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Forum Debate -- The Existence of God

tejretics
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6/4/2015 12:34:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
OK, theists, deists, pantheists, panentheists, atheists, and all other philosophical positions!

Welcome to DDO's Religious Forum Debate!

All those in *favor* of God's existence - present *all* arguments for God's existence and rebut atheistic arguments.

All those against, present all arguments against God's existence and rebut theistic arguments.

My Position -- Agnostic Atheist/Secularist

So, theological believers, feel free to come at me with arguments, and I'll see how I can respond.

Rules

Entirely appropriate conduct MUST be maintained -- no insults, profanity, ad hominem, trolling, spamming, or ANYTHING considered misconducted by DDO forum norms. All arguments must be based on *friendly* discussion, failing to do which shall be reported to the moderators.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
Posts: 6,083
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6/4/2015 12:51:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:45:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Which god, Tejas?

GOD -- any intelligent cause of the universe
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
Posts: 6,083
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6/4/2015 12:51:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:50:15 PM, Envisage wrote:
Rule #1 - Define "God".

GOD -- any intelligent cause of the universe
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/4/2015 12:53:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:51:21 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:45:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Which god, Tejas?
GOD -- any intelligent cause of the universe

That's a creator, not necessarily a deity. Atheists can be agnostic about that, and many are.
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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6/4/2015 12:55:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
God is omnipotent and morally perfect.
P1: God is all powerful.
P2: God has the ability to stop all evil.
P3: There is evil.

Either God chooses not to eliminate evil, or he is unable.

If he is unable he is not omnipotent and not a god, or if he chooses not to he is not morally perfect and not a God.

God doesnt exist.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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6/4/2015 1:00:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:55:21 PM, Hayd wrote:
God is omnipotent and morally perfect.
P1: God is all powerful.
P2: God has the ability to stop all evil.
P3: There is evil.

Either God chooses not to eliminate evil, or he is unable.

If he is unable he is not omnipotent and not a god, or if he chooses not to he is not morally perfect and not a God.

God doesnt exist.

Or God chose life,

God could not chose life as we know it without the potential for people to chose evil. Otherwise he would have created robots.

Oh but wait, under atheism, we are only biological robots. with no meaning to life.
boltfox20
Posts: 25
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6/4/2015 1:20:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:00:10 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Or God chose life,

God could not chose life as we know it without the potential for people to chose evil. Otherwise he would have created robots.

Oh but wait, under atheism, we are only biological robots. with no meaning to life.

Atheism doesn't have any say in what our brain chemistry is. That is the realm of science. Atheism is, and always has been, a lack of belief in deities. No more, no less. Everything else is up to the individual.

For example, an Atheist can still believe in the human soul, they just don't see any deity in charge of those souls.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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6/4/2015 1:26:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:20:23 PM, boltfox20 wrote:
At 6/4/2015 1:00:10 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Or God chose life,

God could not chose life as we know it without the potential for people to chose evil. Otherwise he would have created robots.

Oh but wait, under atheism, we are only biological robots. with no meaning to life.

Atheism doesn't have any say in what our brain chemistry is. That is the realm of science. Atheism is, and always has been, a lack of belief in deities. No more, no less. Everything else is up to the individual.

For example, an Atheist can still believe in the human soul, they just don't see any deity in charge of those souls.

So an atheist can make the leap to an immaterial soul existing but can't make the leap that an immaterial super soul exist.

Weird.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/4/2015 1:36:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:29:10 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:50:15 PM, Envisage wrote:
Rule #1 - Define "God".



Infinite attributes

What attributes. That phrase is incoherent as it stands.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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6/4/2015 1:41:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:36:37 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/4/2015 1:29:10 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:50:15 PM, Envisage wrote:
Rule #1 - Define "God".



Infinite attributes

What attributes. That phrase is incoherent as it stands.

You want me to list an infinite amount of attributes. ?

You statement is ridiculous as it stands.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/4/2015 2:43:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:29:10 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:50:15 PM, Envisage wrote:
Rule #1 - Define "God".



Infinite attributes

Which would make him infinitely evil, infinitely cruel, and infinitely wrong.
Nac
Posts: 326
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6/4/2015 3:28:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:26:24 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/4/2015 1:20:23 PM, boltfox20 wrote:
At 6/4/2015 1:00:10 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Or God chose life,

God could not chose life as we know it without the potential for people to chose evil. Otherwise he would have created robots.

Oh but wait, under atheism, we are only biological robots. with no meaning to life.

Atheism doesn't have any say in what our brain chemistry is. That is the realm of science. Atheism is, and always has been, a lack of belief in deities. No more, no less. Everything else is up to the individual.

For example, an Atheist can still believe in the human soul, they just don't see any deity in charge of those souls.


So an atheist can make the leap to an immaterial soul existing but can't make the leap that an immaterial super soul exist.

Weird.

It does not appear to be inconsistent to believe in one and not the other. The characteristics of that soul (omniscience, omnipresence) are the source of objection for these people, I would guess.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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6/4/2015 3:29:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:34:38 PM, tejretics wrote:

All those in *favor* of God's existence - present *all* arguments for God's existence and rebut atheistic arguments.

All those against, present all arguments against God's existence and rebut theistic arguments.

That sounds like a recipe for an unruly discussion.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Nac
Posts: 326
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6/4/2015 3:31:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:00:10 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:21 PM, Hayd wrote:
God is omnipotent and morally perfect.
P1: God is all powerful.
P2: God has the ability to stop all evil.
P3: There is evil.

Either God chooses not to eliminate evil, or he is unable.

If he is unable he is not omnipotent and not a god, or if he chooses not to he is not morally perfect and not a God.

God doesnt exist.

Or God chose life,

God could not chose life as we know it without the potential for people to chose evil. Otherwise he would have created robots.
My natural follow up here is this: Why did God allow Satan to tempt us in the Bible? If we held a relationship with God, we were still created with free will. But for some reason, God wished to give us the opportunity to fail. Why?
Oh but wait, under atheism, we are only biological robots. with no meaning to life.
Atheism makes no such claim. It is simply a lack of belief in a god or god's. This does not lead us to metaphysical naturalism.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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6/4/2015 4:25:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:55:21 PM, Hayd wrote:
God is omnipotent and morally perfect.
P1: God is all powerful.
P2: God has the ability to stop all evil.
P3: There is evil.

Either God chooses not to eliminate evil, or he is unable.

If he is unable he is not omnipotent and not a god, or if he chooses not to he is not morally perfect and not a God.

God doesnt exist.

That's the first time I've ever seen that one.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Pase66
Posts: 775
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6/4/2015 4:35:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:34:38 PM, tejretics wrote:
OK, theists, deists, pantheists, panentheists, atheists, and all other philosophical positions!

Welcome to DDO's Religious Forum Debate!

All those in *favor* of God's existence - present *all* arguments for God's existence and rebut atheistic arguments.

All those against, present all arguments against God's existence and rebut theistic arguments.

My Position -- Agnostic Atheist/Secularist

So, theological believers, feel free to come at me with arguments, and I'll see how I can respond.

Rules

Entirely appropriate conduct MUST be maintained -- no insults, profanity, ad hominem, trolling, spamming, or ANYTHING considered misconducted by DDO forum norms. All arguments must be based on *friendly* discussion, failing to do which shall be reported to the moderators.

For fun, I'll play devil's advocate and argue for the support of God, and intelligent first cause for the universe.

1.) First cause
a. Why is there something rather than nothing? How is it possible that all we see and can observe today came into existence from nothing? How can energy be created from nothing, how can matter be created from nothing? There had to be a cause, and that cause would be a first cause, a cause that needs no cause.

2.) Intelligent
Now, the universe is structured in a certain way. It could be any other way, but it is a certain way. Now, the fact that there actually is something insinuates intelligence, for an unintelligent being that brought the universe into existence, couldn't, for it wouldn't be intelligent enough to know how. Thus, it must be that this first cause must have/ is also intelligent, for the fact that the universe exists.

I know this is a pretty weak argument, but thought that I might give it a try.
Check out these Current Debates
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Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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6/4/2015 6:58:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:00:10 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:21 PM, Hayd wrote:
God is omnipotent and morally perfect.
P1: God is all powerful.
P2: God has the ability to stop all evil.
P3: There is evil.

Either God chooses not to eliminate evil, or he is unable.

If he is unable he is not omnipotent and not a god, or if he chooses not to he is not morally perfect and not a God.

God doesnt exist.

Or God chose life,

God could not chose life as we know it without the potential for people to chose evil. Otherwise he would have created robots.

Oh but wait, under atheism, we are only biological robots. with no meaning to life.

First of all, robots are electric machines, we are not machines so that is a horrible analogy.

Secondly, if I saw a 4 year old getting raped, and I had the power to stop it, I would.

God doesn't stop it, therefore he doesn't exist.
(I'm so sick of the idiots in the religion forum.)
TheJuniorVarsityNovice
Posts: 223
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6/4/2015 8:21:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
1.) god created all things
2.) logic is a thing
3.) thus god created logic
4.) thus god is not bound by logic

OR

1.) God is restrained by nothing
2.) Logic restrains
3.) god is not restrained by logic

I dont know if this is for or against the existence of god. On the one hand, christians could argue that this makes sense and explains how god can be the uncaused cause of the universe...on the other hand, this would render god basically meaningless. he would exist and not exist..ect
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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6/4/2015 9:23:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 1:00:10 PM, johnlubba wrote:
Or God chose life,

God could not chose life as we know it without the potential for people to chose evil. Otherwise he would have created robots.

Is there evil in the afterlife?
Chaosism
Posts: 2,649
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6/4/2015 10:29:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 12:55:21 PM, Hayd wrote:
God is omnipotent and morally perfect.

"Morally perfect" is incoherent.

P1 : There is only one possible state of being for perfection.
C1 : If change occurs, either the former or latter state is imperfect.
P2 : Action necessitates change and choice of action is a reflection of morality.
P3 : God created the universe, which is a chosen action.
C2 : A morally perfect God does not exist.

(Did that come out right?)
tejretics
Posts: 6,083
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6/4/2015 11:37:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 10:29:36 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:21 PM, Hayd wrote:
God is omnipotent and morally perfect.

"Morally perfect" is incoherent.

P1 : There is only one possible state of being for perfection.
C1 : If change occurs, either the former or latter state is imperfect.
P2 : Action necessitates change and choice of action is a reflection of morality.
P3 : God created the universe, which is a chosen action.
C2 : A morally perfect God does not exist.

(Did that come out right?)

"Moral perfectness" assumes objective morality as well.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
Posts: 6,083
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6/4/2015 11:41:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 4:35:58 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:34:38 PM, tejretics wrote:
OK, theists, deists, pantheists, panentheists, atheists, and all other philosophical positions!

Welcome to DDO's Religious Forum Debate!

All those in *favor* of God's existence - present *all* arguments for God's existence and rebut atheistic arguments.

All those against, present all arguments against God's existence and rebut theistic arguments.

My Position -- Agnostic Atheist/Secularist

So, theological believers, feel free to come at me with arguments, and I'll see how I can respond.

Rules

Entirely appropriate conduct MUST be maintained -- no insults, profanity, ad hominem, trolling, spamming, or ANYTHING considered misconducted by DDO forum norms. All arguments must be based on *friendly* discussion, failing to do which shall be reported to the moderators.

For fun, I'll play devil's advocate and argue for the support of God, and intelligent first cause for the universe.

1.) First cause
a. Why is there something rather than nothing? How is it possible that all we see and can observe today came into existence from nothing? How can energy be created from nothing, how can matter be created from nothing? There had to be a cause, and that cause would be a first cause, a cause that needs no cause.

Observation 1: Commits fallacy of composition, viz. if parts of the universe can't come into existence ex nihilo, we have no reason to believe the whole universe can't.

Observation 2: For any form of causality to remain coherent, one requires time and physical laws; sans these essential features, we lack time directionality and physical constraint, and have no reason to believe things need causes, so the causal principle would break down outside the universe.


2.) Intelligent
Now, the universe is structured in a certain way. It could be any other way, but it is a certain way. Now, the fact that there actually is something insinuates intelligence, for an unintelligent being that brought the universe into existence, couldn't, for it wouldn't be intelligent enough to know how. Thus, it must be that this first cause must have/ is also intelligent, for the fact that the universe exists.

This is based on Paley's watchmaker analogy or the Thomistic teleological argument. The primary flaw is that this makes no distinction between telos that is prescribed and telos that is attributed; telos is entirely subjective, thus it's impossible to prescribe telos objectively. Design can be generated by anything, e.g. evolution via. natural selection.


I know this is a pretty weak argument, but thought that I might give it a try.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
Posts: 6,083
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6/4/2015 11:42:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 4:25:40 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:21 PM, Hayd wrote:
God is omnipotent and morally perfect.
P1: God is all powerful.
P2: God has the ability to stop all evil.
P3: There is evil.

Either God chooses not to eliminate evil, or he is unable.

If he is unable he is not omnipotent and not a god, or if he chooses not to he is not morally perfect and not a God.

God doesnt exist.

That's the first time I've ever seen that one.

Lol.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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6/5/2015 12:39:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/4/2015 11:42:43 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/4/2015 4:25:40 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:21 PM, Hayd wrote:
God is omnipotent and morally perfect.
P1: God is all powerful.
P2: God has the ability to stop all evil.
P3: There is evil.

Either God chooses not to eliminate evil, or he is unable.

If he is unable he is not omnipotent and not a god, or if he chooses not to he is not morally perfect and not a God.

God doesnt exist.

That's the first time I've ever seen that one.

Lol.

It is. Doesn't everyone know that if (1) evil exists, and (2) God is "omnipotent" and chooses not to stop it, then (3) there is no God? If someone would have "thunk" that one up years ago, there wouldn't be any theists around.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
tejretics
Posts: 6,083
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6/5/2015 1:02:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 12:39:11 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/4/2015 11:42:43 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/4/2015 4:25:40 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:21 PM, Hayd wrote:
God is omnipotent and morally perfect.
P1: God is all powerful.
P2: God has the ability to stop all evil.
P3: There is evil.

Either God chooses not to eliminate evil, or he is unable.

If he is unable he is not omnipotent and not a god, or if he chooses not to he is not morally perfect and not a God.

God doesnt exist.

That's the first time I've ever seen that one.

Lol.

It is. Doesn't everyone know that if (1) evil exists, and (2) God is "omnipotent" and chooses not to stop it, then (3) there is no God? If someone would have "thunk" that one up years ago, there wouldn't be any theists around.

It's just the PoE, very common.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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6/5/2015 1:05:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/5/2015 1:02:44 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/5/2015 12:39:11 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/4/2015 11:42:43 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/4/2015 4:25:40 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/4/2015 12:55:21 PM, Hayd wrote:
God is omnipotent and morally perfect.
P1: God is all powerful.
P2: God has the ability to stop all evil.
P3: There is evil.

Either God chooses not to eliminate evil, or he is unable.

If he is unable he is not omnipotent and not a god, or if he chooses not to he is not morally perfect and not a God.

God doesnt exist.

That's the first time I've ever seen that one.

Lol.

It is. Doesn't everyone know that if (1) evil exists, and (2) God is "omnipotent" and chooses not to stop it, then (3) there is no God? If someone would have "thunk" that one up years ago, there wouldn't be any theists around.

It's just the PoE, very common.

The PoE. That's a new one on me.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."