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Wanna see my pet Dragon?

Saint_of_Me
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6/3/2015 4:38:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
To all fundamentalist Christians and believers in a Biblical God........

I want to post a famous parable by Carl Sagan, which shows how hard it is to disprove even the most outlandish belief. No doubt some of you are familiar with it.

It is called "The dragon in my garage"

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin. I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

So Christians: can you see why us logical atheists and agnostics cannot disprove your God? Yet, that is by no means PROOF you have one. Except in your heads? As I have shown here, ANY crazy claim can be difficult to disprove.

Discuss, all you True Believers! Thanks!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/3/2015 5:01:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:38:21 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

Which in itself is okay, provided that you hold yourself accountable to demonstrate to independent scrutiny your character, expertise and rigorous methodology.

In other words, by what special competence are you, SoM, able to discern the invisible, flying, intangible, heatless dragon, and can you demonstrate this competence, the quality of character and the processes needed to assure your integrity?

And here it gets rather damning. Christians derive all claims of authority from a book whose authors they can't confidently identify and whose character is unlikely to differ from the dubious character of other chroniclers of the day. Their expertise -- seldom impressive even by ancient standards -- cannot be attested. Their methodologies were either inadequate, nonexistent or opaque. And further, the redaction of their testimonies is itself opaque.

And this is also a book whose claims historical, physical, biological and geological early scientists set out to confirm, only to find every significant testable claim false.

And finally, we have centuries of theologians shifting claims, evading accountability and denying error. We have positive evidence that Christian theology has given us thirteen hundred years of evasion, indiligence and intellectually dishonesty. So we can reject Christianity not merely on absence of evidence, but on conclusive evidence of prolonged ignorance, corruption, laziness and intellectual deceit.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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6/3/2015 9:36:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In short, Christianity suffered exactly all the social misconceptions and inhumanities as did every other religion of the time yet still managed to win support for at least the Idea of Forgiveness of sins if not the reality. We can't hold the Old Christianity to New Age ethical standards and that of course includes historical reporting which is actually a very modern concept, the idea that you don't read into historical events your own age's prejudices and false ideas. So again, let's move on and see that despite all the spiritual errors derived from false reporting by overzealous authors and editors, God has embedded within Scriptures a most wonderful Messianic code written in astrological language that unlike, Word of God books written by priesthoods, can't be touched by human hands as no one owns the movements of the stars and planets comprising God's Sign Language in the heavens. This is the Celestial Torah code and its decoding provides the necessary spiritual foundation that shows God's continuity through all the generations, not just the Jewish ones.

Wanna see my pet Dragon suffers the same atheist delusion as the rest of the asinine requests by atheists for God to wear a measurable suit so they can see It, even when the Books, the religious authorities, the religious believers all tell them God is a Spirit and you can only recognize a Spirit by It's trail of spiritual effects on human beings. It is the reports of spiritual transformations, conversions, whole nations changed in religious identity, these are the proofs of Great Spirit in motion in our physical world.

Wanna see my pet Dragon? The Celestial Torah reveals all of us Jews have our Celestial Torah Sign in the heavens, right along side the Celestial Torah constellation itself, and our Sign is Set's Sign, the constellation of Draco, the Dragon, which like our "Fence around the Torah" protects it like a Dragon protects their Treasure. But I teach Jews how to ride Dragons as Dragon Masters and not be ones themselves which they will become if they don't know the Celestial Torah teachings of the Jewish Christ Messiah.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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6/3/2015 9:54:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:38:21 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:

The Demon-Haunted World is in my top ten list. I have read it three times. But even Carl Sagan didn't entirely dismiss the existence of God. He said to do so was to claim to know more than one could truly know.

The invisible Dragon is in a Garage, where we should be able to see it. Where is God's presence restricted that we should be able to see Him?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Serato
Posts: 743
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6/3/2015 10:12:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I suppose it's important to note to everyone that saint - of - me is preaching the beginning stages to luciferian doctrines. These rotten scoundrels are conditioned to be self-absorbed to one's own ego. Everything is about the "me", rather than acknowledge their soul or spirit. The ego has no problem with this because it wishes to be king of its domain and can do no wrong. The ego thinks it self always as a saint. With that said, Saint-of-Me, if he ever decides to check the ego, he'll then realize that Jesus was real. Jesus was not an invisible dragon. Jesus is God.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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6/3/2015 10:19:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 9:36:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
In short, Christianity suffered exactly all the social misconceptions and inhumanities as did every other religion of the time yet still managed to win support for at least the Idea of Forgiveness of sins if not the reality. We can't hold the Old Christianity to New Age ethical standards and that of course includes historical reporting which is actually a very modern concept, the idea that you don't read into historical events your own age's prejudices and false ideas. So again, let's move on and see that despite all the spiritual errors derived from false reporting by overzealous authors and editors, God has embedded within Scriptures a most wonderful Messianic code written in astrological language that unlike, Word of God books written by priesthoods, can't be touched by human hands as no one owns the movements of the stars and planets comprising God's Sign Language in the heavens. This is the Celestial Torah code and its decoding provides the necessary spiritual foundation that shows God's continuity through all the generations, not just the Jewish ones.

Wanna see my pet Dragon suffers the same atheist delusion as the rest of the asinine requests by atheists for God to wear a measurable suit so they can see It, even when the Books, the religious authorities, the religious believers all tell them God is a Spirit and you can only recognize a Spirit by It's trail of spiritual effects on human beings. It is the reports of spiritual transformations, conversions, whole nations changed in religious identity, these are the proofs of Great Spirit in motion in our physical world.

Asking for evidence of an assertion is not 'asinine'. Nations changing religious identity, eh? So the Maoist atheism of China's recent spiritual past is representative of a Great Spirit? Would you agree that such spreadings might have more to do with the swords that need to be later beaten into plow shares?

Wanna see my pet Dragon? The Celestial Torah reveals all of us Jews have our Celestial Torah Sign in the heavens, right along side the Celestial Torah constellation itself, and our Sign is Set's Sign, the constellation of Draco, the Dragon, which like our "Fence around the Torah" protects it like a Dragon protects their Treasure. But I teach Jews how to ride Dragons as Dragon Masters and not be ones themselves which they will become if they don't know the Celestial Torah teachings of the Jewish Christ Messiah.

... this is different than the tales of the Zodiac, how, exactly?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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6/3/2015 10:22:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 10:12:07 PM, Serato wrote:
I suppose it's important to note to everyone that saint - of - me is preaching the beginning stages to luciferian doctrines. These rotten scoundrels are conditioned to be self-absorbed to one's own ego. Everything is about the "me", rather than acknowledge their soul or spirit. The ego has no problem with this because it wishes to be king of its domain and can do no wrong. The ego thinks it self always as a saint. With that said, Saint-of-Me, if he ever decides to check the ego, he'll then realize that Jesus was real. Jesus was not an invisible dragon. Jesus is God.

So, again, how is asking for proof of an assertion, or demonstrable evidence of an assertion "Luciferian Doctrine". Jesus is not an invisible dragon to you, and God is not an invisible dragon to you, but yet He (They?) seem to have the same attributes recounted in the parable. In reality, who exactly is coming up with those post hoc justifications? You are correct in stating "the ego", but incorrect in pointing out who's.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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RuvDraba
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6/3/2015 10:28:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 9:36:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
We can't hold the Old Christianity to New Age ethical standards and that of course includes historical reporting which is actually a very modern concept

Actually, any morality that claims to be absolute, unchanging and inerrant can be held accountable to any future knowledge, insight or methodology. That's what absolute, unchanging and inerrant mean: we know more than you can ever do.

If Christianity doesn't want to be held to that account, then the answer's simple: admit that scripture isn't absolute or inerrant, that clergy are ignorant, often misguided and emphatically not divinely inspired, and that therefore Christianity must explore morality with humility, on evidence, and be accountable to other human beings -- incuding non-Christians.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,860
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6/3/2015 10:33:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:38:21 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
To all fundamentalist Christians and believers in a Biblical God........

I want to post a famous parable by Carl Sagan, which shows how hard it is to disprove even the most outlandish belief. No doubt some of you are familiar with it.

It is called "The dragon in my garage"


"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin. I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

So Christians: can you see why us logical atheists and agnostics cannot disprove your God? Yet, that is by no means PROOF you have one. Except in your heads? As I have shown here, ANY crazy claim can be difficult to disprove.

Discuss, all you True Believers! Thanks!

Is that what you say to little children: "want to see my pet dragon"? And then lure them into your garage? Shame on you.
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FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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6/3/2015 10:38:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 10:28:16 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 9:36:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
We can't hold the Old Christianity to New Age ethical standards and that of course includes historical reporting which is actually a very modern concept

Actually, any morality that claims to be absolute, unchanging and inerrant can be held accountable to any future knowledge, insight or methodology. That's what absolute, unchanging and inerrant mean: we know more than you can ever do.

If Christianity doesn't want to be held to that account, then the answer's simple: admit that scripture isn't absolute or inerrant, that clergy are ignorant, often misguided and emphatically not divinely inspired, and that therefore Christianity must explore morality with humility, on evidence, and be accountable to other human beings -- incuding non-Christians.

.... b-bu-but... how can we claim morality authority with such an admission!?!?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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6/3/2015 10:39:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Corrected a typo. x.x

We can't hold the Old Christianity to New Age ethical standards and that of course includes historical reporting which is actually a very modern concept

Actually, any morality that claims to be absolute, unchanging and inerrant can be held accountable to any future knowledge, insight or methodology. That's what absolute, unchanging and inerrant mean: we know more than you can ever do.

If Christianity doesn't want to be held to that account, then the answer's simple: admit that scripture isn't absolute or inerrant, that clergy are ignorant, often misguided and emphatically not divinely inspired, and that therefore Christianity must explore morality with humility, on evidence, and be accountable to other human beings -- incuding non-Christians.

.... b-bu-but... how can we claim moral* authority with such an admission!?!?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Serato
Posts: 743
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6/3/2015 11:17:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 10:22:20 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/3/2015 10:12:07 PM, Serato wrote:
I suppose it's important to note to everyone that saint - of - me is preaching the beginning stages to luciferian doctrines. These rotten scoundrels are conditioned to be self-absorbed to one's own ego. Everything is about the "me", rather than acknowledge their soul or spirit. The ego has no problem with this because it wishes to be king of its domain and can do no wrong. The ego thinks it self always as a saint. With that said, Saint-of-Me, if he ever decides to check the ego, he'll then realize that Jesus was real. Jesus was not an invisible dragon. Jesus is God.

So, again, how is asking for proof of an assertion, or demonstrable evidence of an assertion "Luciferian Doctrine". Jesus is not an invisible dragon to you, and God is not an invisible dragon to you, but yet He (They?) seem to have the same attributes recounted in the parable. In reality, who exactly is coming up with those post hoc justifications? You are correct in stating "the ego", but incorrect in pointing out who's.

His dragon story has nothing in direct relation to being luciferian. Indirectly it can be tied 50 shades more than gray, but let's not dwell on that. The young ones are conditioned to believe Jesus is a fairy tale, but the seniors know all to well that Jesus is God. They don't like Jesus, but they know who He is. The dragon story is retarded. By this standard one could say Plato never existed, yet people saw him and wrote about him. But Plato never walked on water or turned water to wine, nor did Plato cure the blind so Plato was not a threat.

I don't know how to address your comment because I'm not sure what you're saying. There is physical evidence of Jesus, and profound evidence of the most convincing nature, of the Holy Spirit, and for the Father there is immaculate proof when you learn how to see it, because it is everywhere. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the Trinity of God. When Jesus died, He sent His Holy Spirit to return to this world. They cannot be in the same place at the same time because it violates the rules of this world. Jesus had to live and experience a typical life without the advantages of living in the flesh with the Spirit. The best way to understand this is to figure out a way as I did, leave your body and return to your spirit, and then you'll see how awesome in advantage one would have if they had to live here with their spirit. Anyone doing this would have a clear advantage. But life is a game with rules. God came down to live a righteous life as a man, as Jesus, and this settled a debt to his opponent. Remember, life is just a game. Your spirit knows the rules to this game, but the ego is given amnesia.
FaustianJustice
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6/3/2015 11:38:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 11:17:52 PM, Serato wrote:
At 6/3/2015 10:22:20 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/3/2015 10:12:07 PM, Serato wrote:
I suppose it's important to note to everyone that saint - of - me is preaching the beginning stages to luciferian doctrines. These rotten scoundrels are conditioned to be self-absorbed to one's own ego. Everything is about the "me", rather than acknowledge their soul or spirit. The ego has no problem with this because it wishes to be king of its domain and can do no wrong. The ego thinks it self always as a saint. With that said, Saint-of-Me, if he ever decides to check the ego, he'll then realize that Jesus was real. Jesus was not an invisible dragon. Jesus is God.

So, again, how is asking for proof of an assertion, or demonstrable evidence of an assertion "Luciferian Doctrine". Jesus is not an invisible dragon to you, and God is not an invisible dragon to you, but yet He (They?) seem to have the same attributes recounted in the parable. In reality, who exactly is coming up with those post hoc justifications? You are correct in stating "the ego", but incorrect in pointing out who's.

His dragon story has nothing in direct relation to being luciferian. Indirectly it can be tied 50 shades more than gray, but let's not dwell on that. The young ones are conditioned to believe Jesus is a fairy tale, but the seniors know all to well that Jesus is God. They don't like Jesus, but they know who He is. The dragon story is retarded. By this standard one could say Plato never existed, yet people saw him and wrote about him. But Plato never walked on water or turned water to wine, nor did Plato cure the blind so Plato was not a threat.

Yes, but Plato has concurrent works written by him and about him, contemporary works written about him, had successors that continued his methodology, and nothing of his teachings were improbable, unlikely, or stretched credulity of existence.

I don't know how to address your comment because I'm not sure what you're saying. There is physical evidence of Jesus,

Do tell.

and profound evidence of the most convincing nature, of the Holy Spirit,

and here I draw the line, that is not "profound", that is concocted. Invented. It is no more profound that stating "I believe in fairies, and clapped my hands, which brought a fairy some where back to life".

and for the Father there is immaculate proof when you learn how to see it, because it is everywhere.

But because its 'everywhere' one needs to learn how to see it. I think you mean one needs to interpret their senses in a specific way.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the Trinity of God.

That is also polytheism, but you are on a roll, so please don't let me stop you.

When Jesus died, He sent His Holy Spirit to return to this world. They cannot be in the same place at the same time because it violates the rules of this world.

Where can one find the "rules", exactly?

Jesus had to live and experience a typical life without the advantages of living in the flesh with the Spirit.

I think the nature of what makes Jesus Jesus is that he specifically did NOT lead a typical life, as no one that I know can typically turn water into wine, heal the sick, cure the blind, raise the dead, walk on water, etc.

The best way to understand this is to figure out a way as I did, leave your body and return to your spirit, and then you'll see how awesome in advantage one would have if they had to live here with their spirit. Anyone doing this would have a clear advantage. But life is a game with rules. God came down to live a righteous life as a man, as Jesus, and this settled a debt to his opponent. Remember, life is just a game. Your spirit knows the rules to this game, but the ego is given amnesia.

He asserts. Do you have any form of evidence in which to back this up? I can find numerous cults that I am confident you would decry as false faith that mirrored that very sentiment.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
RuvDraba
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6/3/2015 11:53:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 10:38:13 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/3/2015 10:28:16 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 9:36:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
We can't hold the Old Christianity to New Age ethical standards and that of course includes historical reporting which is actually a very modern concept
If Christianity doesn't want to be held to that account, then the answer's simple: admit that scripture isn't absolute or inerrant, that clergy are ignorant, often misguided and emphatically not divinely inspired, and that therefore Christianity must explore morality with humility, on evidence, and be accountable to other human beings -- incuding non-Christians.

.... b-bu-but... how can we claim morality authority with such an admission!?!?

You mean: how can Christianity possibly pursue the imperialism, colonialism and hegemonism begun in the late Roman Empire, prosecuted through centuries of ruinous European wars and ethnic cleansings and culminating in the raping of Asia, Africa, Oceania and the Americas without a doctrinally-entrenched contempt for people who don't look or act like straight, white males?

Beats me, FJ.

Might uh... need to learn to do without it.
Serato
Posts: 743
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6/4/2015 12:48:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 11:38:55 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/3/2015 11:17:52 PM, Serato wrote:
At 6/3/2015 10:22:20 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/3/2015 10:12:07 PM, Serato wrote:
I suppose it's important to note to everyone that saint - of - me is preaching the beginning stages to luciferian doctrines. These rotten scoundrels are conditioned to be self-absorbed to one's own ego. Everything is about the "me", rather than acknowledge their soul or spirit. The ego has no problem with this because it wishes to be king of its domain and can do no wrong. The ego thinks it self always as a saint. With that said, Saint-of-Me, if he ever decides to check the ego, he'll then realize that Jesus was real. Jesus was not an invisible dragon. Jesus is God.

So, again, how is asking for proof of an assertion, or demonstrable evidence of an assertion "Luciferian Doctrine". Jesus is not an invisible dragon to you, and God is not an invisible dragon to you, but yet He (They?) seem to have the same attributes recounted in the parable. In reality, who exactly is coming up with those post hoc justifications? You are correct in stating "the ego", but incorrect in pointing out who's.

His dragon story has nothing in direct relation to being luciferian. Indirectly it can be tied 50 shades more than gray, but let's not dwell on that. The young ones are conditioned to believe Jesus is a fairy tale, but the seniors know all to well that Jesus is God. They don't like Jesus, but they know who He is. The dragon story is retarded. By this standard one could say Plato never existed, yet people saw him and wrote about him. But Plato never walked on water or turned water to wine, nor did Plato cure the blind so Plato was not a threat.

Yes, but Plato has concurrent works written by him and about him, contemporary works written about him, had successors that continued his methodology, and nothing of his teachings were improbable, unlikely, or stretched credulity of existence.

Plato is far more difficult to understand. Jesus was simple and His lesson was simple. Both were a genius within their respective right. But to be great is to be misunderstood. We live in a world where being right is to be wrong, to be wrong is right. We live now in a world of lies. All the greats were never understood until generations later. The great always speak above their time, otherwise they would not be great. They would be average.

I don't know how to address your comment because I'm not sure what you're saying. There is physical evidence of Jesus,

Do tell.

There are rumors of items being hidden, but the Shroud is something offhand for physical evidence.

and profound evidence of the most convincing nature, of the Holy Spirit,

and here I draw the line, that is not "profound", that is concocted. Invented. It is no more profound that stating "I believe in fairies, and clapped my hands, which brought a fairy some where back to life".

You will know the Holy Spirit when you see It. I have seen It and felt the power. This is overwhelming evidence for me, but definitely not for you. Just know that the power was incredibly intense.

and for the Father there is immaculate proof when you learn how to see it, because it is everywhere.

But because its 'everywhere' one needs to learn how to see it. I think you mean one needs to interpret their senses in a specific way.
.
The sheer magnitude of intelligent design to all things is proof. Nature is proof. A rose is proof. Life is proof. Energy is proof.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the Trinity of God.

That is also polytheism, but you are on a roll, so please don't let me stop you.

It is three, but it is one. I am three, and I am one. I know my ego. I know my soul. And the one thing I know most is my spirit. The day you find your spirit is the day you know what I'm talking about. Your spirit is the only real thing in your life, in your real life, in the spirit life. Everything else is fake, and faker.

When Jesus died, He sent His Holy Spirit to return to this world. They cannot be in the same place at the same time because it violates the rules of this world.

Where can one find the "rules", exactly?

Go home and you will know.

Jesus had to live and experience a typical life without the advantages of living in the flesh with the Spirit.

I think the nature of what makes Jesus Jesus is that he specifically did NOT lead a typical life, as no one that I know can typically turn water into wine, heal the sick, cure the blind, raise the dead, walk on water, etc.

The best way to understand this is to figure out a way as I did, leave your body and return to your spirit, and then you'll see how awesome in advantage one would have if they had to live here with their spirit. Anyone doing this would have a clear advantage. But life is a game with rules. God came down to live a righteous life as a man, as Jesus, and this settled a debt to his opponent. Remember, life is just a game. Your spirit knows the rules to this game, but the ego is given amnesia.

He asserts. Do you have any form of evidence in which to back this up? I can find numerous cults that I am confident you would decry as false faith that mirrored that very sentiment.

All faiths hold some truths. But some hold more than others. The Pharonic cults have their trinity, and I have mine. Both exist, but mine is better.
FaustianJustice
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6/4/2015 1:12:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
His dragon story has nothing in direct relation to being luciferian. Indirectly it can be tied 50 shades more than gray, but let's not dwell on that. The young ones are conditioned to believe Jesus is a fairy tale, but the seniors know all to well that Jesus is God. They don't like Jesus, but they know who He is. The dragon story is retarded. By this standard one could say Plato never existed, yet people saw him and wrote about him. But Plato never walked on water or turned water to wine, nor did Plato cure the blind so Plato was not a threat.

Yes, but Plato has concurrent works written by him and about him, contemporary works written about him, had successors that continued his methodology, and nothing of his teachings were improbable, unlikely, or stretched credulity of existence.

Plato is far more difficult to understand. Jesus was simple and His lesson was simple. Both were a genius within their respective right. But to be great is to be misunderstood. We live in a world where being right is to be wrong, to be wrong is right. We live now in a world of lies. All the greats were never understood until generations later. The great always speak above their time, otherwise they would not be great. They would be average.

That does absolutely nothing to refute or counter point how Plato's existence is beyond question, or how Jesus' shouldn't be.

I don't know how to address your comment because I'm not sure what you're saying. There is physical evidence of Jesus,

Do tell.

There are rumors of items being hidden, but the Shroud is something offhand for physical evidence.

http://www.nydailynews.com...

Second, that is not evidence of "Jesus" specifically, assuming the shroud is genuine of its time believed time period.

and profound evidence of the most convincing nature, of the Holy Spirit,

and here I draw the line, that is not "profound", that is concocted. Invented. It is no more profound that stating "I believe in fairies, and clapped my hands, which brought a fairy some where back to life".

You will know the Holy Spirit when you see It. I have seen It and felt the power. This is overwhelming evidence for me, but definitely not for you. Just know that the power was incredibly intense.

Sounds to me like this experience is of a very personal nature, and should under no circumstances be used as a bench mark to guide or instruct others.

and for the Father there is immaculate proof when you learn how to see it, because it is everywhere.

But because its 'everywhere' one needs to learn how to see it. I think you mean one needs to interpret their senses in a specific way.
.
The sheer magnitude of intelligent design to all things is proof. Nature is proof. A rose is proof. Life is proof. Energy is proof.

So religion is an inkblot.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the Trinity of God.

That is also polytheism, but you are on a roll, so please don't let me stop you.

It is three, but it is one. I am three, and I am one. I know my ego. I know my soul. And the one thing I know most is my spirit. The day you find your spirit is the day you know what I'm talking about. Your spirit is the only real thing in your life, in your real life, in the spirit life. Everything else is fake, and faker.

So then the God you speak of is a personified contradiction. It is three, but it is one. That is illogical.

When Jesus died, He sent His Holy Spirit to return to this world. They cannot be in the same place at the same time because it violates the rules of this world.

Where can one find the "rules", exactly?

Go home and you will know.

With that answer, please allow me to dismiss your assertion of such rules existing, then.

Jesus had to live and experience a typical life without the advantages of living in the flesh with the Spirit.

I think the nature of what makes Jesus Jesus is that he specifically did NOT lead a typical life, as no one that I know can typically turn water into wine, heal the sick, cure the blind, raise the dead, walk on water, etc.

The best way to understand this is to figure out a way as I did, leave your body and return to your spirit, and then you'll see how awesome in advantage one would have if they had to live here with their spirit. Anyone doing this would have a clear advantage. But life is a game with rules. God came down to live a righteous life as a man, as Jesus, and this settled a debt to his opponent. Remember, life is just a game. Your spirit knows the rules to this game, but the ego is given amnesia.

He asserts. Do you have any form of evidence in which to back this up? I can find numerous cults that I am confident you would decry as false faith that mirrored that very sentiment.

All faiths hold some truths.

Because all faiths are grounded in some variety of fact, its simply a matter of how many new attributes can be assigned to the old "God" to keep it relevant. That is why MCB, SCMike, LMGIG, Neutral, BoG, must continually update and adjust their interpretation; its the only way as science marches on that the antiquities of bronze age belief can persist. That self soothing technique can only work for them as long as it their suspension of belief is not overcome by rational inquiry and common sense.

But some hold more than others. The Pharonic cults have their trinity, and I have mine. Both exist, but mine is better.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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6/4/2015 6:28:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 10:12:07 PM, Serato wrote:
I suppose it's important to note to everyone that saint - of - me is preaching the beginning stages to luciferian doctrines. These rotten scoundrels are conditioned to be self-absorbed to one's own ego. Everything is about the "me", rather than acknowledge their soul or spirit. The ego has no problem with this because it wishes to be king of its domain and can do no wrong. The ego thinks it self always as a saint. With that said, Saint-of-Me, if he ever decides to check the ego, he'll then realize that Jesus was real. Jesus was not an invisible dragon. Jesus is God.

Your posts are all about you and your serious problems!
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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6/4/2015 6:32:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 10:28:16 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 9:36:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
We can't hold the Old Christianity to New Age ethical standards and that of course includes historical reporting which is actually a very modern concept

Actually, any morality that claims to be absolute, unchanging and inerrant can be held accountable to any future knowledge, insight or methodology. That's what absolute, unchanging and inerrant mean: we know more than you can ever do.

If Christianity doesn't want to be held to that account, then the answer's simple: admit that scripture isn't absolute or inerrant, that clergy are ignorant, often misguided and emphatically not divinely inspired, and that therefore Christianity must explore morality with humility, on evidence, and be accountable to other human beings -- incuding non-Christians.

Jesus H. Christ, will you atheists NEVER stop with your idiotic lack of knowledge of Christianity? How many times does one have to post to you stupes for you to learn that no, Pauline Bible thumping Evangelical Christianity is NOT all Christian beliefs, never was, never will be. Celestial Torah Christianity is a modern yet ancient Gnostic Christian belief system that demands seeking knowledge of God for basis of spiritual authority and not blind faith in Word of God books written by others. We Gnostic are not, never were, Bible centered Christian believers and you atheists are afraid to debate us so you go for the Evangelical Bible thumpers and attack their theologies. Which we Gnostics accomplished 2000 years ago. Why do you think we never became Pauline Bible believing Christians in the first place?

As for what's new in Celestial Torah Christianity that can't be found in common astrology is the Judeo-Christian astrological knowledge of God Most High (Saturn) and the Messiah (Aquarius). Show us where you can find this spiritual astrological relationship revealed, explained in detail in any astrological book before asking what's different about Celestial Torah Christianity from regular astrology.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/4/2015 6:56:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 6:32:32 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
At 6/3/2015 10:28:16 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/3/2015 9:36:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
We can't hold the Old Christianity to New Age ethical standards and that of course includes historical reporting which is actually a very modern concept
Actually, any morality that claims to be absolute, unchanging and inerrant can be held accountable to any future knowledge, insight or methodology. That's what absolute, unchanging and inerrant mean: we know more than you can ever do.
Why do you think we never became Pauline Bible believing Christians in the first place?

I'm aware that some forms of Christianity already use exploratory rather than prescriptive investigations for morality, CTT. You can infer from my recommendation that I believe this both feasible and desirable, although you should not infer endorsement of a particular creed.

You are also aware of how small a minority of Christianity this approach has represented historically, how such Christians have sometimes been treated by the mainstream (not simply evangelicals), and how this marginalisation continues to modern times.

Since your faith does not represent the bulk of Christian tradition, the fact that you are taking me to task for misrepresenting the bulk of Christian tradition by not mentioning your faith seems to me outrage feigned for self-promotion.

In which case, you are of course, welcome for the strained pretext.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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6/4/2015 7:12:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:48:41 AM, Serato wrote:
All faiths hold some truths.
Do you really think so?
Religions and gods are the creation of man, that is the truth of faiths.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,091
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6/4/2015 10:18:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:38:21 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
To all fundamentalist Christians and believers in a Biblical God........

I want to post a famous parable by Carl Sagan, which shows how hard it is to disprove even the most outlandish belief. No doubt some of you are familiar with it.

It is called "The dragon in my garage"


"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin. I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

So Christians: can you see why us logical atheists and agnostics cannot disprove your God? Yet, that is by no means PROOF you have one. Except in your heads? As I have shown here, ANY crazy claim can be difficult to disprove.

Discuss, all you True Believers! Thanks!
QUOTE..
1) The existence of the universe demands an explanation. The order of the physical universe which ensures it adheres to laws which can be inferred suggests an intelligence behind the universe.

2) The genetic code in living organisms precludes the possibility they arose naturally. Natural processes CAN'T give rise to codes which don't follow natural laws. As humans, we know that codes are always made by conscious effort so the presence of codes in living things is grounds to infer that God exists.

3) Consciousness in man is not explainable by materialistic means. Emergence can't explain consciousness since typically it deals with new physical properties that arise due to complex interactions. But the consciousness isn't physical and so can't be explained by purely material means more so since physical things lack consciousness. This is good grounds to believe that a God that effects consciousness exists.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/4/2015 10:59:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 10:18:13 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:38:21 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
To all fundamentalist Christians and believers in a Biblical God........

I want to post a famous parable by Carl Sagan, which shows how hard it is to disprove even the most outlandish belief. No doubt some of you are familiar with it.

It is called "The dragon in my garage"


"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin. I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

So Christians: can you see why us logical atheists and agnostics cannot disprove your God? Yet, that is by no means PROOF you have one. Except in your heads? As I have shown here, ANY crazy claim can be difficult to disprove.

Discuss, all you True Believers! Thanks!
QUOTE..
1) The existence of the universe demands an explanation. The order of the physical universe which ensures it adheres to laws which can be inferred suggests an intelligence behind the universe.

2) The genetic code in living organisms precludes the possibility they arose naturally. Natural processes CAN'T give rise to codes which don't follow natural laws. As humans, we know that codes are always made by conscious effort so the presence of codes in living things is grounds to infer that God exists.

3) Consciousness in man is not explainable by materialistic means. Emergence can't explain consciousness since typically it deals with new physical properties that arise due to complex interactions. But the consciousness isn't physical and so can't be explained by purely material means more so since physical things lack consciousness. This is good grounds to believe that a God that effects consciousness exists.

May I ask for the source of your quotes?
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,091
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6/4/2015 11:03:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 10:59:22 AM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/4/2015 10:18:13 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:38:21 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
To all fundamentalist Christians and believers in a Biblical God........

I want to post a famous parable by Carl Sagan, which shows how hard it is to disprove even the most outlandish belief. No doubt some of you are familiar with it.

It is called "The dragon in my garage"


"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin. I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

So Christians: can you see why us logical atheists and agnostics cannot disprove your God? Yet, that is by no means PROOF you have one. Except in your heads? As I have shown here, ANY crazy claim can be difficult to disprove.

Discuss, all you True Believers! Thanks!
QUOTE..
1) The existence of the universe demands an explanation. The order of the physical universe which ensures it adheres to laws which can be inferred suggests an intelligence behind the universe.

2) The genetic code in living organisms precludes the possibility they arose naturally. Natural processes CAN'T give rise to codes which don't follow natural laws. As humans, we know that codes are always made by conscious effort so the presence of codes in living things is grounds to infer that God exists.

3) Consciousness in man is not explainable by materialistic means. Emergence can't explain consciousness since typically it deals with new physical properties that arise due to complex interactions. But the consciousness isn't physical and so can't be explained by purely material means more so since physical things lack consciousness. This is good grounds to believe that a God that effects consciousness exists.

May I ask for the source of your quotes?
Iredia
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/4/2015 11:10:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Iredia?

WTF. Never heard of it. How about posting a science-based source that postulates a need for God? And tell me in your own words ONE THING that cannot be explained by usuing natural laws and apsects of physics, Cosmology, Thermodynamics, and biology.

Do you know that 98% of all Cosmologists, and in fact, the National Academy for the Sciences are Atheists? They simply see no reason to add a fictional god into their proofs and equations regarding the origin of the Cosmos.

Iredia? LOL.

Really?

Well, I can post science, peer-reviewed (do you know what that means?) links till the cows come home.

Here's one. I highly doubt you will read it, but you should. It will help you come into the light, my friend.

http://www.vexen.co.uk...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Serato
Posts: 743
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6/4/2015 11:32:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 6:28:13 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 6/3/2015 10:12:07 PM, Serato wrote:
I suppose it's important to note to everyone that saint - of - me is preaching the beginning stages to luciferian doctrines. These rotten scoundrels are conditioned to be self-absorbed to one's own ego. Everything is about the "me", rather than acknowledge their soul or spirit. The ego has no problem with this because it wishes to be king of its domain and can do no wrong. The ego thinks it self always as a saint. With that said, Saint-of-Me, if he ever decides to check the ego, he'll then realize that Jesus was real. Jesus was not an invisible dragon. Jesus is God.

Your posts are all about you and your serious problems!

My posting history has been largely a defense for biblical legitimacy, and since you've reduced carelessly and with intellectual absence, the Bible to be no greater than a Harry Potter book, and since you've never offered anything productive for discussion other than relentlessly and childishly engaging hit & run personal attacks to all posters not aligned with your assessment made from the age of 19 that God does not exist, and all because you likely had an ice-cream cone fall on the floor and cursed God for such cruelty, considering all this, I'd say all future opinions from you from that moment are worthless. Have a nice day.
Serato
Posts: 743
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6/4/2015 11:51:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 7:12:52 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:48:41 AM, Serato wrote:
All faiths hold some truths.
Do you really think so?
Religions and gods are the creation of man, that is the truth of faiths.

Everything large and small happening around the world are effects from the unseen politics of the skies that will one day openly manifest to the disbelievers, if they're still alive. The Pharonic cults at CERN masquerading under the disguises of scientists are actively honing fallen angel technology to release the destroyer. You are incredibly naive. Moreover, your indolent curiosity is quickly becoming a threat to humanity.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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6/4/2015 11:56:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 11:51:44 AM, Serato wrote:
At 6/4/2015 7:12:52 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:48:41 AM, Serato wrote:
All faiths hold some truths.
Do you really think so?
Religions and gods are the creation of man, that is the truth of faiths.

Everything large and small happening around the world are effects from the unseen politics of the skies that will one day openly manifest to the disbelievers, if they're still alive. The Pharonic cults at CERN masquerading under the disguises of scientists are actively honing fallen angel technology to release the destroyer. You are incredibly naive. Moreover, your indolent curiosity is quickly becoming a threat to humanity.

I think your drug use is quickly becoming a hindrance to your capacity to function as a human being.
Serato
Posts: 743
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6/4/2015 12:09:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 11:56:40 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/4/2015 11:51:44 AM, Serato wrote:
At 6/4/2015 7:12:52 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:48:41 AM, Serato wrote:
All faiths hold some truths.
Do you really think so?
Religions and gods are the creation of man, that is the truth of faiths.

Everything large and small happening around the world are effects from the unseen politics of the skies that will one day openly manifest to the disbelievers, if they're still alive. The Pharonic cults at CERN masquerading under the disguises of scientists are actively honing fallen angel technology to release the destroyer. You are incredibly naive. Moreover, your indolent curiosity is quickly becoming a threat to humanity.

I think your drug use is quickly becoming a hindrance to your capacity to function as a human being.

I do not take drugs nor drink. Your seething character assassinations are typically actions of a shill. You also admitted to being lowly mason. The beliefs of new age masons have been infected from the days of the old. Freemasons now are sadistic in nature and they are brainwashed.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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6/4/2015 12:12:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:09:15 PM, Serato wrote:
At 6/4/2015 11:56:40 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/4/2015 11:51:44 AM, Serato wrote:
At 6/4/2015 7:12:52 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:48:41 AM, Serato wrote:
All faiths hold some truths.
Do you really think so?
Religions and gods are the creation of man, that is the truth of faiths.

Everything large and small happening around the world are effects from the unseen politics of the skies that will one day openly manifest to the disbelievers, if they're still alive. The Pharonic cults at CERN masquerading under the disguises of scientists are actively honing fallen angel technology to release the destroyer. You are incredibly naive. Moreover, your indolent curiosity is quickly becoming a threat to humanity.

I think your drug use is quickly becoming a hindrance to your capacity to function as a human being.

I do not take drugs nor drink. Your seething character assassinations are typically actions of a shill. You also admitted to being lowly mason. The beliefs of new age masons have been infected from the days of the old. Freemasons now are sadistic in nature and they are brainwashed.

DMT.
Ya say what?