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Why do you believe in god

Arcanas
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6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm a bored atheist. What reason do people have for believing in god? I've yet to see a reasonable argument. And yes, I've looked at arguments from debaters/philosophers so it is not like I am uninformed on this topic.

On a side note, is it grammatically correct to capitalize the g in god? Why or why not?
lililose
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6/3/2015 12:12:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Let's talk logically..
My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that "this is a pen", for the opposite person to say, "it is not a pen", he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say "there is no God", he should at least know the concept of God.
Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur"an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, "the creator of that object." Some may say "the producer" while others may say "the manufacturer." What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don"t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

As a muslim let's use scientific knowledge to prove the Qur"an and hence prove the existence of God..
In mathematics there is a theory known as "Theory of Probability". If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12"%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur"an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur"an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur"an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur"an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur"an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur"an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur"an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur"an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur"an is Divine.
The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the "CREATOR", the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is "God", or more appropriate in the Arabic language, "ALLAH".
Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small "g" that is fake god) but God (with a capital "G").

Read this please
Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]
Accipiter
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6/3/2015 12:43:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM, Arcanas wrote:
I'm a bored atheist. What reason do people have for believing in god? I've yet to see a reasonable argument. And yes, I've looked at arguments from debaters/philosophers so it is not like I am uninformed on this topic.

On a side note, is it grammatically correct to capitalize the g in god? Why or why not?

Yeah, don't expect much truth here. No one is going to say because they were trained to believe it from birth.
Arcanas
Posts: 198
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6/3/2015 11:37:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 12:12:57 AM, lililose wrote:
Let's talk logically..

Okie
My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that "this is a pen", for the opposite person to say, "it is not a pen", he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say "there is no God", he should at least know the concept of God.

Atheism is the rejection of theistic claims, not the claim that there is no God.
Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur"an is a revelation of God.

Go for it.
If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object?
Probably me, as I'm apparently the only one who knows about it
After little bit of thinking, he will reply, "the creator of that object."

Oh. I thought you said no one has heard of it or seen it before I had? If someone created it then people HAVE seen it.

Some may say "the producer" while others may say "the manufacturer." What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don"t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

Lol the analogy didn't sven make sense...

As a muslim let's use scientific knowledge to prove the Qur"an and hence prove the existence of God..
Go for it
In mathematics there is a theory known as "Theory of Probability". If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12"%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.
Cool?

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur"an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur"an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.
Go for it, so far no argument has been made and we're a couple paragraphs in...

At the time when the Qur"an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur"an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur"an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur"an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur"an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

No, because some things are more likely than others. Unicorns either exist or they don't, but it's not a 50/50 chance. There are other factors you need to consider when calculating probability.


The Qur"an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur"an is Divine.
The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the "CREATOR", the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is "God", or more appropriate in the Arabic language, "ALLAH".
Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small "g" that is fake god) but God (with a capital "G").

Read this please
Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

This argument doesn't make much sense. The first part is not really needed and the other half shows a lack of understanding in basic probability. Cute try.
12_13
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6/3/2015 12:54:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM, Arcanas wrote:
What reason do people have for believing in god?

1. Bible
2. World and people exists like Bible tells
Arcanas
Posts: 198
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6/3/2015 12:56:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 12:54:45 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM, Arcanas wrote:
What reason do people have for believing in god?

1. Bible
2. World and people exists like Bible tells

Why does that make you believe in god?
12_13
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6/3/2015 1:05:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 12:56:48 PM, Arcanas wrote:
At 6/3/2015 12:54:45 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM, Arcanas wrote:
What reason do people have for believing in god?

1. Bible
2. World and people exists like Bible tells

Why does that make you believe in god?

In my opinion Bible tells things that people wouldn"t write without God"s influence.

For example how Jews will be scattered and later gathered as nowadays is happening.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

I don"t believe Jews could have survived till this day without God, if we look all the persecution that they have experienced.

One reason why I believe also is that in my opinion Bible tells the truth about people the way that is not typical for humans.

And one reason is also that Bible has great explanation for things that we can see in nature (great mountains, Grand Canyon, oil fields.. http://www.kolumbus.fi...).

In my opinion people are generally too evil and non loving to develop Bible without God.
Skepticalone
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6/3/2015 1:11:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 1:05:20 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/3/2015 12:56:48 PM, Arcanas wrote:
At 6/3/2015 12:54:45 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM, Arcanas wrote:
What reason do people have for believing in god?

1. Bible
2. World and people exists like Bible tells

Why does that make you believe in god?

In my opinion Bible tells things that people wouldn"t write without God"s influence.

For example how Jews will be scattered and later gathered as nowadays is happening.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

I don"t believe Jews could have survived till this day without God, if we look all the persecution that they have experienced.

Could we not also argue that their belief in god caused most, if not all, of their persecution?

One reason why I believe also is that in my opinion Bible tells the truth about people the way that is not typical for humans.

And one reason is also that Bible has great explanation for things that we can see in nature (great mountains, Grand Canyon, oil fields.. http://www.kolumbus.fi...).

In my opinion people are generally too evil and non loving to develop Bible without God.
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DanneJeRusse
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6/3/2015 2:40:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 12:12:57 AM, lililose wrote:
Let's talk logically..
My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?"

The answer would have to be a another question, one of clarity, "Which God do you refer?"

For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that "this is a pen", for the opposite person to say, "it is not a pen", he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say "there is no God", he should at least know the concept of God.

Your analogy fails simply because you are holding up a real object, a pen, and then comparing the real object to a God. That's a fallacy.

And of course, the meaning of God is something no two religions and often even within those religions find any agreement.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur"an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, "the creator of that object." Some may say "the producer" while others may say "the manufacturer." What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don"t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

Sorry, but there are other alternatives to those conclusions. The first thing one does before making such conclusions is to examine the object, first. It can then be determined whether the object is part of nature or was assembled, such as a machine.

As a muslim let's use scientific knowledge to prove the Qur"an and hence prove the existence of God..
In mathematics there is a theory known as "Theory of Probability". If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12"%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur"an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur"an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

Whoa! What does that mean, what exactly are you talking about? Are you saying that the information in the Quran was never known before? That would be false, there's plenty in the Quran that was known before the Quran was created.

Your use of probability theory here makes no sense. How can anyone guess what's written in a book before the book was written? Meaningless.

At the time when the Qur"an was revealed, people thought the world was flat

And, long after the Quran was written, people still believed the world was flat. Some still do today.

there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth.

That makes no sense, you're just making up numbers that have nothing to do with how the shape of the Earth was believed.

The Qur"an rightly says it is spherical

No, the Quran does not say the Earth is spherical, it says the Earth is spread out like a carpet. Carpets are flat.

Not only that, Greek scholars knew the Earth was spherical hundreds of years before the Quran

if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur"an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

The Quran calls the moon a "light" and the sun a "lamp", it says nothing about reflected light.

Again, Greek astronomers knew the moon reflected light centuries before the Quran.


Further, the Qur"an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur"an rightly says that everything is made up of water.

Every living thing is made up of a number of elements from the Periodic table, but that doesn't mean it's entire physiology is a construct of any given element, but instead a combined necessity for all of them.

Continued...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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6/3/2015 2:45:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Every l If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

Your "guesses" were based on false premises as was your use of probability theory.



The Qur"an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation.

Hundreds? So far, your few examples here were false, so it would stand to reason you need to present the "hundreds" you claim are valid.

Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur"an is Divine.
The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the "CREATOR", the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is "God", or more appropriate in the Arabic language, "ALLAH".
Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small "g" that is fake god) but God (with a capital "G").

Read this please
Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

Thank you for the Islamic propaganda. It serves to show little more than dishonesty and fabrications.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Geogeer
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6/3/2015 2:53:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM, Arcanas wrote:
I'm a bored atheist. What reason do people have for believing in god? I've yet to see a reasonable argument. And yes, I've looked at arguments from debaters/philosophers so it is not like I am uninformed on this topic.

There are many reasons, but for today I'll say beauty and saints.

On a side note, is it grammatically correct to capitalize the g in god? Why or why not?

If you are talking about the monotheistic God yes because it is treated as a proper name. In the same way He and His should also be capitalized.
Kyle_the_Heretic
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6/3/2015 2:58:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM, Arcanas wrote:
I'm a bored atheist. What reason do people have for believing in god? I've yet to see a reasonable argument. And yes, I've looked at arguments from debaters/philosophers so it is not like I am uninformed on this topic.

Empirical evidence of God defeats the required faith, so anyone that can provide empirical evidence of God has only proven that he is a phony.

Spiritual evidence is mocked and dismissed, and therefore inadmissible toward any reason you would accept.

This is clearly a post for a "bored atheist" to bash belief. What's the point in taking the bait?

On a side note, is it grammatically correct to capitalize the g in god? Why or why not?

Depends on how the word is used.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
kasmic
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6/3/2015 3:15:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Empirical evidence of God defeats the required faith, so anyone that can provide empirical evidence of God has only proven that he is a phony.

Spiritual evidence is mocked and dismissed, and therefore inadmissible toward any reason you would accept.

This is clearly a post for a "bored atheist" to bash belief. What's the point in taking the bait?

Well said.
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UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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6/3/2015 3:26:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 3:14:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I believe in God because the universe is indicative of an intelligent design.

It seems to me that the post immediately above your's calls you a phony because you are citing an empirical reason for believing in God. I just found that interesting.
Accipiter
Posts: 1,165
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6/3/2015 3:29:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 12:54:45 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM, Arcanas wrote:
What reason do people have for believing in god?

1. Bible
2. World and people exists like Bible tells

Can you give me some real life examples where the world and people exist like the Bible tells?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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6/3/2015 3:29:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 3:26:07 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:14:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I believe in God because the universe is indicative of an intelligent design.

It seems to me that the post immediately above your's calls you a phony because you are citing an empirical reason for believing in God. I just found that interesting.

He's making an incorrect generalization that anyone who believes in God must do so out of blind faith.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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6/3/2015 3:38:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 3:29:43 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:26:07 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:14:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I believe in God because the universe is indicative of an intelligent design.

It seems to me that the post immediately above your's calls you a phony because you are citing an empirical reason for believing in God. I just found that interesting.

He's making an incorrect generalization that anyone who believes in God must do so out of blind faith.

I agree with you, but I'm curious how you two would resolve that difference, or rather, that attack on you as a believer.
Accipiter
Posts: 1,165
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6/3/2015 3:40:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 1:05:20 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/3/2015 12:56:48 PM, Arcanas wrote:
At 6/3/2015 12:54:45 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM, Arcanas wrote:
What reason do people have for believing in god?

1. Bible
2. World and people exists like Bible tells

Why does that make you believe in god?

In my opinion Bible tells things that people wouldn"t write without God"s influence.

For example how Jews will be scattered and later gathered as nowadays is happening.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

I don"t believe Jews could have survived till this day without God, if we look all the persecution that they have experienced.

One reason why I believe also is that in my opinion Bible tells the truth about people the way that is not typical for humans.

And one reason is also that Bible has great explanation for things that we can see in nature (great mountains, Grand Canyon, oil fields.. http://www.kolumbus.fi...).

In my opinion people are generally too evil and non loving to develop Bible without God.

The bible is filled to the brim with evil and non loving things, what the hell is wrong with you?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/3/2015 3:42:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 1:05:20 PM, 12_13 wrote:
I don"t believe Jews could have survived till this day without God, if we look all the persecution that they have experienced.
Or Judaism, at least, 12_13. I think Jewish monotheism (and the nationalism it sustained) have likely been critical to Jewish cultural survival through the vicissitudes of landlessness, occupation, and repeated attempts at forced assimilation and ethnic cleansing.

It's also significant that three other cultures -- Christian Romans, Muslim Arabs, and Baha'i Persians have 'borrowed' the Jewish deity for their own nationalistic purposes (though the Baha'i borrowed Dharmic figures too.)

But notwithstanding that, if you believe the Jewish accounts of their relationship itself with God, I often wonder whether they'd be better off in a universe without one. :)
Accipiter
Posts: 1,165
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6/3/2015 3:47:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM, Arcanas wrote:
I'm a bored atheist. What reason do people have for believing in god? I've yet to see a reasonable argument. And yes, I've looked at arguments from debaters/philosophers so it is not like I am uninformed on this topic.

On a side note, is it grammatically correct to capitalize the g in god? Why or why not?

I don't capitalize it because god doesn't deserve a capital letter.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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6/3/2015 3:54:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 3:26:07 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:14:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I believe in God because the universe is indicative of an intelligent design.

It seems to me that the post immediately above your's calls you a phony because you are citing an empirical reason for believing in God. I just found that interesting.

Not calling him a phony. Calling the god for which empirical evidence (not empirical reason) was presented a phony.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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6/3/2015 3:55:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 3:38:42 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:29:43 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:26:07 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:14:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I believe in God because the universe is indicative of an intelligent design.

It seems to me that the post immediately above your's calls you a phony because you are citing an empirical reason for believing in God. I just found that interesting.

He's making an incorrect generalization that anyone who believes in God must do so out of blind faith.

I agree with you, but I'm curious how you two would resolve that difference, or rather, that attack on you as a believer.

He would need to support his claim that empirical evidence acts as a disqualifier for faith in God. If he's equivocating faith with blind faith then he might have a point. "Faith" is just another term for belief.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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6/3/2015 3:58:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 3:29:43 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:26:07 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:14:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I believe in God because the universe is indicative of an intelligent design.

It seems to me that the post immediately above your's calls you a phony because you are citing an empirical reason for believing in God. I just found that interesting.

He's making an incorrect generalization that anyone who believes in God must do so out of blind faith.

Not an incorrect generalization at all. Evidence does not require faith, and yet faith is required. Evidence of God's hand follows belief, it does not precede it.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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6/3/2015 4:03:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 3:58:56 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:29:43 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:26:07 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:14:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I believe in God because the universe is indicative of an intelligent design.

It seems to me that the post immediately above your's calls you a phony because you are citing an empirical reason for believing in God. I just found that interesting.

He's making an incorrect generalization that anyone who believes in God must do so out of blind faith.

Not an incorrect generalization at all. Evidence does not require faith, and yet faith is required. Evidence of God's hand follows belief, it does not precede it.

So you need to believe in God before you can see evidence for God?
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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6/3/2015 4:08:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:03:19 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:58:56 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:29:43 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:26:07 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:14:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I believe in God because the universe is indicative of an intelligent design.

It seems to me that the post immediately above your's calls you a phony because you are citing an empirical reason for believing in God. I just found that interesting.

He's making an incorrect generalization that anyone who believes in God must do so out of blind faith.

Not an incorrect generalization at all. Evidence does not require faith, and yet faith is required. Evidence of God's hand follows belief, it does not precede it.

So you need to believe in God before you can see evidence for God?

No. One need's to believe in God or greater intelligence before they can accept a Creator. Otherwise, they simply see the results of an uncontrolled event.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/3/2015 4:13:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 12:54:45 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/2/2015 7:26:03 PM, Arcanas wrote:
What reason do people have for believing in god?

1. Bible
2. World and people exists like Bible tells

So....by that logic--actually, lack thereof--I could safely and equally justifiably make the following statement.........

Why do I believe in Zeus?

1--All those thousands of pages of Greek mythology (More writings by far then your bible, BTW)

2--World exists like Greek Mythology says..but with the Gods up above us on Mount Olympus. (Which, just as you guys say about Ararat, has really been discovered.)

3--World DOES NOT exist as Bible says. They thought it to be flat. And the center of the cosmos. And only 6000 years old. Cosmology and geology have long ago disproved all that nonsense.

Got anything else?

LOL.

Peace.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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6/3/2015 4:24:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:08:46 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:03:19 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:58:56 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:29:43 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:26:07 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 6/3/2015 3:14:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I believe in God because the universe is indicative of an intelligent design.

It seems to me that the post immediately above your's calls you a phony because you are citing an empirical reason for believing in God. I just found that interesting.

He's making an incorrect generalization that anyone who believes in God must do so out of blind faith.

Not an incorrect generalization at all. Evidence does not require faith, and yet faith is required. Evidence of God's hand follows belief, it does not precede it.

So you need to believe in God before you can see evidence for God?

No. One need's to believe in God or greater intelligence before they can accept a Creator. Otherwise, they simply see the results of an uncontrolled event.

That wasn't the claim. You said that faith in God is required before considering evidence of God. Evidence is what supports belief in anything. A person can be undecided about God's existence and be convinced by the evidence. If the evidence seems to be a product of intelligent design, an intelligent designer is inferred. Wallah, grounds for faith in God without presupposing God's existence.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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6/3/2015 4:36:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:24:00 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

So you need to believe in God before you can see evidence for God?

No. One need's to believe in God or greater intelligence before they can accept a Creator. Otherwise, they simply see the results of an uncontrolled event.

That wasn't the claim. You said that faith in God is required before considering evidence of God. Evidence is what supports belief in anything. A person can be undecided about God's existence and be convinced by the evidence. If the evidence seems to be a product of intelligent design, an intelligent designer is inferred. Wallah, grounds for faith in God without presupposing God's existence.

I disagree. There is no irrefutable empirical evidence of God's existence. We can say that all things denote there is a God, but an atheist can say that isn't true, and we cannot empirically prove otherwise.

Without a belief in God, there is no "evidence" to consider. There is only that which is natural. One can wonder about nature, and if an intelligent hand were involved. But that is not evidence leading to a belief in God, it is curiosity leading to the consideration of a possibility of God's existence, which cannot be verified empirically.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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6/3/2015 4:39:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:36:38 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:24:00 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

So you need to believe in God before you can see evidence for God?

No. One need's to believe in God or greater intelligence before they can accept a Creator. Otherwise, they simply see the results of an uncontrolled event.

That wasn't the claim. You said that faith in God is required before considering evidence of God. Evidence is what supports belief in anything. A person can be undecided about God's existence and be convinced by the evidence. If the evidence seems to be a product of intelligent design, an intelligent designer is inferred. Wallah, grounds for faith in God without presupposing God's existence.

I disagree. There is no irrefutable empirical evidence of God's existence. We can say that all things denote there is a God, but an atheist can say that isn't true, and we cannot empirically prove otherwise.

Without a belief in God, there is no "evidence" to consider. There is only that which is natural. One can wonder about nature, and if an intelligent hand were involved. But that is not evidence leading to a belief in God, it is curiosity leading to the consideration of a possibility of God's existence, which cannot be verified empirically.

It doesn't need to be irrefutable - all it needs is to merit belief in absence of belief. Grounds for belief is subjective.