Total Posts:34|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Prayer does NOT summon God?

Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer? Do you believe it summons God and the will of God will answer your prayers, or no?

If you do believe God answers prayer, then how do you explain a starving kid, someone dying from cancer, a rape victim, a person with HIV/AIDS, genocide, someone who had their legs amputated, etc. those who prayed very very hard and who had all of the faith in the world that God was going to heal or protect them, or grow their limbs back...and nothing happens except for the worst?

OR how do you explain a war between two groups of people both technically praying to the same God to win the war and have victory. One will win, one will lose. Why wasn't both prayers answered simultaneously if God answers prayer (which would be ironic as someone must lose)?
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/24/2015 11:29:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer? Do you believe it summons God and the will of God will answer your prayers, or no?

If you do believe God answers prayer, then how do you explain a starving kid, someone dying from cancer, a rape victim, a person with HIV/AIDS, genocide, someone who had their legs amputated, etc. those who prayed very very hard and who had all of the faith in the world that God was going to heal or protect them, or grow their limbs back...and nothing happens except for the worst?

OR how do you explain a war between two groups of people both technically praying to the same God to win the war and have victory. One will win, one will lose. Why wasn't both prayers answered simultaneously if God answers prayer (which would be ironic as someone must lose)?

It has not being shown that prayer to any God in any particular way is more effective than praying to the sun.

What sh*t me is this is a great example of peoples lack of critical thinking (confirmation bias) being taken advantage of and I don't see the churches going out of their way to educate their flock.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/24/2015 11:35:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer?

As an artistic expression of desire or intention, I see no harm.

However, in efficacy it's no better than a placebo, and once theology lies about that, or theocracy makes it mandatory, it becomes a tool of oppression.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 9:42:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer? Do you believe it summons God and the will of God will answer your prayers, or no?

If you do believe God answers prayer, then how do you explain a starving kid, someone dying from cancer, a rape victim, a person with HIV/AIDS, genocide, someone who had their legs amputated, etc. those who prayed very very hard and who had all of the faith in the world that God was going to heal or protect them, or grow their limbs back...and nothing happens except for the worst?

OR how do you explain a war between two groups of people both technically praying to the same God to win the war and have victory. One will win, one will lose. Why wasn't both prayers answered simultaneously if God answers prayer (which would be ironic as someone must lose)?

There is only one way to answer those questions about God helping starving children, stopping genocides and other such atrocities when prayed to. God simply said "NO!, let those children starve to death, let those who wish to commit atrocities do so, I will do nothing but watch."
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 11:42:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.

Oh I have, which makes the deity even more evil if it exists, and those stories had any credibility. The so and so plays games with humans, and answers prayer positively in some cases, whilst ignoring others!
Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 10:22:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 11:29:02 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer? Do you believe it summons God and the will of God will answer your prayers, or no?

If you do believe God answers prayer, then how do you explain a starving kid, someone dying from cancer, a rape victim, a person with HIV/AIDS, genocide, someone who had their legs amputated, etc. those who prayed very very hard and who had all of the faith in the world that God was going to heal or protect them, or grow their limbs back...and nothing happens except for the worst?

OR how do you explain a war between two groups of people both technically praying to the same God to win the war and have victory. One will win, one will lose. Why wasn't both prayers answered simultaneously if God answers prayer (which would be ironic as someone must lose)?

It has not being shown that prayer to any God in any particular way is more effective than praying to the sun.

What sh*t me is this is a great example of peoples lack of critical thinking (confirmation bias) being taken advantage of and I don't see the churches going out of their way to educate their flock.

True. I agree.
Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 10:25:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 11:35:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer?

As an artistic expression of desire or intention, I see no harm.

However, in efficacy it's no better than a placebo, and once theology lies about that, or theocracy makes it mandatory, it becomes a tool of oppression.

But, if their prayers being unanswered and possibly leading to depression and hopelessness...would this not be considered harmful?
Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 10:28:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 9:42:36 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer? Do you believe it summons God and the will of God will answer your prayers, or no?

If you do believe God answers prayer, then how do you explain a starving kid, someone dying from cancer, a rape victim, a person with HIV/AIDS, genocide, someone who had their legs amputated, etc. those who prayed very very hard and who had all of the faith in the world that God was going to heal or protect them, or grow their limbs back...and nothing happens except for the worst?

OR how do you explain a war between two groups of people both technically praying to the same God to win the war and have victory. One will win, one will lose. Why wasn't both prayers answered simultaneously if God answers prayer (which would be ironic as someone must lose)?

There is only one way to answer those questions about God helping starving children, stopping genocides and other such atrocities when prayed to. God simply said "NO!, let those children starve to death, let those who wish to commit atrocities do so, I will do nothing but watch."

I have pondered this. Either this is true or God is not active in the world (though, I'm not referring to the Christian God).
Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 10:34:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.

I have heard about this in churches, perhaps its true. But, has anyone been healed and have grown their amputated limbs back? And what of starving children in third world countries and genocide? How come all of their prayers are not answered?
Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 10:36:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 11:42:08 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.

Oh I have, which makes the deity even more evil if it exists, and those stories had any credibility. The so and so plays games with humans, and answers prayer positively in some cases, whilst ignoring others!

Possible, but what if the deity is unable to interact in the world. Does that make God evil?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 10:56:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 10:25:54 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:35:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer?
As an artistic expression of desire or intention, I see no harm.
However, in efficacy it's no better than a placebo, and once theology lies about that, or theocracy makes it mandatory, it becomes a tool of oppression.
But, if their prayers being unanswered and possibly leading to depression and hopelessness...would this not be considered harmful?

It would be unethical to take money, claim authority or accept benefits from another person in exchange for promises that their prayer will work, since that is statistically false, and cannot be assured. Charlatans like (say) Creflo A. Dollar are unquestionably unethical.

However, if there's evidence that belief in prayer does lasting psychological harm, I'm not aware of it, but I'd like to see a supporting study if you know of one, Najs.
Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 11:48:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 10:56:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:25:54 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:35:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer?
As an artistic expression of desire or intention, I see no harm.
However, in efficacy it's no better than a placebo, and once theology lies about that, or theocracy makes it mandatory, it becomes a tool of oppression.
But, if their prayers being unanswered and possibly leading to depression and hopelessness...would this not be considered harmful?

It would be unethical to take money, claim authority or accept benefits from another person in exchange for promises that their prayer will work, since that is statistically false, and cannot be assured. Charlatans like (say) Creflo A. Dollar are unquestionably unethical.

However, if there's evidence that belief in prayer does lasting psychological harm, I'm not aware of it, but I'd like to see a supporting study if you know of one, Najs.

I agree with the unethical practices of the infamous Creflo Dollar...hmm, I am surprised he still has members who attends his million dollar church.

Here is an article on a study conducted at the Wyoming Institute of Technology by Dr. John Christian: http://witscience.org...

"It is scientifically proven that prayer leads to a plethora of mental deficiencies,"-Dr. John Christian, PhD WIT

"Dr. Christian determined that a large percentage of those who pray suffer from severe cases of depression, usually have suicidal thoughts and tendencies, and generally feel as though they"ve been rejected by their faith."

I do not believe all theists who pray are all depressed and suicidal, but it appears that the risks tends to increase more often. Although I no longer follow a strict religious environment, I still pray daily...possibly out of fear but also to give thanks. But, I always hated when I went through a crises my theist friends would always say "you have to pray more", "pray harder than ever before", or "this time you must have more faith!"...and when I do this I realized I felt more depressed and it became mentally draining because nothing changed. Because if God is all knowing, why must I tell God something they are already aware of? The irony.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 11:55:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 11:48:23 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:56:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:25:54 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:35:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer?
As an artistic expression of desire or intention, I see no harm.
However, in efficacy it's no better than a placebo, and once theology lies about that, or theocracy makes it mandatory, it becomes a tool of oppression.
But, if their prayers being unanswered and possibly leading to depression and hopelessness...would this not be considered harmful?
If there's evidence that belief in prayer does lasting psychological harm, I'm not aware of it, but I'd like to see a supporting study if you know of one, Najs.

Here is an article on a study conducted at the Wyoming Institute of Technology by Dr. John Christian: http://witscience.org...
"It is scientifically proven that prayer leads to a plethora of mental deficiencies,"-Dr. John Christian, PhD WIT

Thank you Najs, but on brief search I could not find where the study had been published in a respected, peer-reviewed journal of psychology or similar. It's also unusual for a promotional university blog-site not to link the study when published, and that surprised me too.

That doesn't mean the study is flawed or fabricated. It just means that without evidence of competent, independent scrutiny of methods and data, any findings aren't 'proven'.

Moreover, the conclusions reported seemed to introduce dubious cause/correlate issues: even if people who prayed did show more distress signs, does prayer create that, or does distress lead to prayer?

We really need to read the study and any subsequent scientific discussion in a respected, peer-reviewed journal.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2015 11:58:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 10:34:09 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.

I have heard about this in churches, perhaps its true. But, has anyone been healed and have grown their amputated limbs back? And what of starving children in third world countries and genocide? How come all of their prayers are not answered?

It would take a slap idiot to pray for miraculous intervention on the part of God, when He, through Paul, specifically said that miraculous activity would cease with the completion of the NT.

Can't win for losing on that one:

(1) Miraculous activity today --> Paul lied
(2) No miraculous activity today --> God doesn't care

And miraculous activity did not occur simply cuz God is a nice guy in the first place.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 12:06:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 11:55:31 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/25/2015 11:48:23 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:56:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:25:54 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:35:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer?
As an artistic expression of desire or intention, I see no harm.
However, in efficacy it's no better than a placebo, and once theology lies about that, or theocracy makes it mandatory, it becomes a tool of oppression.
But, if their prayers being unanswered and possibly leading to depression and hopelessness...would this not be considered harmful?
If there's evidence that belief in prayer does lasting psychological harm, I'm not aware of it, but I'd like to see a supporting study if you know of one, Najs.

Here is an article on a study conducted at the Wyoming Institute of Technology by Dr. John Christian: http://witscience.org...
"It is scientifically proven that prayer leads to a plethora of mental deficiencies,"-Dr. John Christian, PhD WIT

Thank you Najs, but on brief search I could not find where the study had been published in a respected, peer-reviewed journal of psychology or similar. It's also unusual for a promotional university blog-site not to link the study when published, and that surprised me too.

That doesn't mean the study is flawed or fabricated. It just means that without evidence of competent, independent scrutiny of methods and data, any findings aren't 'proven'.

Moreover, the conclusions reported seemed to introduce dubious cause/correlate issues: even if people who prayed did show more distress signs, does prayer create that, or does distress lead to prayer?

We really need to read the study and any subsequent scientific discussion in a respected, peer-reviewed journal.

Thanks for pointing that out, I do apologize for not noticing. My search continues...
Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 12:22:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 11:58:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:34:09 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.

I have heard about this in churches, perhaps its true. But, has anyone been healed and have grown their amputated limbs back? And what of starving children in third world countries and genocide? How come all of their prayers are not answered?

It would take a slap idiot to pray for miraculous intervention on the part of God, when He, through Paul, specifically said that miraculous activity would cease with the completion of the NT.

Can't win for losing on that one:

(1) Miraculous activity today --> Paul lied
(2) No miraculous activity today --> God doesn't care

And miraculous activity did not occur simply cuz God is a nice guy in the first place.

Majority of the NT is proven false, I do not believe in the Christian NT God (that the prophet "Jesus" was a god) nor do I believe God ever spoken to self-proclaimed apostle Paul. Paul was either a liar or psychotic. So, whether miraculous activity existed or not, I would never take Paul's word for it.

Miraculous activity either exists or it does not exists, Paul never had the final say so nor was he a prophet. Though, I do not practice Pauline Christianity either.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 12:25:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 12:22:20 AM, Najs wrote:
At 6/25/2015 11:58:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:34:09 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.

I have heard about this in churches, perhaps its true. But, has anyone been healed and have grown their amputated limbs back? And what of starving children in third world countries and genocide? How come all of their prayers are not answered?

It would take a slap idiot to pray for miraculous intervention on the part of God, when He, through Paul, specifically said that miraculous activity would cease with the completion of the NT.

Can't win for losing on that one:

(1) Miraculous activity today --> Paul lied
(2) No miraculous activity today --> God doesn't care

And miraculous activity did not occur simply cuz God is a nice guy in the first place.

Majority of the NT is proven false, I do not believe in the Christian NT God (that the prophet "Jesus" was a god) nor do I believe God ever spoken to self-proclaimed apostle Paul. Paul was either a liar or psychotic. So, whether miraculous activity existed or not, I would never take Paul's word for it.

Well, where you happen to believe it or not = pretty much irrelevent

Miraculous activity either exists or it does not exists, Paul never had the final say so nor was he a prophet. Though, I do not practice Pauline Christianity either.

There is no difference between "Pauline Christianity" and "Petrine Christianity": they both preached and practiced the same message. Miraculous activity existed, according to the NT, at the times that Ephesians and I Corinthians were written; however, both books foretell the end of such activity at the time that revelation was completed. Thus, it is ridiculous to pray for an action which the NT itself says is not going to happen.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 9:57:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.

What kind of miraculous testimonies, exactly? Did God cure all the diseases? Did God stop starvation and famine? Did God stop all wars? Did God bring together and unite all mankind?

What exactly is the power of prayer and what has it accomplished? The finding of lost car keys, perhaps? An amount of money suddenly appearing to pay some bills? Those kind of "miraculous testimonies"?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 11:22:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 9:57:02 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.

What kind of miraculous testimonies, exactly? Did God cure all the diseases? Did God stop starvation and famine? Did God stop all wars? Did God bring together and unite all mankind?

What exactly is the power of prayer and what has it accomplished? The finding of lost car keys, perhaps? An amount of money suddenly appearing to pay some bills? Those kind of "miraculous testimonies"?

I'm going to ask you two questions:

1. Are you God?
2. Can you understand God's reasoning for intervening in some cases and not others?

Me neither.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 1:39:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 11:22:03 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:57:02 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.

What kind of miraculous testimonies, exactly? Did God cure all the diseases? Did God stop starvation and famine? Did God stop all wars? Did God bring together and unite all mankind?

What exactly is the power of prayer and what has it accomplished? The finding of lost car keys, perhaps? An amount of money suddenly appearing to pay some bills? Those kind of "miraculous testimonies"?

I'm going to ask you two questions:

1. Are you God?
2. Can you understand God's reasoning for intervening in some cases and not others?

Me neither.

Yes, that is very convenient. You make claims of miraculous testimonies and then are completely baffled by your own claims.

Leprechauns have been riding unicorns in the Kentucky Derby and always win yet they never receive any trophies. Obviously, we simply cannot understand the judges reasoning.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
ironslippers
Posts: 513
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 7:32:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer? Do you believe it summons God and the will of God will answer your prayers, or no?

If you do believe God answers prayer, then how do you explain a starving kid, someone dying from cancer, a rape victim, a person with HIV/AIDS, genocide, someone who had their legs amputated, etc. those who prayed very very hard and who had all of the faith in the world that God was going to heal or protect them, or grow their limbs back...and nothing happens except for the worst?

OR how do you explain a war between two groups of people both technically praying to the same God to win the war and have victory. One will win, one will lose. Why wasn't both prayers answered simultaneously if God answers prayer (which would be ironic as someone must lose)?

No But
I can summon a pizza with my phone 1-800-PIZZA HUT
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 7:39:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It would take a slap idiot to pray for miraculous intervention on the part of God, when He, through Paul, specifically said that miraculous activity would cease with the completion of the NT.


God had never spoken to Paul. Paul contradicts much of what God said, Paul also contradicts most of the teachings of Yeshua ("Jesus").

Well, where you happen to believe it or not = pretty much irrelevent

Evidence and facts are never irrelevant. Guessing, then actually believing what you guessed even after being proved wrong=highly irrelevant beliefs.

There is no difference between "Pauline Christianity" and "Petrine Christianity": they both preached and practiced the same message.

No one ever mentioned there was a difference between the two, you added that. If you claim to be christian, then it will be the bible I will reference for you. Not the differences or similarities between two types of Christianities.

Miraculous activity existed, according to the NT, at the times that Ephesians and I Corinthians were written; however, both books foretell the end of such activity at the time that revelation was completed. Thus, it is ridiculous to pray for an action which the NT itself says is not going to happen.

Can you provide scriptures where "God" declared this, not Paul or anyone that contradicts God's teachings please.

If it is true that miraculous activity is real from God, and God states that he does not change. Yet, you stated that God talked through Paul about the change in miraculous activity seizing...then something is very wrong with that picture. Because what I read states otherwise.

I the LORD do not change.
Malachi 3:6

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. Matthew 24:35

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
Numbers 23:19

So, what you repetitively mention is a contradiction if you believe in God of the bible. If you still believe what Paul said is true, then why believe Paul and not God? Who was correct? God or Paul?? Exactly.
Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2015 3:47:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The so and so plays games with humans, and answers prayer positively in some cases, whilst ignoring others!

If the deity is active in this world answering prayers of some but not of others, then yes. I suppose it would be ultimately an evil act.
Najs
Posts: 113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2015 4:21:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 11:55:31 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/25/2015 11:48:23 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:56:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:25:54 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:35:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer?
As an artistic expression of desire or intention, I see no harm.
However, in efficacy it's no better than a placebo, and once theology lies about that, or theocracy makes it mandatory, it becomes a tool of oppression.
But, if their prayers being unanswered and possibly leading to depression and hopelessness...would this not be considered harmful?
If there's evidence that belief in prayer does lasting psychological harm, I'm not aware of it, but I'd like to see a supporting study if you know of one, Najs.

Here is an article on a study conducted at the Wyoming Institute of Technology by Dr. John Christian: http://witscience.org...
"It is scientifically proven that prayer leads to a plethora of mental deficiencies,"-Dr. John Christian, PhD WIT

Thank you Najs, but on brief search I could not find where the study had been published in a respected, peer-reviewed journal of psychology or similar. It's also unusual for a promotional university blog-site not to link the study when published, and that surprised me too.

That doesn't mean the study is flawed or fabricated. It just means that without evidence of competent, independent scrutiny of methods and data, any findings aren't 'proven'.

Moreover, the conclusions reported seemed to introduce dubious cause/correlate issues: even if people who prayed did show more distress signs, does prayer create that, or does distress lead to prayer?

We really need to read the study and any subsequent scientific discussion in a respected, peer-reviewed journal.

I am still on the search with a peer reviewed journal, per se. I can only imagine the potential possibilities of a group effort for the search... Although off topic in relations to prayer not always being answered if not at all. I do believe prayer can be both beneficial and harmful, depending on the prayer being answered or not. As prayer is often a request to God for ourselves or for others. Please excuse me, but I just do not see how someone can be happy after a prayer for terminal illness or the approach of death on the behalf of oneself or for another if the prayer is unanswered...as their illness, pain, and suffering prevails? Or denial itself prevails. It seems only natural to feel depressed or as stated the continuance of denial, hope, and faith.

Through my experience working with those that suffer, when prayers that were left "unanswered", the result was either continue to have faith or succom to the reality, depression for some usually followed. I am sorry, I just do not see how this does not add harm. Sometimes leading to antidepressant medications and therapy to help aleviate the depression, pain, and suffering added by the result of prayer unanswered. Well, I can only speak from experiences that I observed first hand. Although, a published reputable study could also be beneficial for the masses who have not observed the possibilities of the ending result first hand, depending if their prayers were "answered" or not, or if they continue to have faith and denial.

As mentioned before it may take a group effort I'm not sure one alone is willing to take, but during my free time I'll search.

Although, I would like to return to the original, if God is present and active in the world why are so many prayers left unanswered from those who are suffering and dying?...perhaps no one knows that answer.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2015 5:38:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer? Do you believe it summons God and the will of God will answer your prayers, or no?

If you do believe God answers prayer, then how do you explain a starving kid, someone dying from cancer, a rape victim, a person with HIV/AIDS, genocide, someone who had their legs amputated, etc. those who prayed very very hard and who had all of the faith in the world that God was going to heal or protect them, or grow their limbs back...and nothing happens except for the worst?

OR how do you explain a war between two groups of people both technically praying to the same God to win the war and have victory. One will win, one will lose. Why wasn't both prayers answered simultaneously if God answers prayer (which would be ironic as someone must lose)?

Prayer is simply about communicating with someone.
Gods are humans. It seems the gods are crazy. They cannot balance themselves let alone the world around them.
In some places of the world tons of food is thrown in the garbage daily while in other places the gods are starving to death.
The gods who heal people are called doctors but apparently there are not enough of them to heal all the sick gods.
Not all gods are taught how to heal themselves.
It seems the gods work on the principle of the survival of the fittest like any other life form on this planet.
The weak ones die and the surviving ones become greedy dictators who want the rest to bow down and worship them as they rule the planet.
Serato
Posts: 743
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2015 6:26:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/25/2015 11:58:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:34:09 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.

I have heard about this in churches, perhaps its true. But, has anyone been healed and have grown their amputated limbs back? And what of starving children in third world countries and genocide? How come all of their prayers are not answered?

It would take a slap idiot to pray for miraculous intervention on the part of God, when He, through Paul, specifically said that miraculous activity would cease with the completion of the NT.

Can't win for losing on that one:

(1) Miraculous activity today --> Paul lied
(2) No miraculous activity today --> God doesn't care

And miraculous activity did not occur simply cuz God is a nice guy in the first place.

Miracles continue to this day, so Paul is either a big fat liar or you've misunderstood the translation. The Holy Spirit remains to this day to this world. I've seen it. I've felt it. The Holy Spirit visibly appear to quickly fix a plaguing problem that tormented me for weeks. Just because you refuse to believe the Holy Spirit helps people under extraordinary dire circumstances, doesn't mean the event didn't happen. When something happens of this magnitude, not a day goes by year after year, its memory is still as vivid and affectionate as the moment of occurrence. Pure love radiated from that bluish white orb that lit my room brighter than the sun.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/28/2015 2:05:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 4:21:02 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/25/2015 11:55:31 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/25/2015 11:48:23 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:56:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:25:54 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:35:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/24/2015 4:07:37 PM, Najs wrote:
This is an open discussion for everyone. What are your thoughts on prayer?
As an artistic expression of desire or intention, I see no harm.
However, in efficacy it's no better than a placebo, and once theology lies about that, or theocracy makes it mandatory, it becomes a tool of oppression.
But, if their prayers being unanswered and possibly leading to depression and hopelessness...would this not be considered harmful?
If there's evidence that belief in prayer does lasting psychological harm, I'm not aware of it, but I'd like to see a supporting study if you know of one, Najs.

Here is an article on a study conducted at the Wyoming Institute of Technology by Dr. John Christian: http://witscience.org...
"It is scientifically proven that prayer leads to a plethora of mental deficiencies,"-Dr. John Christian, PhD WIT

Thank you Najs, but on brief search I could not find where the study had been published in a respected, peer-reviewed journal of psychology or similar. It's also unusual for a promotional university blog-site not to link the study when published, and that surprised me too.

That doesn't mean the study is flawed or fabricated. It just means that without evidence of competent, independent scrutiny of methods and data, any findings aren't 'proven'.

Moreover, the conclusions reported seemed to introduce dubious cause/correlate issues: even if people who prayed did show more distress signs, does prayer create that, or does distress lead to prayer?

We really need to read the study and any subsequent scientific discussion in a respected, peer-reviewed journal.

I do believe prayer can be both beneficial and harmful, depending on the prayer being answered or not.

Placebos can be mildly beneficial, as long as they do not replace a more effective measure, and I suspect that prayer is neither better nor worse than a placebo.

However, any time a placebo is used in place of more effective measures (e.g. blood transfusion, better education, lifestyle changes or any medicine with medium to high rate of success and few serious side-effects), the subject incurs cost.

That's true of prayer also.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/28/2015 7:59:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 6:26:34 PM, Serato wrote:
At 6/25/2015 11:58:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/25/2015 10:34:09 PM, Najs wrote:
At 6/25/2015 9:52:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It really does. However, in studies it probably won't work because that'd harm the concept of faith, and interfere in the increased atheism of the last days.
Go into churches, however, and after spending several months there you'll probably have heard almost miraculous testimonies of the power of prayer.

I have heard about this in churches, perhaps its true. But, has anyone been healed and have grown their amputated limbs back? And what of starving children in third world countries and genocide? How come all of their prayers are not answered?

It would take a slap idiot to pray for miraculous intervention on the part of God, when He, through Paul, specifically said that miraculous activity would cease with the completion of the NT.

Can't win for losing on that one:

(1) Miraculous activity today --> Paul lied
(2) No miraculous activity today --> God doesn't care

And miraculous activity did not occur simply cuz God is a nice guy in the first place.

Miracles continue to this day, so Paul is either a big fat liar or you've misunderstood the translation. The Holy Spirit remains to this day to this world. I've seen it. I've felt it. The Holy Spirit visibly appear to quickly fix a plaguing problem that tormented me for weeks. Just because you refuse to believe the Holy Spirit helps people under extraordinary dire circumstances, doesn't mean the event didn't happen. When something happens of this magnitude, not a day goes by year after year, its memory is still as vivid and affectionate as the moment of occurrence. Pure love radiated from that bluish white orb that lit my room brighter than the sun.

wow, I'd like to try whatever you were smoking that day.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth