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The Trinity

Skepticalone
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6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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6/3/2015 5:20:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I'm short on time today so I'll give you the short answer - and it has nothing to do with the Trinity per se. We know it to be true because the Catholic Church infallibly proclaims it to be so. Now I know that this sounds like ridiculous hubris, however that is the truth of the matter. Jesus left 12 apostles with authority and the promise of all truth through the Holy Spirit. Those men passed their authority onto their successors. Under specific conditions, when the Magisterium of the Church proclaims something on faith and morals to be true, we can know it to be true.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/3/2015 5:24:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I never really believed the Trinity to be a distortion.

Well, at least not an egregious one, anyway.

More of a "different way of looking at something."

To me, I believe that, according to traditional Christian dogma, the Father is God.

The Son, is Jesus, the Christ. Or "Christos." The Annointed One.

And the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) is simply the conduit we use when we try to contact them through prayer or meditation.

And it also serves as the vehicle for which God bestows Grace or Salvation upon us.

So not really "3 Gods in One." But rather, three different "modes" or "conditions" or God. I like to use the metaphor of how water can be....water; ice; or steam.

Thanks!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,056
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6/4/2015 10:45:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Skepticalone Verse # 19 (above) in the name of the 1) Father and of the 2) Son and of the 3) Holy Spirit!!

QUESTION: Why three names for one God??! The SON is a name foe God and it denotes Jesus!
NOTE: When you speak for someone it means you are speaking "IN THEIR NAME"! The ambassador speaks for the country "in the name of the country"! The mayor speaks for the city "In the name of the city"!

The DISCIPLES are speaking for God! "In the name of God, Baptize all nations"!!
Make disciples of all nations by BAPTIZING THEM!

.......................... Baptism makes DISCIPLES! .......................

Skepticalone DISCIPLES are God' children!!!!!!
Baptism makes God' CHILDREN! So God needs to give his endorsement or approval in the BAPTISM! NO ONE...

Skepticalone no one can baptize themselves! No baby can form themselves.. It takes two, two, two parents not just one; Bride (Church) and Groom (God)!

LOOK... 48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.

DO YOU...
Skepticalone do you see it (above) "DISCIPLES are Jesus' brothers"!!
DISCIPLES are made by BAPTIZING! (above-above)

IF...
Skepticalone if you are baptized and Jesus' is your brother then God would be your father!!! "Baptism makes God' children!"

Speaking for GOD... In the name of GOD... Make DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS!
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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6/4/2015 2:20:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I am certain that it is distortion.

For me it is enough what the Bible tells and according to it:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Corinthians 8:4-6

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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6/4/2015 3:16:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I don't think the Bible needs to give an explicit teaching about the Trinity in order for us to arrive at the conclusion that the Trinity is Biblical. Let me use an analogy to explain why.

Let's suppose, hypothetically, that the Bible contains these two statements:

1. All men are mortal.
2. Socrates is a man.

And let's suppose that the Bible nowhere explicitly says that Socrates is mortal. Obviously, it wouldn't follow that just because the Bible doesn't explicitly say, "Socrates is mortal," that therefore the Bible doesn't support Socrates being mortal. From the two premises above, one can deduce with certainty that Socrates is mortal. In that case, the Bible would absolutely support Socrates being mortal. It would support it with such inexcapable certainty, that Socrates being moral could be considered the Biblical position on the mortality of Socrates.

Well, the Trinity is the same way. The Trinity is deduced from several claims that ARE in the Bible. According to the Bible, there's only one God. The Bible also makes it clear that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each God. And the Bible makes it clear that the three are distinct persons. The only way for all of these various statements to hang together consistently is the doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity is Biblical because it can be deduced from statements made in the Bible.

Debates on the Trinity should center around whether the Bible actually makes the claims from which we deduce the Trinity, e.g. whether it's really does say there's only one God, or whether it really does say Jesus is God, etc.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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6/4/2015 4:08:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 10:45:09 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Skepticalone Verse # 19 (above) in the name of the 1) Father and of the 2) Son and of the 3) Holy Spirit!!

QUESTION: Why three names for one God??! The SON is a name foe God and it denotes Jesus!
NOTE: When you speak for someone it means you are speaking "IN THEIR NAME"! The ambassador speaks for the country "in the name of the country"! The mayor speaks for the city "In the name of the city"!

The DISCIPLES are speaking for God! "In the name of God, Baptize all nations"!!
Make disciples of all nations by BAPTIZING THEM!

.......................... Baptism makes DISCIPLES! .......................

Skepticalone DISCIPLES are God' children!!!!!!
Baptism makes God' CHILDREN! So God needs to give his endorsement or approval in the BAPTISM! NO ONE...

Skepticalone no one can baptize themselves! No baby can form themselves.. It takes two, two, two parents not just one; Bride (Church) and Groom (God)!

LOOK... 48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.

DO YOU...
Skepticalone do you see it (above) "DISCIPLES are Jesus' brothers"!!
DISCIPLES are made by BAPTIZING! (above-above)

IF...
Skepticalone if you are baptized and Jesus' is your brother then God would be your father!!! "Baptism makes God' children!"

Speaking for GOD... In the name of GOD... Make DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS!

Does this logic not make all believers God or part of God? This doesn't really seem to directly address the Trinity - in fact it seems to be an argument against it.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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6/4/2015 4:17:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I do not personally use the word "trinity" very much (preferring the word godhead), but the concept is implied, necessarily implied, beginning (as you said) with the plurals elohim, us, etc. Of course, us doesn't necessarily mean "three", but it means "more than one." It could be twenty.

I believe the Bible teaches one God composed of three distinct persons, each with different missions. I would not claim to fully understand it, but it beats the other claims.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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6/4/2015 4:43:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 3:16:34 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I don't think the Bible needs to give an explicit teaching about the Trinity in order for us to arrive at the conclusion that the Trinity is Biblical. Let me use an analogy to explain why.

Let's suppose, hypothetically, that the Bible contains these two statements:

1. All men are mortal.
2. Socrates is a man.

And let's suppose that the Bible nowhere explicitly says that Socrates is mortal. Obviously, it wouldn't follow that just because the Bible doesn't explicitly say, "Socrates is mortal," that therefore the Bible doesn't support Socrates being mortal. From the two premises above, one can deduce with certainty that Socrates is mortal. In that case, the Bible would absolutely support Socrates being mortal. It would support it with such inexcapable certainty, that Socrates being moral could be considered the Biblical position on the mortality of Socrates.

Well, the Trinity is the same way. The Trinity is deduced from several claims that ARE in the Bible. According to the Bible, there's only one God. The Bible also makes it clear that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each God. And the Bible makes it clear that the three are distinct persons. The only way for all of these various statements to hang together consistently is the doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity is Biblical because it can be deduced from statements made in the Bible.

Debates on the Trinity should center around whether the Bible actually makes the claims from which we deduce the Trinity, e.g. whether it's really does say there's only one God, or whether it really does say Jesus is God, etc.

I would have to dive into the subject again, but I think we can arrive at different conclusions about what the gospel writers thought of Jesus' divinity. Obviously, John would be on the 'Jesus is God' side, but it is not so clear with the synoptic gospels. The Jesus portrayal in John, being written much later than the others, could be the result of embellishment or legend, no? Again - take this with a grain of salt - it has been a while since I have looked at anything along these lines.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Dogknox
Posts: 5,056
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6/4/2015 9:46:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 4:08:58 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 10:45:09 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Skepticalone Verse # 19 (above) in the name of the 1) Father and of the 2) Son and of the 3) Holy Spirit!!

QUESTION: Why three names for one God??! The SON is a name foe God and it denotes Jesus!
NOTE: When you speak for someone it means you are speaking "IN THEIR NAME"! The ambassador speaks for the country "in the name of the country"! The mayor speaks for the city "In the name of the city"!

The DISCIPLES are speaking for God! "In the name of God, Baptize all nations"!!
Make disciples of all nations by BAPTIZING THEM!

.......................... Baptism makes DISCIPLES! .......................

Skepticalone DISCIPLES are God' children!!!!!!
Baptism makes God' CHILDREN! So God needs to give his endorsement or approval in the BAPTISM! NO ONE...

Skepticalone no one can baptize themselves! No baby can form themselves.. It takes two, two, two parents not just one; Bride (Church) and Groom (God)!

LOOK... 48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.

DO YOU...
Skepticalone do you see it (above) "DISCIPLES are Jesus' brothers"!!
DISCIPLES are made by BAPTIZING! (above-above)

IF...
Skepticalone if you are baptized and Jesus' is your brother then God would be your father!!! "Baptism makes God' children!"

Speaking for GOD... In the name of GOD... Make DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS!

Does this logic not make all believers God or part of God? This doesn't really seem to directly address the Trinity - in fact it seems to be an argument against it.

It makes all who believe Baptism saves "Children of God"! IF...
If you are God' child then you have an inheritance.

Baptism ADDS people of all nations to the Body of Jesus....
Skepticalone God has only one son.. Scriptures tell you; God has only one son.. Jesus! To be a Child Of God you must be "ADDED" to Jesus' holy Body!
Accipiter
Posts: 1,163
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6/4/2015 10:32:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 5:20:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I'm short on time today so I'll give you the short answer - and it has nothing to do with the Trinity per se. We know it to be true because the Catholic Church infallibly proclaims it to be so. Now I know that this sounds like ridiculous hubris, however that is the truth of the matter. Jesus left 12 apostles with authority and the promise of all truth through the Holy Spirit. Those men passed their authority onto their successors. Under specific conditions, when the Magisterium of the Church proclaims something on faith and morals to be true, we can know it to be true.

Oh come on, the Catholic Church is NOT infallible.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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6/5/2015 1:44:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 10:32:05 PM, Accipiter wrote:
At 6/3/2015 5:20:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I'm short on time today so I'll give you the short answer - and it has nothing to do with the Trinity per se. We know it to be true because the Catholic Church infallibly proclaims it to be so. Now I know that this sounds like ridiculous hubris, however that is the truth of the matter. Jesus left 12 apostles with authority and the promise of all truth through the Holy Spirit. Those men passed their authority onto their successors. Under specific conditions, when the Magisterium of the Church proclaims something on faith and morals to be true, we can know it to be true.

Oh come on, the Catholic Church is NOT infallible.

It's teachings on faith and morals are.
Accipiter
Posts: 1,163
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6/5/2015 2:58:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 1:44:16 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/4/2015 10:32:05 PM, Accipiter wrote:
At 6/3/2015 5:20:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I'm short on time today so I'll give you the short answer - and it has nothing to do with the Trinity per se. We know it to be true because the Catholic Church infallibly proclaims it to be so. Now I know that this sounds like ridiculous hubris, however that is the truth of the matter. Jesus left 12 apostles with authority and the promise of all truth through the Holy Spirit. Those men passed their authority onto their successors. Under specific conditions, when the Magisterium of the Church proclaims something on faith and morals to be true, we can know it to be true.

Oh come on, the Catholic Church is NOT infallible.

It's teachings on faith and morals are.

You think that your religion invented faith and morals and nothing could be farther from the truth.

You stupid Christians have an annoying habit of picking up things that already exist and then claiming you thought of it first.

You are all frauds.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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6/5/2015 3:11:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 2:58:47 AM, Accipiter wrote:
At 6/5/2015 1:44:16 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/4/2015 10:32:05 PM, Accipiter wrote:
At 6/3/2015 5:20:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I'm short on time today so I'll give you the short answer - and it has nothing to do with the Trinity per se. We know it to be true because the Catholic Church infallibly proclaims it to be so. Now I know that this sounds like ridiculous hubris, however that is the truth of the matter. Jesus left 12 apostles with authority and the promise of all truth through the Holy Spirit. Those men passed their authority onto their successors. Under specific conditions, when the Magisterium of the Church proclaims something on faith and morals to be true, we can know it to be true.

Oh come on, the Catholic Church is NOT infallible.

It's teachings on faith and morals are.



You think that your religion invented faith and morals and nothing could be farther from the truth.

Please show me where I claimed that. I'll wait...

You stupid Christians have an annoying habit of picking up things that already exist and then claiming you thought of it first.

You are all frauds.

An easy claim to make when you straw man.
bulproof
Posts: 25,218
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6/5/2015 7:57:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 1:44:16 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/4/2015 10:32:05 PM, Accipiter wrote:
At 6/3/2015 5:20:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I'm short on time today so I'll give you the short answer - and it has nothing to do with the Trinity per se. We know it to be true because the Catholic Church infallibly proclaims it to be so. Now I know that this sounds like ridiculous hubris, however that is the truth of the matter. Jesus left 12 apostles with authority and the promise of all truth through the Holy Spirit. Those men passed their authority onto their successors. Under specific conditions, when the Magisterium of the Church proclaims something on faith and morals to be true, we can know it to be true.

Oh come on, the Catholic Church is NOT infallible.

It's teachings on faith and morals are.

Do the rockchoppers consider the writings in the OT to be a part of that infallible moral capacity?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,608
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6/5/2015 11:22:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 1:44:16 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/4/2015 10:32:05 PM, Accipiter wrote:

Oh come on, the Catholic Church is NOT infallible.

It's teachings on faith and morals are.

Yes, like sex with boys.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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6/5/2015 11:23:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 9:46:27 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/4/2015 4:08:58 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 10:45:09 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Skepticalone Verse # 19 (above) in the name of the 1) Father and of the 2) Son and of the 3) Holy Spirit!!

QUESTION: Why three names for one God??! The SON is a name foe God and it denotes Jesus!
NOTE: When you speak for someone it means you are speaking "IN THEIR NAME"! The ambassador speaks for the country "in the name of the country"! The mayor speaks for the city "In the name of the city"!

The DISCIPLES are speaking for God! "In the name of God, Baptize all nations"!!
Make disciples of all nations by BAPTIZING THEM!

.......................... Baptism makes DISCIPLES! .......................

Skepticalone DISCIPLES are God' children!!!!!!
Baptism makes God' CHILDREN! So God needs to give his endorsement or approval in the BAPTISM! NO ONE...

Skepticalone no one can baptize themselves! No baby can form themselves.. It takes two, two, two parents not just one; Bride (Church) and Groom (God)!

LOOK... 48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.

DO YOU...
Skepticalone do you see it (above) "DISCIPLES are Jesus' brothers"!!
DISCIPLES are made by BAPTIZING! (above-above)

IF...
Skepticalone if you are baptized and Jesus' is your brother then God would be your father!!! "Baptism makes God' children!"

Speaking for GOD... In the name of GOD... Make DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS!

Does this logic not make all believers God or part of God? This doesn't really seem to directly address the Trinity - in fact it seems to be an argument against it.

It makes all who believe Baptism saves "Children of God"! IF...
If you are God' child then you have an inheritance.

Baptism ADDS people of all nations to the Body of Jesus....
Skepticalone God has only one son.. Scriptures tell you; God has only one son.. Jesus! To be a Child Of God you must be "ADDED" to Jesus' holy Body!

We're all Gods, there is no Trinity - Got it.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
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6/5/2015 11:24:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 4:17:02 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I do not personally use the word "trinity" very much (preferring the word godhead), but the concept is implied, necessarily implied, beginning (as you said) with the plurals elohim, us, etc. Of course, us doesn't necessarily mean "three", but it means "more than one." It could be twenty.

I believe the Bible teaches one God composed of three distinct persons, each with different missions. I would not claim to fully understand it, but it beats the other claims.

What are the other claims - polytheism?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
annanicole
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6/5/2015 11:35:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 11:24:31 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 4:17:02 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I do not personally use the word "trinity" very much (preferring the word godhead), but the concept is implied, necessarily implied, beginning (as you said) with the plurals elohim, us, etc. Of course, us doesn't necessarily mean "three", but it means "more than one." It could be twenty.

I believe the Bible teaches one God composed of three distinct persons, each with different missions. I would not claim to fully understand it, but it beats the other claims.

What are the other claims - polytheism?

I suppose, plus the claim that God is actually only the Father, with the Son being "not God" and the "Holy Spirit" merely being a "force."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Accipiter
Posts: 1,163
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6/5/2015 2:03:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

Since man made god in his image what the trinity really means is me, myself and I.
Accipiter
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6/5/2015 2:46:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 11:22:43 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/5/2015 1:44:16 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/4/2015 10:32:05 PM, Accipiter wrote:

Oh come on, the Catholic Church is NOT infallible.

It's teachings on faith and morals are.

Yes, like sex with boys.

Catholics drafted the design of the most holiest of men and it turns out to be the same design as a child molester.

Pretty sure that's incompetence, religion turns it out by the boat load primarily because the bible teaches people things that are not true.
Accipiter
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6/5/2015 2:56:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 3:11:57 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/5/2015 2:58:47 AM, Accipiter wrote:
At 6/5/2015 1:44:16 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/4/2015 10:32:05 PM, Accipiter wrote:
At 6/3/2015 5:20:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I'm short on time today so I'll give you the short answer - and it has nothing to do with the Trinity per se. We know it to be true because the Catholic Church infallibly proclaims it to be so. Now I know that this sounds like ridiculous hubris, however that is the truth of the matter. Jesus left 12 apostles with authority and the promise of all truth through the Holy Spirit. Those men passed their authority onto their successors. Under specific conditions, when the Magisterium of the Church proclaims something on faith and morals to be true, we can know it to be true.

Oh come on, the Catholic Church is NOT infallible.

It's teachings on faith and morals are.



You think that your religion invented faith and morals and nothing could be farther from the truth.

Please show me where I claimed that. I'll wait...

You stupid Christians have an annoying habit of picking up things that already exist and then claiming you thought of it first.

You are all frauds.

An easy claim to make when you straw man.

It's not a claim it's the ultimate truth, your religion is cancer.
Skepticalone
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6/5/2015 5:29:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 11:35:50 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/5/2015 11:24:31 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 4:17:02 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I do not personally use the word "trinity" very much (preferring the word godhead), but the concept is implied, necessarily implied, beginning (as you said) with the plurals elohim, us, etc. Of course, us doesn't necessarily mean "three", but it means "more than one." It could be twenty.

I believe the Bible teaches one God composed of three distinct persons, each with different missions. I would not claim to fully understand it, but it beats the other claims.

What are the other claims - polytheism?

I suppose, plus the claim that God is actually only the Father, with the Son being "not God" and the "Holy Spirit" merely being a "force."

Did Jesus consider himself to be a god? I think that would be the question we would need to answer. I mentioned something along these lines to another poster.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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6/5/2015 6:14:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 5:29:20 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/5/2015 11:35:50 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/5/2015 11:24:31 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 4:17:02 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

I do not personally use the word "trinity" very much (preferring the word godhead), but the concept is implied, necessarily implied, beginning (as you said) with the plurals elohim, us, etc. Of course, us doesn't necessarily mean "three", but it means "more than one." It could be twenty.

I believe the Bible teaches one God composed of three distinct persons, each with different missions. I would not claim to fully understand it, but it beats the other claims.

What are the other claims - polytheism?

I suppose, plus the claim that God is actually only the Father, with the Son being "not God" and the "Holy Spirit" merely being a "force."

Did Jesus consider himself to be a god? I think that would be the question we would need to answer. I mentioned something along these lines to another poster.

The spirit within Jesus is the part that was God - not the physical body. Certainly He knew that, as evidenced by His statement in John 8: 58, "Before Abraham was, I am."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/5/2015 6:15:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

Consider the word "Elohiym"... It is translated as "God", implying a creator in Genesis 1:1 In the beginning Elohiym ( God) created....

Also translated as "gods" referring to humans in Psalm 82:6 Ye (referring to people) are Elohiym (gods)

Also translated as "angels" in Psalm 8:5. .. a little lower than Elohiym ( angels)

The concept of "Trinity" comes from the human perception of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
That trinity perception is also found in many pagan myths about gods.

However, if you take into account that "Elohiym" is far more than three when it comes to referring to people (gods) and angels.. Those subjects are innumerable. Why would any creator "God" ( "Elohiym") be only three?
If "Elohiym" ( MANY) created "Elohiym" in the image of "Elohiym", would the MANY INNUMERABLE not create MANY in the image of MANY........or would THREE create THREE in the image of THREE?

Confining God ( Elohiym) to a Trinity is simply foolish and restricts God to three manifestations rather than understanding the concept of "Elohiym" as something innumerable and infinite which has an infinite amount of manifestations and is never confined to three of anything or three aspects of anything.

"God" confined to a "Trinity" is a deception which leads gullible people astray.
Dogknox
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6/5/2015 9:18:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 11:23:36 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:46:27 PM, Dogknox wrote:

Baptism ADDS people of all nations to the Body of Jesus....
Skepticalone God has only one son.. Scriptures tell you; God has only one son.. Jesus! To be a Child Of God you must be "ADDED" to Jesus' holy Body!

We're all Gods, there is no Trinity - Got it.

Skepticalone Think: There was a man named "Arius" he was a Christian he was AMONG Christians! Until he was charged with teaching FALSE Teaching! His teaching was there is no Trinity. Arius was removed from Christians and declared a Heretic!
Skepticalone Christians have ALWAYS taught Jesus is God!
LOOK.. This is prophesy... Scriptures warn Christians about men like Arius!
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them"bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.


DO YOU SEE IT? will be false teachers among you!!
This prophesy cannot work in the reverse.. "Christians were NOT AMONG Arius!"
"Arius was AMONG Christians"!
This warning proves Arius' teaching is a LIE; He MUST BE A FALSE TEACHER!!
This warning proves Arius' teaching is a LIE; Teaching Jesus is not God!
It proves the Christians are "The Way of Truth"! ..will bring the way of truth into disrepute
It proves all who believe "Jesus is NOT god" are Not in truth, Proving they are NOT the way of truth!

Skepticalone Satan also does NOT believe Jesus is God! He has his hand in the teaching you have placed the very salvation of your soul in!
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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6/5/2015 9:42:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This topic is directed towards Christians and any who can participate as though the Christian god might exist (for the sake of the argument).

The Trinity is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the Bible. We can see plurals being used in various verses -us,Elohim, etc., as well as different names for god being used - Jesus, the Son, the Father, Lord, YHWH, the Holy Spirit, etc. However, we never see an explicit statement of the three in one Godhead anywhere in the Bible. Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

Yes, the Trinity is not mentioned by name anywhere in the Bible. This is not surprising, as 'Trinity' is a Latin term, and the New Testament was written in Greek.

The belief in the Trinity comes from reading all of the New Testament. The New Testament clearly affirms the deity of God the Father (Yahweh) teaches the deity and sonship of Jesus, as well as the deity of the Holy Spirit. Since the Bible also strongly affirms that there are not three Gods, but one, the standard explanation has been the Trinity - that is, the the one eternal God consists of three co-equal and co-eternal persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).

That is the standard belief. Although there are and have been many other competing views (most commonly modalism), they aren't really valid when in the whole context of the New Testament. This is a belief that is credible enough to survive even without he Comma Johanneum, a bible verse that clearly laid out the Trinity but doesn't appear in early manuscripts. The fact that most Bible translators (by all means orthodox, Trinitarian Christians) remove that verse shows how confident we are in our interpretation.

I welcome your considered and civil responses.

For my part, I appreciate the civil request. :)
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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6/5/2015 11:03:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
trinitarians can blunder & babble on as much as they like claiming there is legitimate evidence in the biblical Story book, however their fatal flaw remains that -

1. The bible is a 100% human devised Story book containing Historical MYTHICAL characters like jebus, Pauly & apsotles but regardless -

2. "At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian"It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461)

Hence trinitarians are proposing & perpetuating a corruption of those earliest & original beliefs!

QED
radz
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7/8/2015 9:04:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 2:20:17 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/3/2015 4:52:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Are we certain that the concept of Trinity is not a distortion of what the Bible actually says about God?

I am certain that it is distortion.

For me it is enough what the Bible tells and according to it:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Corinthians 8:4-6

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

The Son is the copy (exact likeness) of the Father's own nature. ~ Hebrews 1:3b

The Son is not the copy of the Father's person ( KJV) but of the Father's nature (ESV).

The copy is not the original.Nevertheless, they are the same in what they contain.

Analogy: A photo (copy) contains the same picture/letter the original copy contains.

The nature of Jesus is a copy of the original nature (i.e. the Father's own nature).

The Father is eternal (Ps. 90:2).
The Son is eternal (Mic. 5:2)

The Father is God ( John 17:3)
The Son is God ( John 1:1, 18, 20:28;Romans 9:5;Titus 2:13;Hebrews 1:8)

The Father is one Lord (Deut. 6:4)
The Son is one Lord (1 Cor. 8:6)

The Father receives prayers (Matthew 6;John 17)
The Son receives prayers (John 14:14;1 Cor16:22)

The Father receives latriatic worship (Matthew 4:10;Rev 22:3)
The Son receives latriatic worship (Daniel 7:14 LXX;Rev5:13,14:4, 22:3)

The Father has all his fullness (Col 1:19)
The Son has all the fullness of the Godhead (Col 2:9)
12_13
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7/8/2015 10:56:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 9:04:54 AM, radz wrote:
The copy is not the original.Nevertheless, they are the same in what they contain.

Analogy: A photo (copy) contains the same picture/letter the original copy contains.

I agree that Jesus is the image of God, because Bible says:

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
Colossians 1:14-16

And as you may understand, image is always less than the object of image. That is why Jesus also admits that the only true God is greater than him.

You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

Or what do you think, would you pay as much for house as for the picture of the house? I don"t think so.

I also think you should know, disciples of Jesus should also be one with God. It doesn"t mean that all disciples are then also God.

I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11

that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
John 17:21

Jesus is the King, you should listen to him.