One of the ways it works is as neurons form and similar thoughts are thought, pathways become more efficient and established. Essentially our brains make us habitually attracted to shortcuts in thought. One saving grace is these subconscious or habits from environment and genes can be overridden by conscious thought choice.

As a general rule, people are illogical.

The same can be asked about many atheist.

2. Why do I see most Christians being the gossiping / bitter people.

You stated you live in a small town. I see gossiping and being bitter common traits in small populations of low means. Christian being a non- factor.

3. Why do I see so many wars over what god is true?

You should do more research on factors that lead to war. It is not religious difference.

4. Why do we still only look to a book to describe everything?

the bible is a book about a relationship between man and god. It doesn't have a history detail account of angels, demons, heaven, hell, trinity, ect...

Even about stuff in the theology it doesn't explain everything. So why would anyone extrude that to describing Everything in the universe.

Nature is the other book God wrote.

5. Why is there SO MANY CONTRADICTIONS...? Love everyone, *Jesus says*... but gays, well they're gay.

That is in the realm of Apologetics. But take for instance your example: gays. Disproving of a behavior is not disproving of a person. We can dislike thievery but still treat a thieve with respect and punishment.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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6/1/2015 11:45:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 2:10:31 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 6/1/2015 11:03:43 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/1/2015 9:54:52 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 6/1/2015 7:36:53 AM, Kryptic wrote:


Paul did not know Jesus. He was a Jew a Pharisee and persecuted the early Hellenic Christians for not following the Jewish tradition and for their blasphemous belief in Jesus. But on the road to Damascus Jesus appeared to Paul and he had a conversion. He like Jesus kept the laws but did not demand it of Gentiles who converted to Christianity.
Paul wrote the first 13 books out of the 27 in the New Testament. The 4 Gospels were written much later. So Paul's influence and his Pauline theology is what spread Christianity outside of the Jewish borders. Paul was better educated than Jesus and most of the disciples and reached out to Gentiles. He was later known as the apostle of the Gentiles.

Harikrish, my good friend, why do you continue to resist the Spirit? I know you was a Bible Scholar, and you know the Scriptures better than anyone I've met on here. Have I ever contradicted myself or the Scriptures? Please show me where, if you believe I have done so. Please provide Scriptural evidence of the claims you make against Paul and Yeshua. Every bit of Scripture is in complete harmony. Our Bibles do contradict because man has introduced His Philosophy into the translations. But the Logos of God does not contradict; He is the only God that has ever been presented Who has been proven trustworthy through His prophecies, and He is is the only God that can make any Logical sense. He has determined all things and He will gather together all things back to Himself. You know this my friend. You've read all about it. Psalms is the largest book in the Bible, and it consists of grown men pouring their hearts out to the God that has done all things and Loves His creation. What other god has given so much love that their followers felt compelled enough to speak of their love? What other god can say that they have changed the entire course of History? They have all perished, because God said He would destroy them.

"Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens." Jeremiah 10:11"

God is in complete control Harikrish. That might sound a little scary at first as it Causes us to strip away every inch of self righteousness and will, but when we understand this and the Love of God, we no longer have anything to ever worry about. We enter into His Rest.

"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his." Hebrews 4:9

"For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works WERE FINISHED from the foundation of the world." Hebrews 4:3

That is why Yeshua tells us to no longer worry about our lives. God has already finished His work, and now we patiently wait for His promises to be fulfilled.

"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matthew 6:25

God bless you friend.
Kryptic
Posts: 30
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6/2/2015 1:58:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 11:14:52 AM, TheWORDisLIFE wrote:
1. God only loves the Israelites (African Americans, Latinos & Native Americans)

2. God hates the other nations especially Esau (if God was love like the Christians say, there would be no hate, war, etc.... there would only be love)

3. God hates sinners and sin

4. Modern day Christians are not the real Christians, just like the so called "Jew-ish" people in Israel today are not the real Israelites

5. There are no contradictions in our History & Law book. If you are not the so called "African American Latino or Native American, then you will never understand the Bible because it was only written to the Israelites, for the Israelites, by the Israelites. The Bible is a mystery and if you don't read it as it tells you to read it, you will never understand it.

You have little knowledge of the gospels that paul went around to preach, as well as what the disciples had to say. so I won't bother argueing with that.
I am looking for educated and rational responses, not bigoted average answers
mfigurski80
Posts: 4
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6/2/2015 6:24:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
For 3

This is actually a real problem. The christian bible says to love one's neighbor, though he may be of different faith. The mjslim Koran wants Muslims to cooperate with others of different religions, and love your neighbor. As in, try to convert them by showing how good Islam/Christianity is. I don't know about the rest, but these two major competitors seem pretty compatible to me. They shouldn't be fighting for whatever reason, but they are. That's one of the bad parts of free will, people make mistakes...
bulproof
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6/2/2015 7:03:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/2/2015 1:58:37 AM, Kryptic wrote:
At 6/1/2015 11:14:52 AM, TheWORDisLIFE wrote:
1. God only loves the Israelites (African Americans, Latinos & Native Americans)

2. God hates the other nations especially Esau (if God was love like the Christians say, there would be no hate, war, etc.... there would only be love)

3. God hates sinners and sin

4. Modern day Christians are not the real Christians, just like the so called "Jew-ish" people in Israel today are not the real Israelites

5. There are no contradictions in our History & Law book. If you are not the so called "African American Latino or Native American, then you will never understand the Bible because it was only written to the Israelites, for the Israelites, by the Israelites. The Bible is a mystery and if you don't read it as it tells you to read it, you will never understand it.

You have little knowledge of the gospels that paul went around to preach, as well as what the disciples had to say. so I won't bother argueing with that.
I am looking for educated and rational responses, not bigoted average answers

The bibles didn't exist when Paul was preaching, try again.
BTW do you differentiate between the legit Paul stuff and the fake?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
TheWORDisLIFE
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6/2/2015 11:40:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/2/2015 1:58:37 AM, Kryptic wrote:
At 6/1/2015 11:14:52 AM, TheWORDisLIFE wrote:
1. God only loves the Israelites (African Americans, Latinos & Native Americans)

2. God hates the other nations especially Esau (if God was love like the Christians say, there would be no hate, war, etc.... there would only be love)

3. God hates sinners and sin

4. Modern day Christians are not the real Christians, just like the so called "Jew-ish" people in Israel today are not the real Israelites

5. There are no contradictions in our History & Law book. If you are not the so called "African American Latino or Native American, then you will never understand the Bible because it was only written to the Israelites, for the Israelites, by the Israelites. The Bible is a mystery and if you don't read it as it tells you to read it, you will never understand it.

You have little knowledge of the gospels that paul went around to preach, as well as what the disciples had to say. so I won't bother argueing with that.
I am looking for educated and rational responses, not bigoted average answers

Let's see how uneducated I am. What is love to God? What is sin?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/2/2015 5:20:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 6:22:02 AM, Kryptic wrote:
1. Why do Christians REJECT logical and reasonable thought?
It wasn't always so, Kryptic. During the Enlightenment, many Christians embraced logical and reasonable thought -- in fact, they were world leaders in it. But over time logical and reasonable thought lead away from many of the early beliefs underpinning Christianity: for example, geocentrism in astronomy, humanocentrism in cosmology, interventionism in physics, creationism in biology and geology, and a great deal of the Old Testament was demonstrated to be historically unsupportable.

So now Christians face the unenviable task of refitting their faith with the facts. That has produced a range of responses, from treating Jesus as an inspirational ideal of uncertain historicity, to ignoring the facts.

2. Why do I see most Christians being the gossiping / bitter people.
This might be religious paternalism: the idea that someone of religious faith knows what's good for you better than you do. This principle is written into many forms of monotheism (though not all.) It means that despite their protestations of love and tolerance, monotheists spend a lot of time critiquing and interfering with people outside their faith (and even other monotheists.)

3. Why do I see so many wars over what god is true?
Wars are usually over greed, Kryptic -- either one's own, or someone else's. But religiosity can inflame greed -- in particular, religiosity has a complex, long-standing relationship with nationalism, which I sketched in a post here [http://www.debate.org...]. Nationalism comes with a high sense of entitlement, self-importance and disrespect of others. Religious doctrine (and certain kinds of religious sermons) can inflame that, driving nationalistic wars to some appalling excesses -- frequently seen in civilian persecutions, forced conversions, ethnic cleansings and other human rights abuses.

4. Why do we still only look to a book to describe everything?
Religion frequently claims moral authority: i.e. the right to order the lives of others. That claim to authority can come in several forms, but the simplest way is to assign ancient writings greater wisdom and truth than they can actually demonstrate. This requires reading meaning and interpretation into them that cannot be substantiated by the history of the writings themselves. However, it's actually quite easy to do that, for the same reason that it's easy to invent new meaning for tarot-cards, horoscopes, or yarrow-stalks. But the great benefit of doing so is that moral authority brings political power, and that brings wealth and privilege to you and those of your faith, at the cost of people outside your faith.

I mentioned earlier that religion has a long and complex relationship with nationalism. I think this is part of it.

5. Why is there SO MANY CONTRADICTIONS...? Love everyone, *Jesus says*... but gays, well they're gay
Claims to moral authority are either based on physical evidence and supported by independent scrutiny, or else they're corrupt and self-serving. Corrupt and self-serving claims are bound to contain contradictions and evasions. Theological claims to moral authority are not evidence-based, so theology shifts them to whatever people will accept at the time. The Old Testament, for example, is believed by historians to have been written over a period of six hundred years, by four sources. Its own ideas changed as Israelite identity changed. Then it was reinterpreted again by gentile Europeans for their purposes.

In modern times, nobody lives by the full spectrum of customs outlined in the Old Testament. They'd be jailed in any Christian country where they endeavoured to do so. Nonetheless, some Christians find (or at least seek) political advantage by cherry-picking Old Testament elements, and asserting them as traditional moral authorities. They do this for corrupt and self-serving reasons they seldom acknowledge, and may not fully be aware of -- but essentially, the more arbitrary scriptural authority you can get others to accept, the more power and influence it gives your faith.

I hope that may assist.
Sooner
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7/20/2015 7:57:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
1. Why do Christians REJECT logical and reasonable though?
2. Why do I see most Christians being the gossiping / bitter people.
3. Why do I see so many wars over what god is true?
4. Why do we still only look to a book to describe everything?
5. Why is there SO MANY CONTRADICTIONS...? Love everyone, *Jesus says*... but gays, well they're ga

RESPONSE:
1)You've made a black and white statement. You are fully aware that not all Christians are identical or unable to use logic. There are Christian brain surgeons, rocket scientists, and inventors. Denying logic is a part of every group. To search for deeper meaning beyond science is very logical. To understand that a possible creator does not answer to science is logical. A programmer does not answer to the boundries he sets inside a video game.
2)Black and white viewpoint again. Not all Christians posses biterness or gossiping traits. Those traits apply to all of humanity. It is possible you knew of some hypocritical Christian claiming gossip, and their hypocrisy angered you, maybe even confused your beliefs, shook them, etc., and for some reason, your resentment of them lead you to have a shielded, angered viewpoint towards Christianity, but in reality, they are your subconscious target.
3)Most wars have had no direct "god" influence. WWII was civilized humanity vs. a drug endeuced psycopath who had visions of ruling Earth, and making an Arion race. He did not attend church every Sunday. -Gulf War: Iraq invaded Kuwait. The U.S. drove them out. Oil was probably the war's cause. Vietnam, Korea, not religious based.

Arabs and Jews have always hated each other. Land is the dispute. God is an excuse to fight each other.

Islam is a religion of madness. No other mainstream religion seriously threatens world peace or your life. Christianity and Islam are nothing alike. Most religions' peoples don't see killing others as okay. Islam is a human freak show in this reguard, but they are not the poster child for all religion. Most religions' peoples have no desire for conflict.
4)Black and white stance again. Many Christians don't even know what the Bible says. Some take the Old Testament as symbolic, kryptic, parabalistic, and very little of it as actual history. Some Christians believe in Evolution, that God created it to come up with random things, he observed, and found randomness created free thinking people capable of choice. When one loves him willingly the beauty and value is uncreatable. To give specific traits intentionally makes that person less "real" and a slave to their "designed" traits.
5)jesus never mentioned homosexuality. He forgave and accepted a prostitute. If God is a judge, seeing that NO ONE is perfect, homosexuals would be judged individually like everyone else. No preacher judges anyone in the Bible. Only God himself. Jesus seemed to freely give compassion, mercy, and forgiveness in the Bible.
If you read the Sodom and Gamorah story for yourself(perhaps google it), you'll find that the sexuality of only a few of its people is known. It even specifically states why God destroyed them. Homosexuality isn't listed by name. "Sexual sins" has been interpreted with a stretch. Sexual sin covers many nonhomosexual things. No one truely could know how a god would view each individual. And some view the story as parabalistic, to teach a complex idea in more simplistic terms. Who could know?

Let me introduce myself to you. I had your same experience, but am much older now, do not state any belief as fact, but do on rare occassion speak to God, if you will, and I hide nothing. If He's there, He knows, so being honest with him seems logical. Perhaps he appreciates the ugly truth more than someone saying in prayer what they think he wants to hear. Vast study has concluded me this. Anything is possible. I can prove or disprove any idea or philosophy all day long. I choose to hope a god exists and that if he can not judge a prostitute, then I can trust his heart. If no god exists perhaps Evolution will recreate your conscience. It did it once apparently. Why not twice? Perhaps your story will never end one way or the other. Hopefully this was worth your time. Good luck.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.