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God created everything

awesomeAlan
Posts: 11
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8/11/2010 9:00:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
If God created everything, then did he create people who do not believe in God? Why did he make some people believe in God while others do? Did God create the other gods that the Egyptians believed in?
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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8/11/2010 9:02:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:00:30 PM, awesomeAlan wrote:
If God created everything, then did he create people who do not believe in God? Why did he make some people believe in God while others do? Did God create the other gods that the Egyptians believed in?

Easiest way to answer everything above... God is fake. Didn't crate squat.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/11/2010 9:05:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:00:30 PM, awesomeAlan wrote:
If God created everything, then did he create people who do not believe in God? Why did he make some people believe in God while others do? Did God create the other gods that the Egyptians believed in?

God doesn't implant people with beliefs and God doesn't create people with predefined beliefs.

(I don't believe in God, I'm just pointing out why it's invalid.)
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:05:38 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:00:30 PM, awesomeAlan wrote:
If God created everything, then did he create people who do not believe in God? Why did he make some people believe in God while others do? Did God create the other gods that the Egyptians believed in?

God doesn't implant people with beliefs and God doesn't create people with predefined beliefs.

(I don't believe in God, I'm just pointing out why it's invalid.)

And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

(atheist as well, just pointing it out)
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/11/2010 9:08:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:06:44 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
God gave us free will. Enough said.

Omniscience negates that. Enough said.

(Ironically, omniscience negates my previous defense given above. :P)
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/11/2010 9:11:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

God sacrificed him. :P Welcome to theology debate!
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/11/2010 9:13:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:11:27 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

God sacrificed him. :P Welcome to theology debate!

No, he sacrificed himself, considering he was supposably God. :P
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/11/2010 9:14:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:13:40 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:11:27 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

God sacrificed him. :P Welcome to theology debate!

No, he sacrificed himself, considering he was supposably God. :P

Your issues with the trinity don't count. :P
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/11/2010 9:15:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:14:26 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:13:40 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:11:27 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

God sacrificed him. :P Welcome to theology debate!

No, he sacrificed himself, considering he was supposably God. :P

Your issues with the trinity don't count. :P

Hey, hey. Shut it you. :P
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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8/11/2010 9:15:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:08:22 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:06:44 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
God gave us free will. Enough said.

Omniscience negates that. Enough said.

(Ironically, omniscience negates my previous defense given above. :P)

How?
'sup DDO -- july 2013
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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8/11/2010 9:17:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:11:27 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

God sacrificed him. :P Welcome to theology debate!

I'm not going into that debate... I ain't Christian so it's up to them to agree about the trinity. It's way too messy for me.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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8/11/2010 9:21:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:00:30 PM, awesomeAlan wrote:
If God created everything, then did he create people who do not believe in God?

...

Well, lets look at your question.

If God created everything, then did He create people who do not believe in God?
kfc
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/11/2010 9:25:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:17:43 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:11:27 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

God sacrificed him. :P Welcome to theology debate!

I'm not going into that debate... I ain't Christian so it's up to them to agree about the trinity. It's way too messy for me.

Eh meant more Penal substitutionary theory than the trinity.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/11/2010 9:26:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:24:24 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
There is far too much tongue-wagging in this thread. :P

ROFL! Just noticed that, lol.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
awesomeAlan
Posts: 11
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8/11/2010 9:28:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I accept the 'free will' as an answer. That is fair enough for me. I myself am not religious and don't know much about this affair and do not wish to become a part of a debate, just answers will do. Answers all assuming that God exists.

Is it fair to say that God does not wish for a perfect world in which there is no war? Who did God create? Was it everyone or just the few that we all descended from? Does God want equality in all people? What is God's role in the world now?
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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8/11/2010 9:31:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:25:02 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:17:43 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:11:27 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

God sacrificed him. :P Welcome to theology debate!

I'm not going into that debate... I ain't Christian so it's up to them to agree about the trinity. It's way too messy for me.

Eh meant more Penal substitutionary theory than the trinity.

Oh, I thought the you meant the trinity since after you posted it, there were the inevitable, "No, God sacrificed him!" and then, "No, he sacrificed himself since he is God!" But I'd definitely debate about the Penal substitutionary theory... A.K.A. "Cosmic Child Abuse"... hehe :P
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/11/2010 9:33:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:31:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:25:02 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:17:43 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:11:27 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

God sacrificed him. :P Welcome to theology debate!

I'm not going into that debate... I ain't Christian so it's up to them to agree about the trinity. It's way too messy for me.

Eh meant more Penal substitutionary theory than the trinity.

Oh, I thought the you meant the trinity since after you posted it, there were the inevitable, "No, God sacrificed him!" and then, "No, he sacrificed himself since he is God!" But I'd definitely debate about the Penal substitutionary theory... A.K.A. "Cosmic Child Abuse"... hehe :P

Yar, my point was that tagging Jesus as a self sacrifice simply kills the whole notion of his purpose to begin with and the whole appeasing grrrr sky man.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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8/11/2010 9:33:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:25:02 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:17:43 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:11:27 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

God sacrificed him. :P Welcome to theology debate!

I'm not going into that debate... I ain't Christian so it's up to them to agree about the trinity. It's way too messy for me.

Eh meant more Penal substitutionary theory than the trinity.

That's not the only theory for atonement. Admittedly it's held by a lot of evangelicals though....
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/11/2010 9:34:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:33:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:25:02 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:17:43 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:11:27 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

God sacrificed him. :P Welcome to theology debate!

I'm not going into that debate... I ain't Christian so it's up to them to agree about the trinity. It's way too messy for me.

Eh meant more Penal substitutionary theory than the trinity.

That's not the only theory for atonement. Admittedly it's held by a lot of evangelicals though....

Yar.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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8/11/2010 9:37:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:33:08 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:31:07 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:25:02 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:17:43 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:11:27 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:07:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
And humans are fallible creatures. He expects our sins... That's why Jesus sacrificed himself.

God sacrificed him. :P Welcome to theology debate!

I'm not going into that debate... I ain't Christian so it's up to them to agree about the trinity. It's way too messy for me.

Eh meant more Penal substitutionary theory than the trinity.

Oh, I thought the you meant the trinity since after you posted it, there were the inevitable, "No, God sacrificed him!" and then, "No, he sacrificed himself since he is God!" But I'd definitely debate about the Penal substitutionary theory... A.K.A. "Cosmic Child Abuse"... hehe :P

Yar, my point was that tagging Jesus as a self sacrifice simply kills the whole notion of his purpose to begin with and the whole appeasing grrrr sky man.

I agree with ya... I'm not Christian though so my agreement is basically worthless. :D
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
RainbowBrite
Posts: 69
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8/11/2010 9:38:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:33:08 PM, Puck wrote:
Yar, my point was that tagging Jesus as a self sacrifice simply kills the whole notion of his purpose to begin with and the whole appeasing grrrr sky man.

Atonement is two-fold, sins of our fathers and sins of our own.

Complete obedience to God in dying a martyr who refused to stop preaching despite persecution, made up for Adam's disobedience and remove the curse of death on Adam's children. For his obedience he took leadership of Israel who can give mercy if we repent of our own sins. Jeremiah 31:29-31. So in all this, he died to save us, but not as a mere whipping-boy.

Free will on the original point.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/11/2010 9:41:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:38:31 PM, RainbowBrite wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:33:08 PM, Puck wrote:
Yar, my point was that tagging Jesus as a self sacrifice simply kills the whole notion of his purpose to begin with and the whole appeasing grrrr sky man.

Atonement is two-fold, sins of our fathers and sins of our own.

Complete obedience to God in dying a martyr who refused to stop preaching despite persecution, made up for Adam's disobedience and remove the curse of death on Adam's children. For his obedience he took leadership of Israel who can give mercy if we repent of our own sins. Jeremiah 31:29-31. So in all this, he died to save us, but not as a mere whipping-boy.

Doesn't address the issue, but ok.
RainbowBrite
Posts: 69
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8/11/2010 9:42:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:41:07 PM, Puck wrote:
Doesn't address the issue, but ok.

I agreed with free will answers on the original question, and offered alternate theories of atonement. Which issue?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/11/2010 9:51:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:42:53 PM, RainbowBrite wrote:
Which issue?

Simply your version is a modified one of satisfaction theory which arises from the same base as penal which is irrelevant to why Jesus was sent. As a self sacrifice it still doesn't fulfill the burden of why Jesus was sent. If Jesus was sent to be sacrificed you have penal, if Jesus was sent and just decided hey I'm going to sacrifice myself because I love you guys then you still need to explain the purpose to begin with i.e. if it's not God's intent to sacrifice Jesus then why is he there? You have either it was accidental in which case God isn't omnipotent or God simply set him up for the fall and taking it simply reverts back to a penal like system.
RainbowBrite
Posts: 69
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8/11/2010 10:10:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 9:51:33 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/11/2010 9:42:53 PM, RainbowBrite wrote:
Which issue?

Simply your version is a modified one of satisfaction theory which arises from the same base as penal which is irrelevant to why Jesus was sent. As a self sacrifice it still doesn't fulfill the burden of why Jesus was sent. If Jesus was sent to be sacrificed you have penal, if Jesus was sent and just decided hey I'm going to sacrifice myself because I love you guys then you still need to explain the purpose to begin with i.e. if it's not God's intent to sacrifice Jesus then why is he there? You have either it was accidental in which case God isn't omnipotent or God simply set him up for the fall and taking it simply reverts back to a penal like system.

The way I see it, as God's Word he is the voice of Torah to Jews, so he had some obligation to show that a regular human could observe it perfectly with help of the Father. In his incarnation he had no special powers to remain sinless, as it says he was tempted in all ways as we are. Therefore he saw to it that no one can accuse the Father of asking Jews to do something impossible, and in that way he also redeemed Torah.

Along the same lines as God's Word he stands to be leader of Israel, which is realized by incarnation as the flesh of David's son, as promised to David. As leader of Israel he was subject to be punished for its sins, innocent or not. Just as a CEO of a company might take the heat wrongdoing of his employees, even if he is innocent himself.

Finally, since he is also judge, he came to warn Jews himself that he was going to take judgment against Israel if Jews did not repent, thus he took matters into his own hands. They didn't like what he said and he went to the cross for it, and he faced it as any man would, having to rely on the Father for faith to see him through it. Without calling angels to save him, or running away.

There are other prophetic reasons I see, but those are some of the more practical ones. After that, atonement for sins of the fathers and sins of our own took place as I explained.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/11/2010 10:15:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
In which case your argument simply becomes an apologetics one for penal substitution - that God was right to accept it, which simply is a non sequitur.
RainbowBrite
Posts: 69
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8/11/2010 10:32:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 10:15:01 PM, Puck wrote:
In which case your argument simply becomes an apologetics one for penal substitution - that God was right to accept it, which simply is a non sequitur.

The other aspect I did not mention is my view that Jesus went to Hades for 3 days to preach to spirits as Peter said. Jesus said it would be as Jonah in the whale which in recalling the story, Jonah repented and God's Word caused the fish to vomit him out.

Thus Jesus also died in part to save people in Hades so they could be released if they repented, as Jonah was released. So there is a bit more to it all than PST in my view, Jesus came to call sinners to repent and if they do, they receive atonement by his mercy. It's not like, Jesus died on the cross and solved all my problems, that is simply part of the process of salvation, not the entire process.