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Exodus

Paradox_7
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6/27/2015 4:37:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I made a thread about "faith" last week, and some how or another we ended up talking about the historicity of the Bible; among other truth/accuracy issues.

I suggested making a separate thread where we could discuss some of these obstacles more pointedly. I thought anyone willing to contribute could post a few discussable historical issues within the scriptures.

I understand B0HICA(?) started a similar thread, but it unfortunately it took a nose dive in quality discussion almost immediately...imo.

So if folks could respect the thread and be ready for productive conversation, it'd be much appreciated. If not... can't do anything to stop you...lol

If any one is interested in presenting a case against the Exodus I'd like to hear it.

Ex:
- Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt
- Existence of Jesus..
- Existence of David, etc
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
celestialtorahteacher
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6/27/2015 6:10:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Israeli archeologist Israel Finkelstein and historian Neil Silberman have fully debunked the Bible as historical recording of ancient Jews. The Bible Unearthed at https://www.youtube.com... tells how ancient priests of Judah invented myths to promote their tribal religion and god, one of the major myths being "Moses and the Exodus", character and events created to offset real history of ancient Israelites in Egypt as part of the failed Hyksos invaders from Canaan. Again archeology exposed the historical truth while Judah priests and their Torah/Tanakh covered it up with a political lie, a whopper. Archeology findings at the ancient capitol of the Hyksos Shepherd Kings in Avris, Egypt showed Israelites living there based on same dwelling design used in Canaan by Israelites there. Israelite were kicked out of Egypt along with Hyksos and instead of telling that historical truth of Israelite humiliation, they invented the whole Exodus crap instead which was swallowed hook, line, and sinker by Pauline Christianity and is still believed by billions today. And again archeology blows away the myth of Hebrews held as slaves to build Egyptian monuments as dna findings of archeological digs of actual Egyptian monument workers showed them to be most all Egyptians glad to work on building religious monuments just like all religious people do when building their places of worship.

I teach Celestial Torah Christianity because the Bible can no longer be used as is for spiritual authority.
Paradox_7
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6/27/2015 6:36:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 6:10:39 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
I teach Celestial Torah Christianity because the Bible can no longer be used as is for spiritual authority.

That sounds promising. I'll have to add it to the queue of books on the list, but in the mean time, can you present a case against the Exodus account with some sort of data; evidence, sources, etc?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
celestialtorahteacher
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6/27/2015 11:32:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I used to have some comments posted by one of the archeologists about the Israelite dwelling design in Avris, Egypt matching those of Israelites in Canaan. The Hyksos ruled for about 200 years before being driven out with Israelites along with them. I can speculate from the time lines of Hyksos, Akhenaton's failed monotheism, and the Moses and Exodus story that Israelites teamed up with exiled Egyptian Akhenaton priests in Canaan and that eventually later Hebrews put this all together in monotheistic Judaism that is actually crammed with pagan gods and pagan ideas become "Hebrewized".
Skepticalone
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6/28/2015 12:21:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 4:37:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I made a thread about "faith" last week, and some how or another we ended up talking about the historicity of the Bible; among other truth/accuracy issues.

I suggested making a separate thread where we could discuss some of these obstacles more pointedly. I thought anyone willing to contribute could post a few discussable historical issues within the scriptures.

Ripped from one of my debates - http://www.debate.org...

What kind of evidence would the destruction Sodom and Gomorrah leave behind? First off, we would expect contemporary writings about the destruction of two cities. In other words, eyewitnesses who tell us about this destruction and what they saw. There are none. The Bible tells us these cities were destroyed with fire and brimstone.

Genesis 19: 24
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven,

Brimstone is another name for sulfur, and it is quite easy to spot due to its yellow color. So is there evidence for the existence of cities destroyed in this manner? No. Archaeologists have been searching for these cities for almost a hundred years and have found no trace of any cities destroyed with brimstone. We"re striking out here " no evidence.

How about we move on to the Exodus? We would expect to find Egyptian records mentioning the death of a pharaoh or the death of every first born in the land. There are none. We would expect to find contemporary records from a neighboring land. There are none. We would expect to find a lot of evidence of millions of people living (and dying) in the desert for 40 years, but again there is no evidence. In fact archaeologists have given up on searching for evidence of such a large group of people ever roaming the Sinai desert.

"The archaeological evidence does not support the story told in the Book of Exodus and most archaeologists have abandoned the investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit"

https://en.wikipedia.org...

How about the Flood which is said to have occurred 4000-5000 years ago? If the flood occurred, what kind of evidence would we expect to find? Well, there would be massive amount of evidence. We would expect to find a relatively recent fossil layer which included modern animals (zebras, lions, tigers, wolves, giraffes, etc.) and modern humans. This fossil layer should be worldwide. In addition to this we, should expect to find a worldwide layer of pebbles, boulders, and sludge moved about by the flood. What do we find? Nothing like this " there is no fossil layer that is anything like this, and there is no sludge layer. So again, we have struck out.

I hope this helps.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

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What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Paradox_7
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6/28/2015 12:56:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 12:21:07 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
What kind of evidence would the destruction Sodom and Gomorrah leave behind? First off, we would expect contemporary writings about the destruction of two cities. In other words, eyewitnesses who tell us about this destruction and what they saw. There are none. The Bible tells us these cities were destroyed with fire and brimstone.

Why would that be expected? According to the scriptures only Lot and his daughters survived the destruction. What do we know about the people of that region and how well they kept record, or on what they kept records with? Who could have witnessed it?

Genesis 19: 24
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven,

Brimstone is another name for sulfur, and it is quite easy to spot due to its yellow color. So is there evidence for the existence of cities destroyed in this manner? No. Archaeologists have been searching for these cities for almost a hundred years and have found no trace of any cities destroyed with brimstone. We"re striking out here " no evidence.

Sources please.

One thing at a time. We'll move on to exodus after we're through with this.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
dee-em
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6/28/2015 1:28:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 4:37:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

If any one is interested in presenting a case against the Exodus I'd like to hear it.

What evidence would you expect for the non-existence of something?
Paradox_7
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6/28/2015 1:53:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 1:28:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/27/2015 4:37:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

If any one is interested in presenting a case against the Exodus I'd like to hear it.

What evidence would you expect for the non-existence of something?

You'd have to be more specific.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
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6/28/2015 2:53:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 12:56:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/28/2015 12:21:07 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
What kind of evidence would the destruction Sodom and Gomorrah leave behind? First off, we would expect contemporary writings about the destruction of two cities. In other words, eyewitnesses who tell us about this destruction and what they saw. There are none. The Bible tells us these cities were destroyed with fire and brimstone.

Why would that be expected? According to the scriptures only Lot and his daughters survived the destruction. What do we know about the people of that region and how well they kept record, or on what they kept records with? Who could have witnessed it?

According to the story, we know at least one city of the plains is said to have survived (Zoar). Small fires can be seen from 15-20 miles away, and this was two entire cities (maybe 4) burning. It is not unreasonable that, if this destruction happened, the neighbors might have noticed and wrote it down. Ancient people recorded when earthquakes and volcanoes happened - I have no problem imagining that fire from the sky would be just as significant (if not moreso). However, this point alone does not invalidate the possibility of the story. It is when we have no corroborating stories for the Biblical account and no evidence it ever occurred that it becomes problematic. If this is the standard of evidence necessary for validation, then we can also claim "sirens are real" - Odysseus heard them sing". It is a very weak standard of evidence.

Genesis 19: 24
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven,

Brimstone is another name for sulfur, and it is quite easy to spot due to its yellow color. So is there evidence for the existence of cities destroyed in this manner? No. Archaeologists have been searching for these cities for almost a hundred years and have found no trace of any cities destroyed with brimstone. We"re striking out here " no evidence.

M. J. Mulder "two legendary cities from prehistoric Israel in the neighborhood of the Dead Sea"it is highly uncertain, if not improbable, that the vanished cities of the Pentapolis will ever be recovered."

http://homoencyclopedia.com...

Jessica Cecil "There's no agreement among archaeologists, scientists and Biblical scholars that Sodom, and its sister town Gomorrah, existed at all - let alone that it came to a sudden and apocalyptic end."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...

Sources please.

One thing at a time. We'll move on to exodus after we're through with this.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Envisage
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6/28/2015 3:05:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I understand B0HICA(?) started a similar thread, but it unfortunately it took a nose dive in quality discussion almost immediately...imo.

Yep it did, although the abrasive and obtuse manner in which B0HICA didn't help, nor did his snarky replies. Although I have little faith that even if he was civil that it would have turned out well.

If any one is interested in presenting a case against the Exodus I'd like to hear it.

Ex:
- Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt
- Existence of Jesus..
- Existence of David, etc

I am confused. Jesus is not in Exodus, and neither is David? He doesn;t appear until the Book of Samuel, and later allusions in the NT. I think you would be looking for evidence regarding the plagues, mass death of Egyptians, tabernacle, etc. I haven't read the book in a while though so my bible knowledge is super-rusty here.
dee-em
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6/28/2015 3:29:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 1:53:31 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/28/2015 1:28:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/27/2015 4:37:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

If any one is interested in presenting a case against the Exodus I'd like to hear it.

What evidence would you expect for the non-existence of something?

You'd have to be more specific.

It's a straightforward question. You want people to present a case against the Exodus. What evidence could anyone present that something didn't happen? Surely the onus is on the persons claiming the historicity of the Exodus to present their evidence. In the absence of such evidence, and I haven't seen any, why should we accept it as anything other than myth?
Emilrose
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6/28/2015 3:34:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 6:36:57 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:10:39 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
I teach Celestial Torah Christianity because the Bible can no longer be used as is for spiritual authority.

That sounds promising. I'll have to add it to the queue of books on the list, but in the mean time, can you present a case against the Exodus account with some sort of data; evidence, sources, etc?

Promising? You need to look at more their posts.

There is really no such thing as "Celestial Torah Christianity", firstly because the Torah is not even Christian. It's merely the product of his [false Torah teacher] and other deluded idiots' imaginations.

As for the Exodus account, indeed it is debatable. This isn't to say that the Hebrew were *not* slaves in Egypt though--something like the Exodus may well have took place but just on a smaller scale.
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Emilrose
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6/28/2015 3:39:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 3:29:58 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/28/2015 1:53:31 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/28/2015 1:28:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/27/2015 4:37:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

If any one is interested in presenting a case against the Exodus I'd like to hear it.

What evidence would you expect for the non-existence of something?

You'd have to be more specific.

It's a straightforward question. You want people to present a case against the Exodus. What evidence could anyone present that something didn't happen?

Obviously "if it didn't happen", they'll be evidence to show that it didn't happen--which is a requirement in any kind of debate or argument. Evidence from both sides is presented and examined.

Or do you not know the meaning of the term?

Surely the onus is on the persons claiming the historicity of the Exodus to present their evidence. In the absence of such evidence, and I haven't seen any, why should we accept it as anything other than myth?
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
dee-em
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6/28/2015 5:02:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 3:39:41 AM, Emilrose wrote:
At 6/28/2015 3:29:58 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/28/2015 1:53:31 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/28/2015 1:28:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/27/2015 4:37:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

If any one is interested in presenting a case against the Exodus I'd like to hear it.

What evidence would you expect for the non-existence of something?

You'd have to be more specific.

It's a straightforward question. You want people to present a case against the Exodus. What evidence could anyone present that something didn't happen?

Obviously "if it didn't happen", they'll be evidence to show that it didn't happen--which is a requirement in any kind of debate or argument. Evidence from both sides is presented and examined.

Then I repeat. Could you please identify what kind of evidence I could present that something did not happen?

Or do you not know the meaning of the term?

Yes I do. Do you know what burden of proof on a positive claim means?

Surely the onus is on the persons claiming the historicity of the Exodus to present their evidence. In the absence of such evidence, and I haven't seen any, why should we accept it as anything other than myth?
Emilrose
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6/28/2015 8:19:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 5:02:14 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/28/2015 3:39:41 AM, Emilrose wrote:
At 6/28/2015 3:29:58 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/28/2015 1:53:31 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/28/2015 1:28:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/27/2015 4:37:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

If any one is interested in presenting a case against the Exodus I'd like to hear it.

What evidence would you expect for the non-existence of something?

You'd have to be more specific.

It's a straightforward question. You want people to present a case against the Exodus. What evidence could anyone present that something didn't happen?

Obviously "if it didn't happen", they'll be evidence to show that it didn't happen--which is a requirement in any kind of debate or argument. Evidence from both sides is presented and examined.

Then I repeat. Could you please identify what kind of evidence I could present that something did not happen?

Ok, I will try to make it as easy to understand as possible: if something has not happened--they'll be evidence to show or confirm that it has not happened. In the case of the Biblical exodus people generally draw upon the fact there is no alternative recorded event of any plagues, exile of Egyptian slaves, or defeat of the Egyptian army. Additionally they argue that there is no archeological proof of around 600,000 Hebrews wondering the Sinai desert for forty years.

As well as some literal discrepancies, like reference to the Philistines; a people who were not yet known.

Anyone who is trying to prove or disprove something relies on evidence, either in support or not in support of it.

Or do you not know the meaning of the term?

Yes I do. Do you know what burden of proof on a positive claim means?

After debating a lot of times, yes I do. A simple explanation of BoP is that the individual asserting the positive claim has the duty of affirming it and the individual going against this claim has the duty of negating it.

Surely the onus is on the persons claiming the historicity of the Exodus to present their evidence. In the absence of such evidence, and I haven't seen any, why should we accept it as anything other than myth?

If you're going to debate the topic, both parties are required to present whichever evidence they have and attempt to prove their arguments to be correct or incorrect. The thesis is largely irrelevant--what matters is the content of what each side has.
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
bulproof
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6/28/2015 8:35:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 4:37:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I made a thread about "faith" last week, and some how or another we ended up talking about the historicity of the Bible; among other truth/accuracy issues.

I suggested making a separate thread where we could discuss some of these obstacles more pointedly. I thought anyone willing to contribute could post a few discussable historical issues within the scriptures.

I understand B0HICA(?) started a similar thread, but it unfortunately it took a nose dive in quality discussion almost immediately...imo.

So if folks could respect the thread and be ready for productive conversation, it'd be much appreciated. If not... can't do anything to stop you...lol

If any one is interested in presenting a case against the Exodus I'd like to hear it.

Ex:
- Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt
- Existence of Jesus..
- Existence of David, etc
How about archeological evidence of the existence of 5-6 million people roaming a very small desert for forty years?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
dee-em
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6/28/2015 9:11:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 8:19:29 AM, Emilrose wrote:
At 6/28/2015 5:02:14 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/28/2015 3:39:41 AM, Emilrose wrote:
At 6/28/2015 3:29:58 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/28/2015 1:53:31 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/28/2015 1:28:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/27/2015 4:37:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

If any one is interested in presenting a case against the Exodus I'd like to hear it.

What evidence would you expect for the non-existence of something?

You'd have to be more specific.

It's a straightforward question. You want people to present a case against the Exodus. What evidence could anyone present that something didn't happen?

Obviously "if it didn't happen", they'll be evidence to show that it didn't happen--which is a requirement in any kind of debate or argument. Evidence from both sides is presented and examined.

Then I repeat. Could you please identify what kind of evidence I could present that something did not happen?

Ok, I will try to make it as easy to understand as possible: if something has not happened--they'll be evidence to show or confirm that it has not happened. In the case of the Biblical exodus people generally draw upon the fact there is no alternative recorded event of any plagues, exile of Egyptian slaves, or defeat of the Egyptian army. Additionally they argue that there is no archeological proof of around 600,000 Hebrews wondering the Sinai desert for forty years.

As well as some literal discrepancies, like reference to the Philistines; a people who were not yet known.

Not to mention that there is no cross-fertilization between the Egyptian language and Hebrew, something which is inevitable when two cultures meet. I know all that. You miss the point. As a matter of principle, no evidence is needed to back a position for the non-existence of something when no evidence in support of the positive claim is put forward. All those reasons to be skeptical you mention help, but they are not strictly necessary.

Anyone who is trying to prove or disprove something relies on evidence, either in support or not in support of it.

No, it is only the positive claim which demands evidence. It is optional for the negative position.

Or do you not know the meaning of the term?

Yes I do. Do you know what burden of proof on a positive claim means?

After debating a lot of times, yes I do. A simple explanation of BoP is that the individual asserting the positive claim has the duty of affirming it and the individual going against this claim has the duty of negating it.

Nice. Negating it means refuting or casting strong doubt on the evidence supplied for the positive claim. There is no requirement to supply independent evidence to support the con position unless that is agreed to beforehand. You should know that if you do formal debates.

Surely the onus is on the persons claiming the historicity of the Exodus to present their evidence. In the absence of such evidence, and I haven't seen any, why should we accept it as anything other than myth?

If you're going to debate the topic, both parties are required to present whichever evidence they have and attempt to prove their arguments to be correct or incorrect. The thesis is largely irrelevant--what matters is the content of what each side has.

That's just not true and I suspect you know it.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

When the assertion to prove is a negative claim, the burden takes the form of a negative proof, proof of impossibility, or mere evidence of absence. If this negative assertion is in response to a claim made by another party in a debate, asserting the falsehood of the positive claim shifts the burden of proof from the party making the first claim to the one asserting its falsehood, as the position "I do not believe that X is true" is different from the explicit denial "I believe that X is false".[10]

I do not believe that the Exodus happened.
DanneJeRusse
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6/28/2015 10:04:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 4:37:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I made a thread about "faith" last week, and some how or another we ended up talking about the historicity of the Bible; among other truth/accuracy issues.

I suggested making a separate thread where we could discuss some of these obstacles more pointedly. I thought anyone willing to contribute could post a few discussable historical issues within the scriptures.

I understand B0HICA(?) started a similar thread, but it unfortunately it took a nose dive in quality discussion almost immediately...imo.

So if folks could respect the thread and be ready for productive conversation, it'd be much appreciated. If not... can't do anything to stop you...lol

If any one is interested in presenting a case against the Exodus I'd like to hear it.

Ex:
- Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt
- Existence of Jesus..
- Existence of David, etc

I think the argument is easily settled by understanding what the Egyptians were doing at that time and what the residing Pharaoh was engaged. This information is readily available in as much detail as was possible.
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a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
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bulproof
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6/28/2015 10:24:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 8:19:29 AM, Emilrose wrote:
Additionally they argue that there is no archeological proof of around 600,000 Hebrews wondering the Sinai desert for forty years.
You need to look at a minimum of 4million persons and animals on top of that.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Paradox_7
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6/28/2015 2:02:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 2:53:08 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
According to the story, we know at least one city of the plains is said to have survived (Zoar). Small fires can be seen from 15-20 miles away, and this was two entire cities (maybe 4) burning.

Sure, this sounds reasonable, but what of the experiment and research done by the folks in your source, by Jessica Cecil? It would seem that not only would have the fire been extinguished quickly, but all empirical evidence of the cities themselves would be beneath the earth; beneath the dead sea... If you haven't read the full article you posted yet, you should its actually very interesting.

It is not unreasonable that, if this destruction happened, the neighbors might have noticed and wrote it down. Ancient people recorded when earthquakes and volcanoes happened - I have no problem imagining that fire from the sky would be just as significant (if not moreso). However, this point alone does not invalidate the possibility of the story.

To be candid, its was hardly a point. I understand it wouldn't be hard to imagine, but our imaginations in this discussion shouldn't be the strength of any argument. If you are making a case against S&G, using the lack of documentation/record, you should first produce data that backs up: 1) The ways people in that time, and in that place recorded events, 2) How much do we know about those civilizations from actual contemporary records, 3) What amount/type of information is needed in order to consider a theory to be reliable or at least plausible.

It is when we have no corroborating stories for the Biblical account and no evidence it ever occurred that it becomes problematic. If this is the standard of evidence necessary for validation, then we can also claim "sirens are real" - Odysseus heard them sing". It is a very weak standard of evidence.

See above.

Genesis 19: 24
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven,

Brimstone is another name for sulfur, and it is quite easy to spot due to its yellow color. So is there evidence for the existence of cities destroyed in this manner? No. Archaeologists have been searching for these cities for almost a hundred years and have found no trace of any cities destroyed with brimstone. We"re striking out here " no evidence.

M. J. Mulder "two legendary cities from prehistoric Israel in the neighborhood of the Dead Sea"it is highly uncertain, if not improbable, that the vanished cities of the Pentapolis will ever be recovered."

http://homoencyclopedia.com...

Granted, for now.

Jessica Cecil "There's no agreement among archaeologists, scientists and Biblical scholars that Sodom, and its sister town Gomorrah, existed at all - let alone that it came to a sudden and apocalyptic end."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...

No agreement, means some believe it did and some believe it didn't, right? Some see evidence in support, and others aren't so convinced.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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6/28/2015 2:04:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 3:05:54 AM, Envisage wrote:
I am confused. Jesus is not in Exodus, and neither is David? He doesn;t appear until the Book of Samuel, and later allusions in the NT. I think you would be looking for evidence regarding the plagues, mass death of Egyptians, tabernacle, etc. I haven't read the book in a while though so my bible knowledge is super-rusty here.

Lol, no you're absolutely right... those examples really should have came before my request on Exodus... that is confusing!

sorry bout dat bruv. =/
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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6/28/2015 2:16:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 3:29:58 AM, dee-em wrote:
It's a straightforward question. You want people to present a case against the Exodus. What evidence could anyone present that something didn't happen? Surely the onus is on the persons claiming the historicity of the Exodus to present their evidence. In the absence of such evidence, and I haven't seen any, why should we accept it as anything other than myth?

The onus is on who ever is making the claim. If its in the negative, which it almost certainly is, than whoever is making that case is required to provide evidence of absence, or evidence that such and event couldn't have occurred.

You aren't required to participate in the discussion if you don't want to, but if a person does so choose to accept this challenge, then they are also accepting the burden of proof. After all, if you want to convince someone of anything, especially a negative claim, you can't simply say you reject the positive claim and expect that to have any effect on there position.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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6/28/2015 2:20:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 3:34:28 AM, Emilrose wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:36:57 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:10:39 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
I teach Celestial Torah Christianity because the Bible can no longer be used as is for spiritual authority.

That sounds promising. I'll have to add it to the queue of books on the list, but in the mean time, can you present a case against the Exodus account with some sort of data; evidence, sources, etc?

Promising? You need to look at more their posts.

There is really no such thing as "Celestial Torah Christianity", firstly because the Torah is not even Christian. It's merely the product of his [false Torah teacher] and other deluded idiots' imaginations.

As for the Exodus account, indeed it is debatable. This isn't to say that the Hebrew were *not* slaves in Egypt though--something like the Exodus may well have took place but just on a smaller scale.

I am inclined to agree with you, but did you have anything to put toward the OP? Defenses or Positive claims about controversial events/people/places are welcome so long as they follow the methods of proof. Which I know I haven't really lay'd out... but to keep this a bit semi-formal, just provide sources and data as the primary part of your case.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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6/28/2015 2:20:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 8:35:12 AM, bulproof wrote:
How about archeological evidence of the existence of 5-6 million people roaming a very small desert for forty years?

Is this an absence of evidence argument?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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6/28/2015 2:35:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 10:04:13 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
I think the argument is easily settled by understanding what the Egyptians were doing at that time and what the residing Pharaoh was engaged. This information is readily available in as much detail as was possible.

Could you provide some?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
DanneJeRusse
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6/28/2015 2:57:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 2:35:22 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/28/2015 10:04:13 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
I think the argument is easily settled by understanding what the Egyptians were doing at that time and what the residing Pharaoh was engaged. This information is readily available in as much detail as was possible.

Could you provide some?

Sure, I did so in another thread some time ago.

However, can we first agree who the residing Pharaoh was? My understanding is that it was Ramses II. Is that correct?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepticalone
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6/28/2015 4:31:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 2:02:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/28/2015 2:53:08 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
According to the story, we know at least one city of the plains is said to have survived (Zoar). Small fires can be seen from 15-20 miles away, and this was two entire cities (maybe 4) burning.

Sure, this sounds reasonable, but what of the experiment and research done by the folks in your source, by Jessica Cecil? It would seem that not only would have the fire been extinguished quickly, but all empirical evidence of the cities themselves would be beneath the earth; beneath the dead sea... If you haven't read the full article you posted yet, you should its actually very interesting.

Yes it is an interesting article, but if there was a Sodom and Gomorrah - and they were destroyed by natural events - then it is not really evidence for the Christian god, is it? It becomes just one more example of an argument from ignorance/god of the gaps. If this were the case, my point (contrary to what I believe is yours) still stands - S&G is not evidence of a god.

If your goal is to show some historicity in the Bible, then the existence of these cities really makes no difference and are not necessary. I concede the Bible is historically correct in some aspects.


It is not unreasonable that, if this destruction happened, the neighbors might have noticed and wrote it down. Ancient people recorded when earthquakes and volcanoes happened - I have no problem imagining that fire from the sky would be just as significant (if not moreso). However, this point alone does not invalidate the possibility of the story.

To be candid, its was hardly a point. I understand it wouldn't be hard to imagine, but our imaginations in this discussion shouldn't be the strength of any argument. If you are making a case against S&G, using the lack of documentation/record, you should first produce data that backs up: 1) The ways people in that time, and in that place recorded events, 2) How much do we know about those civilizations from actual contemporary records, 3) What amount/type of information is needed in order to consider a theory to be reliable or at least plausible.

Well, as far as I am aware, we have no records from S&G or contemporary records about S&G, thus your demand to show documentation in order that we might know that lack of records is out of the ordinary is unreasonable. Not to mention, you are missing the point I am making. It is not uncommon for civilizations to leave evidence of their existence. It is not uncommon for the destruction of civilizations to leave evidence. If there are any, it is not uncommon for witnesses of catastrophic events to leave evidence. This type of evidence is reasonable to expect and the lack of it is problematic. It is lacking.

It is when we have no corroborating stories for the Biblical account and no evidence it ever occurred that it becomes problematic. If this is the standard of evidence necessary for validation, then we can also claim "sirens are real" - Odysseus heard them sing". It is a very weak standard of evidence.

See above.

Genesis 19: 24
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven,

Brimstone is another name for sulfur, and it is quite easy to spot due to its yellow color. So is there evidence for the existence of cities destroyed in this manner? No. Archaeologists have been searching for these cities for almost a hundred years and have found no trace of any cities destroyed with brimstone. We"re striking out here " no evidence.

M. J. Mulder "two legendary cities from prehistoric Israel in the neighborhood of the Dead Sea"it is highly uncertain, if not improbable, that the vanished cities of the Pentapolis will ever be recovered."

http://homoencyclopedia.com...

Granted, for now.

Jessica Cecil "There's no agreement among archaeologists, scientists and Biblical scholars that Sodom, and its sister town Gomorrah, existed at all - let alone that it came to a sudden and apocalyptic end."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...

No agreement, means some believe it did and some believe it didn't, right? Some see evidence in support, and others aren't so convinced.

I see no significance in inconclusive results for the those advocating the truth of S&G. I found a link that explores more thoroughly what archaeologists have found in the Dead sea area. I thought you might find it interesting.

http://www.haaretz.com...

Also, thus far you have had me defending my position - and I am happy to play along up to a point, but the onus of proof is not on me as a disbeliever. What justification do you have for your belief in the truth of S&G? After all, you could crush my arguments, but if you have made none of your own then you have proven nothing.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Paradox_7
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6/28/2015 4:41:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 2:57:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/28/2015 2:35:22 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/28/2015 10:04:13 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
I think the argument is easily settled by understanding what the Egyptians were doing at that time and what the residing Pharaoh was engaged. This information is readily available in as much detail as was possible.

Could you provide some?

Sure, I did so in another thread some time ago.

However, can we first agree who the residing Pharaoh was? My understanding is that it was Ramses II. Is that correct?

Depends, on how far back we're gonna go. If we start from the time Moses was adopted, to when he killed the Egyptian and fled, to the exodus, to the red sea...

We're talking 2-3 different Pharoahs, one being a Co-regent, and none of them are Raamses.

But, if we're going to get into that, then we need to establish which time period the Exodus truly falls in; there is much debate about that. If it falls ~1440 BC then, thing start to make MUCH more sense. If the evidence(usually biblical) shows it to be in 1200 BC we have much more problems; this is when Raamses II ruled.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
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6/28/2015 5:00:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 4:41:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/28/2015 2:57:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/28/2015 2:35:22 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/28/2015 10:04:13 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
I think the argument is easily settled by understanding what the Egyptians were doing at that time and what the residing Pharaoh was engaged. This information is readily available in as much detail as was possible.

Could you provide some?

Sure, I did so in another thread some time ago.

However, can we first agree who the residing Pharaoh was? My understanding is that it was Ramses II. Is that correct?

Depends, on how far back we're gonna go. If we start from the time Moses was adopted, to when he killed the Egyptian and fled, to the exodus, to the red sea...
\
I think the relevant time frames are when Moses first came to the Pharaoh demanding the release of the slaves to when they finally leave, which is a short time, imsc.

We're talking 2-3 different Pharoahs, one being a Co-regent, and none of them are Raamses.

Do you know specifically which Pharaoh ruled then?

But, if we're going to get into that, then we need to establish which time period the Exodus truly falls in; there is much debate about that. If it falls ~1440 BC then, thing start to make MUCH more sense. If the evidence(usually biblical) shows it to be in 1200 BC we have much more problems; this is when Raamses II ruled.

That's the tough part, there are a number of Pharaohs who could have been in power that are candidates for the role of the Exodus from Setnakhte (c.1189"1186 BC) to Dedumose I (died c.1690 BC) with Ramses II somewhere in between.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Paradox_7
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6/28/2015 7:01:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 4:31:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Yes it is an interesting article, but if there was a Sodom and Gomorrah - and they were destroyed by natural events - then it is not really evidence for the Christian god, is it? It becomes just one more example of an argument from ignorance/god of the gaps. If this were the case, my point (contrary to what I believe is yours) still stands - S&G is not evidence of a god.

Maybe, maybe not, but that is really irrelevant to the OP right? After all, this topic is centrally about the historicity of the Bible, not about the Christian God being real.

If your goal is to show some historicity in the Bible, then the existence of these cities really makes no difference and are not necessary. I concede the Bible is historically correct in some aspects.

My goal first and foremost, is to investigate as many of the claims against the bibles historicity. Out of those claims, perhaps it will begin to include possible contradictions, and even the authenticity of the text themselves; since that is also a common charge.

Well, as far as I am aware, we have no records from S&G or contemporary records about S&G, thus your demand to show documentation in order that we might know that lack of records is out of the ordinary is unreasonable.

I accept that answer, as long as you can provide some evidence that your assertion is true. If there are no extra-biblical records of S&G, or cities suspected of being S&G, than its as easy as providing that proof.

Not to mention, you are missing the point I am making. It is not uncommon for civilizations to leave evidence of their existence. It is not uncommon for the destruction of civilizations to leave evidence. If there are any, it is not uncommon for witnesses of catastrophic events to leave evidence. This type of evidence is reasonable to expect and the lack of it is problematic. It is lacking.

I understood your point, and I tend to agree with it. However, if you are making a claim like this, then you should be able to back it up with some data; trust me, I know it's time consuming to do so, so if you wish to opt out, I won't think any less of you. But if this discussion is going to be fruitful, then we should at least be consistent with the way make our cases; utilizing empirical evidence and relevant data firstly.

No agreement, means some believe it did and some believe it didn't, right? Some see evidence in support, and others aren't so convinced.

I see no significance in inconclusive results for the those advocating the truth of S&G. I found a link that explores more thoroughly what archaeologists have found in the Dead sea area. I thought you might find it interesting.

http://www.haaretz.com...

Good article, and it holds some significant data as well. So, would you consider the evidence this article provides as more valid then other evidences? Such as the sinking city theory? Which is mentioned in that article as well.

Also, thus far you have had me defending my position - and I am happy to play along up to a point, but the onus of proof is not on me as a disbeliever. What justification do you have for your belief in the truth of S&G? After all, you could crush my arguments, but if you have made none of your own then you have proven nothing.

The onus is on whoever is making the claim. It's funny I'm having to explain this in 3 separate threads all within the same day. I specifically made the OP in this way as to avoid people trying to skirt their responsibility to the BoP. I haven't made any claims in this thread as to what I believe to be true, nor have I made a case for either side. I'm simply asking for those who are making the claims to support them in the same way they'd expect anyone else too.

I think it's going rather well so far, and if you'd like to get down to brass tax, than I suggest, with respect, that you stop wasting time and start presenting your case in an acceptable manner. =)
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.