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Doesn't salvation have selfish motives?

Benshapiro
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6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/21/2015 1:14:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Salvation has no motives at all. It is a process of someone or something saving another from danger or destruction.
It is simply survival instinct to try to save yourself from danger or destruction and has nothing to do with a belief or lack of belief in a supernatural entity.
Wanting to save others from danger and destruction also has nothing to do with religious belief or selfishness. It is simply an inbuilt survival instinct and when it is about one person saving another from something the motive is not selfish at all.

Saving and being saved is instinctive regardless of what fictional characters save others or get saved from whatever fictional dangers the stories create.
ironslippers
Posts: 513
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6/21/2015 1:26:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

Service to thy lord is NEVER selfish, The reason why people go to hell is lack of service to the God.

It sound paradoxical to me.
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
E2D2
Posts: 156
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6/21/2015 8:12:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish? : :

It's a selfish ambition by religious groups who think that heaven and hell are places to go to. They don't understand what heaven and earth mean.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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6/21/2015 9:47:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 1:26:18 AM, ironslippers wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

Service to thy lord is NEVER selfish, The reason why people go to hell is lack of service to the God.

It sound paradoxical to me.

If that were true, what an evil b*stard the deity would be!
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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6/21/2015 9:49:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

It's self-interested, but I don't see how it's selfish. Most of what we do is self-interested. I don't see a problem with that. Do you?

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

I don't see any reason to think it's selfish unless we're seeking salvation at the expense of other people. Maybe you're confusing selfishness and self-interest.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Benshapiro
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6/21/2015 9:59:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 9:49:23 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

It's self-interested, but I don't see how it's selfish. Most of what we do is self-interested. I don't see a problem with that. Do you?

Selfish was probably the wrong term to use because it's not "at the expense of others". Although, it seems that selflessness is a common theme throughout religious doctrine and the incentive to go to Heaven or avoid Hell is solely for oneself.

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

I don't see any reason to think it's selfish unless we're seeking salvation at the expense of other people. Maybe you're confusing selfishness and self-interest.

True
philochristos
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6/21/2015 10:27:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 9:59:31 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 9:49:23 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

It's self-interested, but I don't see how it's selfish. Most of what we do is self-interested. I don't see a problem with that. Do you?

Selfish was probably the wrong term to use because it's not "at the expense of others". Although, it seems that selflessness is a common theme throughout religious doctrine and the incentive to go to Heaven or avoid Hell is solely for oneself.

Do you think there's anything wrong with doing something solely for oneself?
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Benshapiro
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6/21/2015 10:35:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:27:13 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/21/2015 9:59:31 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 9:49:23 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

It's self-interested, but I don't see how it's selfish. Most of what we do is self-interested. I don't see a problem with that. Do you?

Selfish was probably the wrong term to use because it's not "at the expense of others". Although, it seems that selflessness is a common theme throughout religious doctrine and the incentive to go to Heaven or avoid Hell is solely for oneself.

Do you think there's anything wrong with doing something solely for oneself?

No, but it's greater (in terms of selflessness and love) to do something for someone else rather than oneself. Religious doctrine teaches themes of selflessness and love. It just shifts the focus away from others and to oneself.
12_13
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6/21/2015 2:18:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

I think it doesn"t work by selfish motives, because eternal life is for righteous and righteous wants and good truth and right, because those are good things. If person does right things just to gain eternal life, he is probably not righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
Arasa
Posts: 380
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6/23/2015 5:59:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

Hello, Benshapiro! Thank you for asking the question that makes young Christians hit the proverbial wall face first.

In a word: no.
In many words: If your heart's goal is to love God, then you will live forever. If your heart's goal is to live forever, you will surely die. Part of being a Christian is placing that love for God above all else. If you are so concerned about your life, then how frugal will you be with it? If you value your life more than anything else, then how can you live under threat of persecution? How can you stand defiantly in front of someone who would surely kill you and say "To all who would hear it, I love my God" if you value your life more than you love God?

It's a perplexing issue to consider, but I am glad you've voiced it for those who cannot.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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6/24/2015 10:08:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

It's only selfish if one begins to project that onto others, telling them they are going to hell if they don't accept Jesus and salvation.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
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Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepticalone
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6/24/2015 11:31:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 9:59:31 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 9:49:23 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

It's self-interested, but I don't see how it's selfish. Most of what we do is self-interested. I don't see a problem with that. Do you?

Selfish was probably the wrong term to use because it's not "at the expense of others". Although, it seems that selflessness is a common theme throughout religious doctrine and the incentive to go to Heaven or avoid Hell is solely for oneself.

Selfish is an appropriate adjective since the salvation is said to come at the expense of the suffering of Jesus.

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

I don't see any reason to think it's selfish unless we're seeking salvation at the expense of other people. Maybe you're confusing selfishness and self-interest.

True
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Accipiter
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6/25/2015 1:18:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

Yes, religion has a long history of egocentric beliefs and ideas.

The earth was believed to be the center of the universe and was created for the benefit of man by god.

Man himself was made in gods image, you can't get closer to being a little god then that.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/25/2015 2:05:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

It's certainly a conflict of interest induced by bribes and threats, Ben. If morality is worth pursuing, it's surely worth pursuing without such inducements. On the other hand, if it's not worth pursuing, then pursuing it for inducements is either corruption or hypocrisy.

An individual Christian may not be affected by this, since he or she may be pure in motive, but non-Christian perception of Christian morality is certainly affected. It's hard to respect the morality of a faith that:

a) offers wild metaphysical inducements to its followers, often without great regard for how they act;
b) offers some of the harshest threats in theology to nonbelievers, often despite them acting morally;
c) asserts it is the sole legitimate source of moral authority in the world; yet nevertheless
d) encourages adherence to ancient and ignorant moral codes, while failing to update its theology on better empirical insight.

It's easy to conclude that such belief is a great breeding ground for ignorance, religious nationalism, xenophobia and hypocrisy, but not for better compassion, courage or insight. There are many non-Christians of good-will -- both secular and sectarian -- appalled by it.
Sooner
Posts: 1,012
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7/11/2015 3:59:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
First off, I'm not religious.
I don't calculate salvation as "selfish". If you thought you had truely recieved salvation but chose to not share this supernatural gift with others, perhaps that would be selfish.
As for Heaven and Hell, if you read the Bible for yourself thoroughly, what exactly they are is up for debate. Some Christians think of these concepts as a state of being and not neccessarily as actual places. For example heaven is a state of comfort, safety, bliss, euphoria, peace, contentment, mercy, forgiveness, and the like. Some people literally think it's a real kingdom possibly in another dimension or unseen to us here on Earth. And hell would be the opposite staye of being, or a physical place.
For those who believe Hell is a place, the interpretations of its characteristics vary far and wide. Some take its Biblical description literally and some symbolically. Some believe it exists but that only Satan, his angels, the antichrist, and those who take the mark of the beast find their way.
The concept gets sticky in this way. Jesus talked about measures. For example, By the measure you are merciful, so shall God show mercy unto you." ,"By the measure you forgive, so shall you be forgiven." This suggests different results by varying degress for different people. In Revelation it speaks of people with different crown with different numbers of jewels representing different things. This implies degrees of reward based on God's observation or judgement. Does this indicate different degrees of punishment? Possibly.
And then the kicker. Some do not believe any humans go to any such place called Hell. They believe God's entire plan revolved around teaching, refining, and lifting up any grains of love, light, and internal beauty built up on the Earth since creation. Essentially he has no desire to inflict pain, suffering, or darkness on humanity for eternity. These exist for a appropriate time to refine us, teaching respect, appreciation, and love. Some believe the idea of Hell as many depict it, was brought forth to explain to humanity that God has a choice. He is not required to give you eternal euphoria and bliss. Darkness and pain do have place in reality, are a destination option for Him, but despite that option, he has been gracious enough to give you the better option or perhaps the option to disallow your existance at all. One verse says,"...the one that can destroy your soul..." to destroy to me means in this context, to rid it from existance.
I digress.
Back to main topic. In my opinion, seeking salvation is not a selfish act. There is no intentional hurting of another person. Biblical salvation to me would be reaching your hand up for help, an act of humility, and a recieving of anothers helping hand reaching down to save your life. If I were drowning and accepted a lifeguards attempt to get me safely out of the water, for me to allow him to get me to safety, in my opinion, would simply be an appreciation and value of my life.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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7/11/2015 5:49:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:59:10 AM, Sooner wrote:
First off, I'm not religious.
I don't calculate salvation as "selfish". If you thought you had truely recieved salvation but chose to not share this supernatural gift with others, perhaps that would be selfish.
As for Heaven and Hell, if you read the Bible for yourself thoroughly, what exactly they are is up for debate. Some Christians think of these concepts as a state of being and not neccessarily as actual places. For example heaven is a state of comfort, safety, bliss, euphoria, peace, contentment, mercy, forgiveness, and the like. Some people literally think it's a real kingdom possibly in another dimension or unseen to us here on Earth. And hell would be the opposite staye of being, or a physical place.
For those who believe Hell is a place, the interpretations of its characteristics vary far and wide. Some take its Biblical description literally and some symbolically. Some believe it exists but that only Satan, his angels, the antichrist, and those who take the mark of the beast find their way.
The concept gets sticky in this way. Jesus talked about measures. For example, By the measure you are merciful, so shall God show mercy unto you." ,"By the measure you forgive, so shall you be forgiven." This suggests different results by varying degress for different people. In Revelation it speaks of people with different crown with different numbers of jewels representing different things. This implies degrees of reward based on God's observation or judgement. Does this indicate different degrees of punishment? Possibly.
And then the kicker. Some do not believe any humans go to any such place called Hell. They believe God's entire plan revolved around teaching, refining, and lifting up any grains of love, light, and internal beauty built up on the Earth since creation. Essentially he has no desire to inflict pain, suffering, or darkness on humanity for eternity. These exist for a appropriate time to refine us, teaching respect, appreciation, and love. Some believe the idea of Hell as many depict it, was brought forth to explain to humanity that God has a choice. He is not required to give you eternal euphoria and bliss. Darkness and pain do have place in reality, are a destination option for Him, but despite that option, he has been gracious enough to give you the better option or perhaps the option to disallow your existance at all. One verse says,"...the one that can destroy your soul..." to destroy to me means in this context, to rid it from existance.
I digress.
Back to main topic. In my opinion, seeking salvation is not a selfish act. There is no intentional hurting of another person. Biblical salvation to me would be reaching your hand up for help, an act of humility, and a recieving of anothers helping hand reaching down to save your life. If I were drowning and accepted a lifeguards attempt to get me safely out of the water, for me to allow him to get me to safety, in my opinion, would simply be an appreciation and value of my life.

Of course you are religious, your post proves that!
Sooner
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7/11/2015 8:04:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Not actually. The topic was based on the Biblical version of salvation. If salvation, in the Biblical since, were offered to me by a God standing in front of me face to face, that we can't prove exists or doesn't exist, and he came to me offering it, telling me I will be saved from a prison like Hell for eternity and get to live in a place of euphoria, bliss, peace, happiness, and beauty for eternity, whether I were religious or not, sure, I'd take what was behind door #1. Torture and sadness OR peace and happiness? Hmmm.... this a tough one.(sarcasm)
You don't have to be religious to state what you would do if faced with a, maybe fictional, maybe factional religious situation.
Back to point. Choosing door #1 is not selfish.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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7/11/2015 8:47:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

Absolutely. However, that is the motivation some people need to focus their minds on Truth.

If your beliefs and mind state are not in line with reality, you will suffer greatly for it. You will live in hell. It is God's way of telling you that you are doing something wrong.

If your beliefs and mind state are in line with reality, you find inner peace, and you will live in heaven. It is God's way of telling you that you are on the right path.

Find heaven in this world, and you will have it in the next.

To realize your true nature and your relationship to God is how you find heaven. Truth is Lord over All!
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Saint_of_Me
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7/11/2015 8:53:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

Sure it is.

Self-preservation is one of the key, primary, hard-wired instincts that we homo sapiens have used in order to outlast all of our competitors thorughout out 200,000 year history.

(I am going back to the beginning of the homo sapien sub-species of the genus homo. Some antrhopoligsts claim that our earliest common ancestor was much further back, going back some 7 million years to Australopithecus afarensis.)

Anyway, yeah, baby: self-preservation. hardwired. We could not disavow ourselves of this primal instinct if we tried.

Therefore, since religion is obviously man-made. (An undesirable by-product of the evolved mind, like superstitions, which are all merely psychological defense mechanisms, most of its tenets will have self-preservation at its core.)

Self-preservation indeed might be one of the very very few ideas of religion that actually has any semblance of logic to it!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Sooner
Posts: 1,012
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7/11/2015 10:53:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 8:53:46 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:15:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Heaven is believed to be a place of eternal bliss. By receiving salvation, you'll gain entry into Heaven. So basically people believe that they are going to be rewarded with eternal bliss by receiving salvation. So, isn't that a selfish incentive?

On the other extreme, Hell is believed to be a place of eternal torture. If you don't receive salvation, you'll go to hell. You need salvation to save your sorry asss. Either way, isn't the incentive selfish?

Sure it is.

Self-preservation is one of the key, primary, hard-wired instincts that we homo sapiens have used in order to outlast all of our competitors thorughout out 200,000 year history.

(I am going back to the beginning of the homo sapien sub-species of the genus homo. Some antrhopoligsts claim that our earliest common ancestor was much further back, going back some 7 million years to Australopithecus afarensis.)

Anyway, yeah, baby: self-preservation. hardwired. We could not disavow ourselves of this primal instinct if we tried.

Therefore, since religion is obviously man-made. (An undesirable by-product of the evolved mind, like superstitions, which are all merely psychological defense mechanisms, most of its tenets will have self-preservation at its core.)

Self-preservation indeed might be one of the very very few ideas of religion that actually has any semblance of logic to it!

When I was younger, I smoked meth. I felt peace beyond imagination. I felt so peaceful that I wrote beautiful, complex music, painted awesome paintings that I sold, and wrote some of the best poetry that I've ever written. This must have been the time when I was on my path. This was when I felt the most inner peace in my entire life. I suppose God was smiling on me during this time.
-On the other side, I later quit drugs as I got older. I got in a life changing car wreck where the car flipped multiple times going down a steep hill for about 300-400 feet. At some point, my car came to a dead hault after going head on with a large tree. Once I realized I was still alive, I started checking my body to make sure everything was still in tact. At first I actually was not sure I had all my body parts. At a complete stop, I observed every piece of glass in my car was gone from windows, windshield, backglass, and even mirrors. The top of my car was smashed in. The drivers side door of my car was smashed in. Tree branches were sticking through my windows. It was a hellish looking mess. As I observed these things, torential rain poured in on me. After checking out the scene, I realized there were a number of things that should have killed me in that crash. I'm sure you get the idea and can invision the scene.
Since that day, I have horrible, grueling, unbearable headaches most of the time. It constantly feels like my head is literally being crushed into my shoulders. My neck and back deliver shots of unbearable, pulsing pain throughout my body. I was diagnosed with whiplash, my left shoulder was out of place, my right shoulder blade was cracked, and I suffered spinal damage and some internal bleeding, not to mention having 2 teeth knocked out when my face made contact with the inside of the vehicle. I hurt. I would wish this pain on anyone. The pain and rehabilitation has been torture. Unless you have experienced pain like this, even your worst nightmares will not give you even mild insight into the gravity and level of this pain. To put it bluntly, I feel like I am being tortured. I can't get up without feeling like I'm going to pass out. I feel winded and drained after only moments of trying to do small tasks. Doctors have me on so many medications that my cabinet looks like a pharmacy. I do not do illegal drugs. I meditate daily. I eat healthy, and I take vitamins. I drink more than plenty of enough water. I take hot baths constantly. I go through physical therapy and have a professional masseuse tend to me every few days.
I digress.
I feel absolutely no peace, no joy, no comfort of any kind, and it's because my relentless, unforgiving, torturing pain makes it impossible to feel these things. I'm the most moral, merciful, forgiving, understanding, kind, and giving than I have ever been in my entire life. Since I feel "no peace", I must be headed down the "wrong path". So because of my pain and lack of inner peace, God will thrust me into Hell? Wow.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
Sooner
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7/11/2015 11:03:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The above post was in response to the below post:

Absolutely. However, that is the motivation some people need to focus their minds on Truth.

If your beliefs and mind state are not in line with reality, you will suffer greatly for it. You will live in hell. It is God's way of telling you that you are doing something wrong.

If your beliefs and mind state are in line with reality, you find inner peace, and you will live in heaven. It is God's way of telling you that you are on the right path.

Find heaven in this world, and you will have it in the next.

To realize your true nature and your relationship to God is how you find heaven. Truth is Lord over All!
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
Saint_of_Me
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7/11/2015 11:13:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 11:03:38 PM, Sooner wrote:
The above post was in response to the below post:

Absolutely. However, that is the motivation some people need to focus their minds on Truth.

If your beliefs and mind state are not in line with reality, you will suffer greatly for it. You will live in hell. It is God's way of telling you that you are doing something wrong.

If your beliefs and mind state are in line with reality, you find inner peace, and you will live in heaven. It is God's way of telling you that you are on the right path.

Find heaven in this world, and you will have it in the next.

To realize your true nature and your relationship to God is how you find heaven. Truth is Lord over All!

Working in the mental health field, as I do, which includes working a lot with former alcohol and drug addicts, I have found it very common for those of them in recovery to "find God."

Which is fine, if that works for them and helps them stay clean.

I consider it a form of self-medication.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
j50wells
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7/12/2015 5:30:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I agree Ben. As the sage will say, you can't be spiritual and wise until you get past the point of getting something for your spiritual endeavors. You can't get to the deepest of yourself if you are looking for a reward.
Don't get me wrong. I like money and women and leisure just like everyone else. But I would never use spirituality to get these things. My spirituality is for me. It means nothing to anyone else and shouldn't. It is my privacy and deepest aspect of my male being. In that male being you will find my biologic urges to hunt, gather, befriend, mate, and rest. That's really what's at the very bottom of most men. I don't need a heavenly religion to tell me about that.
j50wells
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7/12/2015 5:33:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 1:14:25 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Salvation has no motives at all. It is a process of someone or something saving another from danger or destruction.
It is simply survival instinct to try to save yourself from danger or destruction and has nothing to do with a belief or lack of belief in a supernatural entity.
Wanting to save others from danger and destruction also has nothing to do with religious belief or selfishness. It is simply an inbuilt survival instinct and when it is about one person saving another from something the motive is not selfish at all.

Saving and being saved is instinctive regardless of what fictional characters save others or get saved from whatever fictional dangers the stories create.

Where do you get danger and destruction? Destruction from what? It is not an in-built survival instinct. Yeah, we have the instinct to save someone who is clinging to a tree in a flash-flood, but that has nothing to do with spirituality. Even animals will protect their families to the death. What do you think mother grizzly bears are doing when they kill a human? They are protecting their cubs. Natural biology. Don't know how God comes into this.
Skyangel
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7/12/2015 5:57:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 5:33:57 PM, j50wells wrote:
At 6/21/2015 1:14:25 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Salvation has no motives at all. It is a process of someone or something saving another from danger or destruction.
It is simply survival instinct to try to save yourself from danger or destruction and has nothing to do with a belief or lack of belief in a supernatural entity.
Wanting to save others from danger and destruction also has nothing to do with religious belief or selfishness. It is simply an inbuilt survival instinct and when it is about one person saving another from something the motive is not selfish at all.

Saving and being saved is instinctive regardless of what fictional characters save others or get saved from whatever fictional dangers the stories create.

Where do you get danger and destruction? Destruction from what? It is not an in-built survival instinct. Yeah, we have the instinct to save someone who is clinging to a tree in a flash-flood, but that has nothing to do with spirituality. Even animals will protect their families to the death. What do you think mother grizzly bears are doing when they kill a human? They are protecting their cubs. Natural biology. Don't know how God comes into this.

God has nothing to do with it.
Nature creates destruction as well as renewal.
Opposites exist in reality. That's simply the way things are.
Superstitious humans of the past thought natural disasters were created by angry gods because humans were not pleasing the gods. Those humans thought that pleasing gods would stop natural disasters from happening and created stories about belief in gods and obeying gods saving them from death and natural disasters.

Those stories have been handed down through the generations and the gullible still believe them.
j50wells
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7/16/2015 5:45:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I have pondered on these same things myself, even when I was a Christian. It does seem disingenuous to try to be moral and compassionate when the whole reason for doing so is the please a God in heaven who's explosive rage could send you plummeting into a fiery abyss, there to burn in screaming anguish for all time. Anyone who believes this would go to great lengths to make sure they were obeying the precepts and desires of that God, especially if they believed it with all of their heart.
The heavenly reward of getting to sit with Jesus on his throne at the right hand of the Father is also a driving force that helps people commit random acts of kindness and beauty, again, if they believe it with all of their heart.
While there may be a sense of morality and kindness within a Christian's heart for doing service for their King, that morality always hinges on a pretense of rewards and punishments, which doesn't always lead to a higher understanding of morality.
Morality and kindness should be taught, but without rewards and punishments. The understanding or morals and judgments and kindness can only be realized when they are understood for what they are and why they are practiced. This understanding is what leads to wisdom. Rewards and punishments can never lead to wisdom.