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what is the most faith shaking arguments?

ClashnBoom
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6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
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6/9/2015 6:18:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

For me since I'm a Christian there were numerous facts and arguments that made me think for whole nights but the most recent ones are

1. Who or what created God?

2. God never changes?

The who created God argument is scary because most Christians say that God is real because everything must have a cause but if that is true what caused God's creation? And who or what made him? I personally don't have a good counterargument to that yet.

The God never changes argument is a long one, it basically states that " In the Bible it says that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and Christians say that it is a faith not a fact that he is real but in the Bible God constantly proves to the people that he is real and that means it was once a fact and if he is not showing himself anymore it means he is ether contradicting the Bible (the mean source of evidence) or is not real." My argument to that is God only proved himself to some people like today and he had a quite period when he didn't prove himself.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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6/9/2015 6:20:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

Since I lost my faith at the age of 19, I have never heard an argument, by a person of faith, which has made me doubt my lack of belief.
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
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6/9/2015 6:40:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 6:20:50 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

Since I lost my faith at the age of 19, I have never heard an argument, by a person of faith, which has made me doubt my lack of belief.

You were once religious?
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
Floid
Posts: 751
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6/9/2015 7:04:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

The hardest for me when I was a Christian was the problem of suffering. Children are born everyday just to suffer and die of preventable disease, starvation, or with pre-existing birth defects that sentence them to pain and suffering. The argument against that was its all part of God's plan or its OK because they will go to heaven. That is something you either buy into or you don't so you can't really have a rational argument on the subject.

Before ceasing to believe I had examined pretty much every argument and found them unconvincing so I haven't really heard anything new since that would be "faith shaking" to my non-belief.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/9/2015 7:05:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

When you have faith in a fantasy, the most faith shaking argument is one which causes you to face REALITY and give up the fantasy.
It is much like a child who has faith in Santa being told Santa is not real. They do not want to accept it at first because in their mind he is very real since they have as much evidence as they need in the form of presents "magically" appearing under a xmas tree overnight and all the artificial evidence the parents put around the place to convince them magic reindeers have been in the yard or Santa drank the milk and ate the cookies they left out for him, etc.
People will believe whatever illusions they hold on to if those illusions give them some sense of security even if it is a false sense of security.
If an argument has not shaken your faith, it was not a faith shaking argument. If you experienced a faith shaking argument, it would cause you to change your mind and no longer have faith in whatever fantasy you once had faith in. It would cause you to grow up and face reality like the reality that Santa is just a concept and is not a real magic man. The concept is promoted by mankind in order to make money and "have fun" playing make believe with children.

God is also a concept promoted by humans to make converts and ultimately money for religions which convince the converts that God needs their money.
Ultimately humans are Gods in the same way humans are Santas.
The supernatural or magical character is a figment of human imagination. It takes a perfectly natural man to create a perfectly natural man in his own image and he does it through the process of reproduction not by making a clay figure and breathing air into it.
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
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6/9/2015 7:36:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 7:04:59 AM, Floid wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

The hardest for me when I was a Christian was the problem of suffering. Children are born everyday just to suffer and die of preventable disease, starvation, or with pre-existing birth defects that sentence them to pain and suffering. The argument against that was its all part of God's plan or its OK because they will go to heaven. That is something you either buy into or you don't so you can't really have a rational argument on the subject.

Before ceasing to believe I had examined pretty much every argument and found them unconvincing so I haven't really heard anything new since that would be "faith shaking" to my non-belief.

I had that question too but when I asked my pastor he said this "God is about what is fair because if he were than we would all be burning in Hell but instead he is a God of forgiveness." He also said that God sometimes used the physically disabled for examples of his miracles and like what the twelve disciples implied some people are born that way because of his\her parents.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/9/2015 8:38:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 7:36:01 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/9/2015 7:04:59 AM, Floid wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

The hardest for me when I was a Christian was the problem of suffering. Children are born everyday just to suffer and die of preventable disease, starvation, or with pre-existing birth defects that sentence them to pain and suffering. The argument against that was its all part of God's plan or its OK because they will go to heaven. That is something you either buy into or you don't so you can't really have a rational argument on the subject.

Before ceasing to believe I had examined pretty much every argument and found them unconvincing so I haven't really heard anything new since that would be "faith shaking" to my non-belief.

I had that question too but when I asked my pastor he said this "God is about what is fair because if he were than we would all be burning in Hell but instead he is a God of forgiveness." He also said that God sometimes used the physically disabled for examples of his miracles and like what the twelve disciples implied some people are born that way because of his\her parents.

Those arguments are heinous examples of blaming the victim, objectifying them, or even blaming the misery of the child on the sins of the father. I detest such excuses.

For the record, I was born and raised Southern Baptist. I was probably 12 or 13 when I finally realized that the basis of all that I'd been taught was good was a fake as a 3 dollar bill. It took me another couple of years to externalize it to myself and admit, even in the privacy of my own mind, that I was an atheist. To be honest, my own family does not know although I'm sure they suspect when I won't go to church services with them.

From my perspective I no longer have any faith to shake. Faith is belief without evidence, even in the face of evidence of falsity. I cannot believe in that which cannot be demonstrated or evidenced in some way besides 'revelation from above' and that's about all religion in general and Christianity in specific has. Even the offshoots such as Mormonism have prophets who basically told people 'God said this' and they believe him. So, to put a point on it, there has been no argument in the last 40 years that has in any way pointed to any religion as being valid.
Floid
Posts: 751
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6/9/2015 8:41:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 7:36:01 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/9/2015 7:04:59 AM, Floid wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

The hardest for me when I was a Christian was the problem of suffering. Children are born everyday just to suffer and die of preventable disease, starvation, or with pre-existing birth defects that sentence them to pain and suffering. The argument against that was its all part of God's plan or its OK because they will go to heaven. That is something you either buy into or you don't so you can't really have a rational argument on the subject.

Before ceasing to believe I had examined pretty much every argument and found them unconvincing so I haven't really heard anything new since that would be "faith shaking" to my non-belief.

I had that question too but when I asked my pastor he said this "God is about what is fair because if he were than we would all be burning in Hell but instead he is a God of forgiveness."

That is a silly response from a pastor. Why is it fair that we would all be burning in hell? What did a newborn child do to deserve that? I don't find convicting someone of their crimes before they are committed fair. And if the response is we are born sinners then how is it fair to punish us for not being perfect when God is the one who created us that way?

He also said that God sometimes used the physically disabled for examples of his miracles and like what the twelve disciples implied some people are born that way because of his\her parents.

That is a perverse idea. God inflicts disabilities, pain and suffering on people so that he can perform miracles on a few of them while the vast majority get to suffer and die? No thanks, can't see the logic in that one. Same goes for punishing someone for the sins of their parents. Their are places where that happens in the world like North Korea. Think I will pass on that as well.

That is the problem with the issue of suffering. The proposed answers are worse than the problem itself.
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
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6/9/2015 9:24:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 8:41:09 AM, Floid wrote:
At 6/9/2015 7:36:01 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/9/2015 7:04:59 AM, Floid wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

The hardest for me when I was a Christian was the problem of suffering. Children are born everyday just to suffer and die of preventable disease, starvation, or with pre-existing birth defects that sentence them to pain and suffering. The argument against that was its all part of God's plan or its OK because they will go to heaven. That is something you either buy into or you don't so you can't really have a rational argument on the subject.

Before ceasing to believe I had examined pretty much every argument and found them unconvincing so I haven't really heard anything new since that would be "faith shaking" to my non-belief.

I had that question too but when I asked my pastor he said this "God is about what is fair because if he were than we would all be burning in Hell but instead he is a God of forgiveness."

That is a silly response from a pastor. Why is it fair that we would all be burning in hell? What did a newborn child do to deserve that? I don't find convicting someone of their crimes before they are committed fair. And if the response is we are born sinners then how is it fair to punish us for not being perfect when God is the one who created us that way?

He also said that God sometimes used the physically disabled for examples of his miracles and like what the twelve disciples implied some people are born that way because of his\her parents.

That is a perverse idea. God inflicts disabilities, pain and suffering on people so that he can perform miracles on a few of them while the vast majority get to suffer and die? No thanks, can't see the logic in that one. Same goes for punishing someone for the sins of their parents. Their are places where that happens in the world like North Korea. Think I will pass on that as well.

That is the problem with the issue of suffering. The proposed answers are worse than the problem itself.

You know this would've got me thinking but luckily we just had a sermon on the exact same topic.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
Floid
Posts: 751
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6/9/2015 9:49:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 9:24:27 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/9/2015 8:41:09 AM, Floid wrote:
At 6/9/2015 7:36:01 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/9/2015 7:04:59 AM, Floid wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

The hardest for me when I was a Christian was the problem of suffering. Children are born everyday just to suffer and die of preventable disease, starvation, or with pre-existing birth defects that sentence them to pain and suffering. The argument against that was its all part of God's plan or its OK because they will go to heaven. That is something you either buy into or you don't so you can't really have a rational argument on the subject.

Before ceasing to believe I had examined pretty much every argument and found them unconvincing so I haven't really heard anything new since that would be "faith shaking" to my non-belief.

I had that question too but when I asked my pastor he said this "God is about what is fair because if he were than we would all be burning in Hell but instead he is a God of forgiveness."

That is a silly response from a pastor. Why is it fair that we would all be burning in hell? What did a newborn child do to deserve that? I don't find convicting someone of their crimes before they are committed fair. And if the response is we are born sinners then how is it fair to punish us for not being perfect when God is the one who created us that way?

He also said that God sometimes used the physically disabled for examples of his miracles and like what the twelve disciples implied some people are born that way because of his\her parents.

That is a perverse idea. God inflicts disabilities, pain and suffering on people so that he can perform miracles on a few of them while the vast majority get to suffer and die? No thanks, can't see the logic in that one. Same goes for punishing someone for the sins of their parents. Their are places where that happens in the world like North Korea. Think I will pass on that as well.

That is the problem with the issue of suffering. The proposed answers are worse than the problem itself.

You know this would've got me thinking but luckily we just had a sermon on the exact same topic.

By all means don't think then... the Bible makes it fairly clear that is a bad thing to do.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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6/9/2015 10:01:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

The concept of eternal damnation. For me that is the hardest pill to swallow.

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

All sorts of things make me research - that is why I participate in forums like this. It forces me to better understand my faith.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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6/9/2015 10:45:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Faith exists despite arguments, faith will never be shaken by arguments, it is only ever defeated by the believers capacity for independent thought and the exercise of such.
Atheists in our society are usually the result of thought and examination as opposed to the theists, who are the result of indoctrination.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
4runner
Posts: 103
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6/9/2015 11:43:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true? : :

I was an atheist until God spoke to me so I didn't get influenced by any religious person.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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6/9/2015 11:50:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 11:43:59 AM, 4runner wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true? : :

I was an atheist until God spoke to me so I didn't get influenced by any religious person.

I'm amazed you are still here bog. Well done.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
4runner
Posts: 103
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6/9/2015 12:00:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 11:50:03 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/9/2015 11:43:59 AM, 4runner wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true? : :

I was an atheist until God spoke to me so I didn't get influenced by any religious person.

I'm amazed you are still here bog. Well done. : :

Why are you calling me bog?
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/9/2015 3:23:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As an Agnostic these are the best arguments I have encountered for God, or for the divinity and physical resurrection of Jesus--whom I believe was f ully mortal man, a teacher, and died and was only perhaps resurrected in a "spiritual" sense by his followers.....

For God.........

What came before the Big Bang? How can you get something from nothing?

For God--and why He "allows" Evil.........Because he gave us Free Will. And if we did not have this--to abuse as we do, which is where violence and suffering arise--we would be less than human beings. We would have no chance to learn. To know love. To persevere with Faith that results in a Heavenly Afterlife.

For the Divinity of Jesus.....

The fact that the gospels have women discovering Jesus' empty tomb after he was bodily resurrected. Back in 1st Century Palestine, women were decidedly thought of as inferior to men. Their opinions meant nothing. They were not even allowed to testify in court. So why would a gospel writer who was penning a fictitious account of JC resurrecting have lowly women find his empty tomb? Why not have, say, Pharisees or Roman Centurions find it? Or even male apostles?

CS Lewis' "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord" Argument....either Jesus was who he said he was: the Son of God. Or he was lying, or he was a certifiable lunatic. Like a guy today in a loony bin who claims he is Napoleon. So...given his fine teachings and accounts of him in the gospels, which option is most likely?
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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6/9/2015 4:28:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 6:18:19 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

For me since I'm a Christian there were numerous facts and arguments that made me think for whole nights but the most recent ones are

1. Who or what created God?

2. God never changes?

The who created God argument is scary because most Christians say that God is real because everything must have a cause but if that is true what caused God's creation? And who or what made him? I personally don't have a good counterargument to that yet.

I know you're only answering the questions but what kinda "Christian" are you asking these things lol?
Not true, everything "material" must have a first cause to exist, God is not a material Being so He does not fall within that category. Anything in this material existence is cause and effect and point A to point B, life to death ect. but when we enter into eternity the cycle of life and death are removed, rather eternity works like a circle not a line from beginning to end.
It's a simple argument really if you know what eternity represents or how it works. God doesn't need to be created because He is eternal, meaning He exists as Spirit outside the restrictions of the physical realm. Thereby if anything material exists it is because of the intention of God the Creator who is immaterial.
:
The God never changes argument is a long one, it basically states that " In the Bible it says that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and Christians say that it is a faith not a fact that he is real but in the Bible God constantly proves to the people that he is real and that means it was once a fact and if he is not showing himself anymore it means he is ether contradicting the Bible (the mean source of evidence) or is not real." My argument to that is God only proved himself to some people like today and he had a quite period when he didn't prove himself.

God has always moved by spirit, whether it is a revelation, vision, prophecy, miracle ect all things come by way of the Spirit and through the spirit (read Romans 8) and nothing has changed since. What was true about the spiritual then is true now and always will be, it is the material that fades, changes and decays.
We are vessels and we represent what is God on this earth, not the other way around. God gave us dominion on the earth and access to the spirit within.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
EtrnlVw
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6/9/2015 4:41:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 7:04:59 AM, Floid wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

The hardest for me when I was a Christian was the problem of suffering. Children are born everyday just to suffer and die of preventable disease, starvation, or with pre-existing birth defects that sentence them to pain and suffering. The argument against that was its all part of God's plan or its OK because they will go to heaven. That is something you either buy into or you don't so you can't really have a rational argument on the subject.

Before ceasing to believe I had examined pretty much every argument and found them unconvincing so I haven't really heard anything new since that would be "faith shaking" to my non-belief.

God is not the cause of suffering, everything that runs in this material system works within a cycle of reaping and sowing (cause and effect), including you and all that pass through this earth.
When you have complete understanding of cause and effect you will see the split from where God is and where we are as a species. Everything in this material universe is run by cause and then produces effect, what we eat, what we think, what we decide and whatever we do period. In other words we see the results of our own doings, this is not a cruelty but a natural reality where the cycle runs the show, not the maker.
You are a product of your parents not a product of perfection. The dominion and responsibilities fall on us.
Philocat
Posts: 728
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6/9/2015 4:52:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Probably, for me, it's the problem of animal suffering. I can respond to the problem of human suffering by using the Ireaean theodicy, but this doesn't work for animals.

After some thought and research, my response to this problem is as follows:

Pain is unpleasant, but evolution dictates that it is necessary for our survival. Paul Brand was a physician who worked with lepers who often lost the ability to feel pain in their extremities. This meant that the lepers became injured far more frequuently because they do not have the warning-function of pain. Despite being unpleasant, pain is necessary for survival, as it alerts us to bodily damage that may have gone unheeded, as well as discourage us from engaging in dangerous acts.

Animal suffering is an unfortunate side effect to the necessity of pain, but without pain then animals would be far less functional or able to survive.
Furthermore, if we are unable to feel pain then we are also unable to feel pleasure. Yet I'm sure that most people would prefer to be open to pleasure and pain than be immune from both.
Envisage
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6/9/2015 4:54:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?

I don't think I have ever found any argument convincing. I change my views upon education and inquiry. Arguments seldom generate any new information or facts, and they are just arguments.

They are pretty good for showing failings in your reasoning, but they aren't very good at demonstrating a conclusion.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/9/2015 5:05:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?
Perhaps the thing that perturbs me most about faith, Clash, is the faithful's embrace of theologically-sanctioned ignorance.

I first noticed this in late childhood, when I discovered that the faithful were convinced that some questions shouldn't be asked.

That has never made me think a faith might be true, but has made me realise over time just how happy willful ignorance can make the faithful.

And what makes me doubt myself is that, as unpleasant as some answers can be, I cannot conceive of a circumstance where I would not want to ask the question. So whatever is (as it seems to me) dulling the curiosity, intellect and reason of so many believers, it must be very potent psychologically, in ways I can't really apprehend.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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6/9/2015 5:08:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 11:50:03 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/9/2015 11:43:59 AM, 4runner wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

If you are religious what is the argument that an atheist told you that made you scared and made you research for answers? It could also be someone from another religion who told you something that made you doubt your God.

If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true? : :

I was an atheist until God spoke to me so I didn't get influenced by any religious person.

I'm amazed you are still here bog. Well done.

I knew others would start calling him out.

Can't they ban his IP or something?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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6/9/2015 5:23:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 5:05:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?
Perhaps the thing that perturbs me most about faith, Clash, is the faithful's embrace of theologically-sanctioned ignorance.

Could you give me an example please?

I first noticed this in late childhood, when I discovered that the faithful were convinced that some questions shouldn't be asked.

Lol, I'm beginning to notice a common thread in atheists that were once "Christian" base their relation with scripture to other so called believers, I find that very distasteful in many ways.
Can you give me an example of some of these questions if I may ask?

That has never made me think a faith might be true, but has made me realise over time just how happy willful ignorance can make the faithful.

What is this wilful ignorance? be specific when you say something so vague. But again you seem to be girding your thoughts about these things based on others. I find that a little wilfully ignorant.
Do you know what faith is in scripture? You use that term so loosely.

And what makes me doubt myself is that, as unpleasant as some answers can be, I cannot conceive of a circumstance where I would not want to ask the question. So whatever is (as it seems to me) dulling the curiosity, intellect and reason of so many believers, it must be very potent psychologically, in ways I can't really apprehend.

LOL, how about you break this down with a simple example, please?

I know you are answering questions here but I would be interested an illustration of something real to fit with these assertions.
RuvDraba
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6/9/2015 5:43:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 5:23:10 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 6/9/2015 5:05:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?
Perhaps the thing that perturbs me most about faith, Clash, is the faithful's embrace of theologically-sanctioned ignorance.
Could you give me an example please?
Lol, I'm beginning to notice a common thread in atheists that were once "Christian" base their relation with scripture to other so called believers, I find that very distasteful in many ways.
I'm sorry, EV, but I have never been Christian, nor an adherent of any other faith.

By willful ignorance I mean the dismissal of evidence, or credible alternative possibility. This is often called 'faith', but I view faith as something else. I can offer many personal examples, but I suspect you'll only dismiss them as personal, even though that's what you've asked for -- you've already started to do that in your request for further info.

Here's how I see it, EV:

If a religious belief is true, then it will be true regardless of who is looking, and regardless of how many alternatives are explored. So there should be no problem at all viewing theology skeptically, or with some other notion in mind: the weight of evidence should promptly swing one back to a particular theology.

But examine theology on any major topic regarding our existence: physics, history, medicine, astronomy, geology, biology, psychology, sociology, astrophysics -- it doesn't matter much which theology, or which major topic -- and it falls apart. There are vast gaps, contradictions, false assertions, and most theologies lack any accountable way to amend them -- so they persist, generation after generation. Or worse -- they're tweaked without ever admitting error and accepting the loss of authority that this should entail.

I could detect this even in late childhood, when Old Testament stories were being taught as historical truths. But you can find the same anywhere, and the more you inquire about the world, the more the reliable answers differ from those predicted by theologies.

By any rational measure I can conceive, that ought to bother the heck out of the faithful. Here's the most important belief-system in their lives -- one imposing huge constraint on how they think and live, and ostensibly prescribing their life's purpose -- and it's not historically consistent, and doesn't work correctly with anything else we rely on.

Yet... apparently the faithful can not only live with that, they love living doing so. It seems to make them feel empowered, important and virtuous dancing around the holes and rockfalls.

it's that sense of empowerment that perturbs me, EV. In no way does it make faith more appealing; it simply bothers me that one can be so badly inconsistent, so poorly accountable, yet so apparently self-satisfied.
EtrnlVw
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6/9/2015 5:55:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 5:43:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/9/2015 5:23:10 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 6/9/2015 5:05:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
If you are an atheist what is something that a religious person told you that made you question whether or not his religion is true?
Perhaps the thing that perturbs me most about faith, Clash, is the faithful's embrace of theologically-sanctioned ignorance.
Could you give me an example please?
Lol, I'm beginning to notice a common thread in atheists that were once "Christian" base their relation with scripture to other so called believers, I find that very distasteful in many ways.
I'm sorry, EV, but I have never been Christian, nor an adherent of any other faith.

By willful ignorance I mean the dismissal of evidence, or credible alternative possibility. This is often called 'faith', but I view faith as something else. I can offer many personal examples, but I suspect you'll only dismiss them as personal, even though that's what you've asked for -- you've already started to do that in your request for further info.

Here's how I see it, EV:

If a religious belief is true, then it will be true regardless of who is looking, and regardless of how many alternatives are explored. So there should be no problem at all viewing theology skeptically, or with some other notion in mind: the weight of evidence should promptly swing one back to a particular theology.

But examine theology on any major topic regarding our existence: physics, history, medicine, astronomy, geology, biology, psychology, sociology, astrophysics -- it doesn't matter much which theology, or which major topic -- and it falls apart. There are vast gaps, contradictions, false assertions, and most theologies lack any accountable way to amend them -- so they persist, generation after generation. Or worse -- they're tweaked without ever admitting error and accepting the loss of authority that this should entail.

I could detect this even in late childhood, when Old Testament stories were being taught as historical truths. But you can find the same anywhere, and the more you inquire about the world, the more the reliable answers differ from those predicted by theologies.

By any rational measure I can conceive, that ought to bother the heck out of the faithful. Here's the most important belief-system in their lives -- one imposing huge constraint on how they think and live, and ostensibly prescribing their life's purpose -- and it's not historically consistent, and doesn't work correctly with anything else we rely on.

Yet... apparently the faithful can not only live with that, they love living doing so. It seems to make them feel empowered, important and virtuous dancing around the holes and rockfalls.

it's that sense of empowerment that perturbs me, EV. In no way does it make faith more appealing; it simply bothers me that one can be so badly inconsistent, so poorly accountable, yet so apparently self-satisfied.

You haven't given me a single example Ruv, you keep talking theology but I've seen no specifics, what theology presents contradictions, or any of the things you said?
RuvDraba
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6/9/2015 6:27:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 5:55:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 6/9/2015 5:43:27 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Examine theology on any major topic regarding our existence: physics, history, medicine, astronomy, geology, biology, psychology, sociology, astrophysics -- it doesn't matter much which theology, or which major topic -- and it falls apart. There are vast gaps, contradictions, false assertions, and most theologies lack any accountable way to amend them -- so they persist, generation after generation. Or worse -- they're tweaked without ever admitting error and accepting the loss of authority that this should entail.
By any rational measure I can conceive, that ought to bother the heck out of the faithful.
You haven't given me a single example Ruv, you keep talking theology but I've seen no specifics, what theology presents contradictions, or any of the things you said?
EV, I believe you're seeking to quibble over examples and plead exceptionalism for your own belief. To curtail that, I'll invite you to find some errors, holes and inconsistencies in some other theology and present them. I'll confirm whether these are examples of the kind of thing I've been talking about.

Or if you can't do that, then I invite you to explain how you mean to contribute constructively when you've never been able to identify a single gap, error or inconsistency in any theology.
dee-em
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6/9/2015 7:57:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

Alzheimer's. And traumatic, personality altering brain injury. Who ends up in heaven and with what mind?

Also, that old favourite, the PoE.
dee-em
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6/9/2015 8:13:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 10:01:17 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/9/2015 6:05:52 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
What is the most faith shaking arguments you have ever heard? And what was you counter argument?

The concept of eternal damnation. For me that is the hardest pill to swallow.

Yes. Infinite punishment for a finite crime. That has to be a faith shaker.

A variation on that would be a digital outcome (heaven or hell) for analog behaviour. Where exactly is the tipping point between an atheist who leads an unblemished, moral life and someone like Pol Pot? Do both really deserve exactly the same punishment of eternal damnation?