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Are works necessary for salvation?

Skepticalone
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6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?

James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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6/3/2015 1:40:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?

Yes.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,292
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6/3/2015 2:02:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

What he said.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,136
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6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved? If he could be saved in such a situation, then works are not necessary. On the other hand, if he could not have been saved then would it just be a lost cause at that point? I extend this reply to Geogeer and Kyle_the_Heretic, and I look forward to your (collective) response.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
TheWORDisLIFE
Posts: 1,071
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6/3/2015 5:14:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?

Know what's funny? Christians are saying yes, works are necessary for salvation but the works are keeping the commandments/laws (in exception of animal sacrifice). Then when they find out what the works of The Most High God are, they say you don't need to do the commandments because Christ destroyed them lol.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,292
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6/3/2015 5:48:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved? If he could be saved in such a situation, then works are not necessary. On the other hand, if he could not have been saved then would it just be a lost cause at that point? I extend this reply to Geogeer and Kyle_the_Heretic, and I look forward to your (collective) response.

As they say hard cases make bad law.

You'll get different answers if you ask Catholics and Protestants. However, I would argue that Sanctification is a lifelong process. If God is love we must lose our life to be united in God. For some this is a red martyrdom where their blood is required. For some it is a white martyrdom where we grow in love for God through the daily giving of ourselves for others.

Now we also have the parable of the men who went to work in the vineyard. Those who worked all day and those who only worked a bit all got rewarded with a full day's pay. So God cares as to the state of your soul at the end of the day.

So a work is necessary for the person to be saved, but there is no work that the person can accomplish - or is there? If, at the final moment of life, the person made a perfect act of contrition it is believed that they can be saved. Their perfect sorrow and regret for all their sins could be that act. If the person would willingly run to the nearest priest and beg for baptism and/or confession right there and then with full faith in God for salvation - if he were not about to perish - then I believe that he would be granted salvation.

Now this is difficult because as one hardens one's heart through life to God, it would be almost impossible to make this perfect act of contrition.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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6/4/2015 12:55:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved? If he could be saved in such a situation, then works are not necessary. On the other hand, if he could not have been saved then would it just be a lost cause at that point? I extend this reply to Geogeer and Kyle_the_Heretic, and I look forward to your (collective) response.

The verses are an explanation, when you get over that bit, I will get over the rest
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,136
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6/4/2015 1:29:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:55:47 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved? If he could be saved in such a situation, then works are not necessary. On the other hand, if he could not have been saved then would it just be a lost cause at that point? I extend this reply to Geogeer and Kyle_the_Heretic, and I look forward to your (collective) response.


The verses are an explanation, when you get over that bit, I will get over the rest

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God"s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Titus 3:5

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Sorry John, but you will need to do some explaining of your own. There are verses which can lead one to a different conclusion.

I had always considered the most reasonable position to be 'faith is all that is needed'. Works will come about because of this faith, but they are not a prerequisite to the afterlife.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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6/4/2015 1:32:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:29:55 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:47 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved? If he could be saved in such a situation, then works are not necessary. On the other hand, if he could not have been saved then would it just be a lost cause at that point? I extend this reply to Geogeer and Kyle_the_Heretic, and I look forward to your (collective) response.


The verses are an explanation, when you get over that bit, I will get over the rest

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God"s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Titus 3:5

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Sorry John, but you will need to do some explaining of your own. There are verses which can lead one to a different conclusion.

I had always considered the most reasonable position to be 'faith is all that is needed'. Works will come about because of this faith, but they are not a prerequisite to the afterlife.

Maybe

Maybe that's what Jesus's death meant. That he paid the price for our sins so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish. ~

I'm not an expert
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,136
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6/4/2015 3:49:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:32:31 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/4/2015 1:29:55 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:47 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved? If he could be saved in such a situation, then works are not necessary. On the other hand, if he could not have been saved then would it just be a lost cause at that point? I extend this reply to Geogeer and Kyle_the_Heretic, and I look forward to your (collective) response.


The verses are an explanation, when you get over that bit, I will get over the rest

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God"s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Titus 3:5

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Sorry John, but you will need to do some explaining of your own. There are verses which can lead one to a different conclusion.

I had always considered the most reasonable position to be 'faith is all that is needed'. Works will come about because of this faith, but they are not a prerequisite to the afterlife.

Maybe

Maybe that's what Jesus's death meant. That he paid the price for our sins so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish. ~

I'm not an expert

Fair enough, John. I have always wondered why there is so much controversy over this subject. Thanks for exploring it with me.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Geogeer
Posts: 4,292
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6/4/2015 4:09:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 3:49:36 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 1:32:31 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/4/2015 1:29:55 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:47 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved? If he could be saved in such a situation, then works are not necessary. On the other hand, if he could not have been saved then would it just be a lost cause at that point? I extend this reply to Geogeer and Kyle_the_Heretic, and I look forward to your (collective) response.


The verses are an explanation, when you get over that bit, I will get over the rest

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God"s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Titus 3:5

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Sorry John, but you will need to do some explaining of your own. There are verses which can lead one to a different conclusion.

I had always considered the most reasonable position to be 'faith is all that is needed'. Works will come about because of this faith, but they are not a prerequisite to the afterlife.

Maybe

Maybe that's what Jesus's death meant. That he paid the price for our sins so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish. ~

I'm not an expert

Fair enough, John. I have always wondered why there is so much controversy over this subject. Thanks for exploring it with me.

There is controversy because it was one of the tenants of the protestant reformation. It is a fundamental shift in Christian teaching meaning one side will lead to heaven and the other to hell.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,136
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6/4/2015 4:30:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 4:09:18 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/4/2015 3:49:36 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 1:32:31 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/4/2015 1:29:55 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:47 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved? If he could be saved in such a situation, then works are not necessary. On the other hand, if he could not have been saved then would it just be a lost cause at that point? I extend this reply to Geogeer and Kyle_the_Heretic, and I look forward to your (collective) response.


The verses are an explanation, when you get over that bit, I will get over the rest

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God"s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Titus 3:5

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Sorry John, but you will need to do some explaining of your own. There are verses which can lead one to a different conclusion.

I had always considered the most reasonable position to be 'faith is all that is needed'. Works will come about because of this faith, but they are not a prerequisite to the afterlife.

Maybe

Maybe that's what Jesus's death meant. That he paid the price for our sins so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish. ~

I'm not an expert

Fair enough, John. I have always wondered why there is so much controversy over this subject. Thanks for exploring it with me.

There is controversy because it was one of the tenants of the protestant reformation. It is a fundamental shift in Christian teaching meaning one side will lead to heaven and the other to hell.

Yes, of course, but I have never understood the dogmatic fights over this issue. Both sides agree faith is necessary and works come through faith. The only difference between the two positions is one demands works. Are there actually any works a finite being could do to earn their way into the abode of an infinite being? I would think not. Therefore, mandatory works would seem to be an pacification rather than a sincere un-obligated desire. At least to me, but hey, what do I know? ;-)

On a side note - Do you think these two positions would have slightly different concepts of their God? (one being more forgiving- one being more demanding)
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/4/2015 5:06:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Before I could answer, I would ask that you define "salvation."

thank you.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
annanicole
Posts: 19,792
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6/4/2015 5:12:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved?

Unlikely, although as with all other cases, pardon is an executive act. He obviously wasn't baptized, thus as far as we know, his sins were not forgiven.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,792
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6/4/2015 5:15:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:29:55 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:47 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved? If he could be saved in such a situation, then works are not necessary. On the other hand, if he could not have been saved then would it just be a lost cause at that point? I extend this reply to Geogeer and Kyle_the_Heretic, and I look forward to your (collective) response.


The verses are an explanation, when you get over that bit, I will get over the rest

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God"s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Faith includes works, although it would not include works of human merit. In fact, faith itself is a work. Somebody did it. The "works" referenced in Ephesians 2 are the works of the Mosaic system, which Paul was adamantly opposing. No, one is not saved by those - and never was.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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6/4/2015 5:34:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Allegory often helps for controversies like this.

Some verses say grace is sufficient, and that's what saves us, not anything man can do.

Other verses say faith without works is dead, and man cannot be saved without performing those works.

Let's take farming as an example to explain the apparent contradiction.

Man has seeds and land. The seeds and land are provided by the grace of God, not by anything man has done. Man can produce the seeds, but he did not initially create them.

To obtain a harvest, which will ultimately help to "save" man from starvation, he must till the land, and plant the seeds. Despite the grace of God providing the land and the seeds, man must still do the work.

The seeds, and later crops, must be watered. Water is provided by the grace of God, man did not create it. Man must work to irrigate the land, because the water, provided by the grace of God, does him no good if he doesn't use it. The seeds fail to sprout, and the grace of God is wasted.

The crops must be harvested. By the grace of God, seeds become crops, but they don't harvest themselves. Man must do the work, or the grace of God is wasted on him.

If the crop is wheat, it must be processed. By the grace of God man has the wheat, but if he just stares at it, it profits him nothing, and it cannot save his life.

And the example goes on.

We are saved by the grace of God by nothing we have done. But we are still required to perform works in order to be saved.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,136
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6/5/2015 11:32:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 5:12:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved?

Unlikely, although as with all other cases, pardon is an executive act. He obviously wasn't baptized, thus as far as we know, his sins were not forgiven.

So, it requires more than faith to "legally" get into heaven? Do you think God would reject someone from heaven if they had not been baptized? That seems rather petty.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
annanicole
Posts: 19,792
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6/5/2015 11:34:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 11:32:00 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 5:12:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved?

Unlikely, although as with all other cases, pardon is an executive act. He obviously wasn't baptized, thus as far as we know, his sins were not forgiven.

So, it requires more than faith to "legally" get into heaven?

No, faith includes, or can include, baptism. It also would (or can) include repentance and loving God.

Do you think God would reject someone from heaven if they had not been baptized? That seems rather petty.

Not necessarily. Only adults.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
4runner
Posts: 103
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6/5/2015 12:13:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation? : :

Salvation is a plan by God, not by man. Man doesn't have the free will to choose salvation.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,386
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6/5/2015 12:16:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?
Nice thread. I trust that it's not designed to position the Christ and/or James vs. Paul theme (meant to suggest the Bible is contradictory), or to pit Christians against each other.

It's nice that you're suggesting the idea of anyone participating as though the Christian God might exist. We are actually allowed to use logic and reasoning from that standpoint (God existing) in light of what we might consider controversial Biblical subjects.

In reality, although some might disagree (which is okay), it's not an easy subject. A fairly common suggestion is that although Christians are not saved by works, the works followed by salvation would be a natural occurrence from a believer. If there were no works (akin to fruits) following salvation, logically the salvation of that person would be in question. And of course Annanicole mentioned baptism. The same principle applies. Just as a natural tendency for a believer to proclaim verbally (publicly) their belief, a believer will naturally want to follow the commandment to be baptized. It would be unnatural for a believer to not want to tell anyone of their belief, and unnatural to refuse baptism. This wasn't an issue for the thief on the cross who repented, but for someone who is able to make a proclamation of belief verbally and by baptism, it would be an issue.

Some things to consider about works. Not all works will get one saved.

Matthew 7:22
Parallel Verses
New International Version
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'


Not all works will be rewarded.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15New International Version (NIV)

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved"even though only as one escaping through the flames.


Not all works are done voluntarily.

Jonah 1:2
Parallel Verses
New International Version
"Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me."


Or not initially protested.

Jonah 1:3
Parallel Verses
New International Version
But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD.


or with one's own sufficiency.

John 15:5
Parallel Verses
New International Version
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24New International Version (NIV)

23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.


Jonah could have done, or tried to do the work (of a prophet) in Tarshish had he not been prevented from going there, but that was not the work that God wanted him to do. He wanted the work to be done in Nineveh. Following one's personal calling is important.

Romans 15:20
Parallel Verses
New International Version
It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation.


So to answer your question, it really depends.....

There are quite a few things to consider in light of scripture that we are allowed to utilize our mental capacities alongside seeking guidance from the author of the scriptures.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,327
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6/5/2015 12:28:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 4:30:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 4:09:18 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/4/2015 3:49:36 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 1:32:31 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/4/2015 1:29:55 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:47 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:24:53 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:38:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?


James 2:14-26New International Version (NIV)

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God"s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Well, you've just posted verses with no explanation. I was hoping to get a little discussion going.

I take it you believe works are necessary, so let's imagine a hypothetical. In the movie, "God is not dead", the atheist professor was hit by a car and acknowledged God immediately before he died. He obviously could not have done any works - would he have been saved? If he could be saved in such a situation, then works are not necessary. On the other hand, if he could not have been saved then would it just be a lost cause at that point? I extend this reply to Geogeer and Kyle_the_Heretic, and I look forward to your (collective) response.


The verses are an explanation, when you get over that bit, I will get over the rest

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God"s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Titus 3:5

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Sorry John, but you will need to do some explaining of your own. There are verses which can lead one to a different conclusion.

I had always considered the most reasonable position to be 'faith is all that is needed'. Works will come about because of this faith, but they are not a prerequisite to the afterlife.

Maybe

Maybe that's what Jesus's death meant. That he paid the price for our sins so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish. ~

I'm not an expert

Fair enough, John. I have always wondered why there is so much controversy over this subject. Thanks for exploring it with me.

There is controversy because it was one of the tenants of the protestant reformation. It is a fundamental shift in Christian teaching meaning one side will lead to heaven and the other to hell.

Yes, of course, but I have never understood the dogmatic fights over this issue. Both sides agree faith is necessary and works come through faith. The only difference between the two positions is one demands works. Are there actually any works a finite being could do to earn their way into the abode of an infinite being? I would think not. Therefore, mandatory works would seem to be an pacification rather than a sincere un-obligated desire. At least to me, but hey, what do I know? ;-)

On a side note - Do you think these two positions would have slightly different concepts of their God? (one being more forgiving- one being more demanding)

Two basic things here, cause and effect. You have salvation, and then you have lifestyle,(works) what I would call "abiding in God". You have the grace of God and you have obeying God (abiding with the Spirit of God). The one is supposed to follow the other, not just one over the other. God extends grace, and then we abide in that light.
"Works" are simply adhering to specific teachings, applying spiritual principles and being pliable with the Spirit.
Like Paul says salvation is a gift from God, meaning there is really nothing anyone could do to earn something like that. It can be Gods way of saying hey, here is something from Me that is beyond any works and is higher than any good or bad deeds.
Then, you have Christianity, and that is basically applying principles to your life, listening and obeying the Spirit of God.
The purpose of abiding in God now is to learn what we need to learn in this life before we move to the next life. The problem with crying out to God on the death bed is that you didn't learn from God what you needed to while you were here. You didn't learn what it means to abide in God and remove those things which are a hindrance in your spiritual being.
Accepting salvation is only a first step, it is what we do after that counts.

Works are a response to the grace of God and obeying and abiding in God is what follows "salvation".
Having said that, is it possible for someone to obtain something they ignored or rejected on earth up til the moment of death? That I don't know but I wouldn't play around with that too much lol. It's better to open the door now I would think.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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6/5/2015 12:34:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 12:28:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

"Works" are simply adhering to specific teachings, applying spiritual principles and being pliable with the Spirit.

Since you were incapable of explaining that, your post is completely meaningless.

Pliable with the Spirit? LOL. Hilarious nonsense.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,136
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6/5/2015 5:26:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 12:16:17 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?
Nice thread. I trust that it's not designed to position the Christ and/or James vs. Paul theme (meant to suggest the Bible is contradictory), or to pit Christians against each other.

Well, thanks, and this thread was not designed to show contradictions in the Bible, rather to have a different type of debate than the norm for this forum. However, accepting the Christian god as a starting point in no way means acceptance of the Bible being inerrant. That would be a different concession.

It's nice that you're suggesting the idea of anyone participating as though the Christian God might exist. We are actually allowed to use logic and reasoning from that standpoint (God existing) in light of what we might consider controversial Biblical subjects.

As I said, I am tired of the same ol' debate that happens all the time within this forum.

In reality, although some might disagree (which is okay), it's not an easy subject. A fairly common suggestion is that although Christians are not saved by works, the works followed by salvation would be a natural occurrence from a believer.

I accept this.

If there were no works (akin to fruits) following salvation, logically the salvation of that person would be in question.

Well, that addresses a different question than stated in the OP. When we boil it down to the bare minimum, are works required or is faith enough?

And of course Annanicole mentioned baptism. The same principle applies. Just as a natural tendency for a believer to proclaim verbally (publicly) their belief, a believer will naturally want to follow the commandment to be baptized. It would be unnatural for a believer to not want to tell anyone of their belief, and unnatural to refuse baptism. This wasn't an issue for the thief on the cross who repented, but for someone who is able to make a proclamation of belief verbally and by baptism, it would be an issue.

I thought the baptism comment was interesting, but that takes us away from the OP. It would probably be a good subject for another thread. Perhaps, "What is absolutely required for salvation?"

Some things to consider about works. Not all works will get one saved.

Matthew 7:22
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New International Version
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'


Not all works will be rewarded.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15New International Version (NIV)

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved"even though only as one escaping through the flames.


Not all works are done voluntarily.

Jonah 1:2
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"Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me."


Or not initially protested.

Jonah 1:3
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But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD.




or with one's own sufficiency.

John 15:5
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"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24New International Version (NIV)

23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.


Jonah could have done, or tried to do the work (of a prophet) in Tarshish had he not been prevented from going there, but that was not the work that God wanted him to do. He wanted the work to be done in Nineveh. Following one's personal calling is important.

Romans 15:20
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It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation.


So to answer your question, it really depends.....

There are quite a few things to consider in light of scripture that we are allowed to utilize our mental capacities alongside seeking guidance from the author of the scriptures.

My position from post #11:

"I had always considered the most reasonable position to be 'faith is all that is needed'. Works will come about because of this faith, but they are not a prerequisite to the afterlife."

and #13:

"Are there actually any works a finite being could do to earn their way into the abode of an infinite being? I would think not. Therefore, mandatory works would seem to be a [form of] pacification rather than a sincere un-obligated desire."
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Skepticalone
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6/5/2015 5:43:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 12:13:15 PM, 4runner wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation? : :

Salvation is a plan by God, not by man. Man doesn't have the free will to choose salvation.

That is a different topic. Thanks for posting though.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
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6/5/2015 5:51:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 12:28:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There is controversy because it was one of the tenants of the protestant reformation. It is a fundamental shift in Christian teaching meaning one side will lead to heaven and the other to hell.

Yes, of course, but I have never understood the dogmatic fights over this issue. Both sides agree faith is necessary and works come through faith. The only difference between the two positions is one demands works. Are there actually any works a finite being could do to earn their way into the abode of an infinite being? I would think not. Therefore, mandatory works would seem to be an pacification rather than a sincere un-obligated desire. At least to me, but hey, what do I know? ;-)

On a side note - Do you think these two positions would have slightly different concepts of their God? (one being more forgiving- one being more demanding)

Two basic things here, cause and effect. You have salvation, and then you have lifestyle,(works) what I would call "abiding in God". You have the grace of God and you have obeying God (abiding with the Spirit of God). The one is supposed to follow the other, not just one over the other. God extends grace, and then we abide in that light.

This is as I understand salvation. It is a gift, and nothing short of faith can "earn" it.

"Works" are simply adhering to specific teachings, applying spiritual principles and being pliable with the Spirit.
Like Paul says salvation is a gift from God, meaning there is really nothing anyone could do to earn something like that. It can be Gods way of saying hey, here is something from Me that is beyond any works and is higher than any good or bad deeds.
Then, you have Christianity, and that is basically applying principles to your life, listening and obeying the Spirit of God.
The purpose of abiding in God now is to learn what we need to learn in this life before we move to the next life. The problem with crying out to God on the death bed is that you didn't learn from God what you needed to while you were here. You didn't learn what it means to abide in God and remove those things which are a hindrance in your spiritual being.

This seems to contradict where you started. If salvation is a gift that only needs to be accepted, then why would it matter when this acceptance comes?

Accepting salvation is only a first step, it is what we do after that counts.

Works are a response to the grace of God and obeying and abiding in God is what follows "salvation".
Having said that, is it possible for someone to obtain something they ignored or rejected on earth up til the moment of death? That I don't know but I wouldn't play around with that too much lol. It's better to open the door now I would think.

Your opinion is noted.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
4runner
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6/5/2015 7:49:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 5:43:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/5/2015 12:13:15 PM, 4runner wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation? : :

Salvation is a plan by God, not by man. Man doesn't have the free will to choose salvation.

That is a different topic. Thanks for posting though. : :

Man doesn't have to work our his own salvation. It was already planned by God. If you think this is off topic, then you're blind.
Skepticalone
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6/5/2015 8:40:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 7:49:07 PM, 4runner wrote:
At 6/5/2015 5:43:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/5/2015 12:13:15 PM, 4runner wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation? : :

Salvation is a plan by God, not by man. Man doesn't have the free will to choose salvation.

That is a different topic. Thanks for posting though. : :

Man doesn't have to work our his own salvation. It was already planned by God. If you think this is off topic, then you're blind.

If you think man has no free will then that is a different discussion. That would be a discussion about free will. I'm sure you could start a thread over it and find many interested sparring partners. I'm not one of them.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
4runner
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6/5/2015 8:56:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 8:40:17 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/5/2015 7:49:07 PM, 4runner wrote:
At 6/5/2015 5:43:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/5/2015 12:13:15 PM, 4runner wrote:
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation? : :

Salvation is a plan by God, not by man. Man doesn't have the free will to choose salvation.

That is a different topic. Thanks for posting though. : :

Man doesn't have to work our his own salvation. It was already planned by God. If you think this is off topic, then you're blind.

If you think man has no free will then that is a different discussion. That would be a discussion about free will. I'm sure you could start a thread over it and find many interested sparring partners. I'm not one of them.

Did you read the first part of my post? Here it is;

Man doesn't have to work out his own salvation. It was already planned by God.

If this is not on topic, then tell me how it isn't.
Electric-Eccentric
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6/5/2015 10:28:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 1:34:04 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
....and now for something completely different. I'm sure we are all getting tired of seeing the same old arguments, so let's try something different. This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

Are works necessary for salvation?

As the "Heavenly language" is not of this world I must use the earthly means of communication with the vague selection that is available.

I understand the so called scriptures very well and believe that there is a vast selection of information about HUMAN NATURE and the world around us.

The problem is that most choose to view the scriptures as far more then it is in TRUTH and HONESTY.

Now if GOD is LIFE it's self and good works is treating others and the world around us with a unconditional love and understanding that is NOT vague or subjective,

and salvation is the feeling and BEING of a HAPPY CAMPER that doesn't need to look over their shoulder or worry about paying their debt and way as they take FULL responsibility for their own personal thoughts and actions and the way that their life was, is and will be.

I find the scriptures a great guide as having the mind of christ and being the Way, the Truth and the Life is Heaven for sure for sure.

Why wait to LIVE later when you can LIVE LIFE with the REAL GOD of LIFE that is all around us and within us.

Only SUPERSTITIOUS mankind requires gods, sci-fi theories and such to fill in the holes that THEY create in the realm of make believe and pretend realities.

So being sin free and saved and all that other labeled and pigeonholed crap.

I speak from experience.

it's a bit like you need to grow up and mature in Truth, Honesty and understanding before you can be saved from the hell of superstition and it's many deceptions and lies that enslave and blind the minds of those that like their fantasy and fiction far more then the other side of the coin.
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...