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Does God deserve to be worshipped?

ClashnBoom
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6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.
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JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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6/26/2015 8:16:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

The deity featured in the Bible isn't even good enough for one to wipe one's feet on if covered in dog poo, let alone being worshipped! Nothing and no one is worthy of worship, imo!
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,647
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6/26/2015 9:31:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

So. we worship a God that created evil and get punished for eternity if we don't?

That's a god of pure evil.
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a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
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dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/26/2015 9:43:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

No. The God of Abraham is an abusive parent who deserves only contempt for the way he treats his so-called children.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,012
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6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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6/26/2015 10:08:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Gnostic Christians refused to worship Yahweh, the Fraud of Israel, even though they thought Yahweh was the Maker of Creation, that mistake happening because the science of history wasn't invented yet and the knowledge of God Most High, EL Elyon, as He was known in Canaan before priests of Judah subsumed EL into their artifice god, Yahweh dressed up as "YHWH" but still the same old Israelite tribal war god and not God Most High.

Judah pulled a real Lucifer stunt and Abrahamic believers have no idea they did that yet now both Jews and Pauline Christians are worshiping the wrong god, not the Most High at all but the lower war god, Yahweh or "Jehovah" (= "God of Ruin"btw) .

There is not one single Canaanite cuniform text in which EL punishes any human being yet the Fraud of Israel is all over the place threatening punishment, eternal punishment, for disobeying commands, just as a general would do dealing with human beings as soldiers and having no other value but to serve a warlord god.

I don't worship warlord gods. My God, Eloi, Eloi, is EL, not Yahweh, and if you are looking for a Good God find and read Semitic Languages Prof. John Gray's Near Eastern Mythologies and find Jesus' Abba, his Daddy, in EL Elyon.

"War is against my wish; Plant the seeds of peace in the heart of the earth."--Canaanite saying attributed to EL Elyon.

You want religious war, you worship Yahweh, or Allah, war gods. You want peace on earth, goodwill to all, you worship EL Elyon, the "Kindly One".
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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6/26/2015 10:40:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

"I was raised in a Buddhist temple and when I died I went to the Christian hell because the one christian I've ever met wasn't very persuasive."
That evil piece of refuse chose that eternal torment, I'll say.
iSpy
Posts: 41
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6/26/2015 11:10:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

Why would a loving god remain so nebulous and ambiguous that his own followers can't even come to a common consensus regarding his intentions? So many beliefs and interpretations, yet such steep penalties for disbelieving and misinterpreting. Hardly seems fair, considering that an omnipotent being should easily be able to communicate in a manner that leaves no room for interpretation or margin of error. Don't you think?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/26/2015 11:30:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

The question does God deserve to be worshiped is much like asking if Mother Nature deserves to be worshiped in spite of all the chaos and disasters she causes on the planet.

What is the point of personifying natural forces and worshiping them?
Trying to please "the forces" will not stop them from creating disasters on the planet.
The worship of Gods is nothing but superstitious nonsense.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,079
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6/26/2015 11:32:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

Sure, don't worship God. Burn eternally, but at least you get to feel self-righteous about standing up to the alleged sky bully, right?
My point is, if you believe God to be real but you hate Him and/or believe Him to be evil, the smart thing to do would still be to worship Him. There's literally nothing to be gained from rebellion. Nothing. You wouldn't even be able to say without a doubt that you're in the right.

Why? Well, there's two reasons why.
First, right and wrong is not written in stone. If it exists, it's either in our minds or God's mind. We cannot enforce our standard upon God, but He can upon us, and thus it's reasonable to conclude that His standards are more legit than ours. And obviously His standard was imposed upon us, not Himself, so God violating His own standard is not a criminal act anymore than it is for the museum curator to touch the sealed-off artifact. Also, if Sin is defined as actions which are outside of the will of God, and God does as He wills, then nothing God does can be considered sinful.
2. Even assuming that God holds himself to His own standard, you still cannot definitely say that He is immoral. For instance, we'd both agree murder is wrong. But how about in self-defense, or how about killing a robber who's threatening your loved ones? Ethics are at least somewhat situational, and since God has infinite knowledge, He has full knowledge of the outcomes of actions. We do not have this foreknowledge, so if God were to undertake a harsh action for a greater good, we might not understand it, and we probably wouldn't.
For instance, let's say you push your blind and deaf friend off the road and save him from the incoming car. To their perspective, you pushed him and knocked him to the ground, an immoral act which he found painful. But if he knew what you knew, he would realize it wasn't immoral at all; rather, it was an act of good.
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bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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6/27/2015 2:48:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 11:32:40 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

Sure, don't worship God. Burn eternally, but at least you get to feel self-righteous about standing up to the alleged sky bully, right?
My point is, if you believe God to be real but you hate Him and/or believe Him to be evil, the smart thing to do would still be to worship Him. There's literally nothing to be gained from rebellion. Nothing. You wouldn't even be able to say without a doubt that you're in the right.

Why? Well, there's two reasons why.
First, right and wrong is not written in stone. If it exists, it's either in our minds or God's mind. We cannot enforce our standard upon God, but He can upon us, and thus it's reasonable to conclude that His standards are more legit than ours. And obviously His standard was imposed upon us, not Himself, so God violating His own standard is not a criminal act anymore than it is for the museum curator to touch the sealed-off artifact. Also, if Sin is defined as actions which are outside of the will of God, and God does as He wills, then nothing God does can be considered sinful.
And so we see that this argument is ideal for supporting the worship of Hitler, Genghis Khan and Po Pot.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,012
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6/27/2015 6:31:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 11:10:34 PM, iSpy wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

Why would a loving god remain so nebulous and ambiguous that his own followers can't even come to a common consensus regarding his intentions?

He hasn't been either. He established His Church from the beginning. His final fulfillment of His Church (the Catholic Church) is very clear and has spoken with His authority for 2,000 years. There was consensus among Christians for the first 1,500 years of Christianity. It was 500 years ago when, out of their free will, Christians, out of rebellion, began to start their own churches.

So many beliefs and interpretations, yet such steep penalties for disbelieving and misinterpreting. Hardly seems fair, considering that an omnipotent being should easily be able to communicate in a manner that leaves no room for interpretation or margin of error. Don't you think?

The penalties for disbelief require willfully and knowingly rejecting God. It's not applied to the invincibly ignorant. And as for margin of error, again, the Church He established.doesn't error when teaching officially on the subject of faith and morals.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,012
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6/27/2015 6:34:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

"I was raised in a Buddhist temple and when I died I went to the Christian hell because the one christian I've ever met wasn't very persuasive."
That evil piece of refuse chose that eternal torment, I'll say.

Your proposed scenario doesn't fit the criteria I explained above, so he didn't go to Hell.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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6/27/2015 7:44:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 6:34:49 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

"I was raised in a Buddhist temple and when I died I went to the Christian hell because the one christian I've ever met wasn't very persuasive."
That evil piece of refuse chose that eternal torment, I'll say.

Your proposed scenario doesn't fit the criteria I explained above, so he didn't go to Hell.
It speaks directly to your criteria. If he doesn't accept jesus as his saviour after he has been told such, then hell is his eternal paradise.
Can you have this freedom (free will) without evil?
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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6/27/2015 7:57:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The duration of the crime does not correlate with the duration of the punishment. A group of robber can finish a jewelry store hold up in 30 seconds, but the judge won't put them in jail for 30 seconds.

What do you mean by evil? Does the term "evil" exist without God? If so, then what constitutes evil?
Furthermore, theists don't generally believe in the existence of gratuitous evil. The purpose of life isn't to party, if anything you might find that in heaven. God's attributes don't just include being good, but also being wise and just.

At 6/26/2015 8:16:32 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

The deity featured in the Bible isn't even good enough for one to wipe one's feet on if covered in dog poo, let alone being worshipped! Nothing and no one is worthy of worship, imo!

Except your brain; we must blindly follow everything you said because you said it.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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6/27/2015 8:22:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 7:57:29 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
The duration of the crime does not correlate with the duration of the punishment. A group of robber can finish a jewelry store hold up in 30 seconds, but the judge won't put them in jail for 30 seconds.

What do you mean by evil? Does the term "evil" exist without God? If so, then what constitutes evil?
Furthermore, theists don't generally believe in the existence of gratuitous evil. The purpose of life isn't to party, if anything you might find that in heaven. God's attributes don't just include being good, but also being wise and just.

At 6/26/2015 8:16:32 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

The deity featured in the Bible isn't even good enough for one to wipe one's feet on if covered in dog poo, let alone being worshipped! Nothing and no one is worthy of worship, imo!

Except your brain; we must blindly follow everything you said because you said it.

Well at least I exist, whereas it is highly unlikely the evil b*stard featured in the Bible exists, LOL!
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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6/27/2015 9:04:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 7:57:29 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
The duration of the crime does not correlate with the duration of the punishment. A group of robber can finish a jewelry store hold up in 30 seconds, but the judge won't put them in jail for 30 seconds.

What do you mean by evil? Does the term "evil" exist without God? If so, then what constitutes evil?
Furthermore, theists don't generally believe in the existence of gratuitous evil. The purpose of life isn't to party, if anything you might find that in heaven. God's attributes don't just include being good, but also being wise and just.

At 6/26/2015 8:16:32 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

The deity featured in the Bible isn't even good enough for one to wipe one's feet on if covered in dog poo, let alone being worshipped! Nothing and no one is worthy of worship, imo!

Except your brain; we must blindly follow everything you said because you said it.

Hey fang do muslims have free will?
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,012
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6/27/2015 10:04:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 7:44:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:34:49 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

"I was raised in a Buddhist temple and when I died I went to the Christian hell because the one christian I've ever met wasn't very persuasive."
That evil piece of refuse chose that eternal torment, I'll say.

Your proposed scenario doesn't fit the criteria I explained above, so he didn't go to Hell.
It speaks directly to your criteria. If he doesn't accept jesus as his saviour after he has been told such, then hell is his eternal paradise.
Can you have this freedom (free will) without evil?

But in your scenario, the Christian evangelist did a bad job, so the Buddhist didn't receive adequate knowledge of the Christian faith... And therefore wouldn't be held accountable for his rejection, since it was out of unintentional ignorance.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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6/27/2015 10:35:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

Do you not understand the logical absurdity of saying that someone chose an afterlife they didn't believe was real?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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6/27/2015 10:40:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 7:57:29 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
The duration of the crime does not correlate with the duration of the punishment. A group of robber can finish a jewelry store hold up in 30 seconds, but the judge won't put them in jail for 30 seconds.

1. Do you accept that the duration of the punishment should correlate to the seriousness of the punishment?

2. What crime can one possibly commit in a finite universe serious enough to warrant infinite punishment?
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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6/27/2015 10:45:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 10:04:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 7:44:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:34:49 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

"I was raised in a Buddhist temple and when I died I went to the Christian hell because the one christian I've ever met wasn't very persuasive."
That evil piece of refuse chose that eternal torment, I'll say.

Your proposed scenario doesn't fit the criteria I explained above, so he didn't go to Hell.
It speaks directly to your criteria. If he doesn't accept jesus as his saviour after he has been told such, then hell is his eternal paradise.
Can you have this freedom (free will) without evil?

But in your scenario, the Christian evangelist did a bad job, so the Buddhist didn't receive adequate knowledge of the Christian faith... And therefore wouldn't be held accountable for his rejection, since it was out of unintentional ignorance.

Do continue that thought.
The rejection is very intentional, since the christian was inadequate in his preaching of your god's existence.
Since he was given the information (poorly) and he failed to heed it then HELL is his eternal paradise.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,012
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6/27/2015 10:53:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 10:45:06 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:04:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 7:44:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:34:49 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

"I was raised in a Buddhist temple and when I died I went to the Christian hell because the one christian I've ever met wasn't very persuasive."
That evil piece of refuse chose that eternal torment, I'll say.

Your proposed scenario doesn't fit the criteria I explained above, so he didn't go to Hell.
It speaks directly to your criteria. If he doesn't accept jesus as his saviour after he has been told such, then hell is his eternal paradise.
Can you have this freedom (free will) without evil?

But in your scenario, the Christian evangelist did a bad job, so the Buddhist didn't receive adequate knowledge of the Christian faith... And therefore wouldn't be held accountable for his rejection, since it was out of unintentional ignorance.

Do continue that thought.
The rejection is very intentional, since the christian was inadequate in his preaching of your god's existence.
Since he was given the information (poorly) and he failed to heed it then HELL is his eternal paradise.

Please re read my comments above. I referred to unintended ignorance, not unintended rejection. Please don't twist my words.

Because the scenario you offered includes unintended ignorance, the Buddhist does not go to Hell.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,012
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6/27/2015 10:57:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 10:35:56 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

Do you not understand the logical absurdity of saying that someone chose an afterlife they didn't believe was real?

Since I never made such a claim, yes, I do understand the absurdity. Did you miss my comment concerning unintentional ignorance?
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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6/27/2015 11:03:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 10:53:31 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:45:06 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:04:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 7:44:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:34:49 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

"I was raised in a Buddhist temple and when I died I went to the Christian hell because the one christian I've ever met wasn't very persuasive."
That evil piece of refuse chose that eternal torment, I'll say.

Your proposed scenario doesn't fit the criteria I explained above, so he didn't go to Hell.
It speaks directly to your criteria. If he doesn't accept jesus as his saviour after he has been told such, then hell is his eternal paradise.
Can you have this freedom (free will) without evil?

But in your scenario, the Christian evangelist did a bad job, so the Buddhist didn't receive adequate knowledge of the Christian faith... And therefore wouldn't be held accountable for his rejection, since it was out of unintentional ignorance.

Do continue that thought.
The rejection is very intentional, since the christian was inadequate in his preaching of your god's existence.
Since he was given the information (poorly) and he failed to heed it then HELL is his eternal paradise.

Please re read my comments above. I referred to unintended ignorance, not unintended rejection. Please don't twist my words.

Because the scenario you offered includes unintended ignorance, the Buddhist does not go to Hell.
Was the Buddhist given the opportunity to be saved by the incompetent messenger?
Did the incompetent messenger fail in his quest?
Did the Buddhist reject the opportunity of salvation offered by the incompetent messenger because the messenger was in competent? YES.
Does your god punish that Buddhist for eternity for the incompetence of the messenger HE sent?
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,012
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6/27/2015 11:27:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 11:03:51 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:53:31 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:45:06 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:04:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 7:44:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:34:49 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

"I was raised in a Buddhist temple and when I died I went to the Christian hell because the one christian I've ever met wasn't very persuasive."
That evil piece of refuse chose that eternal torment, I'll say.

Your proposed scenario doesn't fit the criteria I explained above, so he didn't go to Hell.
It speaks directly to your criteria. If he doesn't accept jesus as his saviour after he has been told such, then hell is his eternal paradise.
Can you have this freedom (free will) without evil?

But in your scenario, the Christian evangelist did a bad job, so the Buddhist didn't receive adequate knowledge of the Christian faith... And therefore wouldn't be held accountable for his rejection, since it was out of unintentional ignorance.

Do continue that thought.
The rejection is very intentional, since the christian was inadequate in his preaching of your god's existence.
Since he was given the information (poorly) and he failed to heed it then HELL is his eternal paradise.

Please re read my comments above. I referred to unintended ignorance, not unintended rejection. Please don't twist my words.

Because the scenario you offered includes unintended ignorance, the Buddhist does not go to Hell.
Was the Buddhist given the opportunity to be saved by the incompetent messenger?

Not enough of a chance.

Did the incompetent messenger fail in his quest?

Yes.

Did the Buddhist reject the opportunity of salvation offered by the incompetent messenger because the messenger was in competent? YES.

I agree...Yes.

Does your god punish that Buddhist for eternity for the incompetence of the messenger HE sent?

No.

I hope this clears up any confusion.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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6/27/2015 12:33:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 11:27:24 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 11:03:51 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:53:31 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:45:06 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:04:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 7:44:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:34:49 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

"I was raised in a Buddhist temple and when I died I went to the Christian hell because the one christian I've ever met wasn't very persuasive."
That evil piece of refuse chose that eternal torment, I'll say.

Your proposed scenario doesn't fit the criteria I explained above, so he didn't go to Hell.
It speaks directly to your criteria. If he doesn't accept jesus as his saviour after he has been told such, then hell is his eternal paradise.
Can you have this freedom (free will) without evil?

But in your scenario, the Christian evangelist did a bad job, so the Buddhist didn't receive adequate knowledge of the Christian faith... And therefore wouldn't be held accountable for his rejection, since it was out of unintentional ignorance.

Do continue that thought.
The rejection is very intentional, since the christian was inadequate in his preaching of your god's existence.
Since he was given the information (poorly) and he failed to heed it then HELL is his eternal paradise.

Please re read my comments above. I referred to unintended ignorance, not unintended rejection. Please don't twist my words.

Because the scenario you offered includes unintended ignorance, the Buddhist does not go to Hell.
Was the Buddhist given the opportunity to be saved by the incompetent messenger?

Not enough of a chance.

Did the incompetent messenger fail in his quest?

Yes.

Did the Buddhist reject the opportunity of salvation offered by the incompetent messenger because the messenger was in competent? YES.

I agree...Yes.

Does your god punish that Buddhist for eternity for the incompetence of the messenger HE sent?

No.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

So rejecting the salvation of jesus is not hell worthy?
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,012
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6/27/2015 1:20:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 12:33:06 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 11:27:24 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 11:03:51 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:53:31 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:45:06 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:04:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 7:44:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:34:49 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

"I was raised in a Buddhist temple and when I died I went to the Christian hell because the one christian I've ever met wasn't very persuasive."
That evil piece of refuse chose that eternal torment, I'll say.

Your proposed scenario doesn't fit the criteria I explained above, so he didn't go to Hell.
It speaks directly to your criteria. If he doesn't accept jesus as his saviour after he has been told such, then hell is his eternal paradise.
Can you have this freedom (free will) without evil?

But in your scenario, the Christian evangelist did a bad job, so the Buddhist didn't receive adequate knowledge of the Christian faith... And therefore wouldn't be held accountable for his rejection, since it was out of unintentional ignorance.

Do continue that thought.
The rejection is very intentional, since the christian was inadequate in his preaching of your god's existence.
Since he was given the information (poorly) and he failed to heed it then HELL is his eternal paradise.

Please re read my comments above. I referred to unintended ignorance, not unintended rejection. Please don't twist my words.

Because the scenario you offered includes unintended ignorance, the Buddhist does not go to Hell.
Was the Buddhist given the opportunity to be saved by the incompetent messenger?

Not enough of a chance.

Did the incompetent messenger fail in his quest?

Yes.

Did the Buddhist reject the opportunity of salvation offered by the incompetent messenger because the messenger was in competent? YES.

I agree...Yes.

Does your god punish that Buddhist for eternity for the incompetence of the messenger HE sent?

No.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

So rejecting the salvation of jesus is not hell worthy?

It depends if you knowingly, intentionally reject the truth. If you aren't aware that you need to follow Him, then you're not condemned.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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6/27/2015 1:26:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 8:22:44 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 7:57:29 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
The duration of the crime does not correlate with the duration of the punishment. A group of robber can finish a jewelry store hold up in 30 seconds, but the judge won't put them in jail for 30 seconds.

What do you mean by evil? Does the term "evil" exist without God? If so, then what constitutes evil?
Furthermore, theists don't generally believe in the existence of gratuitous evil. The purpose of life isn't to party, if anything you might find that in heaven. God's attributes don't just include being good, but also being wise and just.

At 6/26/2015 8:16:32 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

The deity featured in the Bible isn't even good enough for one to wipe one's feet on if covered in dog poo, let alone being worshipped! Nothing and no one is worthy of worship, imo!

Except your brain; we must blindly follow everything you said because you said it.

Well at least I exist, whereas it is highly unlikely the evil b*stard featured in the Bible exists, LOL!

What and who determines that he would be evil? If he exists, wouldn't be absurd for him to be evil?
Nonetheless, I agree that the bible is an uncredible and contradictory testimony.

A solipsist would beg to differ that you exist, but I digress.

Hey fang do muslims have free will?
Who am I talking to?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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6/27/2015 3:35:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 10:57:58 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 10:35:56 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:27:53 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
You got it all wrong. Those who have gone to Hell chose their eternal destination. As for allowing evil choices, I would argue that freedom is a good thing.

Do you not understand the logical absurdity of saying that someone chose an afterlife they didn't believe was real?

Since I never made such a claim, yes, I do understand the absurdity. Did you miss my comment concerning unintentional ignorance?

You're unintentional ignorance comments makes absolutely no sense. If a person does not believe hell is real, and it turns out hell is real, then that person is ignorant. To be intentionally ignorant about hell is to refuse to ponder the question. I do not know one atheist I have ever met or interacted with that fits into this category, so I have no idea who you think you are actually talking about.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/28/2015 4:40:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:03:10 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
I mean if you sin for 80 years he will punish you for the rest of infinity not only that but he let evil be created.

What is worship?

To me worship is fufilling a purpose, humbly accepting victory or defeat (for all I can do is give my best), and being thankful the God that created the heavens and the earth and all living things in them has made me.

It's not like God deserves or doesn't deserve to be worshipped, you can't worship without God. And you can't help but worship when accepting God exists.