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The Dragon in My Garage

Saint_of_Me
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6/20/2015 12:55:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Most of you are probably familiar with this old example by Carl Sagan that shows TWO things. ONE..how absurd the Theists' claim for God is. And SECOND..how hard it is to disprove something that anybody can simply invent in their little heads.

Here is that Gem of a Fable for your enjoyment. I invite Atheists and Agnostics to chime-in on how they can relate to this ridiculous reasoning they seem from fundies.

And as always...I truly invite ANY christians to explain how their claim for Yahweh is different or in any way has more logic or veracity to it than does Carl Sagan's Dragon.

Here we go.............

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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6/20/2015 2:52:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 12:55:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Most of you are probably familiar with this old example by Carl Sagan that shows TWO things. ONE..how absurd the Theists' claim for God is. And SECOND..how hard it is to disprove something that anybody can simply invent in their little heads.

Here is that Gem of a Fable for your enjoyment. I invite Atheists and Agnostics to chime-in on how they can relate to this ridiculous reasoning they seem from fundies.

And as always...I truly invite ANY christians to explain how their claim for Yahweh is different or in any way has more logic or veracity to it than does Carl Sagan's Dragon.


Here we go.............

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

The difference pin head, is that you don't believe what you just wrote and none of us need to account for it. No body is claiming anything irrational when discussing God sir, sorry your mind won't permit reasoning and basic human comprehension.

Christianity is simple as it deals with the spiritual nature of life and our existence and if you don't want to acknowledge a spiritual existence then buzz off, no one is forcing you to hang around and debate something you think amounts to believing a dragon is in your garage.

The real problem that exists is that atheists are rejecting anything of a spiritual nature, using science as a means to justify their ignorance. Science my friend has nothing to say about God or His existence that is simply the atheist mind set injecting additional assertions.
When we want to debate dragons we will visit the fantasy forum, until then stay on topic.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/20/2015 2:59:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 2:52:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 6/20/2015 12:55:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Most of you are probably familiar with this old example by Carl Sagan that shows TWO things. ONE..how absurd the Theists' claim for God is. And SECOND..how hard it is to disprove something that anybody can simply invent in their little heads.

Here is that Gem of a Fable for your enjoyment. I invite Atheists and Agnostics to chime-in on how they can relate to this ridiculous reasoning they seem from fundies.

And as always...I truly invite ANY christians to explain how their claim for Yahweh is different or in any way has more logic or veracity to it than does Carl Sagan's Dragon.


Here we go.............

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

The difference pin head, is that you don't believe what you just wrote and none of us need to account for it. No body is claiming anything irrational when discussing God sir, sorry your mind won't permit reasoning and basic human comprehension.

Christianity is simple as it deals with the spiritual nature of life and our existence and if you don't want to acknowledge a spiritual existence then buzz off, no one is forcing you to hang around and debate something you think amounts to believing a dragon is in your garage.

The real problem that exists is that atheists are rejecting anything of a spiritual nature, using science as a means to justify their ignorance. Science my friend has nothing to say about God or His existence that is simply the atheist mind set injecting additional assertions.
When we want to debate dragons we will visit the fantasy forum, until then stay on topic.

You are comfusing spirituality with religion.

There is a vast difference.

I for example, am an Agnostic. An Atheist--in that I vehemtly deny the existence of a personal, Abrahmic-type god. Like the murderous Yahweh, for example.

But...I am very spiritual. One of the most spiritual people I know. I would love for you to tell me sometime what you think being spiritual is.

I rail against the biblical literalists who advocate the murderous deeds of Yahweh. ANd those who deny science. (I bet ya did not know that science can be spiritual? Especially when it comes to admiring an feeling a part of all things in nature. Of which, science delves and can explain.

And once again, there is no need for your god in my equations. Or my spiriutality.

The Dragon in the garage. Who says nobody believes it? LOL. Maybe I do.

I have one.

Prove me wrong.

And there you now know how us people of logic and science feel when trying to enlighten deluded Theists.

Thanks for the ad hominem, by the way.

Good sir.

Drew.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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6/20/2015 3:29:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm a dragon in my home. Our astrological Sign in the heavens is Draco, there side by side with Taurowet's constellation as a dragon protecting its treasure, the Torah. I breath fire every day while smoking my sacrament that enhances spiritual consciousness. You too can be fire breathing dragons and find more spiritual understanding with the proper sacrament which is no longer alcohol for Christians, but Mary's and John's herb.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/20/2015 3:42:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 3:29:58 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
I'm a dragon in my home. Our astrological Sign in the heavens is Draco, there side by side with Taurowet's constellation as a dragon protecting its treasure, the Torah. I breath fire every day while smoking my sacrament that enhances spiritual consciousness. You too can be fire breathing dragons and find more spiritual understanding with the proper sacrament which is no longer alcohol for Christians, but Mary's and John's herb.

Upstanding point, sir!

This is pretty much what the religious fundamentalists do.

And indeed, I give equal veracity to your claim as I do to theirs regarding a personal god like Yahweh, or a physically resurrected Jewish carpenter from 2000 years ago!

LOL..good job, amigo.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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6/20/2015 4:20:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 2:59:33 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/20/2015 2:52:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 6/20/2015 12:55:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Most of you are probably familiar with this old example by Carl Sagan that shows TWO things. ONE..how absurd the Theists' claim for God is. And SECOND..how hard it is to disprove something that anybody can simply invent in their little heads.

Here is that Gem of a Fable for your enjoyment. I invite Atheists and Agnostics to chime-in on how they can relate to this ridiculous reasoning they seem from fundies.

And as always...I truly invite ANY christians to explain how their claim for Yahweh is different or in any way has more logic or veracity to it than does Carl Sagan's Dragon.


Here we go.............

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

The difference pin head, is that you don't believe what you just wrote and none of us need to account for it. No body is claiming anything irrational when discussing God sir, sorry your mind won't permit reasoning and basic human comprehension.

Christianity is simple as it deals with the spiritual nature of life and our existence and if you don't want to acknowledge a spiritual existence then buzz off, no one is forcing you to hang around and debate something you think amounts to believing a dragon is in your garage.

The real problem that exists is that atheists are rejecting anything of a spiritual nature, using science as a means to justify their ignorance. Science my friend has nothing to say about God or His existence that is simply the atheist mind set injecting additional assertions.
When we want to debate dragons we will visit the fantasy forum, until then stay on topic.

You are comfusing spirituality with religion.

There is a vast difference.

I for example, am an Agnostic. An Atheist--in that I vehemtly deny the existence of a personal, Abrahmic-type god. Like the murderous Yahweh, for example.

But...I am very spiritual. One of the most spiritual people I know. I would love for you to tell me sometime what you think being spiritual is.

I rail against the biblical literalists who advocate the murderous deeds of Yahweh. ANd those who deny science. (I bet ya did not know that science can be spiritual? Especially when it comes to admiring an feeling a part of all things in nature. Of which, science delves and can explain.

And once again, there is no need for your god in my equations. Or my spiriutality.

The Dragon in the garage. Who says nobody believes it? LOL. Maybe I do.

I have one.

Prove me wrong.

And there you now know how us people of logic and science feel when trying to enlighten deluded Theists.

Thanks for the ad hominem, by the way.

Good sir.

Drew.

You will get plenty of ad homs as long as you post insulting ignorant topics devoid of any real intellect. I know your kind of people love and relish yourselves in double standards, you mock believers then cry when we stand our ground. Typical secular behavior towards theists. (Notice he calls us "deluded" after he mocks us in his OP).

Christianity (in case you didn't notice) IS spirituality, Drew. You know darn well Jesus taught spiritual reality and spiritual principles. Don't pretend Jesus never believed in a spiritual existence and a spiritual God either, spirituality within Christianity simply means the pursuit of God in our life and abiding in that light. Christianity is not a religious label rather a spiritual lifestyle, it is applying and observing and represents a commitment to the Father, the Creator.
"Spirituality" can mean many things for many people (depending on their beliefs) but spirituality in Christianity is specific, not vague. It outlines and frames its spiritual make up without much confusion or error, the framework of its spiritual reality is unmistakably unique and precise.

You can pretend to have some form of "spirituality" as an atheist but you are just fooling yourself lol, you have nothing of any real substance, for you it is just some word, some vague word at that.
I think the majority of us can put aside religious establishments and see the spirituality in what Jesus taught easily, I do not peddle religion so that is out of my view of what is truth and what is the reality of the gospel.
Abiding in God and walking in spirit is the core of what Jesus taught, and that is what spirituality is in this context.
Spirit= non material/immaterial being or existence. Anything related to or in relation to the spiritual......God, heaven, angels, visions, prophesies, miracles, prayer, revelation, discernment ect..

In Christianity you have an entire spiritual existence with a God who is Spirit by nature. Spiritual Beings or entities are anything that inhabits the spirit realm or operates therein. Anything of the afterlife or its inhabitants is of "spirit" or spiritual. That is what I refer to in any case of spiritual topic. I don't use the term "spirit" to mean "essence" or feeling lol, that is not what I mean. When I reference spirit, I am referring to literal place, beings, communication, things and realm, all literal and all there and observable when this flesh body dies. (Or even in this body for that matter).
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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6/20/2015 7:42:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 2:52:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 6/20/2015 12:55:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Most of you are probably familiar with this old example by Carl Sagan that shows TWO things. ONE..how absurd the Theists' claim for God is. And SECOND..how hard it is to disprove something that anybody can simply invent in their little heads.

Here is that Gem of a Fable for your enjoyment. I invite Atheists and Agnostics to chime-in on how they can relate to this ridiculous reasoning they seem from fundies.

And as always...I truly invite ANY christians to explain how their claim for Yahweh is different or in any way has more logic or veracity to it than does Carl Sagan's Dragon.


Here we go.............

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

The difference pin head, is that you don't believe what you just wrote and none of us need to account for it. No body is claiming anything irrational when discussing God sir, sorry your mind won't permit reasoning and basic human comprehension.

Christianity is simple as it deals with the spiritual nature of life and our existence and if you don't want to acknowledge a spiritual existence then buzz off, no one is forcing you to hang around and debate something you think amounts to believing a dragon is in your garage.

The real problem that exists is that atheists are rejecting anything of a spiritual nature, using science as a means to justify their ignorance. Science my friend has nothing to say about God or His existence that is simply the atheist mind set injecting additional assertions.
When we want to debate dragons we will visit the fantasy forum, until then stay on topic.

Do you honestly not get the fundamental point here eternal ?

It's about how when examining some proposition how all excuses you can make up in order to save the proposition from being falsified (that means being proven false)

So when confronted with such objections in the dragon example notice all the excuses, it's invisible, it's flying, it's heatless, etc etc to make such a dragon compatible with evidence or lack of.

Of course at some point it's going to cross your mind that there is no dragon, or at least there probably is not, on account of all the excuses you need to get around the various objections to save it from being proven false.

But hey at least the dragon advocate can say, hey you can't prove that it doesn't exist ?

I am sure you could understand if some one would think in reply, no f*cking sh&t, you have so many excuses to make the dragon in your garage beyond falsification since you can just come up with excuse after excuse after excuse........

Some people form the same view on "God". Excuse after excuse after excuse...........

But hey you can't prove that God doesn't exist ? can ya you stupid stupid atheists.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Skyangel
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6/20/2015 9:38:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 12:55:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.
........etc ......
Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

It all depends on how you define and use the words Dragon and Garage and whether you are talking about something that everyone can see or only about something you see in your own imagination.
If it is something visible to all, only the blind would have trouble seeing it.
If it is invisible to all but you, due to being something you see in your minds eye, then you are obviously the only one who can see it unless you explain to others that they also need to imagine it and then they will also see it in their mind.
The things humans see in the mind/ imagination exist in the mind/imagination.

The difference between an imaginary dragon and none at all is that you can create the imaginary one to look like whatever you want it to look like. If none at all existed, you would have no word or definition for it. If you cannot define or describe something, how can you even imagine it in the first place?

The dragon might be an idiom for a scary fiery character. A garage may be an idiom for any parking space where you park your passions, ideas, imaginations or fiery attitudes.

Why do people immediately jump to the conclusions that the word dragon refers to a physical animal, fictional or not?

Humans are fire breathing and fire eating creatures. You see many of them with smoke coming from their mouths and nostrils much of the time. That is literal smoke as well as metaphoric smoke and fire coming from various orifices on their bodies.
Real or imaginary the fire breathers and smokers exist in reality as well as in fantasy.

If you claim something invisible exists in your mind ( the garage, where you park your imaginations) and can describe what it looks like, I have no reason to believe it does not exist in your imagination.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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6/21/2015 2:24:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 12:55:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

How it is known that it is she and not he? :)

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

Actually your dragon is irrelevant. I am not interested about it.

I think we have evidence for Bible God, this world and the Bible and that things happen as the Bible tells.
Otokage
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6/21/2015 2:36:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The sad thing here is that there's people claiming that the dragon does not exist because nobody believes in it, but God exists because a lot of people believes in it... This is how witch trials started in the Middle Ages lol
Saint_of_Me
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6/21/2015 4:21:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 2:24:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/20/2015 12:55:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

How it is known that it is she and not he? :)

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

Actually your dragon is irrelevant. I am not interested about it.

I think we have evidence for Bible God, this world and the Bible and that things happen as the Bible tells.

Then by all means provide some of that evidence!

Or are you simply going to make your outlandish claim and not provide any proof for it, and then plug your ears whenever you hear a learned Agnostic pose the absurdity of your god, and say, as a child would, "Nah nah nah..I cannot hear you! What I say has to be true because my bible says so!"

Which is pretty much what you guys always do.

But maybe you will surprise me?

We'll see.

LOL
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Fly
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6/21/2015 9:22:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There is good reason why the Bible states "Thou shalt not test The Lord thy God" and "Blessed is he who believes without seeing."

It raises extreme gullibility to the status of a supreme virtue. A loss of faith is no tragedy when faith ceases to hold any value...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Saint_of_Me
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6/21/2015 9:53:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 9:22:49 PM, Fly wrote:
There is good reason why the Bible states "Thou shalt not test The Lord thy God" and "Blessed is he who believes without seeing."

It raises extreme gullibility to the status of a supreme virtue. A loss of faith is no tragedy when faith ceases to hold any value...

Yes!

I could not have said it better myself!

Thanks.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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6/22/2015 3:28:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 4:21:12 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/21/2015 2:24:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
I think we have evidence for Bible God, this world and the Bible and that things happen as the Bible tells.

Then by all means provide some of that evidence!

One example of things going like the Bible tells is the Jews. It is said in the bible that Jews will be scattered among nations. And it is said that they will be gathered back.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

That happened a long time ago.

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

And that is happening at the moment and was started when the Israel was founded again.

Now you may claim that it is coincidence. I can"t believe that. But the truth is, Bible is correct and knew amazingly well what will happen. I don"t believe Jews as nation could have lasted all the persecution and hate, if God has not protected them.
Saint_of_Me
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6/22/2015 3:36:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 3:28:34 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:21:12 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/21/2015 2:24:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
I think we have evidence for Bible God, this world and the Bible and that things happen as the Bible tells.

Then by all means provide some of that evidence!

One example of things going like the Bible tells is the Jews. It is said in the bible that Jews will be scattered among nations. And it is said that they will be gathered back.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

That happened a long time ago.

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

And that is happening at the moment and was started when the Israel was founded again.

Now you may claim that it is coincidence. I can"t believe that. But the truth is, Bible is correct and knew amazingly well what will happen. I don"t believe Jews as nation could have lasted all the persecution and hate, if God has not protected them.

That is not proof. Nor is it a coincidence.

It is just simply one example of many. For, throughout the history of Man. most one-time indigenous peoples have been scattered from their original homelands. And then some return.

The return of some Jews--by no means, all, mind you--to Israel in 1948 was only because the UN declared it an official State, in the wake of the mass persecution and murder of Jews during the WWII Holocaust. I would dare say that is a political and not a biblical or divine occurrence.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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6/22/2015 3:39:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 3:28:34 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:21:12 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/21/2015 2:24:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
I think we have evidence for Bible God, this world and the Bible and that things happen as the Bible tells.

Then by all means provide some of that evidence!

One example of things going like the Bible tells is the Jews. It is said in the bible that Jews will be scattered among nations. And it is said that they will be gathered back.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

That happened a long time ago.

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

And that is happening at the moment and was started when the Israel was founded again.

Now you may claim that it is coincidence. I can"t believe that. But the truth is, Bible is correct and knew amazingly well what will happen. I don"t believe Jews as nation could have lasted all the persecution and hate, if God has not protected them.

So....the ONE prophecy you say was fulfilled? Well, I addressed that in my previous post and think I did a pretty good job of explaining how it being divinely-inspired is at-best questionable.

Now...we will proceed to a long long list of all those biblical prophecies that DID NOT get fulfilled.

Enjoy.............http://rationalwiki.org...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Double_R
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6/22/2015 7:15:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 2:52:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
The real problem that exists is that atheists are rejecting anything of a spiritual nature, using science as a means to justify their ignorance.

Please distinguish between this spiritual nature you speak of, and a delusion.
12_13
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6/23/2015 3:49:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 3:39:41 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Now...we will proceed to a long long list of all those biblical prophecies that DID NOT get fulfilled.

Enjoy.............http://rationalwiki.org...

Thanks. Sorry, I think that is pathetic attempt. It seems to me that writer of that doesn"t even understand the meaning of "shall be desolate forty years".

Maybe you should bring your best unfulfilled prophesy argument to this debate and we can see do you have something meaningful.
12_13
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6/23/2015 3:50:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 3:36:52 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
It is just simply one example of many. For, throughout the history of Man. most one-time indigenous peoples have been scattered from their original homelands. And then some return.

Could you give some example?
Saint_of_Me
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6/23/2015 4:00:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/23/2015 3:50:08 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/22/2015 3:36:52 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
It is just simply one example of many. For, throughout the history of Man. most one-time indigenous peoples have been scattered from their original homelands. And then some return.

Could you give some example?

I will give you dozens............

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
12_13
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6/24/2015 3:51:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/23/2015 4:00:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
I will give you dozens............

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Thank you! And now could you give some that was predicted over thousand years before it happened?
Saint_of_Me
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6/24/2015 12:50:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 3:51:48 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/23/2015 4:00:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
I will give you dozens............

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Thank you! And now could you give some that was predicted over thousand years before it happened?

LOL----you just don't get it.

BTW: Are you really 35?

Really? The obvious cognitive dissonance you continually display in your post causew me to think you are a dope-smoking 17 year-old.

Anyway..yeah, bro....I gave you that list like you asked. IN fact I gave you MORE than you asked since you only wanted ONE example. So I give you dozens and dozens.

Propagandized 1000 years before they happen? LOL...my point is that Diasporas are AO COMMON that anybody could predict them. Because MOST peoples experience them! There is NOTHING unique about the plight of the Hebrews. Including their whole fictitious Yahweh. He is merely another example of an oppressed peoples' need to create a fictional BFF sky god to make them feel better about the fact they are getting their collective butts kicked every day. Or are being enslaved. (also very common).

That diaspora quote you think is prophecy is merely like so many of those fuzzy and nebulous passages from people like Nostradamus. They are SOO incredibly vague and non-specific that can be interpreted in different ways. Or they are mundane that they fit many many people.

Now...if i your Old Testament somebody said "In 1948 a world organization called the UN will create a state for the dispersed Jewish peoples. They will call this state 'Israel': ...well, I might be more impressed.

But like so many things in the bible..most of it in fact. I am unpressed not in the least with the passages you provide. And any attempt to claim them as proof as prophecy is laughable.

Thanks!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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6/24/2015 1:45:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 12:50:28 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/24/2015 3:51:48 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/23/2015 4:00:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
I will give you dozens............

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Thank you! And now could you give some that was predicted over thousand years before it happened?

LOL----you just don't get it.

BTW: Are you really 35?

Really? The obvious cognitive dissonance you continually display in your post lead me to think you are a dope-smoking 17 year-old.

Anyway..yeah, bro....I gave you that list like you asked. IN fact I gave you MORE than you asked since you only wanted ONE example. So I give you dozens and dozens.

Propagandized 1000 years before they happen? LOL...my point is that Diasporas are SO COMMON that anybody could "predict" them. Because MOST peoples experience them! There is NOTHING unique about the plight of the Hebrews. Including their whole fictitious Yahweh. He is merely another example of an oppressed peoples' need to create a fictional BFF sky god to make them feel better about the fact they are getting their collective butts kicked every day. Or are being enslaved. (also very common).

That diaspora quote you think is prophecy is merely like so many of those fuzzy and nebulous passages from people like Nostradamus. They are SOO incredibly vague and non-specific that can be interpreted in different ways. Or they are mundane that they fit many many people.

Now...if i your Old Testament somebody said "In 1948 a world organization called the UN will create a state for the dispersed Jewish peoples. They will call this state 'Israel': ...well, I might be more impressed.

But like so many things in the bible..most of it in fact. I am unpressed not in the least with the passages you provide. And any attempt to claim them as proof as prophecy is laughable.

Thanks!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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6/24/2015 1:52:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 7:42:57 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 6/20/2015 2:52:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 6/20/2015 12:55:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Most of you are probably familiar with this old example by Carl Sagan that shows TWO things. ONE..how absurd the Theists' claim for God is. And SECOND..how hard it is to disprove something that anybody can simply invent in their little heads.

Here is that Gem of a Fable for your enjoyment. I invite Atheists and Agnostics to chime-in on how they can relate to this ridiculous reasoning they seem from fundies.

And as always...I truly invite ANY christians to explain how their claim for Yahweh is different or in any way has more logic or veracity to it than does Carl Sagan's Dragon.


Here we go.............

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

The difference pin head, is that you don't believe what you just wrote and none of us need to account for it. No body is claiming anything irrational when discussing God sir, sorry your mind won't permit reasoning and basic human comprehension.

Christianity is simple as it deals with the spiritual nature of life and our existence and if you don't want to acknowledge a spiritual existence then buzz off, no one is forcing you to hang around and debate something you think amounts to believing a dragon is in your garage.

The real problem that exists is that atheists are rejecting anything of a spiritual nature, using science as a means to justify their ignorance. Science my friend has nothing to say about God or His existence that is simply the atheist mind set injecting additional assertions.
When we want to debate dragons we will visit the fantasy forum, until then stay on topic.

Do you honestly not get the fundamental point here eternal ?

It's about how when examining some proposition how all excuses you can make up in order to save the proposition from being falsified (that means being proven false)

So when confronted with such objections in the dragon example notice all the excuses, it's invisible, it's flying, it's heatless, etc etc to make such a dragon compatible with evidence or lack of.

Of course at some point it's going to cross your mind that there is no dragon, or at least there probably is not, on account of all the excuses you need to get around the various objections to save it from being proven false.

But hey at least the dragon advocate can say, hey you can't prove that it doesn't exist ?

I am sure you could understand if some one would think in reply, no f*cking sh&t, you have so many excuses to make the dragon in your garage beyond falsification since you can just come up with excuse after excuse after excuse........

Some people form the same view on "God". Excuse after excuse after excuse...........

But hey you can't prove that God doesn't exist ? can ya you stupid stupid atheists.

Great response to Eternal's Cognitive Dissonance.

You succeeded in explaining exactly what the point of Dr. Sagan's Dragon Fable was. Insofar as how the continual excuse after excuse after excuse of the Believers for their relentless "non-proof" of god frustrate us Atheists. So this fable simply goes to show how easy it is to claim anything exists! Even if it is in your head--like God. And how difficult it is to dis-prove.

Thanks again.
Drew.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/24/2015 4:09:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 12:55:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Most of you are probably familiar with this old example by Carl Sagan that shows TWO things. ONE..how absurd the Theists' claim for God is. And SECOND..how hard it is to disprove something that anybody can simply invent in their little heads.

Here is that Gem of a Fable for your enjoyment. I invite Atheists and Agnostics to chime-in on how they can relate to this ridiculous reasoning they seem from fundies.

And as always...I truly invite ANY christians to explain how their claim for Yahweh is different or in any way has more logic or veracity to it than does Carl Sagan's Dragon.


Here we go.............

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

Very cool. He can come over and hang with the leprechaun (invisible, of course) living under a toadstool in my back yard that will grant wishes if you believe in him enough and ask him in just the right way.
Saint_of_Me
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6/24/2015 4:13:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 4:09:19 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/20/2015 12:55:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Most of you are probably familiar with this old example by Carl Sagan that shows TWO things. ONE..how absurd the Theists' claim for God is. And SECOND..how hard it is to disprove something that anybody can simply invent in their little heads.

Here is that Gem of a Fable for your enjoyment. I invite Atheists and Agnostics to chime-in on how they can relate to this ridiculous reasoning they seem from fundies.

And as always...I truly invite ANY christians to explain how their claim for Yahweh is different or in any way has more logic or veracity to it than does Carl Sagan's Dragon.


Here we go.............

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

Very cool. He can come over and hang with the leprechaun (invisible, of course) living under a toadstool in my back yard that will grant wishes if you believe in him enough and ask him in just the right way.

LOL....exactly!

And all those things you just mentioned? What do they have in common with God?

Yep...none of 'em exist.

thanks.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.