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Why do people "love" Jehovah?

janesix
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6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/8/2015 2:51:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

We love him because we have taken the trouble to know him, and understand why he does everything he does and that, in the long run, it is for the good of those who choose to accept his guidance and protection.

If you knew what scripture tells us about it all you would know that in fact he has never committed genocide, those he has had put to death, whether individually or ion groups, have had to be removed for the sake of his people.

However, before any are put to death they are given the chance to escape what is in effect judicial punishment, and those who accepted ti, from the Egyptians who left Egypt with Israel, through individuals like Rahab the Jericho Prostitute, to the Ninehvites of the Gibeonites.

As for slavery, it was, under the Mosaic Law, very different to what we know as slavery know it now.

It was, in fact, the Israelites equivalent of the Welfare State, since they could sell themselves into slavery rather than starve to death.

Of course, those who only want to see evil in what Jehovah has done will happily ignore all the evidence to the contrary and accuse him of things he wouldn't even dream of doing.

But them even some who pretend to support his son claim that he is the sort of sadist who punishes people eternally in a hell of torment, even though simply by dying they have already paid the "debt".

If you really want to know the truth, then ask Jehovah's Witnesses, because above all else they want to clear Jehovah's name of all these vicious slanders.

Like the Apostle Paul, they echo his words "

Romans 3:4-6
YLT(i) 4 let it not be! and let God become true, and every man false, according as it hath been written, `That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.' 5 And, if our unrighteousness God's righteousness doth establish, what shall we say? is God unrighteous who is inflicting the wrath? (after the manner of a man I speak) 6 let it not be! since how shall God judge the world?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/8/2015 2:52:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:37:04 PM, dhardage wrote:
That is an excellent question. I will be interested to see the answers that are forthcoming.

It is a vital question which serves to highlight the abysmal lack of understanding of biblical truths.
janesix
Posts: 3,467
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6/8/2015 2:59:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:51:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

We love him because we have taken the trouble to know him, and understand why he does everything he does and that, in the long run, it is for the good of those who choose to accept his guidance and protection.

If you knew what scripture tells us about it all you would know that in fact he has never committed genocide, those he has had put to death, whether individually or ion groups, have had to be removed for the sake of his people.

However, before any are put to death they are given the chance to escape what is in effect judicial punishment, and those who accepted ti, from the Egyptians who left Egypt with Israel, through individuals like Rahab the Jericho Prostitute, to the Ninehvites of the Gibeonites.

As for slavery, it was, under the Mosaic Law, very different to what we know as slavery know it now.

It was, in fact, the Israelites equivalent of the Welfare State, since they could sell themselves into slavery rather than starve to death.

Of course, those who only want to see evil in what Jehovah has done will happily ignore all the evidence to the contrary and accuse him of things he wouldn't even dream of doing.

But them even some who pretend to support his son claim that he is the sort of sadist who punishes people eternally in a hell of torment, even though simply by dying they have already paid the "debt".

If you really want to know the truth, then ask Jehovah's Witnesses, because above all else they want to clear Jehovah's name of all these vicious slanders.

Like the Apostle Paul, they echo his words "

Romans 3:4-6
YLT(i) 4 let it not be! and let God become true, and every man false, according as it hath been written, `That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.' 5 And, if our unrighteousness God's righteousness doth establish, what shall we say? is God unrighteous who is inflicting the wrath? (after the manner of a man I speak) 6 let it not be! since how shall God judge the world?

You wouldn't have to "clear his name" if all of those atrocities weren't in the book.
janesix
Posts: 3,467
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6/8/2015 3:00:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:52:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:37:04 PM, dhardage wrote:
That is an excellent question. I will be interested to see the answers that are forthcoming.

It is a vital question which serves to highlight the abysmal lack of understanding of biblical truths.

Which of the hundreds of "Biblical truths" is that?

What's your version?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/8/2015 3:02:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:59:02 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:51:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

We love him because we have taken the trouble to know him, and understand why he does everything he does and that, in the long run, it is for the good of those who choose to accept his guidance and protection.

If you knew what scripture tells us about it all you would know that in fact he has never committed genocide, those he has had put to death, whether individually or ion groups, have had to be removed for the sake of his people.

However, before any are put to death they are given the chance to escape what is in effect judicial punishment, and those who accepted ti, from the Egyptians who left Egypt with Israel, through individuals like Rahab the Jericho Prostitute, to the Ninehvites of the Gibeonites.

As for slavery, it was, under the Mosaic Law, very different to what we know as slavery know it now.

It was, in fact, the Israelites equivalent of the Welfare State, since they could sell themselves into slavery rather than starve to death.

Of course, those who only want to see evil in what Jehovah has done will happily ignore all the evidence to the contrary and accuse him of things he wouldn't even dream of doing.

But them even some who pretend to support his son claim that he is the sort of sadist who punishes people eternally in a hell of torment, even though simply by dying they have already paid the "debt".

If you really want to know the truth, then ask Jehovah's Witnesses, because above all else they want to clear Jehovah's name of all these vicious slanders.

Like the Apostle Paul, they echo his words "

Romans 3:4-6
YLT(i) 4 let it not be! and let God become true, and every man false, according as it hath been written, `That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.' 5 And, if our unrighteousness God's righteousness doth establish, what shall we say? is God unrighteous who is inflicting the wrath? (after the manner of a man I speak) 6 let it not be! since how shall God judge the world?

You wouldn't have to "clear his name" if all of those atrocities weren't in the book.

The only reason we have to clear his name is because whilst the truth behind it all is on the truth, the vast majority choose to ignore and twist.

There is nothing in scripture, once you understand it, which puts Jehovah in a bad light at all.

Not one thing.

The use of scripture clears Jehovah's name.

The abuse of scripture dirties it.
janesix
Posts: 3,467
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6/8/2015 3:13:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 3:02:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:59:02 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:51:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

We love him because we have taken the trouble to know him, and understand why he does everything he does and that, in the long run, it is for the good of those who choose to accept his guidance and protection.

If you knew what scripture tells us about it all you would know that in fact he has never committed genocide, those he has had put to death, whether individually or ion groups, have had to be removed for the sake of his people.

However, before any are put to death they are given the chance to escape what is in effect judicial punishment, and those who accepted ti, from the Egyptians who left Egypt with Israel, through individuals like Rahab the Jericho Prostitute, to the Ninehvites of the Gibeonites.

As for slavery, it was, under the Mosaic Law, very different to what we know as slavery know it now.

It was, in fact, the Israelites equivalent of the Welfare State, since they could sell themselves into slavery rather than starve to death.

Of course, those who only want to see evil in what Jehovah has done will happily ignore all the evidence to the contrary and accuse him of things he wouldn't even dream of doing.

But them even some who pretend to support his son claim that he is the sort of sadist who punishes people eternally in a hell of torment, even though simply by dying they have already paid the "debt".

If you really want to know the truth, then ask Jehovah's Witnesses, because above all else they want to clear Jehovah's name of all these vicious slanders.

Like the Apostle Paul, they echo his words "

Romans 3:4-6
YLT(i) 4 let it not be! and let God become true, and every man false, according as it hath been written, `That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.' 5 And, if our unrighteousness God's righteousness doth establish, what shall we say? is God unrighteous who is inflicting the wrath? (after the manner of a man I speak) 6 let it not be! since how shall God judge the world?

You wouldn't have to "clear his name" if all of those atrocities weren't in the book.

The only reason we have to clear his name is because whilst the truth behind it all is on the truth, the vast majority choose to ignore and twist.

There is nothing in scripture, once you understand it, which puts Jehovah in a bad light at all.

Not one thing.

The use of scripture clears Jehovah's name.

The abuse of scripture dirties it.

I am capable of reading a book. I have many times. It is clear what is says. You guys like to defend a monster,and even LOVE that monster. Very disturbing.. I have to suspect someones' morals who is willing to adore such a beast.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,280
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6/8/2015 3:38:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 3:13:29 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/8/2015 3:02:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:59:02 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:51:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

We love him because we have taken the trouble to know him, and understand why he does everything he does and that, in the long run, it is for the good of those who choose to accept his guidance and protection.

If you knew what scripture tells us about it all you would know that in fact he has never committed genocide, those he has had put to death, whether individually or ion groups, have had to be removed for the sake of his people.

However, before any are put to death they are given the chance to escape what is in effect judicial punishment, and those who accepted ti, from the Egyptians who left Egypt with Israel, through individuals like Rahab the Jericho Prostitute, to the Ninehvites of the Gibeonites.

As for slavery, it was, under the Mosaic Law, very different to what we know as slavery know it now.

It was, in fact, the Israelites equivalent of the Welfare State, since they could sell themselves into slavery rather than starve to death.

Of course, those who only want to see evil in what Jehovah has done will happily ignore all the evidence to the contrary and accuse him of things he wouldn't even dream of doing.

But them even some who pretend to support his son claim that he is the sort of sadist who punishes people eternally in a hell of torment, even though simply by dying they have already paid the "debt".

If you really want to know the truth, then ask Jehovah's Witnesses, because above all else they want to clear Jehovah's name of all these vicious slanders.

Like the Apostle Paul, they echo his words "

Romans 3:4-6
YLT(i) 4 let it not be! and let God become true, and every man false, according as it hath been written, `That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.' 5 And, if our unrighteousness God's righteousness doth establish, what shall we say? is God unrighteous who is inflicting the wrath? (after the manner of a man I speak) 6 let it not be! since how shall God judge the world?

You wouldn't have to "clear his name" if all of those atrocities weren't in the book.

The only reason we have to clear his name is because whilst the truth behind it all is on the truth, the vast majority choose to ignore and twist.

There is nothing in scripture, once you understand it, which puts Jehovah in a bad light at all.

Not one thing.

The use of scripture clears Jehovah's name.

The abuse of scripture dirties it.

I am capable of reading a book. I have many times. It is clear what is says. You guys like to defend a monster,and even LOVE that monster. Very disturbing.. I have to suspect someones' morals who is willing to adore such a beast.

Why bother making a thread if you aren't going to actually debate, but instead berate? Why should anybody bother answering you?
janesix
Posts: 3,467
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6/8/2015 3:43:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 3:38:34 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/8/2015 3:13:29 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/8/2015 3:02:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:59:02 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:51:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

We love him because we have taken the trouble to know him, and understand why he does everything he does and that, in the long run, it is for the good of those who choose to accept his guidance and protection.

If you knew what scripture tells us about it all you would know that in fact he has never committed genocide, those he has had put to death, whether individually or ion groups, have had to be removed for the sake of his people.

However, before any are put to death they are given the chance to escape what is in effect judicial punishment, and those who accepted ti, from the Egyptians who left Egypt with Israel, through individuals like Rahab the Jericho Prostitute, to the Ninehvites of the Gibeonites.

As for slavery, it was, under the Mosaic Law, very different to what we know as slavery know it now.

It was, in fact, the Israelites equivalent of the Welfare State, since they could sell themselves into slavery rather than starve to death.

Of course, those who only want to see evil in what Jehovah has done will happily ignore all the evidence to the contrary and accuse him of things he wouldn't even dream of doing.

But them even some who pretend to support his son claim that he is the sort of sadist who punishes people eternally in a hell of torment, even though simply by dying they have already paid the "debt".

If you really want to know the truth, then ask Jehovah's Witnesses, because above all else they want to clear Jehovah's name of all these vicious slanders.

Like the Apostle Paul, they echo his words "

Romans 3:4-6
YLT(i) 4 let it not be! and let God become true, and every man false, according as it hath been written, `That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.' 5 And, if our unrighteousness God's righteousness doth establish, what shall we say? is God unrighteous who is inflicting the wrath? (after the manner of a man I speak) 6 let it not be! since how shall God judge the world?

You wouldn't have to "clear his name" if all of those atrocities weren't in the book.

The only reason we have to clear his name is because whilst the truth behind it all is on the truth, the vast majority choose to ignore and twist.

There is nothing in scripture, once you understand it, which puts Jehovah in a bad light at all.

Not one thing.

The use of scripture clears Jehovah's name.

The abuse of scripture dirties it.

I am capable of reading a book. I have many times. It is clear what is says. You guys like to defend a monster,and even LOVE that monster. Very disturbing.. I have to suspect someones' morals who is willing to adore such a beast.

Why bother making a thread if you aren't going to actually debate, but instead berate? Why should anybody bother answering you?

Still waiting for a good answer. I suspect it isn't forthcoming.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,280
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6/8/2015 3:50:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 3:43:27 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/8/2015 3:38:34 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/8/2015 3:13:29 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/8/2015 3:02:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:59:02 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:51:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

We love him because we have taken the trouble to know him, and understand why he does everything he does and that, in the long run, it is for the good of those who choose to accept his guidance and protection.

If you knew what scripture tells us about it all you would know that in fact he has never committed genocide, those he has had put to death, whether individually or ion groups, have had to be removed for the sake of his people.

However, before any are put to death they are given the chance to escape what is in effect judicial punishment, and those who accepted ti, from the Egyptians who left Egypt with Israel, through individuals like Rahab the Jericho Prostitute, to the Ninehvites of the Gibeonites.

As for slavery, it was, under the Mosaic Law, very different to what we know as slavery know it now.

It was, in fact, the Israelites equivalent of the Welfare State, since they could sell themselves into slavery rather than starve to death.

Of course, those who only want to see evil in what Jehovah has done will happily ignore all the evidence to the contrary and accuse him of things he wouldn't even dream of doing.

But them even some who pretend to support his son claim that he is the sort of sadist who punishes people eternally in a hell of torment, even though simply by dying they have already paid the "debt".

If you really want to know the truth, then ask Jehovah's Witnesses, because above all else they want to clear Jehovah's name of all these vicious slanders.

Like the Apostle Paul, they echo his words "

Romans 3:4-6
YLT(i) 4 let it not be! and let God become true, and every man false, according as it hath been written, `That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.' 5 And, if our unrighteousness God's righteousness doth establish, what shall we say? is God unrighteous who is inflicting the wrath? (after the manner of a man I speak) 6 let it not be! since how shall God judge the world?

You wouldn't have to "clear his name" if all of those atrocities weren't in the book.

The only reason we have to clear his name is because whilst the truth behind it all is on the truth, the vast majority choose to ignore and twist.

There is nothing in scripture, once you understand it, which puts Jehovah in a bad light at all.

Not one thing.

The use of scripture clears Jehovah's name.

The abuse of scripture dirties it.

I am capable of reading a book. I have many times. It is clear what is says. You guys like to defend a monster,and even LOVE that monster. Very disturbing.. I have to suspect someones' morals who is willing to adore such a beast.

Why bother making a thread if you aren't going to actually debate, but instead berate? Why should anybody bother answering you?

Still waiting for a good answer. I suspect it isn't forthcoming.

You didn't actually address MCB's original response.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/8/2015 4:27:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:51:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

We love him because we have taken the trouble to know him, and understand why he does everything he does and that, in the long run, it is for the good of those who choose to accept his guidance and protection.

Which is why most of the really religious people in the world are also the poorest and most destitute.

If you knew what scripture tells us about it all you would know that in fact he has never committed genocide, those he has had put to death, whether individually or ion groups, have had to be removed for the sake of his people.

Absolute lie. He supposedly killed the entire world except for his favorite drunk and his kids and their wives. That's genocide by definition no matter how you choose to describe and rationalize it.

However, before any are put to death they are given the chance to escape what is in effect judicial punishment, and those who accepted ti, from the Egyptians who left Egypt with Israel, through individuals like Rahab the Jericho Prostitute, to the Ninehvites of the Gibeonites.

Again, a lie. There's no evidence that there was any warning for most of the people killed by the flood. Not to mention every time that Pharaoh was about to let the Jews go, this 'good' god hardened his heart, made him deny them their freedom so he could torment the Egyptian people with even more inventive means of torture.

As for slavery, it was, under the Mosaic Law, very different to what we know as slavery know it now.

It was, in fact, the Israelites equivalent of the Welfare State, since they could sell themselves into slavery rather than starve to death.

Unless you weren't a Jew, then it was ok to own you for life and beat you nearly to death as long as it took you at least at day or two to die.

Of course, those who only want to see evil in what Jehovah has done will happily ignore all the evidence to the contrary and accuse him of things he wouldn't even dream of doing.

He didn't dream, according to your book. He committed and ordered these acts that would be deemed genocide and war crimes in any modern court.

But them even some who pretend to support his son claim that he is the sort of sadist who punishes people eternally in a hell of torment, even though simply by dying they have already paid the "debt".

Not according to your book. Actually read all of it, not just the verses you like.

If you really want to know the truth, then ask Jehovah's Witnesses, because above all else they want to clear Jehovah's name of all these vicious slanders.

Hard to call it slander when it's written in the deity's own holy book by his 'inspired' authors.

Like the Apostle Paul, they echo his words "

Romans 3:4-6
YLT(i) 4 let it not be! and let God become true, and every man false, according as it hath been written, `That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.' 5 And, if our unrighteousness God's righteousness doth establish, what shall we say? is God unrighteous who is inflicting the wrath? (after the manner of a man I speak) 6 let it not be! since how shall God judge the world?

Gee, a holy book supporting its own deity. Imagine that.

I think anyone who reads the Bible without the predisposition to believe that Jehova is good would find him to be a horrible, capricious, evil deity.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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6/8/2015 8:24:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

I love God because He has created the entire Universe for mankind (that's us).

He then created a planet that was capable of supporting life and He put us there with everything we need.

Then, God finally created man, and He loves man, so He gave man the Knowledge of Good and Evil so that we can be like Him, in His Image.

He has Determined that we should all go through trials and sufferings, so that we might learn the utter Evil of these things.

Man has done just about every Evil possible, and that is why Yeshua came. He was a Man, just like us, but He overcame Sin and Evil.

However, we killed this Man for the same reason Cain killed Abel.

God our Father raised Him from the dead, as a Covenant with us that He will raise us all.

In the End, God will teach all men Righteousness, and all men will share in the Glory our Father has prepared for us.

But the main reason is:

"We love him, because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19

And once you feel this Love, there's no going back.

God is the Potter and He has formed Perfection. We are the pottery. God is the Composer and He has created a masterpiece. We are His instrument. God is the Artist and He has made all things. We are His canvas. He loves all of mankind and He WILL deliver us from this meaningless world.

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:20

All things will return to the One who made it, and He is doing this for our Glory.

"When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet" Psalm 8:3

We love God because God is Love, so without Him there could be no love. He has chosen a few to believe, and we tell the world what God has done for us through the foolishness of preaching.

"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Corinthians 1:20

If you believe this, you can join us in "eternal life":

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

There is NOTHING greater than this. The Greek here is Aionios Zoe, or Unto the Life Age. That's right now, and it is Wonderful.

The One True God is the only one who makes sense. The rest of the gods want to send people to a pagan eternal hell of torture or annihilate them. Our God is both willing and able to gather all people into one, that we will all share in His beautiful promises. God bless you friend.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/9/2015 7:48:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 4:27:38 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:51:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

We love him because we have taken the trouble to know him, and understand why he does everything he does and that, in the long run, it is for the good of those who choose to accept his guidance and protection.

Which is why most of the really religious people in the world are also the poorest and most destitute.

If you knew what scripture tells us about it all you would know that in fact he has never committed genocide, those he has had put to death, whether individually or ion groups, have had to be removed for the sake of his people.

Absolute lie. He supposedly killed the entire world except for his favorite drunk and his kids and their wives. That's genocide by definition no matter how you choose to describe and rationalize it.

However, before any are put to death they are given the chance to escape what is in effect judicial punishment, and those who accepted ti, from the Egyptians who left Egypt with Israel, through individuals like Rahab the Jericho Prostitute, to the Ninehvites of the Gibeonites.

Again, a lie. There's no evidence that there was any warning for most of the people killed by the flood. Not to mention every time that Pharaoh was about to let the Jews go, this 'good' god hardened his heart, made him deny them their freedom so he could torment the Egyptian people with even more inventive means of torture.

As for slavery, it was, under the Mosaic Law, very different to what we know as slavery know it now.

It was, in fact, the Israelites equivalent of the Welfare State, since they could sell themselves into slavery rather than starve to death.

Unless you weren't a Jew, then it was ok to own you for life and beat you nearly to death as long as it took you at least at day or two to die.

Of course, those who only want to see evil in what Jehovah has done will happily ignore all the evidence to the contrary and accuse him of things he wouldn't even dream of doing.

He didn't dream, according to your book. He committed and ordered these acts that would be deemed genocide and war crimes in any modern court.

But them even some who pretend to support his son claim that he is the sort of sadist who punishes people eternally in a hell of torment, even though simply by dying they have already paid the "debt".

Not according to your book. Actually read all of it, not just the verses you like.

If you really want to know the truth, then ask Jehovah's Witnesses, because above all else they want to clear Jehovah's name of all these vicious slanders.

Hard to call it slander when it's written in the deity's own holy book by his 'inspired' authors.

Like the Apostle Paul, they echo his words "

Romans 3:4-6
YLT(i) 4 let it not be! and let God become true, and every man false, according as it hath been written, `That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.' 5 And, if our unrighteousness God's righteousness doth establish, what shall we say? is God unrighteous who is inflicting the wrath? (after the manner of a man I speak) 6 let it not be! since how shall God judge the world?

Gee, a holy book supporting its own deity. Imagine that.

I think anyone who reads the Bible without the predisposition to believe that Jehova is good would find him to be a horrible, capricious, evil deity.

We all know you want to believe that, and that is why you don't dare dig deep enough to find the actual truth, which is that Jehovah really is the God of Love.

If you really did look at scripture without predisposition, you would keep going until you found the truth rather than stop at what you want to believe.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/9/2015 7:57:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 3:13:29 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/8/2015 3:02:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:59:02 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:51:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

We love him because we have taken the trouble to know him, and understand why he does everything he does and that, in the long run, it is for the good of those who choose to accept his guidance and protection.

If you knew what scripture tells us about it all you would know that in fact he has never committed genocide, those he has had put to death, whether individually or ion groups, have had to be removed for the sake of his people.

However, before any are put to death they are given the chance to escape what is in effect judicial punishment, and those who accepted ti, from the Egyptians who left Egypt with Israel, through individuals like Rahab the Jericho Prostitute, to the Ninehvites of the Gibeonites.

As for slavery, it was, under the Mosaic Law, very different to what we know as slavery know it now.

It was, in fact, the Israelites equivalent of the Welfare State, since they could sell themselves into slavery rather than starve to death.

Of course, those who only want to see evil in what Jehovah has done will happily ignore all the evidence to the contrary and accuse him of things he wouldn't even dream of doing.

But them even some who pretend to support his son claim that he is the sort of sadist who punishes people eternally in a hell of torment, even though simply by dying they have already paid the "debt".

If you really want to know the truth, then ask Jehovah's Witnesses, because above all else they want to clear Jehovah's name of all these vicious slanders.

Like the Apostle Paul, they echo his words "

Romans 3:4-6
YLT(i) 4 let it not be! and let God become true, and every man false, according as it hath been written, `That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.' 5 And, if our unrighteousness God's righteousness doth establish, what shall we say? is God unrighteous who is inflicting the wrath? (after the manner of a man I speak) 6 let it not be! since how shall God judge the world?

You wouldn't have to "clear his name" if all of those atrocities weren't in the book.

The only reason we have to clear his name is because whilst the truth behind it all is on the truth, the vast majority choose to ignore and twist.

There is nothing in scripture, once you understand it, which puts Jehovah in a bad light at all.

Not one thing.

The use of scripture clears Jehovah's name.

The abuse of scripture dirties it.

I am capable of reading a book. I have many times. It is clear what is says. You guys like to defend a monster,and even LOVE that monster. Very disturbing.. I have to suspect someones' morals who is willing to adore such a beast.

Yes it is clear what it says, when you bother to dig deep enough to find out what is behind the events it is describing, which you evidently have not bothered to do.

What would be the point of a God who didn't protect his people, and if you truly understood what was being said you would know that is all Jehovah was doing.

Any who didn't threaten his people in any way were simply ignored.

It would also help if you understood, not only the book, but the conditions in which people lived at that time, which you also a long way from doing.

Women and children with no males to support them simply died of either thirst or starvation, both very painful deaths.. Why leave them to such a state when to euthanase them was the better answer, especially considering the resurrection in the future.

You may be capable of reading the bible, but at present you are only just about on a surface level, if that.

No, we don't want to defend a monster.

We want to remove unjust criticisms from the name of a very loving God. In doing so we are fighting the real monster, Satan.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/9/2015 8:22:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:24:10 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

I love God because He has created the entire Universe for mankind (that's us).

He then created a planet that was capable of supporting life and He put us there with everything we need.

Then, God finally created man, and He loves man, so He gave man the Knowledge of Good and Evil so that we can be like Him, in His Image.

He has Determined that we should all go through trials and sufferings, so that we might learn the utter Evil of these things.

Man has done just about every Evil possible, and that is why Yeshua came. He was a Man, just like us, but He overcame Sin and Evil.

However, we killed this Man for the same reason Cain killed Abel.

God our Father raised Him from the dead, as a Covenant with us that He will raise us all.

In the End, God will teach all men Righteousness, and all men will share in the Glory our Father has prepared for us.

But the main reason is:

"We love him, because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19

And once you feel this Love, there's no going back.

God is the Potter and He has formed Perfection. We are the pottery. God is the Composer and He has created a masterpiece. We are His instrument. God is the Artist and He has made all things. We are His canvas. He loves all of mankind and He WILL deliver us from this meaningless world.

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:20

All things will return to the One who made it, and He is doing this for our Glory.

"When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet" Psalm 8:3

We love God because God is Love, so without Him there could be no love. He has chosen a few to believe, and we tell the world what God has done for us through the foolishness of preaching.

"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Corinthians 1:20

If you believe this, you can join us in "eternal life":

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

There is NOTHING greater than this. The Greek here is Aionios Zoe, or Unto the Life Age. That's right now, and it is Wonderful.

The One True God is the only one who makes sense. The rest of the gods want to send people to a pagan eternal hell of torture or annihilate them. Our God is both willing and able to gather all people into one, that we will all share in His beautiful promises. God bless you friend.

Poetic, even beautiful words. Pity is they have no basis in fact and the book in which they were written has been demonstrated to be false in any number of ways. Belief in this deity, love for this mythical being is irrational. Save your blessings and go do something useful.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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6/9/2015 9:29:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

Of course, you are quite correct, it makes no sense at all. And, as you can see, the responses you've received in defense of Jehovah are as absurd as they are insane, which would show the state of mind of Jehovians.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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6/9/2015 1:36:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

I love God, because He has loved me. I also love him because he is righteous and good. His understanding is much greater than atheists have and it has helped me much.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/9/2015 2:07:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

People who love that god see that some of those seemingly cruel acts he committed all had a divine purpose. One which we cannot fathom. One that, as in the instance of a stern father disciplining his children, is for their own good even though it does not seem like that to them at the time.

But once they become imbued with his Grace, they sometimes see the Light.

They also know that this god has a loving side as well. Again. like a stern but compassionate father. They think to read the bible as pure history or to only look for errors and difficult passages to comprehend is to miss the bigger picture. That god loves them and so he gave them free will, which they sometimes abuse.

How's that?
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/9/2015 2:28:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 2:07:32 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

People who love that god see that some of those seemingly cruel acts he committed all had a divine purpose. One which we cannot fathom. One that, as in the instance of a stern father disciplining his children, is for their own good even though it does not seem like that to them at the time.

But once they become imbued with his Grace, they sometimes see the Light.

They also know that this god has a loving side as well. Again. like a stern but compassionate father. They think to read the bible as pure history or to only look for errors and difficult passages to comprehend is to miss the bigger picture. That god loves them and so he gave them free will, which they sometimes abuse.

How's that?

It's wishful thinking. Killing all of your children except your favorite is not the act of a loving father. Allowing your favorite children to kill another group of your children and letting them steal all that belonged to the murdered group is not 'stern but compassionate'. It's barbaric. One must put on the rosiest of rose colored glasses to see anything good in those acts.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/9/2015 2:37:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You should also know that only a handful of Christians today believe to a literal interpretation of the bible. Most of them, especially the progressive or "liberal" Christians realize that the bible was originally not one single cohesive book meant to be read as a literal history book, but is rather a compendium of myth and allegory written by dozens of authors over the span of a dozen decades or more.

Therefore most of those stories--especially in the OT--should be read as allegorical. Some are meant as metaphorical cautionary tales. And yes, some are purely conceived and fabricated so as to support the author's specific agenda.

The bible is a work of man. An attempt by a largely-illiterate Bronze Age peoples to convey their God experiences. To read it as history is to miss out on the beauty of the Big Picture. Do not blame God for the shortcomings of his children. To do so is to cut off your nose to spite your face and to miss out on the important chance of attaining his Grace.

Which is priceless.

Next?
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/9/2015 2:51:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 2:37:28 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
You should also know that only a handful of Christians today believe to a literal interpretation of the bible. Most of them, especially the progressive or "liberal" Christians realize that the bible was originally not one single cohesive book meant to be read as a literal history book, but is rather a compendium of myth and allegory written by dozens of authors over the span of a dozen decades or more.

Therefore most of those stories--especially in the OT--should be read as allegorical. Some are meant as metaphorical cautionary tales. And yes, some are purely conceived and fabricated so as to support the author's specific agenda.

The bible is a work of man. An attempt by a largely-illiterate Bronze Age peoples to convey their God experiences. To read it as history is to miss out on the beauty of the Big Picture. Do not blame God for the shortcomings of his children. To do so is to cut off your nose to spite your face and to miss out on the important chance of attaining his Grace.

Which is priceless.

Next?

Then your entire faith is based on the words of other human beings, many who did believe in the literal translation of your holy book. If you cannot take it the way it was written, how can you believe it was inspired by a supernatural deity that is infallible? How can you know what part is supposed to be taken literally and which is allegory? What is supposed to be true and what is made up? You don't have the original documents, you did not live in the time of the writing so you have no reference for the way these authors thought. Seems irrational to take anything from this mishmash of other books as fact, particularly the existence of an invisible, undetectable supernatural deity that supposedly created the universe and watches your every move like a stalker.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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6/9/2015 2:57:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 8:22:49 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:24:10 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

I love God because He has created the entire Universe for mankind (that's us).

He then created a planet that was capable of supporting life and He put us there with everything we need.

Then, God finally created man, and He loves man, so He gave man the Knowledge of Good and Evil so that we can be like Him, in His Image.

He has Determined that we should all go through trials and sufferings, so that we might learn the utter Evil of these things.

Man has done just about every Evil possible, and that is why Yeshua came. He was a Man, just like us, but He overcame Sin and Evil.

However, we killed this Man for the same reason Cain killed Abel.

God our Father raised Him from the dead, as a Covenant with us that He will raise us all.

In the End, God will teach all men Righteousness, and all men will share in the Glory our Father has prepared for us.

But the main reason is:

"We love him, because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19

And once you feel this Love, there's no going back.

God is the Potter and He has formed Perfection. We are the pottery. God is the Composer and He has created a masterpiece. We are His instrument. God is the Artist and He has made all things. We are His canvas. He loves all of mankind and He WILL deliver us from this meaningless world.

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:20

All things will return to the One who made it, and He is doing this for our Glory.

"When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet" Psalm 8:3

We love God because God is Love, so without Him there could be no love. He has chosen a few to believe, and we tell the world what God has done for us through the foolishness of preaching.

"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Corinthians 1:20

If you believe this, you can join us in "eternal life":

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

There is NOTHING greater than this. The Greek here is Aionios Zoe, or Unto the Life Age. That's right now, and it is Wonderful.

The One True God is the only one who makes sense. The rest of the gods want to send people to a pagan eternal hell of torture or annihilate them. Our God is both willing and able to gather all people into one, that we will all share in His beautiful promises. God bless you friend.

Poetic, even beautiful words. Pity is they have no basis in fact and the book in which they were written has been demonstrated to be false in any number of ways. Belief in this deity, love for this mythical being is irrational. Save your blessings and go do something useful.

Hey dhardage! I've missed you my friend. Yes, the Gospel is poetic and beautiful. It's also very simple:

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3

No need for all that Scientific mumbo jumbo, just the Gospel. Because this world is passing away and we are all passing with it. Whether we die when we're born, when we're 25, or when we're 100, what does it matter? Whether we die by sword, disease, weather, or burning at the stake, what does it matter? Everything is meaningless, and we can't do anything about it. But our Father has done something about it, and He has made good on His promise. So we rejoice, while the world mourns. We rest, while the world worries. Because we know that in the end, God has Determined the most beautiful purpose for us. Then, nobody will be able to resist His Love. Thank you friend.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/9/2015 3:03:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 2:51:56 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/9/2015 2:37:28 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
You should also know that only a handful of Christians today believe to a literal interpretation of the bible. Most of them, especially the progressive or "liberal" Christians realize that the bible was originally not one single cohesive book meant to be read as a literal history book, but is rather a compendium of myth and allegory written by dozens of authors over the span of a dozen decades or more.

Therefore most of those stories--especially in the OT--should be read as allegorical. Some are meant as metaphorical cautionary tales. And yes, some are purely conceived and fabricated so as to support the author's specific agenda.

The bible is a work of man. An attempt by a largely-illiterate Bronze Age peoples to convey their God experiences. To read it as history is to miss out on the beauty of the Big Picture. Do not blame God for the shortcomings of his children. To do so is to cut off your nose to spite your face and to miss out on the important chance of attaining his Grace.

Which is priceless.

Next?

Then your entire faith is based on the words of other human beings, many who did believe in the literal translation of your holy book. If you cannot take it the way it was written, how can you believe it was inspired by a supernatural deity that is infallible? How can you know what part is supposed to be taken literally and which is allegory? What is supposed to be true and what is made up? You don't have the original documents, you did not live in the time of the writing so you have no reference for the way these authors thought. Seems irrational to take anything from this mishmash of other books as fact, particularly the existence of an invisible, undetectable supernatural deity that supposedly created the universe and watches your every move like a stalker.

Since, as you say, the bible IS a work of fallible humans trying to describe their feelings about, and history with, an Infallible Creator, then I agree that there is a challenge at hand in attempting to discern what parts of it should be taken literally and what parts taken with a grain of salt, with the realization they are allegorical tales. Or pure mythos.

Personally, I--even in my Catholic youth--avoided the Old Testament as much as possible and focused on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. But you should know that the very word "myth" does not necessarily become synonymous with "fiction." Sometimes mythology is a literary vehicle used to convey a certain truth--one too big or momentous for mere everyday vernacular. So images and pictures and allegory are used.

Think of it like this: a "ritual" is acting-out a story or belief physically. One that may have truth at its kernel. And "myth" is the written version of a ritual.

The Hebrews certainly has an agenda. No doubt. They were tired of getting their butts kicked all the time. Enslaved. Oppressed. So they skewed the reality of the true god and anthropomorphized him into Yahweh, who loved to kick azz on their enemies.

So...while This literary style can certainly be said to diminish their credibility a little, it should not be used in denigrating the existence of a True Creator.

It is like how you read differing accounts of a certain TRUE event in different newspapers. Or see them on different TV Networks. Fox, or MSNBC. They will give you slightly altered "takes" on the same, true event, in order to try and get you to see it through their preferred lens, i.e. liberal of conservative.

But yet..despite their bias, the event really DID happen.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/9/2015 3:07:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 2:57:51 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/9/2015 8:22:49 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:24:10 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

I love God because He has created the entire Universe for mankind (that's us).

He then created a planet that was capable of supporting life and He put us there with everything we need.

Then, God finally created man, and He loves man, so He gave man the Knowledge of Good and Evil so that we can be like Him, in His Image.

He has Determined that we should all go through trials and sufferings, so that we might learn the utter Evil of these things.

Man has done just about every Evil possible, and that is why Yeshua came. He was a Man, just like us, but He overcame Sin and Evil.

However, we killed this Man for the same reason Cain killed Abel.

God our Father raised Him from the dead, as a Covenant with us that He will raise us all.

In the End, God will teach all men Righteousness, and all men will share in the Glory our Father has prepared for us.

But the main reason is:

"We love him, because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19

And once you feel this Love, there's no going back.

God is the Potter and He has formed Perfection. We are the pottery. God is the Composer and He has created a masterpiece. We are His instrument. God is the Artist and He has made all things. We are His canvas. He loves all of mankind and He WILL deliver us from this meaningless world.

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:20

All things will return to the One who made it, and He is doing this for our Glory.

"When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet" Psalm 8:3

We love God because God is Love, so without Him there could be no love. He has chosen a few to believe, and we tell the world what God has done for us through the foolishness of preaching.

"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Corinthians 1:20

If you believe this, you can join us in "eternal life":

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

There is NOTHING greater than this. The Greek here is Aionios Zoe, or Unto the Life Age. That's right now, and it is Wonderful.

The One True God is the only one who makes sense. The rest of the gods want to send people to a pagan eternal hell of torture or annihilate them. Our God is both willing and able to gather all people into one, that we will all share in His beautiful promises. God bless you friend.

Poetic, even beautiful words. Pity is they have no basis in fact and the book in which they were written has been demonstrated to be false in any number of ways. Belief in this deity, love for this mythical being is irrational. Save your blessings and go do something useful.

Hey dhardage! I've missed you my friend. Yes, the Gospel is poetic and beautiful. It's also very simple:

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3

No need for all that Scientific mumbo jumbo, just the Gospel. Because this world is passing away and we are all passing with it. Whether we die when we're born, when we're 25, or when we're 100, what does it matter? Whether we die by sword, disease, weather, or burning at the stake, what does it matter? Everything is meaningless, and we can't do anything about it. But our Father has done something about it, and He has made good on His promise. So we rejoice, while the world mourns. We rest, while the world worries. Because we know that in the end, God has Determined the most beautiful purpose for us. Then, nobody will be able to resist His Love. Thank you friend.

The world is not passing away, nor are those who people it. Life goes on and when you ignore the future you cheapen the present and waste the only lifetime you have. I would pity you except that it is a delusion of your choice.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/9/2015 3:12:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 3:03:50 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/9/2015 2:51:56 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/9/2015 2:37:28 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
You should also know that only a handful of Christians today believe to a literal interpretation of the bible. Most of them, especially the progressive or "liberal" Christians realize that the bible was originally not one single cohesive book meant to be read as a literal history book, but is rather a compendium of myth and allegory written by dozens of authors over the span of a dozen decades or more.

Therefore most of those stories--especially in the OT--should be read as allegorical. Some are meant as metaphorical cautionary tales. And yes, some are purely conceived and fabricated so as to support the author's specific agenda.

The bible is a work of man. An attempt by a largely-illiterate Bronze Age peoples to convey their God experiences. To read it as history is to miss out on the beauty of the Big Picture. Do not blame God for the shortcomings of his children. To do so is to cut off your nose to spite your face and to miss out on the important chance of attaining his Grace.

Which is priceless.

Next?

Then your entire faith is based on the words of other human beings, many who did believe in the literal translation of your holy book. If you cannot take it the way it was written, how can you believe it was inspired by a supernatural deity that is infallible? How can you know what part is supposed to be taken literally and which is allegory? What is supposed to be true and what is made up? You don't have the original documents, you did not live in the time of the writing so you have no reference for the way these authors thought. Seems irrational to take anything from this mishmash of other books as fact, particularly the existence of an invisible, undetectable supernatural deity that supposedly created the universe and watches your every move like a stalker.


Since, as you say, the bible IS a work of fallible humans trying to describe their feelings about, and history with, an Infallible Creator, then I agree that there is a challenge at hand in attempting to discern what parts of it should be taken literally and what parts taken with a grain of salt, with the realization they are allegorical tales. Or pure mythos.

Personally, I--even in my Catholic youth--avoided the Old Testament as much as possible and focused on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. But you should know that the very word "myth" does not necessarily become synonymous with "fiction." Sometimes mythology is a literary vehicle used to convey a certain truth--one too big or momentous for mere everyday vernacular. So images and pictures and allegory are used.

Think of it like this: a "ritual" is acting-out a story or belief physically. One that may have truth at its kernel. And "myth" is the written version of a ritual.

The Hebrews certainly has an agenda. No doubt. They were tired of getting their butts kicked all the time. Enslaved. Oppressed. So they skewed the reality of the true god and anthropomorphized him into Yahweh, who loved to kick azz on their enemies.

So...while This literary style can certainly be said to diminish their credibility a little, it should not be used in denigrating the existence of a True Creator.

It is like how you read differing accounts of a certain TRUE event in different newspapers. Or see them on different TV Networks. Fox, or MSNBC. They will give you slightly altered "takes" on the same, true event, in order to try and get you to see it through their preferred lens, i.e. liberal of conservative.

But yet..despite their bias, the event really DID happen.

Indeed they did, but no one has based an entire ideology on those usually slanted reports. The biggest difference is that those events can be checked on, confirmed or refuted with facts. The Christian holy book has no facts, only oral heresay written well after the fact, translated, redacted, compiled and heavily edited by groups whose only function was to control the population. I agree that some myth has a basis in fact but again, you have no facts, only conjecture. You cannot say with any authority what the original authors of each of those books was thinking because we are removed by millennia from that stage in human development. To give it any credence beyond recognizing some of the lessons taught are good ones is, as previously noted, irrational.
Saint_of_Me
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6/9/2015 3:28:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
True. Of course we cannot know or verify the veracity of ancient biblical accounts like we could the true story of, say, a riot in Chicago over a cop killing an unarmed youth.

But please remember the question in the OP here.

I am only attempting to answer it. And explain the foundation and the cause of the faith of the believers.

Remember too, I am Agnostic. A lapsed Catholic, and have mostly been playing the role of Devil's Advocate in this thread! LOL (Hmm...Devil's Advocate: a truly ironic moniker given the subject at hand, no?)
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
MadCornishBiker
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6/9/2015 3:51:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 2:37:28 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
You should also know that only a handful of Christians today believe to a literal interpretation of the bible. Most of them, especially the progressive or "liberal" Christians realize that the bible was originally not one single cohesive book meant to be read as a literal history book, but is rather a compendium of myth and allegory written by dozens of authors over the span of a dozen decades or more.

I agree with you, which just proves that Jesus was right when he said the what is recorded below doesn't it.

Luke 18:8
YLT(i) 8 I say to you, that He will execute the justice to them quickly; but the Son of Man having come, shall he find the faith upon the earth?'

The vast majority of those calling themselves Christian aren't.

All true Christians accept the bible for what it is, what Jesus, his own son incarnate, and the Apostles accepted it as.

The inspired word of God.

If Jehovah's own son believed it, what right have we to call him a liar? After all, he was right there, through it all, in fact as the Word he passed it all down to us humans.

If you don't accept that, and do not believe what scripture teaches 100% then you aren't Christian, simple as.


Therefore most of those stories--especially in the OT--should be read as allegorical. Some are meant as metaphorical cautionary tales. And yes, some are purely conceived and fabricated so as to support the author's specific agenda.

The bible is a work of man. An attempt by a largely-illiterate Bronze Age peoples to convey their God experiences. To read it as history is to miss out on the beauty of the Big Picture. Do not blame God for the shortcomings of his children. To do so is to cut off your nose to spite your face and to miss out on the important chance of attaining his Grace.

Which is priceless.

Next?

Jesus also believed that the bible was not the work of man, as did the Apostles.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
YLT(i) 16 every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fitted"for every good work having been completed.

Put your faith in man rather than God by all means, but don;t pretend to be Christian whilst you are doing it because you will be laying to yourselves and every one else.

As Paul once said "Let God be proved true though every man be found a liar" - and he will be, as will his word the bible, his son, and all who follow them and trust in them.

It really does boil down to that.

Do you believe men, or God.
Serato
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6/9/2015 3:54:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:32:26 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't get why people "love" the God called Jehovah. A God who OK's slavery, commits genocide etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

He who be the first must first be your slave, well this is not condoning slavery. You need to cite specific examples. Certain genocide attempts were made in vain obviously, as the seed of the serpent still slithers about. It's the tares amongst the wheat maybe. I say we reignite this genocide and get it done right.