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What would Jesus do?

dhardage
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6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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6/4/2015 10:05:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

If Jesus was around today I bet he wouldn't want guys like him in his club, or a load of extreme Christians who claim to be his followers!
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,371
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6/4/2015 11:33:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

The problem (IMO) is that our society is bound up in media characters whether they be the Kardashians, an athlete involved in substance abuse, and.....televangelists. If we judge humanity on who is getting the major headlines it's generally not going to be positive. I don't know people you know, you don't know people I know, but we both know who Obama is, so that's someone we can relate to in a discussion.

There are media ministers (TV and or radio ministries) out there that don't fit the mold of the televangelist with the private jet (I'm not making any judgment on that). However, to find these ministers you would have to search the airways and/or internet as opposed to having the news of them thrown at you from some other source that gives you news you may not be purposely looking for.

Some ministers, to avoid the appearance of lavish living will purposely live in modest accommodations, drive modest cars, etc. For instance, there's a missionary in China from a church I used to attend who lived in a modest apartment with his wife and kids in Hong Kong. The church decided that he should live in better accommodations, so the church decided to pay for a larger apartment. He didn't want to do that. He wanted to remain where he was. He finally gave in I think mostly to avoid denying the church the blessed feeling of helping him and his family out. This missionary is not a TV or radio minister, but he did get a little bit of national notoriety when he was arrested in China a number of years ago.

http://www.charismanews.com...

He is one of many examples.

I'm going to do something a bit unusual (for me). Since you view the actions of Creflo Dollar as an example of religion being harmful, I'm linking you to a website from a radio minister who doesn't even have a car (unless he just got one, and would probably have been a donation). His radio broadcasts I believe are from his, or the home of someone else. His public appearances consist of a meeting in someone's living room (usually, if not always in Southern California).

You can do one of a number of things here. You can check his website to see which radio stations broadcast his 2 radio talk shows, and if you find one locally you can tune in. Or, you can listen to his radio broadcast on line (one in the morning, one in the afternoon I believe). Or, you can go to his radio archive and listen (for free) to any radio show from any day you choose. You can also listen (for free) to some of his lectures on specific topics. You can also (for free) listen to his segmented lectures on the entire Bible.

If you do this, then you can maybe tell me whether or not you think this particular minister is an example of religion being harmful.

http://www.thenarrowpath.com...
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/4/2015 12:06:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 11:33:22 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

The problem (IMO) is that our society is bound up in media characters whether they be the Kardashians, an athlete involved in substance abuse, and.....televangelists. If we judge humanity on who is getting the major headlines it's generally not going to be positive. I don't know people you know, you don't know people I know, but we both know who Obama is, so that's someone we can relate to in a discussion.

There are media ministers (TV and or radio ministries) out there that don't fit the mold of the televangelist with the private jet (I'm not making any judgment on that). However, to find these ministers you would have to search the airways and/or internet as opposed to having the news of them thrown at you from some other source that gives you news you may not be purposely looking for.

Some ministers, to avoid the appearance of lavish living will purposely live in modest accommodations, drive modest cars, etc. For instance, there's a missionary in China from a church I used to attend who lived in a modest apartment with his wife and kids in Hong Kong. The church decided that he should live in better accommodations, so the church decided to pay for a larger apartment. He didn't want to do that. He wanted to remain where he was. He finally gave in I think mostly to avoid denying the church the blessed feeling of helping him and his family out. This missionary is not a TV or radio minister, but he did get a little bit of national notoriety when he was arrested in China a number of years ago.

http://www.charismanews.com...

He is one of many examples.

I'm going to do something a bit unusual (for me). Since you view the actions of Creflo Dollar as an example of religion being harmful, I'm linking you to a website from a radio minister who doesn't even have a car (unless he just got one, and would probably have been a donation). His radio broadcasts I believe are from his, or the home of someone else. His public appearances consist of a meeting in someone's living room (usually, if not always in Southern California).

You can do one of a number of things here. You can check his website to see which radio stations broadcast his 2 radio talk shows, and if you find one locally you can tune in. Or, you can listen to his radio broadcast on line (one in the morning, one in the afternoon I believe). Or, you can go to his radio archive and listen (for free) to any radio show from any day you choose. You can also listen (for free) to some of his lectures on specific topics. You can also (for free) listen to his segmented lectures on the entire Bible.

If you do this, then you can maybe tell me whether or not you think this particular minister is an example of religion being harmful.

http://www.thenarrowpath.com...

Forgive me but there have been religious leaders living in luxury while their followers remain in abject poverty for centuries. If you walk into the poorest village in most highly religious countries you will find the nicest building is the church. I don't deny that there are many good people out there who are religious and theistic. The problem is that religion is so easily perverted and used as a tool for manipulation of good people. It can be so blinding that they don't see just how bad it is.
bulproof
Posts: 25,210
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6/4/2015 12:35:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 11:33:22 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
There are media ministers (TV and or radio ministries) out there that don't fit the mold of the televangelist with the private jet (I'm not making any judgment on that).
Why wouldn't you make a judgment on that?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/4/2015 12:41:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

In all fairness to Christians, we agnostics are NOT non-believers in the dvinity of Jesus,or the Omnisicence of God just because of the actions of hypocritical self-proclaimed Christians like the tool in the OP.

Those guys are merely flawed humans. Like the rest of us. Jesus warned us about them. The false prophets. The "wolves" that would be coming after JC's "sheep."

They are exercising their Free Will. They will be repaid in kind when the time of reckoning comes around. But the un-Christian acts of some folks who claim to follow the teaching of Jesus do not in any way denigrate the power of his Word. They just show me that some guys don't get it. Don't blame JC or good Christians. They tried.

To use the loathsome acts of certain individuals as a reason to lambast all of Christianity is to sadly miss the point. And to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/4/2015 12:50:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:41:13 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

In all fairness to Christians, we agnostics are NOT non-believers in the dvinity of Jesus,or the Omnisicence of God just because of the actions of hypocritical self-proclaimed Christians like the tool in the OP.

Those guys are merely flawed humans. Like the rest of us. Jesus warned us about them. The false prophets. The "wolves" that would be coming after JC's "sheep."

They are exercising their Free Will. They will be repaid in kind when the time of reckoning comes around.

I thought you were agnostic? That sounds fairly theistic and Christian to me.

But the un-Christian acts of some folks who claim to follow the teaching of Jesus do not in any way denigrate the power of his Word. They just show me that some guys don't get it. Don't blame JC or good Christians. They tried.

These guys claim to be Christians too. Christians tried to run Europe and we got the Dark Ages. Christians run the Catholic Church and we get a hierarchy that not only permits but facilitates the abuse of little boys by pedophile priests and covers it up for the dignity of the church. One cannot separate the belief from the believers for with the latter the former would not exist.

To use the loathsome acts of certain individuals as a reason to lambast all of Christianity is to sadly miss the point.

You miss the point. This is but one example of how religion is used for the benefit of the few. It's the rule, not the exception.

;And to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

A poor analogy since the belief is fully dependent upon the believers for its existence. One cannot speak of one without the other.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/4/2015 12:59:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:50:19 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:41:13 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

In all fairness to Christians, we agnostics are NOT non-believers in the dvinity of Jesus,or the Omnisicence of God just because of the actions of hypocritical self-proclaimed Christians like the tool in the OP.

Those guys are merely flawed humans. Like the rest of us. Jesus warned us about them. The false prophets. The "wolves" that would be coming after JC's "sheep."

They are exercising their Free Will. They will be repaid in kind when the time of reckoning comes around.

I thought you were agnostic? That sounds fairly theistic and Christian to me.

But the un-Christian acts of some folks who claim to follow the teaching of Jesus do not in any way denigrate the power of his Word. They just show me that some guys don't get it. Don't blame JC or good Christians. They tried.

These guys claim to be Christians too. Christians tried to run Europe and we got the Dark Ages. Christians run the Catholic Church and we get a hierarchy that not only permits but facilitates the abuse of little boys by pedophile priests and covers it up for the dignity of the church. One cannot separate the belief from the believers for with the latter the former would not exist.

To use the loathsome acts of certain individuals as a reason to lambast all of Christianity is to sadly miss the point.

You miss the point. This is but one example of how religion is used for the benefit of the few. It's the rule, not the exception.

;And to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

A poor analogy since the belief is fully dependent upon the believers for its existence. One cannot speak of one without the other.

I miss no point.

I am fully aware that SOME people use religion in order to support their own agenda, which is usually one of control. Or financial gain.

And while I do not like it, and in fact agree that it has been a primary factor in driving me from religion--I was raised Catholic--I still maintain that it is not God's fault..were he to actually exist. I am speaking in the context of Christian theodicy here. God gave us Free Will. Without which we would not be humans. We could not learn.

So...you get idiots who misuse it and also skew their religious beliefs in order to exercise control of the gullible.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/4/2015 2:40:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:59:03 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:50:19 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:41:13 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

In all fairness to Christians, we agnostics are NOT non-believers in the dvinity of Jesus,or the Omnisicence of God just because of the actions of hypocritical self-proclaimed Christians like the tool in the OP.

Those guys are merely flawed humans. Like the rest of us. Jesus warned us about them. The false prophets. The "wolves" that would be coming after JC's "sheep."

They are exercising their Free Will. They will be repaid in kind when the time of reckoning comes around.

I thought you were agnostic? That sounds fairly theistic and Christian to me.

But the un-Christian acts of some folks who claim to follow the teaching of Jesus do not in any way denigrate the power of his Word. They just show me that some guys don't get it. Don't blame JC or good Christians. They tried.

These guys claim to be Christians too. Christians tried to run Europe and we got the Dark Ages. Christians run the Catholic Church and we get a hierarchy that not only permits but facilitates the abuse of little boys by pedophile priests and covers it up for the dignity of the church. One cannot separate the belief from the believers for with the latter the former would not exist.

To use the loathsome acts of certain individuals as a reason to lambast all of Christianity is to sadly miss the point.

You miss the point. This is but one example of how religion is used for the benefit of the few. It's the rule, not the exception.

;And to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

A poor analogy since the belief is fully dependent upon the believers for its existence. One cannot speak of one without the other.

I miss no point.

I am fully aware that SOME people use religion in order to support their own agenda, which is usually one of control. Or financial gain.

And while I do not like it, and in fact agree that it has been a primary factor in driving me from religion--I was raised Catholic--I still maintain that it is not God's fault..were he to actually exist. I am speaking in the context of Christian theodicy here. God gave us Free Will. Without which we would not be humans. We could not learn.

God, if he existed and as the Alpha and Omega of the Christian bible, created everything and controls everything so he is solely responsible for everything that happens in this universe of his. The corollary of power is responsibility and omnipotent means omniresponsible. (Yeah, I know it's not a word but it should be). It wouldn't take much for an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being who is supposed to be the source of all good to find a better way to 'teach' us than saddle us with idiots who use him for their own purposes. Where's the righteous wrath he had when he struck down the first born of Egypt? When he drowned the world in a flood? Why can 't he actually punish those who would sin so egregiously as he used to?

So...you get idiots who misuse it and also skew their religious beliefs in order to exercise control of the gullible.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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6/4/2015 3:21:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

It seems to me people ought to focus more heavily on whether a religion is true than on whether it is harmful. Saying that religion is harmful because some religious people exploit their followers is like saying restaurants are harmful because some cooks spit in their customer's food. Anything can be made out to be harmful with that kind of reasoning. But just as there is good food and bad food, so also is there good religion and bad religion. It's absurd to pain food or religion with such a broad brush.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/4/2015 3:41:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 3:21:16 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

It seems to me people ought to focus more heavily on whether a religion is true than on whether it is harmful. Saying that religion is harmful because some religious people exploit their followers is like saying restaurants are harmful because some cooks spit in their customer's food. Anything can be made out to be harmful with that kind of reasoning. But just as there is good food and bad food, so also is there good religion and bad religion. It's absurd to pain food or religion with such a broad brush.

Hardly, since food and religion are intrinsically different. Food is something essential to our existence. Religion is something we could easily life without and, in my opinion, would be better off without. Once again, you cannot separate a belief from its believers since the former's continued existence is wholly dependent on a continuous supply of the latter.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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6/4/2015 3:53:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 3:41:14 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/4/2015 3:21:16 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

It seems to me people ought to focus more heavily on whether a religion is true than on whether it is harmful. Saying that religion is harmful because some religious people exploit their followers is like saying restaurants are harmful because some cooks spit in their customer's food. Anything can be made out to be harmful with that kind of reasoning. But just as there is good food and bad food, so also is there good religion and bad religion. It's absurd to pain food or religion with such a broad brush.

Hardly, since food and religion are intrinsically different. Food is something essential to our existence. Religion is something we could easily life without and, in my opinion, would be better off without. Once again, you cannot separate a belief from its believers since the former's continued existence is wholly dependent on a continuous supply of the latter.

You are drawing an irrelevant disanalogy since the goodness of food does not consist solely in the fact that it's necessary for life. Going out to eat at a restaurant is good because it brings pleasure. Food is enjoyable. The fact that not all food is enjoyable does not detract in any way from food being enjoyable. Likewise, the fact that not all religious practice is good does not make religion as a whole bad.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/4/2015 4:04:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 3:53:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/4/2015 3:41:14 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/4/2015 3:21:16 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

It seems to me people ought to focus more heavily on whether a religion is true than on whether it is harmful. Saying that religion is harmful because some religious people exploit their followers is like saying restaurants are harmful because some cooks spit in their customer's food. Anything can be made out to be harmful with that kind of reasoning. But just as there is good food and bad food, so also is there good religion and bad religion. It's absurd to pain food or religion with such a broad brush.

Hardly, since food and religion are intrinsically different. Food is something essential to our existence. Religion is something we could easily life without and, in my opinion, would be better off without. Once again, you cannot separate a belief from its believers since the former's continued existence is wholly dependent on a continuous supply of the latter.

You are drawing an irrelevant disanalogy since the goodness of food does not consist solely in the fact that it's necessary for life. Going out to eat at a restaurant is good because it brings pleasure. Food is enjoyable. The fact that not all food is enjoyable does not detract in any way from food being enjoyable. Likewise, the fact that not all religious practice is good does not make religion as a whole bad.

You are conflating something that humans need to survive with something that needs humans to survive. Please make better analogy since this one is flawed and not truly representative.
Pase66
Posts: 775
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6/4/2015 4:07:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

Say what you will about televangelists, but those guys know how to make easy money... really easy money....
Check out these Current Debates
It Cannot be Shown that The Qur'an is Revelation from God
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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,070
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6/4/2015 4:08:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
To be fair, a nice church building in a poor village is enjoyed by the entire local church, not just the pastor.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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dhardage
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6/4/2015 4:11:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 4:07:03 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

Say what you will about televangelists, but those guys know how to make easy money... really easy money....

Yeah, if I had the total lack of morals necessary to fleece thousands of people of money, many who could not afford it, I could be one too.
Pase66
Posts: 775
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6/4/2015 4:13:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 4:11:55 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/4/2015 4:07:03 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

Say what you will about televangelists, but those guys know how to make easy money... really easy money....

Yeah, if I had the total lack of morals necessary to fleece thousands of people of money, many who could not afford it, I could be one too.

Yep.... I could do it (lets be honest, anyone could)..... but I choose not to.
Check out these Current Debates
It Cannot be Shown that The Qur'an is Revelation from God
http://www.debate.org...
philochristos
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6/4/2015 4:25:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 4:04:51 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/4/2015 3:53:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/4/2015 3:41:14 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/4/2015 3:21:16 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

It seems to me people ought to focus more heavily on whether a religion is true than on whether it is harmful. Saying that religion is harmful because some religious people exploit their followers is like saying restaurants are harmful because some cooks spit in their customer's food. Anything can be made out to be harmful with that kind of reasoning. But just as there is good food and bad food, so also is there good religion and bad religion. It's absurd to pain food or religion with such a broad brush.

Hardly, since food and religion are intrinsically different. Food is something essential to our existence. Religion is something we could easily life without and, in my opinion, would be better off without. Once again, you cannot separate a belief from its believers since the former's continued existence is wholly dependent on a continuous supply of the latter.

You are drawing an irrelevant disanalogy since the goodness of food does not consist solely in the fact that it's necessary for life. Going out to eat at a restaurant is good because it brings pleasure. Food is enjoyable. The fact that not all food is enjoyable does not detract in any way from food being enjoyable. Likewise, the fact that not all religious practice is good does not make religion as a whole bad.

You are conflating something that humans need to survive with something that needs humans to survive. Please make better analogy since this one is flawed and not truly representative.

The need to survive is irrelevant to my analogy, though. My analogy would hold even if food wasn't necessary to survive since food is good for other reasons than survival.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
dhardage
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6/5/2015 8:58:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 4:08:52 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
To be fair, a nice church building in a poor village is enjoyed by the entire local church, not just the pastor.

Enjoyed by the village during worship services. Living in dirty hovels for the rest of the time. Why not just improve the entire village instead of focusing on one building?
Vox_Veritas
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6/5/2015 12:26:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 8:58:53 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/4/2015 4:08:52 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
To be fair, a nice church building in a poor village is enjoyed by the entire local church, not just the pastor.

Enjoyed by the village during worship services. Living in dirty hovels for the rest of the time. Why not just improve the entire village instead of focusing on one building?

Missionaries often do the work you describe. However, the nice church building is giving God one's "first fruits", and the most members of the village are usually glad to have a nice church building.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
RoderickSpode
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6/5/2015 12:53:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:06:36 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/4/2015 11:33:22 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo?

The problem (IMO) is that our society is bound up in media characters whether they be the Kardashians, an athlete involved in substance abuse, and.....televangelists. If we judge humanity on who is getting the major headlines it's generally not going to be positive. I don't know people you know, you don't know people I know, but we both know who Obama is, so that's someone we can relate to in a discussion.

There are media ministers (TV and or radio ministries) out there that don't fit the mold of the televangelist with the private jet (I'm not making any judgment on that). However, to find these ministers you would have to search the airways and/or internet as opposed to having the news of them thrown at you from some other source that gives you news you may not be purposely looking for.

Some ministers, to avoid the appearance of lavish living will purposely live in modest accommodations, drive modest cars, etc. For instance, there's a missionary in China from a church I used to attend who lived in a modest apartment with his wife and kids in Hong Kong. The church decided that he should live in better accommodations, so the church decided to pay for a larger apartment. He didn't want to do that. He wanted to remain where he was. He finally gave in I think mostly to avoid denying the church the blessed feeling of helping him and his family out. This missionary is not a TV or radio minister, but he did get a little bit of national notoriety when he was arrested in China a number of years ago.

http://www.charismanews.com...

He is one of many examples.

I'm going to do something a bit unusual (for me). Since you view the actions of Creflo Dollar as an example of religion being harmful, I'm linking you to a website from a radio minister who doesn't even have a car (unless he just got one, and would probably have been a donation). His radio broadcasts I believe are from his, or the home of someone else. His public appearances consist of a meeting in someone's living room (usually, if not always in Southern California).

You can do one of a number of things here. You can check his website to see which radio stations broadcast his 2 radio talk shows, and if you find one locally you can tune in. Or, you can listen to his radio broadcast on line (one in the morning, one in the afternoon I believe). Or, you can go to his radio archive and listen (for free) to any radio show from any day you choose. You can also listen (for free) to some of his lectures on specific topics. You can also (for free) listen to his segmented lectures on the entire Bible.

If you do this, then you can maybe tell me whether or not you think this particular minister is an example of religion being harmful.

http://www.thenarrowpath.com...

Forgive me but there have been religious leaders living in luxury while their followers remain in abject poverty for centuries. If you walk into the poorest village in most highly religious countries you will find the nicest building is the church. I don't deny that there are many good people out there who are religious and theistic. The problem is that religion is so easily perverted and used as a tool for manipulation of good people. It can be so blinding that they don't see just how bad it is.

As far as the churches, I think you're giving the picture of the colonial church. The smaller nations colonized by a European nation who built lavish cathedrals in the European style. This however is not an accurate picture of areas that have been visited by small groups of missionaries (sometimes just a family). For instance, a missionary to Western New Guinea went with his small family, and the converts built a church in their tribal village that was a larger replica of what they lived in. That's actually a more typical scenario apart from the colonialism I think you're referring to.

As far as religion being easily perverted (about anything could be perverted), does that make religion itself dangerous? A good thing to consider is that the majority of Christians in the world, including leaders are of low income. The leaders (high-profile ministers) who are wealthy are in the extreme minority.
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6/5/2015 12:59:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo? : :

When the World Changers Church International fails, who do you think will claim the 65 million dollar jet?

Jesus was homeless so he didn't have a bed to sleep on.
4runner
Posts: 103
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6/5/2015 12:59:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo? : :

When the World Changers Church International fails, who do you think will claim the 65 million dollar jet?

Jesus was homeless so he didn't have a bed to sleep on.
4runner
Posts: 103
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6/5/2015 12:59:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo? : :

When the World Changers Church International fails, who do you think will claim the 65 million dollar jet?

Jesus was homeless so he didn't have a bed to sleep on.
4runner
Posts: 103
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6/5/2015 12:59:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 9:23:58 AM, dhardage wrote:
Certainly not this.

http://www.ajc.com...

This is one of the reasons many nonbelievers feel religion is harmful to society as a whole. People like Dollar use it to enrich themselves instead of serving others. Jesus didn't need a luxury private jet, why does this bozo? : :

When the World Changers Church International fails, who do you think will claim the 65 million dollar jet?

Jesus was homeless so he didn't have a bed to sleep on.