Total Posts:64|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Why are there anti-theists?

ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 8:14:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

It is some of the things are done in the name of the flipping deity, which probably doesn't exist, which is the problem.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 9:33:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

If God isn't real, why do theists exist?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 9:42:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Because of all the theists out there who want to hijack political power to force their belief systems on everyone else. If these people would keep their person beliefs personal and, as Jesus said "pray in their closet', you'd never hear from anti-theists since they'd have nothing to protest.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 9:43:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 9:33:22 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

If God isn't real, why do theists exist?

Just because people believe in something for which there is no evidence doesn't mean the object of their belief exists. The deity is as real as the fairies at the bottom of my garden!
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 10:17:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 9:42:20 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Because of all the theists out there who want to hijack political power to force their belief systems on everyone else. If these people would keep their person beliefs personal and, as Jesus said "pray in their closet', you'd never hear from anti-theists since they'd have nothing to protest.

The people are just doing what they believe God is telling them to do and while yes you should pray in the corner Jesus did speak to crowds.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
tejretics
Posts: 6,089
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 10:24:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

I think it's more the things that are done in the name of God ...
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 10:37:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 10:17:27 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:42:20 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Because of all the theists out there who want to hijack political power to force their belief systems on everyone else. If these people would keep their person beliefs personal and, as Jesus said "pray in their closet', you'd never hear from anti-theists since they'd have nothing to protest.

The people are just doing what they believe God is telling them to do and while yes you should pray in the corner Jesus did speak to crowds.

He spoke to people, he did not attempt to legislate or rule them by force of law. He never attempted to compel them to live as he did, he was a living example for them to emulate. He was the exemplar of grace and humility, denying none their dignity nor concerning himself with matters of government. If every Christian lived as their exemplar did then no atheist would ever complain about Christianity.
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 10:39:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 10:37:41 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:17:27 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:42:20 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Because of all the theists out there who want to hijack political power to force their belief systems on everyone else. If these people would keep their person beliefs personal and, as Jesus said "pray in their closet', you'd never hear from anti-theists since they'd have nothing to protest.

The people are just doing what they believe God is telling them to do and while yes you should pray in the corner Jesus did speak to crowds.

He spoke to people, he did not attempt to legislate or rule them by force of law. He never attempted to compel them to live as he did, he was a living example for them to emulate. He was the exemplar of grace and humility, denying none their dignity nor concerning himself with matters of government. If every Christian lived as their exemplar did then no atheist would ever complain about Christianity.

Yeah, lots of Christians are idiots. But those who aren't still feel the wrath of the anti-theist.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 10:54:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 10:39:23 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:37:41 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:17:27 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:42:20 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Because of all the theists out there who want to hijack political power to force their belief systems on everyone else. If these people would keep their person beliefs personal and, as Jesus said "pray in their closet', you'd never hear from anti-theists since they'd have nothing to protest.

The people are just doing what they believe God is telling them to do and while yes you should pray in the corner Jesus did speak to crowds.

He spoke to people, he did not attempt to legislate or rule them by force of law. He never attempted to compel them to live as he did, he was a living example for them to emulate. He was the exemplar of grace and humility, denying none their dignity nor concerning himself with matters of government. If every Christian lived as their exemplar did then no atheist would ever complain about Christianity.

Yeah, lots of Christians are idiots. But those who aren't still feel the wrath of the anti-theist.

I can't speak for anti-theists since I am not one, at least not with any authority. What I can say after associating with a few is that they feel religion is a dangerous and irrational point of view that needs to be eliminated. They feel that the entire religious community is deluded and should be brought 'out of the darkness' of a primitive belief system and into the light of human reason that has provided us with so much insight into how the universe works and provided us with tools to do things we could not conceive of before.

While I don't necessarily agree that religion should be eliminated, I do agree that it is a glorified, primitive way to view the world and people would be better off without it in the long run.
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 10:57:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 10:54:35 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:39:23 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:37:41 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:17:27 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:42:20 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Because of all the theists out there who want to hijack political power to force their belief systems on everyone else. If these people would keep their person beliefs personal and, as Jesus said "pray in their closet', you'd never hear from anti-theists since they'd have nothing to protest.

The people are just doing what they believe God is telling them to do and while yes you should pray in the corner Jesus did speak to crowds.

He spoke to people, he did not attempt to legislate or rule them by force of law. He never attempted to compel them to live as he did, he was a living example for them to emulate. He was the exemplar of grace and humility, denying none their dignity nor concerning himself with matters of government. If every Christian lived as their exemplar did then no atheist would ever complain about Christianity.

Yeah, lots of Christians are idiots. But those who aren't still feel the wrath of the anti-theist.

I can't speak for anti-theists since I am not one, at least not with any authority. What I can say after associating with a few is that they feel religion is a dangerous and irrational point of view that needs to be eliminated. They feel that the entire religious community is deluded and should be brought 'out of the darkness' of a primitive belief system and into the light of human reason that has provided us with so much insight into how the universe works and provided us with tools to do things we could not conceive of before.

While I don't necessarily agree that religion should be eliminated, I do agree that it is a glorified, primitive way to view the world and people would be better off without it in the long run.

Yes in the past religion has caused multi wars but even before that it created communities. Without religion we would be in the dark ages most probably.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 11:22:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Anti-theists exist as a response to theism--hence "Anti". The reasoning here is, honestly, rather nonsensical considering there are consequences of belief.

Imagine, for a moment, that someone was selling a cancer cure. It doesn't work. But millions of people spend money to buy it--some make great sacrifices just to get it. In such a case, there would be anti-quackers, too, because they would believe that the belief is harmful.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 11:33:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 11:22:20 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Anti-theists exist as a response to theism--hence "Anti". The reasoning here is, honestly, rather nonsensical considering there are consequences of belief.

Imagine, for a moment, that someone was selling a cancer cure. It doesn't work. But millions of people spend money to buy it--some make great sacrifices just to get it. In such a case, there would be anti-quackers, too, because they would believe that the belief is harmful.

A better imagination would be this. Imagine the world is pitch black and the world were about to end but some people are everyone tickets to go to a place called "Heaven" if they believe it exists . Now all the scientists think that that couldn't be true cause the whole world will end so they speak out making people who have gotten a ticket throw it away. Now when the world ends there are two things that could happen 1. The world would end and the scientists would be right but nothing would change or 2. The world will end but there is Heaven meaning the scientists were wrong and even caused some people to throw tier tickets.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 11:36:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 11:33:17 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 11:22:20 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Anti-theists exist as a response to theism--hence "Anti". The reasoning here is, honestly, rather nonsensical considering there are consequences of belief.

Imagine, for a moment, that someone was selling a cancer cure. It doesn't work. But millions of people spend money to buy it--some make great sacrifices just to get it. In such a case, there would be anti-quackers, too, because they would believe that the belief is harmful.

A better imagination would be this. Imagine the world is pitch black and the world were about to end but some people are everyone tickets to go to a place called "Heaven" if they believe it exists . Now all the scientists think that that couldn't be true cause the whole world will end so they speak out making people who have gotten a ticket throw it away. Now when the world ends there are two things that could happen 1. The world would end and the scientists would be right but nothing would change or 2. The world will end but there is Heaven meaning the scientists were wrong and even caused some people to throw tier tickets.

Except you're ignoring that, to continue your analogy, there are consequences to getting/having that "ticket". If there's no value to the ticket, AND a cost to have the ticket, then it rather makes sense to advocate throwing it away. The elements of your argument which are analogous to Pascal's Wager are as invalid as the Wager itself, too. For your analogy to hold, there'd have to be dozens of people handing out DIFFERENT tickets, each one contradicting and precluding the other, and each one with a cost to have and hold, in a circumstance where it appears that none of the tickets have value.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 11:38:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 10:57:30 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:54:35 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:39:23 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:37:41 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:17:27 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:42:20 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Because of all the theists out there who want to hijack political power to force their belief systems on everyone else. If these people would keep their person beliefs personal and, as Jesus said "pray in their closet', you'd never hear from anti-theists since they'd have nothing to protest.

The people are just doing what they believe God is telling them to do and while yes you should pray in the corner Jesus did speak to crowds.

He spoke to people, he did not attempt to legislate or rule them by force of law. He never attempted to compel them to live as he did, he was a living example for them to emulate. He was the exemplar of grace and humility, denying none their dignity nor concerning himself with matters of government. If every Christian lived as their exemplar did then no atheist would ever complain about Christianity.

Yeah, lots of Christians are idiots. But those who aren't still feel the wrath of the anti-theist.

I can't speak for anti-theists since I am not one, at least not with any authority. What I can say after associating with a few is that they feel religion is a dangerous and irrational point of view that needs to be eliminated. They feel that the entire religious community is deluded and should be brought 'out of the darkness' of a primitive belief system and into the light of human reason that has provided us with so much insight into how the universe works and provided us with tools to do things we could not conceive of before.

While I don't necessarily agree that religion should be eliminated, I do agree that it is a glorified, primitive way to view the world and people would be better off without it in the long run.

Yes in the past religion has caused multi wars but even before that it created communities. Without religion we would be in the dark ages most probably.

Are you kidding? The church basically ran the world during the dark ages. It wasn't until the Reformation and the Renaissance that real learning began. Communities weren't caused by religion, they were the result of men learning to cultivate food and the strength in numbers of the community. Without religion we would, most likely, be a lot more technically and socially advanced than we are today.
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 11:54:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 11:36:31 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 11:33:17 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 11:22:20 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Anti-theists exist as a response to theism--hence "Anti". The reasoning here is, honestly, rather nonsensical considering there are consequences of belief.

Imagine, for a moment, that someone was selling a cancer cure. It doesn't work. But millions of people spend money to buy it--some make great sacrifices just to get it. In such a case, there would be anti-quackers, too, because they would believe that the belief is harmful.

A better imagination would be this. Imagine the world is pitch black and the world were about to end but some people are everyone tickets to go to a place called "Heaven" if they believe it exists . Now all the scientists think that that couldn't be true cause the whole world will end so they speak out making people who have gotten a ticket throw it away. Now when the world ends there are two things that could happen 1. The world would end and the scientists would be right but nothing would change or 2. The world will end but there is Heaven meaning the scientists were wrong and even caused some people to throw tier tickets.

Except you're ignoring that, to continue your analogy, there are consequences to getting/having that "ticket". If there's no value to the ticket, AND a cost to have the ticket, then it rather makes sense to advocate throwing it away. The elements of your argument which are analogous to Pascal's Wager are as invalid as the Wager itself, too. For your analogy to hold, there'd have to be dozens of people handing out DIFFERENT tickets, each one contradicting and precluding the other, and each one with a cost to have and hold, in a circumstance where it appears that none of the tickets have value.

It's free. The tickets are given. What's Pascal's Wager?
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
ClashnBoom
Posts: 886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 11:57:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 11:38:51 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:57:30 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:54:35 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:39:23 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:37:41 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:17:27 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:42:20 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Because of all the theists out there who want to hijack political power to force their belief systems on everyone else. If these people would keep their person beliefs personal and, as Jesus said "pray in their closet', you'd never hear from anti-theists since they'd have nothing to protest.

The people are just doing what they believe God is telling them to do and while yes you should pray in the corner Jesus did speak to crowds.

He spoke to people, he did not attempt to legislate or rule them by force of law. He never attempted to compel them to live as he did, he was a living example for them to emulate. He was the exemplar of grace and humility, denying none their dignity nor concerning himself with matters of government. If every Christian lived as their exemplar did then no atheist would ever complain about Christianity.

Yeah, lots of Christians are idiots. But those who aren't still feel the wrath of the anti-theist.

I can't speak for anti-theists since I am not one, at least not with any authority. What I can say after associating with a few is that they feel religion is a dangerous and irrational point of view that needs to be eliminated. They feel that the entire religious community is deluded and should be brought 'out of the darkness' of a primitive belief system and into the light of human reason that has provided us with so much insight into how the universe works and provided us with tools to do things we could not conceive of before.

While I don't necessarily agree that religion should be eliminated, I do agree that it is a glorified, primitive way to view the world and people would be better off without it in the long run.

Yes in the past religion has caused multi wars but even before that it created communities. Without religion we would be in the dark ages most probably.

Are you kidding? The church basically ran the world during the dark ages. It wasn't until the Reformation and the Renaissance that real learning began. Communities weren't caused by religion, they were the result of men learning to cultivate food and the strength in numbers of the community. Without religion we would, most likely, be a lot more technically and socially advanced than we are today.

Religion caused people to go together. Spain traveled the world for three G's God. Gold. And Glory. Religion gave people hope.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 12:00:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 11:54:17 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 11:36:31 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 11:33:17 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 11:22:20 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Anti-theists exist as a response to theism--hence "Anti". The reasoning here is, honestly, rather nonsensical considering there are consequences of belief.

Imagine, for a moment, that someone was selling a cancer cure. It doesn't work. But millions of people spend money to buy it--some make great sacrifices just to get it. In such a case, there would be anti-quackers, too, because they would believe that the belief is harmful.

A better imagination would be this. Imagine the world is pitch black and the world were about to end but some people are everyone tickets to go to a place called "Heaven" if they believe it exists . Now all the scientists think that that couldn't be true cause the whole world will end so they speak out making people who have gotten a ticket throw it away. Now when the world ends there are two things that could happen 1. The world would end and the scientists would be right but nothing would change or 2. The world will end but there is Heaven meaning the scientists were wrong and even caused some people to throw tier tickets.

Except you're ignoring that, to continue your analogy, there are consequences to getting/having that "ticket". If there's no value to the ticket, AND a cost to have the ticket, then it rather makes sense to advocate throwing it away. The elements of your argument which are analogous to Pascal's Wager are as invalid as the Wager itself, too. For your analogy to hold, there'd have to be dozens of people handing out DIFFERENT tickets, each one contradicting and precluding the other, and each one with a cost to have and hold, in a circumstance where it appears that none of the tickets have value.

It's free. The tickets are given.

Well, that's just plainly false. Do you really not recognize that religous belief has consequences? How about, to pick an example at random, circumcision--a requirement for Jewish males. Or the eucharist. Or confession. Or halal eating. Every religion has rules and those rules must be abided by in order to get your "ticket".

What's Pascal's Wager?

https://en.wikipedia.org...'s_Wager
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 12:01:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The link is broken due to how DDO parses links. If you just click on it, it'll only take you to Pascal himself--you'll have to copy the rest of the link that DDO truncated or you can google search Pascal's Wager.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 12:02:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

So?
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 12:25:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 11:57:01 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 11:38:51 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:57:30 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:54:35 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:39:23 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:37:41 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 10:17:27 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
At 6/26/2015 9:42:20 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

Because of all the theists out there who want to hijack political power to force their belief systems on everyone else. If these people would keep their person beliefs personal and, as Jesus said "pray in their closet', you'd never hear from anti-theists since they'd have nothing to protest.

The people are just doing what they believe God is telling them to do and while yes you should pray in the corner Jesus did speak to crowds.

He spoke to people, he did not attempt to legislate or rule them by force of law. He never attempted to compel them to live as he did, he was a living example for them to emulate. He was the exemplar of grace and humility, denying none their dignity nor concerning himself with matters of government. If every Christian lived as their exemplar did then no atheist would ever complain about Christianity.

Yeah, lots of Christians are idiots. But those who aren't still feel the wrath of the anti-theist.

I can't speak for anti-theists since I am not one, at least not with any authority. What I can say after associating with a few is that they feel religion is a dangerous and irrational point of view that needs to be eliminated. They feel that the entire religious community is deluded and should be brought 'out of the darkness' of a primitive belief system and into the light of human reason that has provided us with so much insight into how the universe works and provided us with tools to do things we could not conceive of before.

While I don't necessarily agree that religion should be eliminated, I do agree that it is a glorified, primitive way to view the world and people would be better off without it in the long run.

Yes in the past religion has caused multi wars but even before that it created communities. Without religion we would be in the dark ages most probably.

Are you kidding? The church basically ran the world during the dark ages. It wasn't until the Reformation and the Renaissance that real learning began. Communities weren't caused by religion, they were the result of men learning to cultivate food and the strength in numbers of the community. Without religion we would, most likely, be a lot more technically and socially advanced than we are today.

Religion caused people to go together. Spain traveled the world for three G's God. Gold. And Glory. Religion gave people hope.

Bull. It was for riches, for a trading route to the Indies that Columbus went. The gold was a fortuitous circumstance, nothing more. God went along because the Catholic Church was the official religion of the Spanish Empire as well as many others and perforce sent along their missionaries. Conversion by force followed so no, it didn't offer the indigenous peoples of the Americas hope. It destroyed their culture along wit the greed of the European kings who thought they had the right to take whatever the hell they wanted.
dan40000000
Posts: 19
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 12:39:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Are you kidding? The church basically ran the world during the dark ages. It wasn't until the Reformation and the Renaissance that real learning began. Communities weren't caused by religion, they were the result of men learning to cultivate food and the strength in numbers of the community. Without religion we would, most likely, be a lot more technically and socially advanced than we are today.

FACT CHECK:

Real learning? Advancement? Are you serious? According to many scientist the current technological boom began in the mid-1800's which is way after the dark ages. Which was years after the state was free from religions influence. Watch this video https://www.youtube.com...

In the "Dark" ages Universities began something we still practice today weird. Your anti-religion is clouding your brain. You have this mis-guided picture of the Dark ages but open your mind and learn all that they accomplished then. There are many things we still use today that was invented in the Dark ages pretty impressive if you ask me.

You can hate religion all you want but you might want to find another example to hate them because this one clearly doesn't check out.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 1:03:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 12:39:24 PM, dan40000000 wrote:
Are you kidding? The church basically ran the world during the dark ages. It wasn't until the Reformation and the Renaissance that real learning began. Communities weren't caused by religion, they were the result of men learning to cultivate food and the strength in numbers of the community. Without religion we would, most likely, be a lot more technically and socially advanced than we are today.

FACT CHECK:

Real learning? Advancement? Are you serious? According to many scientist the current technological boom began in the mid-1800's which is way after the dark ages. Which was years after the state was free from religions influence. Watch this video https://www.youtube.com...

In the "Dark" ages Universities began something we still practice today weird. Your anti-religion is clouding your brain. You have this mis-guided picture of the Dark ages but open your mind and learn all that they accomplished then. There are many things we still use today that was invented in the Dark ages pretty impressive if you ask me.

You can hate religion all you want but you might want to find another example to hate them because this one clearly doesn't check out.

Please provide examples of what was invented during the dark ages that we still use today?
dan40000000
Posts: 19
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 1:13:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

Well, that's just plainly false. Do you really not recognize that religous belief has consequences? How about, to pick an example at random, circumcision--a requirement for Jewish males. Or the eucharist. Or confession. Or halal eating. Every religion has rules and those rules must be abided by in order to get your "ticket".


Yea since anti-religion usually promotes having sex with whoever you want which has so far lead to the deaths of 65 million people by HIV. Religion would have prevented that whole thing. Interesting I can't think of a single event or issue that lead to that many deaths by a religious group. Nazi Germany was anti-religion and killed millions of people. Russia was very anti-religion and killed millions of people almost 33 million actually, That is a high death toll. Then you throw in China which is also very anti-religion and promotes atheism which has millions of deaths on it's hands. (not to mention something odd that even in a super atheist culture they sure have a huge interest in religion) Not to mention that Abortion is murder if you believe in individual human rights (if you don't then it's not murder because no one has rights to life) then you are accounting for another 1 to 2 billion murders on top of everything else.

So religious beliefs have bad consequences? possibly but let's compare the alternative
Does atheism have bad consequences? Most definitely in fact way worse than any religious belief has. The two examples of bad atrocities in the name of religion is the Spanish inquisition which was real nasty no doubt about that. And terrorist attacks in the name of religion. Neither of which compare or even come close to the mass murders and deaths as a result of atheist beliefs. Which side would you rather support ?
dan40000000
Posts: 19
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 1:29:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

Please provide examples of what was invented during the dark ages that we still use today?

I gave you one already. The University a place where people can congregate and learn and receive diplomas that certify they are experts in something. That system has remained largely unchanged from it's inception.

The plough that amazingly we still use (the general idea of it) just the machines are much better but the idea is the exact same.

Liquor which is made almost the exact same way. I don't think a product has more impact on humanity currently than alcohol

Eye glasses which we still use today for the most part. There are contacts that are different but glasses still remain a huge part of society and are the exact same. Plus contacts are a recent invention and same with eye surgery but really glasses still have the majority use.

The printing press which still has an impact today but is finally getting faded out by online material so that won't be as relevant in the next 20 years but that doesn't take away it's important use up until now. Imagine a world without the press?

Water mills had a huge impact for a long time but are about useless now days but again that doesn't take away the fact that farms, carpenters, black smiths, big corporations all use this invention and the economy in the late 1800's grew a lot because of this invention we credit the use of steel and it's production to the mill which then lead to big cities exploding in the later 1800's

The compass was also invented and again has finally been replaced by GPS technology but had a huge impact on civilization up until the 1990's.

Do you want me to keep going? Dark ages is more a reference to the plague which was real nasty for a few years but other than that it was hardly dark. If religion oppressed technology and learning it is weird that Universities and the printing press would be invented since no other inventions has increased knowledge and education than those to until the internet which came about so long after the dark ages.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 1:31:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 1:13:14 PM, dan40000000 wrote:

Well, that's just plainly false. Do you really not recognize that religous belief has consequences? How about, to pick an example at random, circumcision--a requirement for Jewish males. Or the eucharist. Or confession. Or halal eating. Every religion has rules and those rules must be abided by in order to get your "ticket".


Yea since anti-religion usually promotes having sex with whoever you want which has so far lead to the deaths of 65 million people by HIV. Religion would have prevented that whole thing. Interesting I can't think of a single event or issue that lead to that many deaths by a religious group. Nazi Germany was anti-religion and killed millions of people. Russia was very anti-religion and killed millions of people almost 33 million actually, That is a high death toll. Then you throw in China which is also very anti-religion and promotes atheism which has millions of deaths on it's hands. (not to mention something odd that even in a super atheist culture they sure have a huge interest in religion) Not to mention that Abortion is murder if you believe in individual human rights (if you don't then it's not murder because no one has rights to life) then you are accounting for another 1 to 2 billion murders on top of everything else.

So religious beliefs have bad consequences? possibly but let's compare the alternative
Does atheism have bad consequences? Most definitely in fact way worse than any religious belief has. The two examples of bad atrocities in the name of religion is the Spanish inquisition which was real nasty no doubt about that. And terrorist attacks in the name of religion. Neither of which compare or even come close to the mass murders and deaths as a result of atheist beliefs. Which side would you rather support ?

You're confusing acts done specifically because of a belief and acts done by those who hold a belief. There have never been any atrocities (so far as I'm aware) committed to satisfy some demand of atheism. That would be impossible, since atheism doesn't demand anything. But there are plenty of atrocities committed because "god" or the tenets of some religion supposedly demand them. The deaths you ascribe to atheism in Russia and China are the results of fights for power. And I have no idea why you include Nazi Germany in your post, since they went after atheists, too.

To put it another way, plenty of religious and non-religious people commit acts of violence. But it would be foolish to blame religion, or lack there of, for those actions unless the individuals specifically cited their beliefs as the impetus for their crimes. Someone who bombs an abortion clinic because he says his god demands that he defend the unborn is doing it (at least in part) because of his religion. But someone like Timothy McVeigh bombed a building because of his political views, not because he was Catholic.
dan40000000
Posts: 19
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 1:54:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

You're confusing acts done specifically because of a belief and acts done by those who hold a belief. There have never been any atrocities (so far as I'm aware) committed to satisfy some demand of atheism. That would be impossible, since atheism doesn't demand anything. But there are plenty of atrocities committed because "god" or the tenets of some religion supposedly demand them. The deaths you ascribe to atheism in Russia and China are the results of fights for power. And I have no idea why you include Nazi Germany in your post, since they went after atheists, too.

To put it another way, plenty of religious and non-religious people commit acts of violence. But it would be foolish to blame religion, or lack there of, for those actions unless the individuals specifically cited their beliefs as the impetus for their crimes. Someone who bombs an abortion clinic because he says his god demands that he defend the unborn is doing it (at least in part) because of his religion. But someone like Timothy McVeigh bombed a building because of his political views, not because he was Catholic.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn would disagree with you when he offered the following explanation:
"Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: 'Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.'
Since then I have spend well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: 'Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.

Theodore Beale also notes concerning atheism and mass murder:
"Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism " .there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm " These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao "
The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.
The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity"s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand.
Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation!

Stalin officially adopted the Russian Communist Party"s stance on religion, claiming atheism and continuing the tradition of teaching atheism in schools and propagating the idea that religion was only damaging to a perfect communist society. Stalin even took it further than his predecessor, Lenin, and initiated a nationwide campaign to destroy churches and religious property and even persecute and kill church officials.

As you can see you murdered people not for political power (which he already had) but to get rid of religion which is why he forced atheism to be taught in all the schools. Seeing how Russia turned out is an example of what happens to a country that is taught straight atheism. what is interesting is that even though this was taught hard core there is still only a 13% atheist percent in Russia compared to the 2-5% in the USA that isn't much better for a country that has been deeply religious. So since all these people had atheism pounded into them how is only 13% of the population atheist? It is very natural for people to believe in God (which isn't itself evidence for God obviously) but it is something to think about.

So you see it's not more that people murder people in the name of atheism (which still has happened a lot) but more that atheism has lead to all these deaths like HIV for example. It's not that atheist's said we want to kill 64 million people with HIV but as a result of beliefs they support that's what happened. That is just a result of people ignoring the commandment of God to have sex with your wife and no one esle. Now whether you believe religion is made up and a joke or not 64 million deaths to HIV is a lot. And if people would have practiced religion none of them should have died.

So looking back on history you still support that people should have had the right to sleep with whoever they wanted? I think it is sad when people die hence I just don't think the atheist ideology is productive to a healthy society. That is not to say all religions are cool too because that's not true but if you are going to give religions crap for suppressing humanity I think it's ironic that the atheistic beliefs have caused way more problems.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 2:00:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 1:13:14 PM, dan40000000 wrote:

Well, that's just plainly false. Do you really not recognize that religous belief has consequences? How about, to pick an example at random, circumcision--a requirement for Jewish males. Or the eucharist. Or confession. Or halal eating. Every religion has rules and those rules must be abided by in order to get your "ticket".


Yea since anti-religion usually promotes having sex with whoever you want which has so far lead to the deaths of 65 million people by HIV.

Actually, it's religion's refusal to acknowledge effective prophylaxis that has caused that. The Catholic church, in particular, has caused millions of deaths in Africa.

Religion would have prevented that whole thing.

Actually, no; again, I would lay the deaths at the feet of religion. Because those people are religious--and so don't wear condoms, because they've been told it's immoral. Which causes HIV to spread.

Interesting I can't think of a single event or issue that lead to that many deaths by a religious group. Nazi Germany was anti-religion and killed millions of people.

The fact that you're willfully ignorant of the fact that Nazi Germany was explicitly religious demonstrates that you don't actually have enough knowledge on this topic to have your position be taken seriously, or you're a troll.

The SS had "Gott mit uns" on their belt buckles. The hatred of Jews was linked directly to religion. Now, there actually is a case about whether Hitler was truly religious. That case is irrelevant to the fact that Nazi Germany was expressly and explicitly religious, and pretending otherwise is nonsensically dishonest.

Russia was very anti-religion and killed millions of people almost 33 million actually, That is a high death toll. Then you throw in China which is also very anti-religion and promotes atheism which has millions of deaths on it's hands.

I don't blame, for example, Christians for the deaths caused by Muslims, or vice-versa. I am not a communist, so pointing to communists as though they indict anything regarding me is utterly nonsensical. Please, again, become educated and less bigoted--until then your position is nonsense.

(not to mention something odd that even in a super atheist culture they sure have a huge interest in religion)

Contradictory, isn't it.

Not to mention that Abortion is murder if you believe in individual human rights

No. It's only "murder" if you want to pretend that things without brains have consciousness despite the lack of evidence for, and plenty of evidence against, the proposition, and if you don't understand how rights work.

So religious beliefs have bad consequences? possibly but let's compare the alternative
Does atheism have bad consequences? Most definitely in fact way worse than any religious belief has. The two examples of bad atrocities in the name of religion is the Spanish inquisition which was real nasty no doubt about that. And terrorist attacks in the name of religion. Neither of which compare or even come close to the mass murders and deaths as a result of atheist beliefs. Which side would you rather support ?

I would rather support the truth. Appealing to consequences is a nonsense argument when searching for truth. Especially when the consequences you point to are premised in ignorance and bigotry.

Atheism does not lead to bad consequences. What DOES is ideologies, in particular ones like Communism.

The consequences I'm talking about are the ones that are inherent TO the religions. There are consequences that are necessary elements of, say, Catholicism. There are NO negative consequences to atheism. If you have another ideology on top of it, there are probably consequences to it--such as in the case of communism. But it's profoundly foolish to spout off about provably wrong claims and to lay at the feet of "no god" the problems of a political ideology like Communism. It shows a sad lack of critical thinking which, coupled with your demonstrated ignorance, makes productive discussion difficult.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 3:16:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 8:04:54 AM, ClashnBoom wrote:
Why do you have to exist? If God isn't real then who cares. We will end up the same way.

While I personally do not agree with anti-theists, I can understand why they would come about. They see the large influence that religion has on our culture, and deem it to be a negative one. So they come to the conclusion that religion in itself is negative, and they make an effort to minimize its power and influence. I personally do not identify as anti-theist, for the name implies that I am opposed to those who are theists, which I am not.
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2015 4:07:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/26/2015 1:29:06 PM, dan40000000 wrote:

Please provide examples of what was invented during the dark ages that we still use today?


I gave you one already. The University a place where people can congregate and learn and receive diplomas that certify they are experts in something. That system has remained largely unchanged from it's inception.

All religious since the Church was deemed the source of knowledge. The fox guarding the henhouse.

The plough that amazingly we still use (the general idea of it) just the machines are much better but the idea is the exact same.

"The word must have originally referred to the wheeled heavy plough, which was common in Roman northwestern Europe by the a.d. 5th century." Before Medieval times.

Liquor which is made almost the exact same way. I don't think a product has more impact on humanity currently than alcohol

Alcohol was already common. What you are referring to is the distillation of alcohol which dates back to the 12th century.

Eye glasses which we still use today for the most part. There are contacts that are different but glasses still remain a huge part of society and are the exact same. Plus contacts are a recent invention and same with eye surgery but really glasses still have the majority use.

Late 12th century.

The printing press which still has an impact today but is finally getting faded out by online material so that won't be as relevant in the next 20 years but that doesn't take away it's important use up until now. Imagine a world without the press?

Johannes Gutenberg, 1440.

Water mills had a huge impact for a long time but are about useless now days but again that doesn't take away the fact that farms, carpenters, black smiths, big corporations all use this invention and the economy in the late 1800's grew a lot because of this invention we credit the use of steel and it's production to the mill which then lead to big cities exploding in the later 1800's

The earliest evidence of a water-driven wheel is probably the Perachora wheel (3rd century BC), in Greece:

The compass was also invented and again has finally been replaced by GPS technology but had a huge impact on civilization up until the 1990's.

The magnetic compass was first invented as a device for divination as early as the Chinese Han Dynasty (since about 206 BC) and later adopted for navigation by the Song Dynasty Chinese during the 11th century. The use of a compass is recorded in Western Europe and in Persia around the early 13th century.


Do you want me to keep going? Dark ages is more a reference to the plague which was real nasty for a few years but other than that it was hardly dark. If religion oppressed technology and learning it is weird that Universities and the printing press would be invented since no other inventions has increased knowledge and education than those to until the internet which came about so long after the dark ages.

It's obvious that you did not thoroughly research your response. Many of these principles and devices predate the Middle Ages, some were developed just as the world was coming out of that period, and at least one was invented almost a century later.

You are correct about the reference to the Dark Ages, however, that does not in any way excuse the way that religion has suppressed knowledge and fought progress in almost ever phase of human history once it reached a level where it could exert influence in government affairs. It continues to do so today here and around the world.