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Persecuted groups who fabricated miracles

rakovsky
Posts: 58
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6/11/2015 9:22:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Have there been persecuted sects with multiple witnesses who fabricated miracles?

One of the foundational arguments that Jesus' post-Resurrection physical appearances were real events and not fabrications is that the apostles underwent persecution and risked being killed for their beliefs.
Let me explain the argument:
(1)The early Christian writings portray Jesus' appearances and birth from a virgin as real physical events, not delusions or allegories. Matthew, Luke, and John specify physical aspects of Jesus' appearances, like the women at the tomb holding Jesus' feet. Mark implies that the appearances were physical, because the tomb was empty and the boy there said that Jesus was going to Galilee, which means He was traveling through physical space instead of simply appearing. And Mark has plenty of miracle stories, although they are not as extreme as a transfigured resurrection. Paul implies the belief in the virgin birth when he writes that Jesus was "born of a woman", which reflects another belief in an extreme miracle of Jesus. Based on the clear physical nature of these alleged extreme miracles, along with the fact that the Bible claims that Jesus made the physical appearances to eleven apostles, they were not delusions. This leaves open the question of whether they were fabricated.

(2) Nor were the stories of Christ's extreme miracles likely made up decades later, because Paul implied the virgin birth in his epistle, which was written about 10-15 years after the Resurrection. The extreme miracles show multiple attestation through the gospel books spread by the Christian community and there is no record of a Christian sect splitting off and claiming that the claims of Jesus' virgin birth and physical resurrection were new fabrications.

(3) For the claims of the extreme miracles, we must rely on the witness of about 11 apostles and a few women. The Bible does not specify whether the later appearances of Jesus to 70 followers or 500 followers were physical. We also must trust them that Mary was a virgin and that they didn't remove Jesus' body from the grave, eg. by taking the body before the guards got there on Saturday or by overpowering the tomb's guards at night.

(4) Consequently, the main reason that we know that the apostles were not lying and these main miracles were real is because people would not make up miracle stories for their sect if they risked being killed for their membership in a cult. The apostles would not risk dying for a religion that they believed was false, and so they wouldn't make up extreme miracles for it.

Is this argument correct? Were there any other sects wherein:
(A) around a dozen followers
(B) made up miracle stories and
(C) voluntarily risked a serious likelihood of dying for their sect?

Three sects that may or may not qualify:

1. Shia Muslims: They claimed miracles in their tradition and at times were persecuted by the Sunni Muslims.

2. Sufi Muslims: Miracles are an important aspect of Sufiism and at times they have been persecuted.

3. A persecuted sect formed around Lo Hwai, a prophet in 18th century Shantung who allegedly performed extreme miracles like flying.
See: Sectarianism and Religious Persecution in China, By Jan Jakob Maria Groot

Do you know more about these three sects and can you think of others that might qualify?
The Shia and Sufis claim both miracles and persecution, but a key question would be whether their persecution coincided with their claims of miracles. That is, did the same people who claimed miracles expect persecution?
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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6/11/2015 9:45:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/11/2015 9:22:57 AM, rakovsky wrote:
Have there been persecuted sects with multiple witnesses who fabricated miracles?

One of the foundational arguments that Jesus' post-Resurrection physical appearances were real events and not fabrications is that the apostles underwent persecution and risked being killed for their beliefs.
Let me explain the argument:
(1)The early Christian writings portray Jesus' appearances and birth from a virgin as real physical events, not delusions or allegories. Matthew, Luke, and John specify physical aspects of Jesus' appearances, like the women at the tomb holding Jesus' feet. Mark implies that the appearances were physical, because the tomb was empty and the boy there said that Jesus was going to Galilee, which means He was traveling through physical space instead of simply appearing. And Mark has plenty of miracle stories, although they are not as extreme as a transfigured resurrection. Paul implies the belief in the virgin birth when he writes that Jesus was "born of a woman", which reflects another belief in an extreme miracle of Jesus. Based on the clear physical nature of these alleged extreme miracles, along with the fact that the Bible claims that Jesus made the physical appearances to eleven apostles, they were not delusions. This leaves open the question of whether they were fabricated.

(2) Nor were the stories of Christ's extreme miracles likely made up decades later, because Paul implied the virgin birth in his epistle, which was written about 10-15 years after the Resurrection. The extreme miracles show multiple attestation through the gospel books spread by the Christian community and there is no record of a Christian sect splitting off and claiming that the claims of Jesus' virgin birth and physical resurrection were new fabrications.

(3) For the claims of the extreme miracles, we must rely on the witness of about 11 apostles and a few women. The Bible does not specify whether the later appearances of Jesus to 70 followers or 500 followers were physical. We also must trust them that Mary was a virgin and that they didn't remove Jesus' body from the grave, eg. by taking the body before the guards got there on Saturday or by overpowering the tomb's guards at night.

(4) Consequently, the main reason that we know that the apostles were not lying and these main miracles were real is because people would not make up miracle stories for their sect if they risked being killed for their membership in a cult. The apostles would not risk dying for a religion that they believed was false, and so they wouldn't make up extreme miracles for it.

Is this argument correct? Were there any other sects wherein:
(A) around a dozen followers
(B) made up miracle stories and
(C) voluntarily risked a serious likelihood of dying for their sect?

Three sects that may or may not qualify:

1. Shia Muslims: They claimed miracles in their tradition and at times were persecuted by the Sunni Muslims.

2. Sufi Muslims: Miracles are an important aspect of Sufiism and at times they have been persecuted.

3. A persecuted sect formed around Lo Hwai, a prophet in 18th century Shantung who allegedly performed extreme miracles like flying.
See: Sectarianism and Religious Persecution in China, By Jan Jakob Maria Groot

Do you know more about these three sects and can you think of others that might qualify?
The Shia and Sufis claim both miracles and persecution, but a key question would be whether their persecution coincided with their claims of miracles. That is, did the same people who claimed miracles expect persecution?

I am of the opinion if something isn't credible and seemingly not possible like resurrection, it didn't happen.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,011
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6/11/2015 9:53:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
We know the disciples feared for their lives even when Jesus was with them. They did not go to witness his crucifixion. Peter denied he knew Jesus 3 times and Judas even betrayed Jesus.
In short, they did not believe Jesus was God or why would they be fearful associating with him.
Did they grow bolder after Jesus's death? They still kept to the Jewish tradition. It was Paul who broke away and became the apostle of the Gentiles.
rakovsky
Posts: 58
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6/11/2015 9:16:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/11/2015 9:45:13 AM, JJ50 wrote:
I am of the opinion if something isn't credible and seemingly not possible like resurrection, it didn't happen.

According to David Hume, people in equatorial climates should not have even believed in the concept of ice when they hear about it second hand, since it was outside of their understanding and experience of nature. And yet phenomena could exist that violate our understanding of nature.

In any case, for purposes of this question, I am not really necessarily looking for actual miracles per se. I am only looking for cases when self-professed witnesses would know whether or not they experienced a miracle - as opposed to natural phenomena or delusions. Cases that would fit the criteria would include those when the witnesses fabricated the miracle.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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6/11/2015 10:09:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As a Jewish Christian prophesy bearer I am involved in two miraculous spiritual events and one could say in some sense they do pertain to persecuted religious groups: One being Palestinian Israeli Christians in Nazareth, Israel, and the other being persecuted Native Americans in America. But the miracles are outside that social/political condition and are spiritual events.

The Sword of Christ is one of the miracles. It is the Sword of Peace that is a real live Pentecostal miracle as opposed to a story about a Pentecostal event nobody on earth can verify as there are no witnesses outside the story's witnesses, i.e. fictional characters themselves cannot vet real historical events. Christ's Sword is the real life incarnation of Revelation's prophesy of the Sword that smites the nations coming out of the mouth of God, code for prophesy bearers. The Sword of Peace, Saif al Salam, is the Sign of the Messiah, given to the people of the Holy Land to show the Spirit of Christ is returning. The Sword of Christ "speaks" God's will for humanity now without need of any language or speech, this miracle of spiritual communication witnessed by over 500 Nazarean Christians and Muslims too at Easter, in Nazareth, Israel in 2003.

The other miracle is the spiritual melding of two Savior traditions into one that occurred spontaneously with the Vision of Josephine bearing the Spirit of Christ as a Native American spirit woman White Buffalo Calf Woman. I am a recognized prophesy bearer to the Lakota, Northern Cheyenne, and other tribes involved with the WBCW tradition. This has never happened before: Holy Land Christianity fusing with Native American prophesy bringing in the Daughter of God.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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6/12/2015 12:02:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/11/2015 9:22:57 AM, rakovsky wrote:


(4) Consequently, the main reason that we know that the apostles were not lying and these main miracles were real is because people would not make up miracle stories for their sect if they risked being killed for their membership in a cult. The apostles would not risk dying for a religion that they believed was false, and so they wouldn't make up extreme miracles for it.

I dis agree for the following reasons.......

1) People can believe their own bullsh*t

2) In too deep..................well we can't back out now.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Accipiter
Posts: 1,165
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6/12/2015 5:38:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/11/2015 9:22:57 AM, rakovsky wrote:
Have there been persecuted sects with multiple witnesses who fabricated miracles?

One of the foundational arguments that Jesus' post-Resurrection physical appearances were real events and not fabrications is that the apostles underwent persecution and risked being killed for their beliefs.
Let me explain the argument:
(1)The early Christian writings portray Jesus' appearances and birth from a virgin as real physical events, not delusions or allegories. Matthew, Luke, and John specify physical aspects of Jesus' appearances, like the women at the tomb holding Jesus' feet. Mark implies that the appearances were physical, because the tomb was empty and the boy there said that Jesus was going to Galilee, which means He was traveling through physical space instead of simply appearing. And Mark has plenty of miracle stories, although they are not as extreme as a transfigured resurrection. Paul implies the belief in the virgin birth when he writes that Jesus was "born of a woman", which reflects another belief in an extreme miracle of Jesus. Based on the clear physical nature of these alleged extreme miracles, along with the fact that the Bible claims that Jesus made the physical appearances to eleven apostles, they were not delusions. This leaves open the question of whether they were fabricated.

(2) Nor were the stories of Christ's extreme miracles likely made up decades later, because Paul implied the virgin birth in his epistle, which was written about 10-15 years after the Resurrection. The extreme miracles show multiple attestation through the gospel books spread by the Christian community and there is no record of a Christian sect splitting off and claiming that the claims of Jesus' virgin birth and physical resurrection were new fabrications.

(3) For the claims of the extreme miracles, we must rely on the witness of about 11 apostles and a few women. The Bible does not specify whether the later appearances of Jesus to 70 followers or 500 followers were physical. We also must trust them that Mary was a virgin and that they didn't remove Jesus' body from the grave, eg. by taking the body before the guards got there on Saturday or by overpowering the tomb's guards at night.

(4) Consequently, the main reason that we know that the apostles were not lying and these main miracles were real is because people would not make up miracle stories for their sect if they risked being killed for their membership in a cult. The apostles would not risk dying for a religion that they believed was false, and so they wouldn't make up extreme miracles for it.

Is this argument correct? Were there any other sects wherein:
(A) around a dozen followers
(B) made up miracle stories and
(C) voluntarily risked a serious likelihood of dying for their sect?

Three sects that may or may not qualify:

1. Shia Muslims: They claimed miracles in their tradition and at times were persecuted by the Sunni Muslims.

2. Sufi Muslims: Miracles are an important aspect of Sufiism and at times they have been persecuted.

3. A persecuted sect formed around Lo Hwai, a prophet in 18th century Shantung who allegedly performed extreme miracles like flying.
See: Sectarianism and Religious Persecution in China, By Jan Jakob Maria Groot

Do you know more about these three sects and can you think of others that might qualify?
The Shia and Sufis claim both miracles and persecution, but a key question would be whether their persecution coincided with their claims of miracles. That is, did the same people who claimed miracles expect persecution?

Atheists have been persecuted a lot, but as far as I know they haven't reported any miracles.
Accipiter
Posts: 1,165
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6/12/2015 5:53:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/11/2015 9:45:13 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 6/11/2015 9:22:57 AM, rakovsky wrote:
Have there been persecuted sects with multiple witnesses who fabricated miracles?

One of the foundational arguments that Jesus' post-Resurrection physical appearances were real events and not fabrications is that the apostles underwent persecution and risked being killed for their beliefs.
Let me explain the argument:
(1)The early Christian writings portray Jesus' appearances and birth from a virgin as real physical events, not delusions or allegories. Matthew, Luke, and John specify physical aspects of Jesus' appearances, like the women at the tomb holding Jesus' feet. Mark implies that the appearances were physical, because the tomb was empty and the boy there said that Jesus was going to Galilee, which means He was traveling through physical space instead of simply appearing. And Mark has plenty of miracle stories, although they are not as extreme as a transfigured resurrection. Paul implies the belief in the virgin birth when he writes that Jesus was "born of a woman", which reflects another belief in an extreme miracle of Jesus. Based on the clear physical nature of these alleged extreme miracles, along with the fact that the Bible claims that Jesus made the physical appearances to eleven apostles, they were not delusions. This leaves open the question of whether they were fabricated.

(2) Nor were the stories of Christ's extreme miracles likely made up decades later, because Paul implied the virgin birth in his epistle, which was written about 10-15 years after the Resurrection. The extreme miracles show multiple attestation through the gospel books spread by the Christian community and there is no record of a Christian sect splitting off and claiming that the claims of Jesus' virgin birth and physical resurrection were new fabrications.

(3) For the claims of the extreme miracles, we must rely on the witness of about 11 apostles and a few women. The Bible does not specify whether the later appearances of Jesus to 70 followers or 500 followers were physical. We also must trust them that Mary was a virgin and that they didn't remove Jesus' body from the grave, eg. by taking the body before the guards got there on Saturday or by overpowering the tomb's guards at night.

(4) Consequently, the main reason that we know that the apostles were not lying and these main miracles were real is because people would not make up miracle stories for their sect if they risked being killed for their membership in a cult. The apostles would not risk dying for a religion that they believed was false, and so they wouldn't make up extreme miracles for it.

Is this argument correct? Were there any other sects wherein:
(A) around a dozen followers
(B) made up miracle stories and
(C) voluntarily risked a serious likelihood of dying for their sect?

Three sects that may or may not qualify:

1. Shia Muslims: They claimed miracles in their tradition and at times were persecuted by the Sunni Muslims.

2. Sufi Muslims: Miracles are an important aspect of Sufiism and at times they have been persecuted.

3. A persecuted sect formed around Lo Hwai, a prophet in 18th century Shantung who allegedly performed extreme miracles like flying.
See: Sectarianism and Religious Persecution in China, By Jan Jakob Maria Groot

Do you know more about these three sects and can you think of others that might qualify?
The Shia and Sufis claim both miracles and persecution, but a key question would be whether their persecution coincided with their claims of miracles. That is, did the same people who claimed miracles expect persecution?

I am of the opinion if something isn't credible and seemingly not possible like resurrection, it didn't happen.

That and it doesn"t really matter whether it's true or not, it's just useless information either way.

Jesus got resurrected? Well good for you, where's lunch?
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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6/12/2015 6:59:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
rakovsky
Posts: 58
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6/12/2015 7:16:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/11/2015 10:09:58 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
As a Jewish Christian prophesy bearer I am involved in two miraculous spiritual events and one could say in some sense they do pertain to persecuted religious groups: One being Palestinian Israeli Christians in Nazareth, Israel, and the other being persecuted Native Americans in America. But the miracles are outside that social/political condition and are spiritual events.

The Sword of Christ is one of the miracles. It is the Sword of Peace that is a real live Pentecostal miracle as opposed to a story about a Pentecostal event nobody on earth can verify as there are no witnesses outside the story's witnesses, i.e. fictional characters themselves cannot vet real historical events. Christ's Sword is the real life incarnation of Revelation's prophesy of the Sword that smites the nations coming out of the mouth of God, code for prophesy bearers. The Sword of Peace, Saif al Salam, is the Sign of the Messiah, given to the people of the Holy Land to show the Spirit of Christ is returning. The Sword of Christ "speaks" God's will for humanity now without need of any language or speech, this miracle of spiritual communication witnessed by over 500 Nazarean Christians and Muslims too at Easter, in Nazareth, Israel in 2003.

The other miracle is the spiritual melding of two Savior traditions into one that occurred spontaneously with the Vision of Josephine bearing the Spirit of Christ as a Native American spirit woman White Buffalo Calf Woman. I am a recognized prophesy bearer to the Lakota, Northern Cheyenne, and other tribes involved with the WBCW tradition. This has never happened before: Holy Land Christianity fusing with Native American prophesy bringing in the Daughter of God.

Thanks for replying, Stephen. However, I am looking for cases of physical miracles. The events you described like a vision are psychological/spiritual phenomena.