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Reality is too information-rich

Benshapiro
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6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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6/21/2015 12:36:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

As a bit of a gamer myself my understanding they can "code" alot more to the real world than you would have us believe.

The problem isn't so much "code" it's the processing power needed as more calculations requires more processing power to compute those calculations.


So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

Maybe all of what we call reality is the output of some sort of computer running a program full of calculations...........or maybe you have wrongly attributed something to the natural world which is not the case.

Either way......................COMPUTERS !!!
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
dee-em
Posts: 6,472
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6/21/2015 2:54:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

You seem to be making a highly subjective judgement about just how information-rich the universe should be. How are you arriving at your conclusion and what is the threshold at which the universe would not require an intelligent creator? I am genuinely curious as to how you have formulated your calculations. What models are you using?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/21/2015 3:49:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Water has specified properties of:

You are equivocating between specified & specific. This entire post is thus a non sequitir.

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Yes... no.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

+1 on Deem's post. How did you calculate this magic number of "too much information for naturalism".
tejretics
Posts: 6,089
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6/21/2015 4:32:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

(1) Who decides the level of x being too information-rich to be a product of mindless origins? This is subjective.

(2) "Information rich stuff" can be generated by things other than minds
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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6/21/2015 9:34:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

The universe, right after the Big Bang was an ocean of electromagnetic energy, there was no water or anything else other than that. Hence, your post needs clarifying.

1). Are you referring to the time after the Big Bang where the electromagnetic energy became all the elements now present in the universe?

2). Are you referring to the time before the Big Bang where originated the electromagnetic energy?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
E2D2
Posts: 156
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6/21/2015 9:39:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins. ::

God has a much better computer game going than any of his created people who still believe they are real.
E2D2
Posts: 156
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6/21/2015 9:42:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 12:36:50 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

As a bit of a gamer myself my understanding they can "code" alot more to the real world than you would have us believe.

The problem isn't so much "code" it's the processing power needed as more calculations requires more processing power to compute those calculations.


So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

Maybe all of what we call reality is the output of some sort of computer running a program full of calculations...........or maybe you have wrongly attributed something to the natural world which is not the case.

Either way......................COMPUTERS !!! : :

Our reality is built through code called waves. Many physicists are beginning to understand this today.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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6/21/2015 9:57:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 9:42:48 AM, E2D2 wrote:
Our reality is built through code called waves. Many physicists are beginning to understand this today.

Bog? Is that you?
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Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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6/21/2015 10:03:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 2:54:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

You seem to be making a highly subjective judgement about just how information-rich the universe should be. How are you arriving at your conclusion and what is the threshold at which the universe would not require an intelligent creator? I am genuinely curious as to how you have formulated your calculations. What models are you using?

Indeed, it is a highly subjective argument.

Intuitively,

P1: If the universe has mindless origins, it should not contain a significant amount of information.

P2: The universe contains a significant amount of information.

C: The universe did not have mindless origins.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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6/21/2015 10:05:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 3:49:02 AM, Envisage wrote:
Water has specified properties of:

You are equivocating between specified & specific. This entire post is thus a non sequitir.

Specific works fine.

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Yes... no.

Why yes and no?

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

+1 on Deem's post. How did you calculate this magic number of "too much information for naturalism".

It's an intuitive argument, so although it is highly subjective, it should be true that if the universe had mindless origins it should not contain a significant amount of information.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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6/21/2015 10:08:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 9:42:48 AM, E2D2 wrote:
At 6/21/2015 12:36:50 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

As a bit of a gamer myself my understanding they can "code" alot more to the real world than you would have us believe.

The problem isn't so much "code" it's the processing power needed as more calculations requires more processing power to compute those calculations.


So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

Maybe all of what we call reality is the output of some sort of computer running a program full of calculations...........or maybe you have wrongly attributed something to the natural world which is not the case.

Either way......................COMPUTERS !!! : :

Our reality is built through code called waves. Many physicists are beginning to understand this today.

Oh jeez. Not even trying to hide this time?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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6/21/2015 10:11:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 4:32:35 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

(1) Who decides the level of x being too information-rich to be a product of mindless origins? This is subjective.

It's subjective but intuitive. It isn't provable, but seems logical nonetheless.

(2) "Information rich stuff" can be generated by things other than minds

I don't agree. I'm talking about the nature of reality (the "graphics", amount of properties of things, etc.).
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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6/21/2015 10:13:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 9:34:48 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

The universe, right after the Big Bang was an ocean of electromagnetic energy, there was no water or anything else other than that. Hence, your post needs clarifying.

1). Are you referring to the time after the Big Bang where the electromagnetic energy became all the elements now present in the universe?

Yes.

2). Are you referring to the time before the Big Bang where originated the electromagnetic energy?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/21/2015 10:26:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:05:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 3:49:02 AM, Envisage wrote:
Water has specified properties of:

You are equivocating between specified & specific. This entire post is thus a non sequitir.

Specific works fine.

Then your entire argument is a non sequitir.

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Yes... no.

Why yes and no?

Sorry, typo.

"Yeah.... no."

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

+1 on Deem's post. How did you calculate this magic number of "too much information for naturalism".

It's an intuitive argument, so although it is highly subjective, it should be true that if the universe had mindless origins it should not contain a significant amount of information.

Intuition is not an argument, it is not even evidence. Come back with something more substantive. Also specific =/= information. Acttualy you should giive your definition of information first, as this is yet another nebulous term which gets thrown around. And every time I use the information theorist definition, it virtually always renders such arguments as equivocations.
Envisage
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6/21/2015 10:27:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
P1: If the universe has mindless origins, it should not contain a significant amount of information.

Good luck ever proving P1 with any level of confidence, ever.

P2: The universe contains a significant amount of information.

Define "information".

C: The universe did not have mindless origins.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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6/21/2015 10:41:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:26:11 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 10:05:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 3:49:02 AM, Envisage wrote:
Water has specified properties of:

You are equivocating between specified & specific. This entire post is thus a non sequitir.

Specific works fine.

Then your entire argument is a non sequitir.

All I'm showing is that the natural properties of things contain a significant amount of information.

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Yes... no.

Why yes and no?

Sorry, typo.

"Yeah.... no."

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

+1 on Deem's post. How did you calculate this magic number of "too much information for naturalism".

It's an intuitive argument, so although it is highly subjective, it should be true that if the universe had mindless origins it should not contain a significant amount of information.

Intuition is not an argument, it is not even evidence.

Why can't intuition be used as evidence? Our justice system uses it all the time.

Come back with something more substantive. Also specific =/= information. Acttualy you should giive your definition of information first, as this is yet another nebulous term which gets thrown around. And every time I use the information theorist definition, it virtually always renders such arguments as equivocations.

Information, in this sense, basically means potential knowledge of a thing.
Benshapiro
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6/21/2015 10:46:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:27:16 AM, Envisage wrote:
P1: If the universe has mindless origins, it should not contain a significant amount of information.

Good luck ever proving P1 with any level of confidence, ever.

Let's consider the opposite: a reality with mindless origins should (or does) contain a significant amount of information.

P2: The universe contains a significant amount of information.

Define "information".

Information is defined as the potential knowledge of something.

C: The universe did not have mindless origins.
Envisage
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6/21/2015 10:47:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:41:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 10:26:11 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 10:05:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 3:49:02 AM, Envisage wrote:
Water has specified properties of:

You are equivocating between specified & specific. This entire post is thus a non sequitir.

Specific works fine.

Then your entire argument is a non sequitir.

All I'm showing is that the natural properties of things contain a significant amount of information.

Specific is descriptive. Specified is prescriptive. You are attributing information to the order of something, it is not something it "possesses" as an "essence".

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Yes... no.

Why yes and no?

Sorry, typo.

"Yeah.... no."

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

+1 on Deem's post. How did you calculate this magic number of "too much information for naturalism".

It's an intuitive argument, so although it is highly subjective, it should be true that if the universe had mindless origins it should not contain a significant amount of information.

Intuition is not an argument, it is not even evidence.

Why can't intuition be used as evidence? Our justice system uses it all the time.

Then our justice system's use of intuition (especially for things outside out everyday conception/experience) is BS. Intuition is demonstrably an approximation tool used for quick generalisations of our experiences. It is not a link to truth, it is a tool for survival (as per evolution). Applying it to something like the information content of the universe vs. naturalism is completely absurd when it is already absurd for "medium world" claims.

Come back with something more substantive. Also specific =/= information. Acttualy you should giive your definition of information first, as this is yet another nebulous term which gets thrown around. And every time I use the information theorist definition, it virtually always renders such arguments as equivocations.

Information, in this sense, basically means potential knowledge of a thing.

Then your argument is incoherent, because that requires knowing something is sentience first (since by definition, to know something is to be consciously aware of it). You can never soundly attribute information to anything except something you already know to be a mind.
Envisage
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6/21/2015 10:49:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:46:26 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 10:27:16 AM, Envisage wrote:
P1: If the universe has mindless origins, it should not contain a significant amount of information.

Good luck ever proving P1 with any level of confidence, ever.

Let's consider the opposite: a reality with mindless origins should (or does) contain a significant amount of information.

Okay, I am doing that now. What's your problem with it?

P2: The universe contains a significant amount of information.

Define "information".

Information is defined as the potential knowledge of something.

See previous post. You must surely already be aware that this is an absurd argument - there is no need to defend something you know to be nonsense. Just because you agree with the conclusion doesn't mean you need to advocate for it. I would genuinely be shocked if you think this argument is anything but risible.

C: The universe did not have mindless origins.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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6/21/2015 10:57:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:13:51 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 9:34:48 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

The universe, right after the Big Bang was an ocean of electromagnetic energy, there was no water or anything else other than that. Hence, your post needs clarifying.

1). Are you referring to the time after the Big Bang where the electromagnetic energy became all the elements now present in the universe?

Yes.

Okay, from the moment of the Big Bang, the ocean of electromagnetic radiation expanded and began to cool and from this, the broken symmetry produces the known forces, strong, weak nuclear, gravity, etc., which began combining to produce hydrogen and then stars.

Is it this process that you are claiming is the mindless process that is actually not mindless but is instead being guided by an intelligence?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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6/21/2015 11:14:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:47:35 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 10:41:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 10:26:11 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 10:05:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 3:49:02 AM, Envisage wrote:
Water has specified properties of:

You are equivocating between specified & specific. This entire post is thus a non sequitir.

Specific works fine.

Then your entire argument is a non sequitir.

All I'm showing is that the natural properties of things contain a significant amount of information.

Specific is descriptive. Specified is prescriptive. You are attributing information to the order of something, it is not something it "possesses" as an "essence".

Specific is the correct term to use. Don't you agree that the physical properties of water is information about water?

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Yes... no.

Why yes and no?

Sorry, typo.

"Yeah.... no."

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

+1 on Deem's post. How did you calculate this magic number of "too much information for naturalism".

It's an intuitive argument, so although it is highly subjective, it should be true that if the universe had mindless origins it should not contain a significant amount of information.

Intuition is not an argument, it is not even evidence.

Why can't intuition be used as evidence? Our justice system uses it all the time.

Then our justice system's use of intuition (especially for things outside out everyday conception/experience) is BS. Intuition is demonstrably an approximation tool used for quick generalisations of our experiences. It is not a link to truth, it is a tool for survival (as per evolution). Applying it to something like the information content of the universe vs. naturalism is completely absurd when it is already absurd for "medium world" claims.

So basically, we you're saying that we can't trust our intuitions nor use it as evidence. Are you arguing that all of our intuitive processes are not reliably true?

My entire argument is intuitive. I know it has a high degree of subjectivity. But, it's logical (or seems to be).

Come back with something more substantive. Also specific =/= information. Acttualy you should giive your definition of information first, as this is yet another nebulous term which gets thrown around. And every time I use the information theorist definition, it virtually always renders such arguments as equivocations.

Information, in this sense, basically means potential knowledge of a thing.

Then your argument is incoherent, because that requires knowing something is sentience first (since by definition, to know something is to be consciously aware of it). You can never soundly attribute information to anything except something you already know to be a mind.

It only needs to exist as *potential* knowledge not *actual*. This wouldn't require sentience to exist.
Benshapiro
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6/21/2015 11:22:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:49:31 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 10:46:26 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 10:27:16 AM, Envisage wrote:
P1: If the universe has mindless origins, it should not contain a significant amount of information.

Good luck ever proving P1 with any level of confidence, ever.

Let's consider the opposite: a reality with mindless origins should (or does) contain a significant amount of information.

Okay, I am doing that now. What's your problem with it?

If something is mindless its non-informative. If reality has an origin from something fundamentally non-informative, then why all the information?

P2: The universe contains a significant amount of information.

Define "information".

Information is defined as the potential knowledge of something.

See previous post. You must surely already be aware that this is an absurd argument - there is no need to defend something you know to be nonsense. Just because you agree with the conclusion doesn't mean you need to advocate for it. I would genuinely be shocked if you think this argument is anything but risible.

I don't think it's nonsense. I'll admit that's an argument from intuition and can't be proven, but it's logical to me that mind produces information and mindless things do not. Reality obviously contains a lot of information (using water as one example) so it shouldn't be the case that reality has a fundamentally mindless origin.

C: The universe did not have mindless origins.
Envisage
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6/21/2015 11:28:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Then our justice system's use of intuition (especially for things outside out everyday conception/experience) is BS. Intuition is demonstrably an approximation tool used for quick generalisations of our experiences. It is not a link to truth, it is a tool for survival (as per evolution). Applying it to something like the information content of the universe vs. naturalism is completely absurd when it is already absurd for "medium world" claims.

So basically, we you're saying that we can't trust our intuitions nor use it as evidence. Are you arguing that all of our intuitive processes are not reliably true?

Yep. Very much so, especially for stuff outside of our average everyday experience for which it is evolved.

My entire argument is intuitive. I know it has a high degree of subjectivity. But, it's logical (or seems to be).

Intuition =/= logic. The very fact you are using the words "seems to be" concedes that much. If something is logical then it is deductively true or deductively false. Although you did give a syllogism, which was indeed logical, your justification for P1 was not.

Come back with something more substantive. Also specific =/= information. Acttualy you should giive your definition of information first, as this is yet another nebulous term which gets thrown around. And every time I use the information theorist definition, it virtually always renders such arguments as equivocations.

Information, in this sense, basically means potential knowledge of a thing.

Then your argument is incoherent, because that requires knowing something is sentience first (since by definition, to know something is to be consciously aware of it). You can never soundly attribute information to anything except something you already know to be a mind.

It only needs to exist as *potential* knowledge not *actual*. This wouldn't require sentience to exist.

Wtf is "potential knowledge". Something it "can know"? Your argument is making less and less sense. Your concept of information is becoming increasingly nebulous and useless. I honestly don't care what your definition is, so long as it entails something non-ambiguous and is used constistently with each premise.
Envisage
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6/21/2015 11:36:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Okay, I am doing that now. What's your problem with it?

If something is mindless its non-informative. If reality has an origin from something fundamentally non-informative, then why all the information?

Naturalism posits a non-informative origin? Ever heard of the law of conservation of information? The law on which Stephen Hawking conceded a bet on regarding black holes. I am not saying it is true, and they define "information" very different to how you use it, but I honestly don't see how it follows.

You treat information as if it is a "thing" with ontology. I just see it as descriptive, even in systems that are prescriptive of information (such as a piece of computer code). There is thus nothing inherent that prevents "information" being emergent (not sure how to word this, as emergent implies it was created, which is not what I would advocate). Even if it was created though, still doesn't follow that it wouldn't be created from non-informative origins. you don't have an argument here.

P2: The universe contains a significant amount of information.

Define "information".

Information is defined as the potential knowledge of something.

See previous post. You must surely already be aware that this is an absurd argument - there is no need to defend something you know to be nonsense. Just because you agree with the conclusion doesn't mean you need to advocate for it. I would genuinely be shocked if you think this argument is anything but risible.

I don't think it's nonsense. I'll admit that's an argument from intuition and can't be proven, but it's logical to me that mind produces information and mindless things do not.

You mean it is intuitive to you that mind produces information and mindless things do not. Don't conflate logic with intuition Ben, even low grade philosophical journals would reject that.

It is not remotely intuitive to me that mindless things do not produce information (of physical definition). Take a digital camera, for instance.

Reality obviously contains a lot of information (using water as one example) so it shouldn't be the case that reality has a fundamentally mindless origin.

No argument for this except your alleged magical truth powers of intuition, and I am not even sure that this frivolous generalisation I just made is actually a strawman or not.

C: The universe did not have mindless origins.
Harikrish
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6/21/2015 11:41:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

Jesus did not display any deep understanding of natural causes and certainly cannot be accused of being information rich.

Not only did the bible lack the concept of mental illness. Even physical ailments were attributed to demonic possession.

Jesus believed that demon or Satan possession caused deaf-and-dumbness (see Matthew 9:32-33; 12:22; Mark 9:17-29, Luke 11:14).

He supposedly restored sight by spitting on the eyes of a blind man (Mark 8:23) or anointing them with clay made with spittle (John 9:6) or by telling them to have faith.

A carpenters son delusionally playing doctor not unlike a few of our God possessed members claiming to be in contact with the Holy Spirit and even God.

God only provided knowledge of good and evil. It was man who through his own ingenuity and effort created bodies of knowledge, science and technology to advance his condition and go past the products of mindless origins.
tejretics
Posts: 6,089
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6/21/2015 11:43:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:11:47 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 6/21/2015 4:32:35 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

(1) Who decides the level of x being too information-rich to be a product of mindless origins? This is subjective.

It's subjective but intuitive. It isn't provable, but seems logical nonetheless.

It "seeming logical" means it isn't even an argument. Intuition isn't an argument.


(2) "Information rich stuff" can be generated by things other than minds

I don't agree. I'm talking about the nature of reality (the "graphics", amount of properties of things, etc.).

Just because of some man-made examples that correspond to nature, you can't infer everything like that requires a mind.

It's like saying:

1. Pillows are red.
2. There are things like pillows.
3. Those things are red.

It's just a non-sequitur, because your argument is basically:

1. Video-game simulations are information-rich and created by a mind.
2. There are other things information-rich.
C. Everything information-rich is created by a mind.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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6/21/2015 1:32:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:03:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
P1: If the universe has mindless origins, it should not contain a significant amount of information.

What experiences do you have studying universes with mindless origins to be able to tell us what the characteristics they have?

Second, please explain what it means for a universe to "contain information".
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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6/21/2015 1:36:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 11:14:26 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
My entire argument is intuitive. I know it has a high degree of subjectivity. But, it's logical (or seems to be).

Ben, that is a complete contradiction. An intuitive argument is the opposite of a logical argument.
wsmunit7
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6/21/2015 1:57:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 12:36:50 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 6/20/2015 11:40:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The world's most advanced computer/video game simulations have simulated physics, weather patterns, lighting effects, scale, graphics, etc., that are nowhere near as advanced as the real world.

Each generation of computer/video games becomes increasingly advanced. They advance because developers are finding better ways to add, manipulate, and process the code that runs these virtual processes. Code is the key. Code is an expression of information.

As a bit of a gamer myself my understanding they can "code" alot more to the real world than you would have us believe.

The problem isn't so much "code" it's the processing power needed as more calculations requires more processing power to compute those calculations.


So, why is the real world any different? There's an incomprehensible amount of information out in the world. Just take the properties of water for example.

Water has specified properties of:

Molar mass
Appearance
Odor
Density
Melting point
Boiling point
Solubility
Vapor pressure
Acidity
Basicity
Magnetic susceptibility
Thermal conductivity
Refractive index
Viscosity
Structure
Molecular shape

... And more. All of this is an expression of information.

Reality is too information-rich to feasibly be a product of mindless origins.

Maybe all of what we call reality is the output of some sort of computer running a program full of calculations...........or maybe you have wrongly attributed something to the natural world which is not the case.

Either way......................COMPUTERS !!!

"The MATRIX"?? Saw an article on the web today where Steven Hawkings is warning about AI.