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The Historical Christ--Fact or Fiction?

B0HICA
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6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...
bulproof
Posts: 26,180
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6/26/2015 4:15:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

Oh dear! apologeticspress!
Lets not look at the facts. LOL
It takes only one drink to get me drunk. The trouble is, I can't remember if it's the thirteenth or the fourteenth.

George Burns
B0HICA
Posts: 366
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6/26/2015 4:20:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 4:15:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

Oh dear! apologeticspress!
Lets not look at the facts. LOL

Regardless of what you think, the evidence is there. Did you even read the article? Can you refute any of it. My guess would be no. You have contributed exactly nothing to this discussion. How pathetic.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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6/26/2015 4:42:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

You can have a Jesus, the non supernatural Jesus. A man who said things, and other people believed the things he said.

But when you start making claims about Jesus or anyone who among other things is a divine creature (Gods sons ?), heals the sick via supernatural means, walks on water, will return in the future to judge the living and the dead and.........................is the one human sacrifice to appease an angry God which unlike all other human sacrifices that have come before and after it should be believed as being effective...........

Well sh*t, I am going to have to take issue with that going anywhere near the word historical.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
bulproof
Posts: 26,180
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6/26/2015 5:51:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 4:20:01 AM, B0HICA wrote:
At 6/26/2015 4:15:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

Oh dear! apologeticspress!
Lets not look at the facts. LOL

Regardless of what you think, the evidence is there. Did you even read the article? Can you refute any of it. My guess would be no. You have contributed exactly nothing to this discussion. How pathetic.

Which makes my contribution infinitely greater than yours.
It takes only one drink to get me drunk. The trouble is, I can't remember if it's the thirteenth or the fourteenth.

George Burns
JJ50
Posts: 2,145
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6/26/2015 6:00:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am of the opinion a guy called Jesus probably existed, and may have had a charismatic personality, which is why he had some followers. However, most of what is written about him is fiction, imo.
Wylted
Posts: 21,204
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6/26/2015 6:49:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

I believe he did, but that's beside the point. You haven't actually presented any facts, all I see is a link. A link may be good as a citation, but not as an argument.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/26/2015 7:18:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

Found them:

http://www.amazon.co.uk...
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/26/2015 7:21:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This historical Jesus debate however is completely besides the point here. Since the Jesus that even historians believe existed, is nothing like the Jesus worshipped by Christians today.

It certainly wasn't the Jesus that performed miracles, spoke to God, was God, rose from the dead, etc.
dee-em
Posts: 6,872
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6/26/2015 7:49:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

This is short list of historians contemporary with the alleged life of Jesus who we would reasonably expect to have known about him and recorded it in their written works (courtesy of R. G. Price).

Justus of Tiberias Jewish historian who lived in Galilee during the 1st century and wrote two preserved works, a history of the Jewish War of 66-70 and a chronicle of the Jewish people from Moses to the death of Agrippa II in 100 CE, covering the period in which Jesus supposedly lived. (Justus may have lived slightly after the supposed death of Jesus)

Philo of Alexandria Jewish historian, philosopher, theologian, and community leader who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE in Alexandria Egypt, but reported on events throughout the Mediterranean world. He specifically wrote about conflicts between Pontius Pilate and Jews during Pilate's governorship of Judea.

Pliny the Elder Roman historian and philosopher who lived from 23-79 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire, though mostly in the northern regions. Most of his works, over 200 manuscripts, are preserved.

Seneca the Younger Roman philosopher and statesman who lived from 3 BCE to 65 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire and was the private tutor of Nero. His brother Gallio heard charges brought by Jews against the apostle Paul, but he dismissed the charges. Many of the works of Seneca survive, including over 100 letters on morality.

Valerius Maximus Roman writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, who traveled to various places in the Roman Empire, including eastern portions of the empire. He wrote a popular series of books on memorable sayings and deeds collected from throughout the empire in 30 CE.

Velleius Paterculus Roman military officer and historian who lived from 20 BCE to 31 CE. He served in the military in the eastern portions of the empire and wrote a surviving work, Compendium of Roman History, which covers history up through 14 CE. Other materials survive as well. His Compendium of Roman History actually spends a lot of time discussing non-Romans as well.

Please identify which of these prime candidate historians actually mentioned Jesus.
SNP1
Posts: 2,415
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6/26/2015 8:44:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You go to an apologetic source (which has obvious bias). Let me counter with the peer reviewed work if Richard Carrier "On the Historicity of Jesus" and say that Jesus was a myth.
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Arasa
Posts: 380
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6/26/2015 4:47:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 7:49:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

This is short list of historians contemporary with the alleged life of Jesus who we would reasonably expect to have known about him and recorded it in their written works (courtesy of R. G. Price).

Justus of Tiberias Jewish historian who lived in Galilee during the 1st century and wrote two preserved works, a history of the Jewish War of 66-70 and a chronicle of the Jewish people from Moses to the death of Agrippa II in 100 CE, covering the period in which Jesus supposedly lived. (Justus may have lived slightly after the supposed death of Jesus)

Philo of Alexandria Jewish historian, philosopher, theologian, and community leader who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE in Alexandria Egypt, but reported on events throughout the Mediterranean world. He specifically wrote about conflicts between Pontius Pilate and Jews during Pilate's governorship of Judea.

Pliny the Elder Roman historian and philosopher who lived from 23-79 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire, though mostly in the northern regions. Most of his works, over 200 manuscripts, are preserved.

Seneca the Younger Roman philosopher and statesman who lived from 3 BCE to 65 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire and was the private tutor of Nero. His brother Gallio heard charges brought by Jews against the apostle Paul, but he dismissed the charges. Many of the works of Seneca survive, including over 100 letters on morality.

Valerius Maximus Roman writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, who traveled to various places in the Roman Empire, including eastern portions of the empire. He wrote a popular series of books on memorable sayings and deeds collected from throughout the empire in 30 CE.

Velleius Paterculus Roman military officer and historian who lived from 20 BCE to 31 CE. He served in the military in the eastern portions of the empire and wrote a surviving work, Compendium of Roman History, which covers history up through 14 CE. Other materials survive as well. His Compendium of Roman History actually spends a lot of time discussing non-Romans as well.

Please identify which of these prime candidate historians actually mentioned Jesus.

Philosophically, I can say with 100% certainty that this falls under the category of the "Argument from silence" fallacy. Please retract the argument and do not use it in its current form in future posts.
Arasa
Posts: 380
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6/26/2015 4:59:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 7:21:00 AM, Envisage wrote:
This historical Jesus debate however is completely besides the point here. Since the Jesus that even historians believe existed, is nothing like the Jesus worshipped by Christians today.

It certainly wasn't the Jesus that performed miracles, spoke to God, was God, rose from the dead, etc.

Hello, Envisage!

I'm afraid that I am the one to point this out, but you seem to be confusing the role of historians. In the same way that archeologists can only confirm that cities and nations existed at one point, a historian can only confirm that people existed at a specific point.
Allow me to explain more clearly...

We have historical record of a persian king whipping the seas beneath him, believing himself to be controlling the waves. We cannot confirm that this even happened, except to say that it is plausible and we have an eyewitness account. Well, the four gospels are acclaimed eyewitness accounts (except Luke, which is a compilation of eyewitness reports) that detail numerous events taking place. It also makes sense that anyone seeing these events (or 'miracles') were either already Christians, or became Christians having seen the events. So we are unlikely to see eyewitness reports of miracles from someone who did not believe that miracles were plausible.
All we are left with are eyewitness accounts- the same standard for the persian king (I believe it was one of the Xerxes'), yet historians cannot say that Jesus' works actually happened. All that can be said with absolute certainty is that Jesus did exist, and so that is all that historians will say, if that. If we discover an ancient method of curing lepers, then historians will be able to add Jesus' curing of lepers as confirmed historical events.

All of this to say that historians have to view everything minimalistically. If it seems unlikely, they cannot write it as fact. Miracles and resurrections certainly seem unlikely to us today, and so historians can only say that those events probably didn't happen. We cannot make an argument from silence to say that because modern historians do not write that Jesus rose from the dead, that Jesus did not rise from the dead.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,262
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6/26/2015 7:31:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

The historical Jesus probably existed IMO. However, whether he was the son of God is another matter.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
B0HICA
Posts: 366
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6/26/2015 8:00:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 4:47:25 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 6/26/2015 7:49:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

This is short list of historians contemporary with the alleged life of Jesus who we would reasonably expect to have known about him and recorded it in their written works (courtesy of R. G. Price).

Justus of Tiberias Jewish historian who lived in Galilee during the 1st century and wrote two preserved works, a history of the Jewish War of 66-70 and a chronicle of the Jewish people from Moses to the death of Agrippa II in 100 CE, covering the period in which Jesus supposedly lived. (Justus may have lived slightly after the supposed death of Jesus)

Philo of Alexandria Jewish historian, philosopher, theologian, and community leader who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE in Alexandria Egypt, but reported on events throughout the Mediterranean world. He specifically wrote about conflicts between Pontius Pilate and Jews during Pilate's governorship of Judea.

Pliny the Elder Roman historian and philosopher who lived from 23-79 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire, though mostly in the northern regions. Most of his works, over 200 manuscripts, are preserved.

Seneca the Younger Roman philosopher and statesman who lived from 3 BCE to 65 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire and was the private tutor of Nero. His brother Gallio heard charges brought by Jews against the apostle Paul, but he dismissed the charges. Many of the works of Seneca survive, including over 100 letters on morality.

Valerius Maximus Roman writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, who traveled to various places in the Roman Empire, including eastern portions of the empire. He wrote a popular series of books on memorable sayings and deeds collected from throughout the empire in 30 CE.

Velleius Paterculus Roman military officer and historian who lived from 20 BCE to 31 CE. He served in the military in the eastern portions of the empire and wrote a surviving work, Compendium of Roman History, which covers history up through 14 CE. Other materials survive as well. His Compendium of Roman History actually spends a lot of time discussing non-Romans as well.

Please identify which of these prime candidate historians actually mentioned Jesus.

Philosophically, I can say with 100% certainty that this falls under the category of the "Argument from silence" fallacy. Please retract the argument and do not use it in its current form in future posts.

I was gonna mention this, but it usually falls on deaf ears. Some people will hold to a belief in opposition of all evidence to the contrary. I can understand someone refusing to believe something for which there is no proof. But to refuse to even admit the possibility is another thing entirely.
SNP1
Posts: 2,415
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6/26/2015 9:21:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 4:47:25 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 6/26/2015 7:49:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

This is short list of historians contemporary with the alleged life of Jesus who we would reasonably expect to have known about him and recorded it in their written works (courtesy of R. G. Price).

Justus of Tiberias Jewish historian who lived in Galilee during the 1st century and wrote two preserved works, a history of the Jewish War of 66-70 and a chronicle of the Jewish people from Moses to the death of Agrippa II in 100 CE, covering the period in which Jesus supposedly lived. (Justus may have lived slightly after the supposed death of Jesus)

Philo of Alexandria Jewish historian, philosopher, theologian, and community leader who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE in Alexandria Egypt, but reported on events throughout the Mediterranean world. He specifically wrote about conflicts between Pontius Pilate and Jews during Pilate's governorship of Judea.

Pliny the Elder Roman historian and philosopher who lived from 23-79 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire, though mostly in the northern regions. Most of his works, over 200 manuscripts, are preserved.

Seneca the Younger Roman philosopher and statesman who lived from 3 BCE to 65 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire and was the private tutor of Nero. His brother Gallio heard charges brought by Jews against the apostle Paul, but he dismissed the charges. Many of the works of Seneca survive, including over 100 letters on morality.

Valerius Maximus Roman writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, who traveled to various places in the Roman Empire, including eastern portions of the empire. He wrote a popular series of books on memorable sayings and deeds collected from throughout the empire in 30 CE.

Velleius Paterculus Roman military officer and historian who lived from 20 BCE to 31 CE. He served in the military in the eastern portions of the empire and wrote a surviving work, Compendium of Roman History, which covers history up through 14 CE. Other materials survive as well. His Compendium of Roman History actually spends a lot of time discussing non-Romans as well.

Please identify which of these prime candidate historians actually mentioned Jesus.

Philosophically, I can say with 100% certainty that this falls under the category of the "Argument from silence" fallacy. Please retract the argument and do not use it in its current form in future posts.

You know, except that argument from silence is NOT a fallacy in regards to the study of history (it can, however, be misused).
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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6/26/2015 9:32:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Jesus Christ of the Gospels is a literary creation, a fictional character built up of verses from the Old Testament interpreted as referring to Jesus Christ as Messiah, plus plots to make Jesus obtain the same sorts of miraculous powers over water especially so that Jesus could become a new Moses leader and change Jewish religion into a universal one that Gentile Church Fathers desired as a new priesthood. However, there is a core in the teachings of Jesus that show a unique personality and a set of interests found solely in this Christ person influence on both Jews and Gentiles.

Having found Yeishu ben Pantera's references in the Talmud that are too close to Jesus' biography to be coincidental I go with Yeishu as being the closest we will ever get to the Historical Jesus. Yeishu lived perhaps a hundred years before the Gospel Jesus Christ was invented which gives time for a Christ legend to develop and time for Christians to be seen in Rome at a fairly early date because Christianity had been developing within Jewish exile communities, especially the Alexandrian one, due to the influence of Greek philosophy.

Pauline Christians are stuck with the fact all their beliefs and history were held in the hands of Roman Catholic Church men for centuries, still are, and so all of Pauline Christianity is derived from Gentile Church Fathers buddy buddy with Rome. Which of course wanted to see Judaism crippled and Jews made Roman citizens which Pauline Christian doctrines would certainly help bring about. And did. Only the power of Rome to cover up and influence all Western Christian civilization allowed the Pauline type of Christian beliefs to become "Christianity" to the world. In short, Pauline Christianity was a sales job by the Madison Ave and Wall St. power brokers of ancient Rome and has about as much spiritual authority as an ad for Chevy trucks or Marlboro cigarettes.
B0HICA
Posts: 366
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6/26/2015 10:24:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 9:21:20 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 4:47:25 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 6/26/2015 7:49:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

This is short list of historians contemporary with the alleged life of Jesus who we would reasonably expect to have known about him and recorded it in their written works (courtesy of R. G. Price).

Justus of Tiberias Jewish historian who lived in Galilee during the 1st century and wrote two preserved works, a history of the Jewish War of 66-70 and a chronicle of the Jewish people from Moses to the death of Agrippa II in 100 CE, covering the period in which Jesus supposedly lived. (Justus may have lived slightly after the supposed death of Jesus)

Philo of Alexandria Jewish historian, philosopher, theologian, and community leader who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE in Alexandria Egypt, but reported on events throughout the Mediterranean world. He specifically wrote about conflicts between Pontius Pilate and Jews during Pilate's governorship of Judea.

Pliny the Elder Roman historian and philosopher who lived from 23-79 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire, though mostly in the northern regions. Most of his works, over 200 manuscripts, are preserved.

Seneca the Younger Roman philosopher and statesman who lived from 3 BCE to 65 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire and was the private tutor of Nero. His brother Gallio heard charges brought by Jews against the apostle Paul, but he dismissed the charges. Many of the works of Seneca survive, including over 100 letters on morality.

Valerius Maximus Roman writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, who traveled to various places in the Roman Empire, including eastern portions of the empire. He wrote a popular series of books on memorable sayings and deeds collected from throughout the empire in 30 CE.

Velleius Paterculus Roman military officer and historian who lived from 20 BCE to 31 CE. He served in the military in the eastern portions of the empire and wrote a surviving work, Compendium of Roman History, which covers history up through 14 CE. Other materials survive as well. His Compendium of Roman History actually spends a lot of time discussing non-Romans as well.

Please identify which of these prime candidate historians actually mentioned Jesus.

Philosophically, I can say with 100% certainty that this falls under the category of the "Argument from silence" fallacy. Please retract the argument and do not use it in its current form in future posts.

You know, except that argument from silence is NOT a fallacy in regards to the study of history (it can, however, be misused).

It is a fallacy. It would be like someone saying I've never seen a black person, so they don't exist. And as for historical references to Christ, history is far from silent.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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6/26/2015 10:35:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 4:42:27 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

You can have a Jesus, the non supernatural Jesus. A man who said things, and other people believed the things he said.

But when you start making claims about Jesus or anyone who among other things is a divine creature (Gods sons ?), heals the sick via supernatural means, walks on water, will return in the future to judge the living and the dead and.........................is the one human sacrifice to appease an angry God which unlike all other human sacrifices that have come before and after it should be believed as being effective...........

Well sh*t, I am going to have to take issue with that going anywhere near the word historical.

So what about the claims about Jesus the supernatural doing various miraculous things ?

Is that historical ? Is it reasonable to believe ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
SNP1
Posts: 2,415
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6/27/2015 4:08:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 10:24:52 PM, B0HICA wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:21:20 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 4:47:25 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 6/26/2015 7:49:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

This is short list of historians contemporary with the alleged life of Jesus who we would reasonably expect to have known about him and recorded it in their written works (courtesy of R. G. Price).

Justus of Tiberias Jewish historian who lived in Galilee during the 1st century and wrote two preserved works, a history of the Jewish War of 66-70 and a chronicle of the Jewish people from Moses to the death of Agrippa II in 100 CE, covering the period in which Jesus supposedly lived. (Justus may have lived slightly after the supposed death of Jesus)

Philo of Alexandria Jewish historian, philosopher, theologian, and community leader who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE in Alexandria Egypt, but reported on events throughout the Mediterranean world. He specifically wrote about conflicts between Pontius Pilate and Jews during Pilate's governorship of Judea.

Pliny the Elder Roman historian and philosopher who lived from 23-79 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire, though mostly in the northern regions. Most of his works, over 200 manuscripts, are preserved.

Seneca the Younger Roman philosopher and statesman who lived from 3 BCE to 65 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire and was the private tutor of Nero. His brother Gallio heard charges brought by Jews against the apostle Paul, but he dismissed the charges. Many of the works of Seneca survive, including over 100 letters on morality.

Valerius Maximus Roman writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, who traveled to various places in the Roman Empire, including eastern portions of the empire. He wrote a popular series of books on memorable sayings and deeds collected from throughout the empire in 30 CE.

Velleius Paterculus Roman military officer and historian who lived from 20 BCE to 31 CE. He served in the military in the eastern portions of the empire and wrote a surviving work, Compendium of Roman History, which covers history up through 14 CE. Other materials survive as well. His Compendium of Roman History actually spends a lot of time discussing non-Romans as well.

Please identify which of these prime candidate historians actually mentioned Jesus.

Philosophically, I can say with 100% certainty that this falls under the category of the "Argument from silence" fallacy. Please retract the argument and do not use it in its current form in future posts.

You know, except that argument from silence is NOT a fallacy in regards to the study of history (it can, however, be misused).

It is a fallacy. It would be like someone saying I've never seen a black person, so they don't exist. And as for historical references to Christ, history is far from silent.

Ya, its not like I am majoring in history or anything.

Also, you are using a false analogy (since I specified that it isn't in regard to the study of history).

Arguments from silence are helpful for establishing history, but they can be misused.

Last, give one example of a non-forged, non-interpolated, reliable reference to a historical Jesus.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
B0HICA
Posts: 366
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6/27/2015 4:23:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Last, give one example of a non-forged, non-interpolated, reliable reference to a historical Jesus."

I did. Didn't you read the article?
JJ50
Posts: 2,145
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6/27/2015 5:58:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 10:35:16 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 6/26/2015 4:42:27 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

You can have a Jesus, the non supernatural Jesus. A man who said things, and other people believed the things he said.

But when you start making claims about Jesus or anyone who among other things is a divine creature (Gods sons ?), heals the sick via supernatural means, walks on water, will return in the future to judge the living and the dead and.........................is the one human sacrifice to appease an angry God which unlike all other human sacrifices that have come before and after it should be believed as being effective...........

Well sh*t, I am going to have to take issue with that going anywhere near the word historical.

So what about the claims about Jesus the supernatural doing various miraculous things ?

Is that historical ? Is it reasonable to believe ?



Definitely NOT!
dee-em
Posts: 6,872
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6/27/2015 7:16:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 4:47:25 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 6/26/2015 7:49:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

This is short list of historians contemporary with the alleged life of Jesus who we would reasonably expect to have known about him and recorded it in their written works (courtesy of R. G. Price).

Justus of Tiberias Jewish historian who lived in Galilee during the 1st century and wrote two preserved works, a history of the Jewish War of 66-70 and a chronicle of the Jewish people from Moses to the death of Agrippa II in 100 CE, covering the period in which Jesus supposedly lived. (Justus may have lived slightly after the supposed death of Jesus)

Philo of Alexandria Jewish historian, philosopher, theologian, and community leader who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE in Alexandria Egypt, but reported on events throughout the Mediterranean world. He specifically wrote about conflicts between Pontius Pilate and Jews during Pilate's governorship of Judea.

Pliny the Elder Roman historian and philosopher who lived from 23-79 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire, though mostly in the northern regions. Most of his works, over 200 manuscripts, are preserved.

Seneca the Younger Roman philosopher and statesman who lived from 3 BCE to 65 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire and was the private tutor of Nero. His brother Gallio heard charges brought by Jews against the apostle Paul, but he dismissed the charges. Many of the works of Seneca survive, including over 100 letters on morality.

Valerius Maximus Roman writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, who traveled to various places in the Roman Empire, including eastern portions of the empire. He wrote a popular series of books on memorable sayings and deeds collected from throughout the empire in 30 CE.

Velleius Paterculus Roman military officer and historian who lived from 20 BCE to 31 CE. He served in the military in the eastern portions of the empire and wrote a surviving work, Compendium of Roman History, which covers history up through 14 CE. Other materials survive as well. His Compendium of Roman History actually spends a lot of time discussing non-Romans as well.

Please identify which of these prime candidate historians actually mentioned Jesus.

Philosophically, I can say with 100% certainty that this falls under the category of the "Argument from silence" fallacy. Please retract the argument and do not use it in its current form in future posts.

Don't be silly August. You're thinking of a different fallacy by the same name:

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com...

An argument from silence where we have a reasonable expectation that a person (historian) would know and write about a specific topic, that is a different animal:

https://scienceandotherdrugs.wordpress.com...
dee-em
Posts: 6,872
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6/27/2015 7:31:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:00:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:
At 6/26/2015 4:47:25 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 6/26/2015 7:49:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

This is short list of historians contemporary with the alleged life of Jesus who we would reasonably expect to have known about him and recorded it in their written works (courtesy of R. G. Price).

Justus of Tiberias Jewish historian who lived in Galilee during the 1st century and wrote two preserved works, a history of the Jewish War of 66-70 and a chronicle of the Jewish people from Moses to the death of Agrippa II in 100 CE, covering the period in which Jesus supposedly lived. (Justus may have lived slightly after the supposed death of Jesus)

Philo of Alexandria Jewish historian, philosopher, theologian, and community leader who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE in Alexandria Egypt, but reported on events throughout the Mediterranean world. He specifically wrote about conflicts between Pontius Pilate and Jews during Pilate's governorship of Judea.

Pliny the Elder Roman historian and philosopher who lived from 23-79 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire, though mostly in the northern regions. Most of his works, over 200 manuscripts, are preserved.

Seneca the Younger Roman philosopher and statesman who lived from 3 BCE to 65 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire and was the private tutor of Nero. His brother Gallio heard charges brought by Jews against the apostle Paul, but he dismissed the charges. Many of the works of Seneca survive, including over 100 letters on morality.

Valerius Maximus Roman writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, who traveled to various places in the Roman Empire, including eastern portions of the empire. He wrote a popular series of books on memorable sayings and deeds collected from throughout the empire in 30 CE.

Velleius Paterculus Roman military officer and historian who lived from 20 BCE to 31 CE. He served in the military in the eastern portions of the empire and wrote a surviving work, Compendium of Roman History, which covers history up through 14 CE. Other materials survive as well. His Compendium of Roman History actually spends a lot of time discussing non-Romans as well.

Please identify which of these prime candidate historians actually mentioned Jesus.

Philosophically, I can say with 100% certainty that this falls under the category of the "Argument from silence" fallacy. Please retract the argument and do not use it in its current form in future posts.

I was gonna mention this, but it usually falls on deaf ears. Some people will hold to a belief in opposition of all evidence to the contrary. I can understand someone refusing to believe something for which there is no proof. But to refuse to even admit the possibility is another thing entirely.

All evidence to the contrary? The problem is the lack of evidence, of did you miss that teensy weensy point? Lol.

No contemporary references to Jesus. Many decades later a story about a supernatural Jesus is produced from a non-historical (religious) source. Later yet a few brief, some undoubtedly interpolated, mentions of Jesus belief amongst Christians appear in a handful of works by historians. Voila! Evidence for a historical Jesus.
SNP1
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6/27/2015 11:20:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 4:23:08 AM, B0HICA wrote:
"Last, give one example of a non-forged, non-interpolated, reliable reference to a historical Jesus."

I did. Didn't you read the article?

And I gave a book as a response didn't you read that? How about actually arguing it yourself?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
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DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,221
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6/27/2015 11:39:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 3:35:47 AM, B0HICA wrote:
You hear it all the time. Jesus was just a myth. They claim that there is no evidence that He ever existed. Did He, or didn't He? Lets look at the facts.

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

So, when are you going to look at the facts?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth