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Preston
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6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
Preston
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6/19/2015 2:48:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


Oh Failure by the community to respond is a concession by omission.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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6/19/2015 3:35:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


Nowhere in the Bible is it said you need to be baptised to be saved. And he spoke against bad things in the church like hypocrisy and bribery so he couldn't have been wrong.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Philocat
Posts: 728
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6/20/2015 9:19:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Traditionally, many theologians took an 'all-or-nothing' view, where those who are baptised and die absolved from their sins, gain eternal life in heaven. Those who do not are either annihilated or resurrected in limbo - at worst they will go to hell.

Which is a justifiable view on what will happen to people who willingly reject baptism, since it is a willing rejection of God. However, it becomes more problematic with babies and foetuses, who sometimes die without being baptised (through no fault of their own).

In such cases, it is helpful to look at St Thomas Aquinas, who wrote that 'God is not commanded by the sacraments', meaning that ultimately, God will use his infinite wisdom to decide what fate the unbaptised will have. Whether someone has been baptised does not limit the actions that God takes.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/20/2015 5:01:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I think you are confusing Christ with God, Son with Father, as far too many do.

However, death without baptism is only "fatal" to those who have been given the option of baptism into the true faith, and have thereafter rejected it.

Baptism of infants is a waste of time because an infant isn't old enough to make the conscious, informed decision, necessary for baptism to be a valid commitment.
MadCornishBiker
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6/20/2015 5:03:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 3:28:49 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I didn't know that any Christians believed that baptism is necessary for salvation

It is a major step on the road to salvation, yes, but only if undergone in full knowledge of what it represents, and as a conscious, informed choice.

Infant baptism is meaningless.
Preston
Posts: 1,113
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6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
Preston
Posts: 1,113
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6/20/2015 8:29:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 5:01:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I think you are confusing Christ with God, Son with Father, as far too many do.

However, death without baptism is only "fatal" to those who have been given the option of baptism into the true faith, and have thereafter rejected it.

Baptism of infants is a waste of time because an infant isn't old enough to make the conscious, informed decision, necessary for baptism to be a valid commitment.

My assumption is based off the Nicaea creed, which the majority of Christianity conforms to.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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6/20/2015 9:27:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?

Well, we humans condemn ourselves. Everyone who is condemned knowingly chooses their path. As for baptism, although it's the normative way which we are initially justified, it's still possible, although less likely, for someone to enter Heaven without it.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/21/2015 3:18:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 8:29:03 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 5:01:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I think you are confusing Christ with God, Son with Father, as far too many do.

However, death without baptism is only "fatal" to those who have been given the option of baptism into the true faith, and have thereafter rejected it.

Baptism of infants is a waste of time because an infant isn't old enough to make the conscious, informed decision, necessary for baptism to be a valid commitment.

My assumption is based off the Nicaea creed, which the majority of Christianity conforms to.

I assume you mean the Athanasian Creed, which was adopted a couple of decades after the Council of Nicaea, at which any idea of a Trinity was not mentioned once.

In fact the Debate at the Council of Nicaea was to settle the debate about the possible Duality of God and Christ without the inclusion of the holy spirit.

However, when you sat that the majority of Christianity conforms to it, that is in fact one of the main things which proves that they are "Christian" in name only, not in thought, deed, or teaching.

The only thing which makes anyone truly Christian is obedience to the teachings of Jehovah, his son who became the Christ, and the Apostles after him, and the is only one group which fits that description.

M<any people think, and are taught that all that is needed is to profess belief in Christ, and yet scripture tells us that is very far from the truth, including in Jesus own words as recorded at Matthew 7:21-23.

So, first we need to find out what the "will of the father" is, and then put our every effort into doing it, 24/7/365..
Preston
Posts: 1,113
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6/21/2015 4:04:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 3:18:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:29:03 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 5:01:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I think you are confusing Christ with God, Son with Father, as far too many do.

However, death without baptism is only "fatal" to those who have been given the option of baptism into the true faith, and have thereafter rejected it.

Baptism of infants is a waste of time because an infant isn't old enough to make the conscious, informed decision, necessary for baptism to be a valid commitment.

My assumption is based off the Nicaea creed, which the majority of Christianity conforms to.

I assume you mean the Athanasian Creed, which was adopted a couple of decades after the Council of Nicaea, at which any idea of a Trinity was not mentioned once.

No i mean the council of Nicaea, not Athanasian, Nicaea is where the relationship between god and christ was defined, then adopted by Catholicism and spread to several other stemming beliefs.I using the assumption that the majority of DDO would fall in the majority of major christian beliefs am asking this question to.
In fact the Debate at the Council of Nicaea was to settle the debate about the possible Duality of God and Christ without the inclusion of the holy spirit.

That is why i referenced it, would god, when defined by the Nicaea creed goto hell under the belief common to baptism, that it is necessary.
However, when you sat that the majority of Christianity conforms to it, that is in fact one of the main things which proves that they are "Christian" in name only, not in thought, deed, or teaching.


This is a confusing statement... please refine.
The only thing which makes anyone truly Christian is obedience to the teachings of Jehovah, his son who became the Christ, and the Apostles after him, and the is only one group which fits that description.


I see that you are a Jehovah witness then, i don't believe anyone else refers to god as Jehovah by nature.

M<any people think, and are taught that all that is needed is to profess belief in Christ, and yet scripture tells us that is very far from the truth, including in Jesus own words as recorded at Matthew 7:21-23.

Ah interesting, so at this point I assume you are a JW, and thus my next barb is for you, Is it better to never gain a knowledge of god? If a boy from Africa never learns the word jesus, then does he goto hell? if he doesnt, then is it better that he never new god in life so he could never be condemned? And in that case, is proselyting actually condemning individuals?
So, first we need to find out what the "will of the father" is, and then put our every effort into doing it, 24/7/365..
I agree;)
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
Preston
Posts: 1,113
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6/21/2015 4:05:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 9:27:56 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?

Well, we humans condemn ourselves. Everyone who is condemned knowingly chooses their path. As for baptism, although it's the normative way which we are initially justified, it's still possible, although less likely, for someone to enter Heaven without it.

So does an unbaptized individual goto hell? and if they dont, why do we teach and spread gods word? wouldnt it be better to let everyone die without knowledge of god thus keeping them out of hell?
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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6/21/2015 4:28:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 4:05:56 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 9:27:56 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?

Well, we humans condemn ourselves. Everyone who is condemned knowingly chooses their path. As for baptism, although it's the normative way which we are initially justified, it's still possible, although less likely, for someone to enter Heaven without it.

So does an unbaptized individual goto hell?

It's still possible, but less likely. It depends if they have responded to the grace that Go's has given them. The sacraments are the normative way God has established for us to receive salvation, but God is allowed to make exceptions if He chooses. It's not up to me to decide who goes to Heaven.

and if they dont, why do we teach and spread gods word? wouldnt it be better to let everyone die without knowledge of god thus keeping them out of hell?

No, because ignorance is no guarantee of salvation.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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6/21/2015 4:49:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


Proxy baptisms. All will be baptized on behalf of each person by the time the Millennium ends.

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" 1 Cor 15:29
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/21/2015 5:25:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 4:04:22 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/21/2015 3:18:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


I assume you mean the Athanasian Creed, which was adopted a couple of decades after the Council of Nicaea, at which any idea of a Trinity was not mentioned once.

No i mean the council of Nicaea, not Athanasian, Nicaea is where the relationship between god and christ was defined, then adopted by Catholicism and spread to several other stemming beliefs.I using the assumption that the majority of DDO would fall in the majority of major christian beliefs am asking this question to.

Well then you are in error, since the creed that Catholicism is based on is the Athanasian Creed, and as I said, bears no connection to the Council of Nicaea.

In fact the Debate at the Council of Nicaea was to settle the debate about the possible Duality of God and Christ without the inclusion of the holy spirit.

That is why i referenced it, would god, when defined by the Nicaea creed goto hell under the belief common to baptism, that it is necessary.

I am not sure if Hell was even a part of the Apostate teachings at that time to be honest.

However, when you sat that the majority of Christianity conforms to it, that is in fact one of the main things which proves that they are "Christian" in name only, not in thought, deed, or teaching.


This is a confusing statement... please refine.

Just because something is called Christianity, doesn't mean that it really is,.

The only thing which makes anyone truly Christian is obedience to the teachings of Jehovah, his son who became the Christ, and the Apostles after him, and the is only one group which fits that description.


I see that you are a Jehovah witness then, i don't believe anyone else refers to god as Jehovah by nature.

No they don;t, which is why they are all a part of the Apostasy. Jesus made his father's name known as part of his ministry (John 17:6) to the lost sheep of Israel, to draw them back to his father.


M thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am Jehovah.

After quoting them he told us that if we fulfilled both of them we had fulfilled the whole of the law and the prophets.

There are other commands too, which Jesus gave us:

Matthew 28:18-19
ASV(i) 18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:.

He also prayed to his father that all his followers be in complete unity as he and his father were:

John 17:11
ASV(i) 11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

That means complete unity of teaching and of practices, or as Paul later put it:

1 Corinthians 1:10
ASV(i) 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

You will only find that in one place.
Preston
Posts: 1,113
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6/22/2015 8:00:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 5:25:49 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:04:22 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/21/2015 3:18:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


I assume you mean the Athanasian Creed, which was adopted a couple of decades after the Council of Nicaea, at which any idea of a Trinity was not mentioned once.

No i mean the council of Nicaea, not Athanasian, Nicaea is where the relationship between god and christ was defined, then adopted by Catholicism and spread to several other stemming beliefs.I using the assumption that the majority of DDO would fall in the majority of major christian beliefs am asking this question to.

Well then you are in error, since the creed that Catholicism is based on is the Athanasian Creed, and as I said, bears no connection to the Council of Nicaea.

Im not saying Nicaea is the creed of catholicism, it is however where the godhead was defined. you called me out on my error in assuming they are all the same, however the majority of christianity believes they are the same, and thus it is your error not mine in making this assumption. Your faith may not believe the same, mine does not either, but to discuss we must look at the majority.
In fact the Debate at the Council of Nicaea was to settle the debate about the possible Duality of God and Christ without the inclusion of the holy spirit.

That is why i referenced it, would god, when defined by the Nicaea creed goto hell under the belief common to baptism, that it is necessary.

I am not sure if Hell was even a part of the Apostate teachings at that time to be honest.

Peter taught of hell, i doubt that christ was taught of it the way we are. However, beliefs as is today should be applied to any/every situation and stand strong. Thus the challenge.
However, when you sat that the majority of Christianity conforms to it, that is in fact one of the main things which proves that they are "Christian" in name only, not in thought, deed, or teaching.


This is a confusing statement... please refine.

Just because something is called Christianity, doesn't mean that it really is,.

Anything that claims to believe in christ falls under the catagory of christianity, I would debate this with you, because no where anywhere is christianity defined beyond that by god. There is a reason christ never said, unless my people can backflip they be not christian. Because anyone who intends to follow christ is thus christian, even if not correct.
The only thing which makes anyone truly Christian is obedience to the teachings of Jehovah, his son who became the Christ, and the Apostles after him, and the is only one group which fits that description.


I see that you are a Jehovah witness then, i don't believe anyone else refers to god as Jehovah by nature.

No they don;t, which is why they are all a part of the Apostasy. Jesus made his father's name known as part of his ministry (John 17:6) to the lost sheep of Israel, to draw them back to his father.

See but this challenge isn't issued at you nor I, I am mormon, I guess my question for you is this, you proselyte just as my faith, however your faith claims that non-believers are satan's spawn only here to distract you, so why do you proselyte. And yes other JW have called me son of satan, and explained this in context/

M thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am Jehovah.

After quoting them he told us that if we fulfilled both of them we had fulfilled the whole of the law and the prophets.

There are other commands too, which Jesus gave us:

Matthew 28:18-19
ASV(i) 18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:.

He also prayed to his father that all his followers be in complete unity as he and his father were:

John 17:11
ASV(i) 11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

That means complete unity of teaching and of practices, or as Paul later put it:

1 Corinthians 1:10
ASV(i) 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

You will only find that in one place.
Just so you know, your faith differs from mine because we feel you miss authority to perform principal sacraments. You claim authority but have never received it nor have a claim to how you would receive it, this is why i cannot be JW.

Hahaha just to clarify im not arguing anything with you, im asking, since faith varies, what your individual beliefs are :p
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
Preston
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6/22/2015 8:02:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 4:49:26 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


Proxy baptisms. All will be baptized on behalf of each person by the time the Millennium ends.

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" 1 Cor 15:29

Hahaha, and i find a fellow LDS member, i could have guessed off initial response but ur profile did not state it! how ru?
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
Preston
Posts: 1,113
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6/22/2015 8:03:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 4:28:51 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:05:56 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 9:27:56 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?

Well, we humans condemn ourselves. Everyone who is condemned knowingly chooses their path. As for baptism, although it's the normative way which we are initially justified, it's still possible, although less likely, for someone to enter Heaven without it.

So does an unbaptized individual goto hell?

It's still possible, but less likely. It depends if they have responded to the grace that Go's has given them. The sacraments are the normative way God has established for us to receive salvation, but God is allowed to make exceptions if He chooses. It's not up to me to decide who goes to Heaven.

and if they dont, why do we teach and spread gods word? wouldnt it be better to let everyone die without knowledge of god thus keeping them out of hell?

No, because ignorance is no guarantee of salvation.

But there is no risk to them until you teach them, else all the people before christ are condemned and all the children who never knew christ.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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6/22/2015 8:57:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 8:03:40 AM, Preston wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:28:51 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:05:56 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 9:27:56 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?

Well, we humans condemn ourselves. Everyone who is condemned knowingly chooses their path. As for baptism, although it's the normative way which we are initially justified, it's still possible, although less likely, for someone to enter Heaven without it.

So does an unbaptized individual goto hell?

It's still possible, but less likely. It depends if they have responded to the grace that Go's has given them. The sacraments are the normative way God has established for us to receive salvation, but God is allowed to make exceptions if He chooses. It's not up to me to decide who goes to Heaven.

and if they dont, why do we teach and spread gods word? wouldnt it be better to let everyone die without knowledge of god thus keeping them out of hell?

No, because ignorance is no guarantee of salvation.

But there is no risk to them until you teach them, else all the people before christ are condemned and all the children who never knew christ.

That's not true at all. Everyone who ever lived was responsible for responding to the grace that God has given them. If they knowingly resisted it, they may very well be in Hell. Informing someone of the way they are supposed to live can only help. It cannot hurt them. Going to Hell is a choice for every single person who ever lived . Those who never heard of Christ aren't automatically guaranteed anything.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Preston
Posts: 1,113
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6/22/2015 9:08:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 8:57:26 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/22/2015 8:03:40 AM, Preston wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:28:51 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:05:56 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 9:27:56 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?

Well, we humans condemn ourselves. Everyone who is condemned knowingly chooses their path. As for baptism, although it's the normative way which we are initially justified, it's still possible, although less likely, for someone to enter Heaven without it.

So does an unbaptized individual goto hell?

It's still possible, but less likely. It depends if they have responded to the grace that Go's has given them. The sacraments are the normative way God has established for us to receive salvation, but God is allowed to make exceptions if He chooses. It's not up to me to decide who goes to Heaven.

and if they dont, why do we teach and spread gods word? wouldnt it be better to let everyone die without knowledge of god thus keeping them out of hell?

No, because ignorance is no guarantee of salvation.

But there is no risk to them until you teach them, else all the people before christ are condemned and all the children who never knew christ.

That's not true at all. Everyone who ever lived was responsible for responding to the grace that God has given them. If they knowingly resisted it, they may very well be in Hell. Informing someone of the way they are supposed to live can only help. It cannot hurt them. Going to Hell is a choice for every single person who ever lived . Those who never heard of Christ aren't automatically guaranteed anything.

So if a man who grows up in eastern asia, in an area untouched by christianity, he goes to hell because he was untaught? If this is the god you believe in then? my faith does not support this.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
Dogknox
Posts: 5,078
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6/22/2015 9:23:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 3:35:08 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


Nowhere in the Bible is it said you need to be baptised to be saved. And he spoke against bad things in the church like hypocrisy and bribery so he couldn't have been wrong.

Iredia Good to meet you..
I reply to your words... Nowhere in the Bible is it said you need to be baptised to be saved.
Simply.. "You are wrong!"
You NEED to be baptized to enter the kingdom!!
Dogknox
Posts: 5,078
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6/22/2015 9:26:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 9:08:46 AM, Preston wrote:
At 6/22/2015 8:57:26 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/22/2015 8:03:40 AM, Preston wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:28:51 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:05:56 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 9:27:56 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?

Well, we humans condemn ourselves. Everyone who is condemned knowingly chooses their path. As for baptism, although it's the normative way which we are initially justified, it's still possible, although less likely, for someone to enter Heaven without it.

So does an unbaptized individual goto hell?

It's still possible, but less likely. It depends if they have responded to the grace that Go's has given them. The sacraments are the normative way God has established for us to receive salvation, but God is allowed to make exceptions if He chooses. It's not up to me to decide who goes to Heaven.

and if they dont, why do we teach and spread gods word? wouldnt it be better to let everyone die without knowledge of god thus keeping them out of hell?

No, because ignorance is no guarantee of salvation.

But there is no risk to them until you teach them, else all the people before christ are condemned and all the children who never knew christ.

That's not true at all. Everyone who ever lived was responsible for responding to the grace that God has given them. If they knowingly resisted it, they may very well be in Hell. Informing someone of the way they are supposed to live can only help. It cannot hurt them. Going to Hell is a choice for every single person who ever lived . Those who never heard of Christ aren't automatically guaranteed anything.

So if a man who grows up in eastern asia, in an area untouched by christianity, he goes to hell because he was untaught? If this is the god you believe in then? my faith does not support this.

Preston Good to meet you..
I reply.. You are mixed up!

You need to be baptized to enter the kingdom.. IF you are NOT God' child you do not enter!
Adams Children are NOT God'! You need to be "ADDED" to the body of Jesus.. His only Son, to be able to call God: Father!
Preston
Posts: 1,113
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6/22/2015 9:30:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 9:26:49 AM, Dogknox wrote:
Preston Good to meet you..
I reply.. You are mixed up!

You need to be baptized to enter the kingdom.. IF you are NOT God' child you do not enter!
Adams Children are NOT God'! You need to be "ADDED" to the body of Jesus.. His only Son, to be able to call God: Father!

nice to meet you too, i'm an instigator ;)
haha what?

so you condemn everyone before christ who is unbaptised and everyone who never had a chance of ever experiencing the love of god? I guess ultimately it comes down to gods love for his creations:

If you believe god loves us:
-Then why would god condemn the majority of his children who had no chance

If you believe god hates us:
-Then why did he send his son who he obviously loved critically

Please pick one and explain ;)
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/22/2015 9:44:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 8:03:40 AM, Preston wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:28:51 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:05:56 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 9:27:56 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?

Well, we humans condemn ourselves. Everyone who is condemned knowingly chooses their path. As for baptism, although it's the normative way which we are initially justified, it's still possible, although less likely, for someone to enter Heaven without it.

So does an unbaptized individual goto hell?

It's still possible, but less likely. It depends if they have responded to the grace that Go's has given them. The sacraments are the normative way God has established for us to receive salvation, but God is allowed to make exceptions if He chooses. It's not up to me to decide who goes to Heaven.

and if they dont, why do we teach and spread gods word? wouldnt it be better to let everyone die without knowledge of god thus keeping them out of hell?

No, because ignorance is no guarantee of salvation.

But there is no risk to them until you teach them, else all the people before Christ are condemned and all the children who never knew Christ.

Those who never had the chance to know the truth will learn it in the resurrection, and have their chance to choose in knowledge.

Many are being given that opportunity today through the work Jesus has given his servants, the JWs to carry out on his behalf.
Preston
Posts: 1,113
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6/22/2015 9:46:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 9:44:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 8:03:40 AM, Preston wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:28:51 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:05:56 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 9:27:56 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?

Well, we humans condemn ourselves. Everyone who is condemned knowingly chooses their path. As for baptism, although it's the normative way which we are initially justified, it's still possible, although less likely, for someone to enter Heaven without it.

So does an unbaptized individual goto hell?

It's still possible, but less likely. It depends if they have responded to the grace that Go's has given them. The sacraments are the normative way God has established for us to receive salvation, but God is allowed to make exceptions if He chooses. It's not up to me to decide who goes to Heaven.

and if they dont, why do we teach and spread gods word? wouldnt it be better to let everyone die without knowledge of god thus keeping them out of hell?

No, because ignorance is no guarantee of salvation.

But there is no risk to them until you teach them, else all the people before Christ are condemned and all the children who never knew Christ.

Those who never had the chance to know the truth will learn it in the resurrection, and have their chance to choose in knowledge.

Many are being given that opportunity today through the work Jesus has given his servants, the JWs to carry out on his behalf.

So why teach now? isnt it easier to turn a man away rather then god himself when you are brought back from the dead?? I feel like if someone brings me back and then tells me they are god i wouldn't doubt it. Doesnt this increase the # of condemned?
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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6/22/2015 10:29:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 9:08:46 AM, Preston wrote:
At 6/22/2015 8:57:26 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/22/2015 8:03:40 AM, Preston wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:28:51 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:05:56 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 9:27:56 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?

Well, we humans condemn ourselves. Everyone who is condemned knowingly chooses their path. As for baptism, although it's the normative way which we are initially justified, it's still possible, although less likely, for someone to enter Heaven without it.

So does an unbaptized individual goto hell?

It's still possible, but less likely. It depends if they have responded to the grace that Go's has given them. The sacraments are the normative way God has established for us to receive salvation, but God is allowed to make exceptions if He chooses. It's not up to me to decide who goes to Heaven.

and if they dont, why do we teach and spread gods word? wouldnt it be better to let everyone die without knowledge of god thus keeping them out of hell?

No, because ignorance is no guarantee of salvation.

But there is no risk to them until you teach them, else all the people before christ are condemned and all the children who never knew christ.

That's not true at all. Everyone who ever lived was responsible for responding to the grace that God has given them. If they knowingly resisted it, they may very well be in Hell. Informing someone of the way they are supposed to live can only help. It cannot hurt them. Going to Hell is a choice for every single person who ever lived . Those who never heard of Christ aren't automatically guaranteed anything.

So if a man who grows up in eastern asia, in an area untouched by christianity, he goes to hell because he was untaught? If this is the god you believe in then? my faith does not support this.

I never said any such thing. Let's try again. The man in se Asia has been given some amount of grace by God regardless of his knowledge of the. normative ways to heaven. God has tried to reach him in some way. If that.man responds affirmatively to the grace, he may go to heaven. If not, he may go to Hell. Either way, hr cannot say his place in eternity is unjust.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Preston
Posts: 1,113
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6/22/2015 10:32:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 10:29:23 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/22/2015 9:08:46 AM, Preston wrote:
At 6/22/2015 8:57:26 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/22/2015 8:03:40 AM, Preston wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:28:51 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:05:56 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 9:27:56 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:28:00 PM, Preston wrote:
At 6/20/2015 8:41:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


I don't necessarily believe everyone who doesn't get baptized goes to Hell, but let's suppose I do. Your question is still illogical. Baptism wasn't established as normatively necessary until Jesus was baptized. So, since it hadn't been established when He was a child, no one was under the necessity of baptism yet.

Does this mean that jesus condemns those who wont be baptised?

Well, we humans condemn ourselves. Everyone who is condemned knowingly chooses their path. As for baptism, although it's the normative way which we are initially justified, it's still possible, although less likely, for someone to enter Heaven without it.

So does an unbaptized individual goto hell?

It's still possible, but less likely. It depends if they have responded to the grace that Go's has given them. The sacraments are the normative way God has established for us to receive salvation, but God is allowed to make exceptions if He chooses. It's not up to me to decide who goes to Heaven.

and if they dont, why do we teach and spread gods word? wouldnt it be better to let everyone die without knowledge of god thus keeping them out of hell?

No, because ignorance is no guarantee of salvation.

But there is no risk to them until you teach them, else all the people before christ are condemned and all the children who never knew christ.

That's not true at all. Everyone who ever lived was responsible for responding to the grace that God has given them. If they knowingly resisted it, they may very well be in Hell. Informing someone of the way they are supposed to live can only help. It cannot hurt them. Going to Hell is a choice for every single person who ever lived . Those who never heard of Christ aren't automatically guaranteed anything.

So if a man who grows up in eastern asia, in an area untouched by christianity, he goes to hell because he was untaught? If this is the god you believe in then? my faith does not support this.

I never said any such thing. Let's try again. The man in se Asia has been given some amount of grace by God regardless of his knowledge of the. normative ways to heaven. God has tried to reach him in some way. If that.man responds affirmatively to the grace, he may go to heaven. If not, he may go to Hell. Either way, hr cannot say his place in eternity is unjust.

no i don't think you get what im saying, IF GOD NEVER REACHES HIM, he lives alone on a remote island, tarsan style, without any jane, will he go to heaven?
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." - George Carlin
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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6/22/2015 10:40:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 8:02:05 AM, Preston wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:49:26 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 6/19/2015 1:45:28 PM, Preston wrote:
So the purpose of this is to question religios faith, this Challenge will be issued to those who believe death without baptism is condemnation.

Q. God gave us the ability to chose, so some men decided to kill christ as a child, And god allowed it ,when he was speaking against the church as a youth, would he have gone to hell? he hadn't been baptised. Does that mean god would go to hell??


Now Discuss, I will post Challenge 2 next week on Friday, if you would like to submit a challenge PM me.


Proxy baptisms. All will be baptized on behalf of each person by the time the Millennium ends.

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" 1 Cor 15:29

Hahaha, and i find a fellow LDS member, i could have guessed off initial response but ur profile did not state it!

I thought I might as well lol. There's a couple more LDS members on here that I know of, but not too many on this site.

how ru?

Doin' just dandy.