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Joan of Arc : Saint or heretic ?

Amoranemix
Posts: 521
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6/13/2015 8:31:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I recently saw a documentary on Joan of Arc, " 1412 and died 30/5/1431. There was a lot of confusion at the time as to whether she was really a messenger of God or not and I would like to know what God was up to. Why didn't he make it clear who was talking for him and who was an impostor ?

The context was the 100 years war. Here is the first paragraph of a short summary from http://www.history.com... :
The name the Hundred Years" War has been used by historians since the beginning of the nineteenth century to describe the long conflict that pitted the kings and kingdoms of France and England against each other from 1337 to 1453. Two factors lay at the origin of the conflict: first, the status of the duchy of Guyenne (or Aquitaine)-though it belonged to the kings of England, it remained a fief of the French crown, and the kings of England wanted independent possession; second, as the closest relatives of the last direct Capetian king (Charles IV, who had died in 1328), the kings of England from 1337 claimed the crown of France.

When Joan of Arc entered the scene, the French were divided in the Burgundians and the Armagnacs. The former were allied with the English ruled by Henri V. Charles VII of the Armagnacs assumed the role of dauphin " heir to the throne " in 1417 at the age of 14. Here is a map of the situation : http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Here is the introductory paragraph on Joan from Wikipedia :
Joan of Arc (French: Jeanne d'Arc,[4] IPA:"[A8;an da@1;k]; c. 1412[5]"" 30 May 1431), nicknamed "The Maid of Orl"ans" (French: La Pucelle d'Orl"ans), is considered a heroine of France and a Roman Catholic saint. She was born to Jacques d'Arc and Isabelle, a peasant family, at Domr"my in north-east France. Joan said she received visions of the Archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine instructing her to support Charles VII and recover France from English domination late in the Hundred Years' War. The uncrowned King Charles VII sent Joan to the siege of Orl"ans as part of a relief mission. She gained prominence after the siege was lifted in only nine days. Several additional swift victories led to Charles VII's coronation at Reims. This long-awaited event boosted French morale and paved the way for the final French victory.

What were Joan's visions ? According to Wikipedia :
At her trial, Joan stated that she was about nineteen years old, which implies that she thought she was born around 1412. She later testified that she experienced her first vision in 1425 at the age of 13, when she was in her "father's garden"[26] and saw visions of figures she identified as Saint Michael, Saint Catherine, and Saint Margaret, who told her to drive out the English and bring the Dauphin to Reims for his coronation. She said she cried when they left, as they were so beautiful.

In 1429 she managed to convince followers of the dauphin that she was a genuine messenger of God and was escorted to him. This was no easy feat because genuine messengers were hard to distinguish from fake ones. After having seen the dauphin, the ecclesiastical authorities at Poitiers grilled here for three weeks (and verified that she was virgin) and were finally convinced she was probably sent by Heaven to deliver France and have the dauphin crowned in Reims (where French kings are crowned but in English occupied territory in the north). She was given a small force to deliver supplies to Orleans, which was besieged by the English. However she was not given enough troops to break the siege and was left to shout at them from the city walls, getting only verbal abuse back. The ridiculousness of that situation convinced the Armagnacs to send reinforcements and they successfully broke the siege may 8 1429. Joan was wounded, but recovered.

The maid of Orl"ans' reputation was made and she played an important role in the French victory at Patay june 18th (although that she led the French armies is a myth), forcing the English to retreat to Paris. Joan convinced the dauphin to have himself crowned at Reims, now in Burgundian territory and they made it there with a combination of military victories and bluff. This coronation was seen as a fulfillment of divine will. Here is a miniature of it : https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Joan still wanted to boot the English out of France, but the Armagnacs were reticent to give her armies (preferring to negotiate) and the Burgundians wouldn't listen to a peasant maid. She led an attack on Paris, which failed. The question arose whether she still had God's support and the Armagnacs lacked the resources for continued war. She participated in some not so successful skirmishes in 1429 and in 1430 she is kept from battle until she escapes to respond to a call for aid from the city of Compi"gne, where she is captured may 23rd 1430. Believing to have God with her she attempts twice in vain to escape. She is sold to the English november 21st 1430 and placed under the care of bishop Pierre Cauchon.

During the trial that took place from February 21 to may 23 1431 she was accused of heresy. She appeared to be a devout Christian, so it required some work to compose the 78 accusations. The most important were : she dressed as a man, she had left her parents without permission, submission to God's judgement rather than to the ecclesiastical authorities and most importantly, being deceived by the devil. Her visions contained physical appearances of Angels, while allegedly only demons can have physical appearances.

Convinced she would be saved by God, she only recanted the day of her (simulated) execution by fire at the stake. She was promised to be incarcerated by the church. It is possible that afterwards, because she wore female clothes again, she was raped by her guards. Handed to the English and feeling betrayed she relapsed 2 days later and was therefore burned at the stake may 30.

After the war Joan received a retrial and was declared innocent July 7 1456. She was beatified in 1909 and canonized in 1920.

.

Now back to my questions. What was God's plan ? Does he use humans as his messengers ? If not, why does he not say so ? If he does, why does he make it so difficult to distinguish them from impostors ? Why does he even use human messengers ? Joan herself believed she was chosen by God and must have wondered why he had abandoned her. (That reminds of someone else who wondered the same on his crucifix.) Opinions in the world around her, even among experts, varied.
The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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6/13/2015 8:41:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/13/2015 8:31:34 AM, Amoranemix wrote:
I recently saw a documentary on Joan of Arc, " 1412 and died 30/5/1431. There was a lot of confusion at the time as to whether she was really a messenger of God or not and I would like to know what God was up to. Why didn't he make it clear who was talking for him and who was an impostor ?

The context was the 100 years war. Here is the first paragraph of a short summary from http://www.history.com... :
The name the Hundred Years" War has been used by historians since the beginning of the nineteenth century to describe the long conflict that pitted the kings and kingdoms of France and England against each other from 1337 to 1453. Two factors lay at the origin of the conflict: first, the status of the duchy of Guyenne (or Aquitaine)-though it belonged to the kings of England, it remained a fief of the French crown, and the kings of England wanted independent possession; second, as the closest relatives of the last direct Capetian king (Charles IV, who had died in 1328), the kings of England from 1337 claimed the crown of France.

When Joan of Arc entered the scene, the French were divided in the Burgundians and the Armagnacs. The former were allied with the English ruled by Henri V. Charles VII of the Armagnacs assumed the role of dauphin " heir to the throne " in 1417 at the age of 14. Here is a map of the situation : http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Here is the introductory paragraph on Joan from Wikipedia :
Joan of Arc (French: Jeanne d'Arc,[4] IPA:"[A8;an da@1;k]; c. 1412[5]"" 30 May 1431), nicknamed "The Maid of Orl"ans" (French: La Pucelle d'Orl"ans), is considered a heroine of France and a Roman Catholic saint. She was born to Jacques d'Arc and Isabelle, a peasant family, at Domr"my in north-east France. Joan said she received visions of the Archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine instructing her to support Charles VII and recover France from English domination late in the Hundred Years' War. The uncrowned King Charles VII sent Joan to the siege of Orl"ans as part of a relief mission. She gained prominence after the siege was lifted in only nine days. Several additional swift victories led to Charles VII's coronation at Reims. This long-awaited event boosted French morale and paved the way for the final French victory.

What were Joan's visions ? According to Wikipedia :
At her trial, Joan stated that she was about nineteen years old, which implies that she thought she was born around 1412. She later testified that she experienced her first vision in 1425 at the age of 13, when she was in her "father's garden"[26] and saw visions of figures she identified as Saint Michael, Saint Catherine, and Saint Margaret, who told her to drive out the English and bring the Dauphin to Reims for his coronation. She said she cried when they left, as they were so beautiful.

In 1429 she managed to convince followers of the dauphin that she was a genuine messenger of God and was escorted to him. This was no easy feat because genuine messengers were hard to distinguish from fake ones. After having seen the dauphin, the ecclesiastical authorities at Poitiers grilled here for three weeks (and verified that she was virgin) and were finally convinced she was probably sent by Heaven to deliver France and have the dauphin crowned in Reims (where French kings are crowned but in English occupied territory in the north). She was given a small force to deliver supplies to Orleans, which was besieged by the English. However she was not given enough troops to break the siege and was left to shout at them from the city walls, getting only verbal abuse back. The ridiculousness of that situation convinced the Armagnacs to send reinforcements and they successfully broke the siege may 8 1429. Joan was wounded, but recovered.

The maid of Orl"ans' reputation was made and she played an important role in the French victory at Patay june 18th (although that she led the French armies is a myth), forcing the English to retreat to Paris. Joan convinced the dauphin to have himself crowned at Reims, now in Burgundian territory and they made it there with a combination of military victories and bluff. This coronation was seen as a fulfillment of divine will. Here is a miniature of it : https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Joan still wanted to boot the English out of France, but the Armagnacs were reticent to give her armies (preferring to negotiate) and the Burgundians wouldn't listen to a peasant maid. She led an attack on Paris, which failed. The question arose whether she still had God's support and the Armagnacs lacked the resources for continued war. She participated in some not so successful skirmishes in 1429 and in 1430 she is kept from battle until she escapes to respond to a call for aid from the city of Compi"gne, where she is captured may 23rd 1430. Believing to have God with her she attempts twice in vain to escape. She is sold to the English november 21st 1430 and placed under the care of bishop Pierre Cauchon.

During the trial that took place from February 21 to may 23 1431 she was accused of heresy. She appeared to be a devout Christian, so it required some work to compose the 78 accusations. The most important were : she dressed as a man, she had left her parents without permission, submission to God's judgement rather than to the ecclesiastical authorities and most importantly, being deceived by the devil. Her visions contained physical appearances of Angels, while allegedly only demons can have physical appearances.

Convinced she would be saved by God, she only recanted the day of her (simulated) execution by fire at the stake. She was promised to be incarcerated by the church. It is possible that afterwards, because she wore female clothes again, she was raped by her guards. Handed to the English and feeling betrayed she relapsed 2 days later and was therefore burned at the stake may 30.

After the war Joan received a retrial and was declared innocent July 7 1456. She was beatified in 1909 and canonized in 1920.

.

Now back to my questions. What was God's plan ? Does he use humans as his messengers ? If not, why does he not say so ? If he does, why does he make it so difficult to distinguish them from impostors ? Why does he even use human messengers ? Joan herself believed she was chosen by God and must have wondered why he had abandoned her. (That reminds of someone else who wondered the same on his crucifix.) Opinions in the world around her, even among experts, varied.

As no messenger of the deity exists or has existed, anymore than any deity exists, she was kidding herself, just like that banned poster Born of God, LOL!
clay-slayer
Posts: 32
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6/13/2015 8:52:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/13/2015 8:31:34 AM, Amoranemix wrote:
I recently saw a documentary on Joan of Arc, " 1412 and died 30/5/1431. There was a lot of confusion at the time as to whether she was really a messenger of God or not and I would like to know what God was up to. Why didn't he make it clear who was talking for him and who was an impostor ?

The context was the 100 years war. Here is the first paragraph of a short summary from http://www.history.com... :
The name the Hundred Years" War has been used by historians since the beginning of the nineteenth century to describe the long conflict that pitted the kings and kingdoms of France and England against each other from 1337 to 1453. Two factors lay at the origin of the conflict: first, the status of the duchy of Guyenne (or Aquitaine)-though it belonged to the kings of England, it remained a fief of the French crown, and the kings of England wanted independent possession; second, as the closest relatives of the last direct Capetian king (Charles IV, who had died in 1328), the kings of England from 1337 claimed the crown of France.

When Joan of Arc entered the scene, the French were divided in the Burgundians and the Armagnacs. The former were allied with the English ruled by Henri V. Charles VII of the Armagnacs assumed the role of dauphin " heir to the throne " in 1417 at the age of 14. Here is a map of the situation : http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

Here is the introductory paragraph on Joan from Wikipedia :
Joan of Arc (French: Jeanne d'Arc,[4] IPA:"[A8;an da@1;k]; c. 1412[5]"" 30 May 1431), nicknamed "The Maid of Orl"ans" (French: La Pucelle d'Orl"ans), is considered a heroine of France and a Roman Catholic saint. She was born to Jacques d'Arc and Isabelle, a peasant family, at Domr"my in north-east France. Joan said she received visions of the Archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine instructing her to support Charles VII and recover France from English domination late in the Hundred Years' War. The uncrowned King Charles VII sent Joan to the siege of Orl"ans as part of a relief mission. She gained prominence after the siege was lifted in only nine days. Several additional swift victories led to Charles VII's coronation at Reims. This long-awaited event boosted French morale and paved the way for the final French victory.

What were Joan's visions ? According to Wikipedia :
At her trial, Joan stated that she was about nineteen years old, which implies that she thought she was born around 1412. She later testified that she experienced her first vision in 1425 at the age of 13, when she was in her "father's garden"[26] and saw visions of figures she identified as Saint Michael, Saint Catherine, and Saint Margaret, who told her to drive out the English and bring the Dauphin to Reims for his coronation. She said she cried when they left, as they were so beautiful.

In 1429 she managed to convince followers of the dauphin that she was a genuine messenger of God and was escorted to him. This was no easy feat because genuine messengers were hard to distinguish from fake ones. After having seen the dauphin, the ecclesiastical authorities at Poitiers grilled here for three weeks (and verified that she was virgin) and were finally convinced she was probably sent by Heaven to deliver France and have the dauphin crowned in Reims (where French kings are crowned but in English occupied territory in the north). She was given a small force to deliver supplies to Orleans, which was besieged by the English. However she was not given enough troops to break the siege and was left to shout at them from the city walls, getting only verbal abuse back. The ridiculousness of that situation convinced the Armagnacs to send reinforcements and they successfully broke the siege may 8 1429. Joan was wounded, but recovered.

The maid of Orl"ans' reputation was made and she played an important role in the French victory at Patay june 18th (although that she led the French armies is a myth), forcing the English to retreat to Paris. Joan convinced the dauphin to have himself crowned at Reims, now in Burgundian territory and they made it there with a combination of military victories and bluff. This coronation was seen as a fulfillment of divine will. Here is a miniature of it : https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Joan still wanted to boot the English out of France, but the Armagnacs were reticent to give her armies (preferring to negotiate) and the Burgundians wouldn't listen to a peasant maid. She led an attack on Paris, which failed. The question arose whether she still had God's support and the Armagnacs lacked the resources for continued war. She participated in some not so successful skirmishes in 1429 and in 1430 she is kept from battle until she escapes to respond to a call for aid from the city of Compi"gne, where she is captured may 23rd 1430. Believing to have God with her she attempts twice in vain to escape. She is sold to the English november 21st 1430 and placed under the care of bishop Pierre Cauchon.

During the trial that took place from February 21 to may 23 1431 she was accused of heresy. She appeared to be a devout Christian, so it required some work to compose the 78 accusations. The most important were : she dressed as a man, she had left her parents without permission, submission to God's judgement rather than to the ecclesiastical authorities and most importantly, being deceived by the devil. Her visions contained physical appearances of Angels, while allegedly only demons can have physical appearances.

Convinced she would be saved by God, she only recanted the day of her (simulated) execution by fire at the stake. She was promised to be incarcerated by the church. It is possible that afterwards, because she wore female clothes again, she was raped by her guards. Handed to the English and feeling betrayed she relapsed 2 days later and was therefore burned at the stake may 30.

After the war Joan received a retrial and was declared innocent July 7 1456. She was beatified in 1909 and canonized in 1920.

.

Now back to my questions. What was God's plan ? Does he use humans as his messengers ? If not, why does he not say so ? If he does, why does he make it so difficult to distinguish them from impostors ? Why does he even use human messengers ? Joan herself believed she was chosen by God and must have wondered why he had abandoned her. (That reminds of someone else who wondered the same on his crucifix.) Opinions in the world around her, even among experts, varied.

Ever read the bible? this God never spoke to anyone directly, it always sent an Angel to speak for it..

Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. New Living ... Then the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire within a bush.

Gabriel was sent from God to Nazareth. Nazareth was a town in. ... 28 The angel came to her and said, "You are honored very much. (funny thing ) the town of Nazareth was not built until around the 3rd Century)

The angel of the Lord appears to Hagar.

As morning dawned, the angels urged Lot,

And the angel of God spoke unto me in dreams, saying, Jacob:

I find it illogical that an all powerful god would have to use Angels, or Humans to spread its words....And those that say they speak for this god are Delusional..