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Infinity

Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/15/2010 8:13:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Does infinity exist?
What is infinite?
How do we know that it is infinite?
What are the logical conclusions of infinity?

Yes this is leading somewhere.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
RoyalLion
Posts: 6
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8/15/2010 9:26:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 8:13:50 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Does infinity exist?
What is infinite?
How do we know that it is infinite?
What are the logical conclusions of infinity?

Yes this is leading somewhere.
yes it does exist
some thing which can be assessed, but the time devoted on finding is not worth it...
most of the time it is used in numbers
lets understand it with an example for Crows 4 is infinity, that is they cannot count beyond 3, so they assign equal values to say 4 & 400.
normally if infinity is expandable we don't know it is infinity , if otherwise we can know it is infinite. bit confusing

but the topic itself is infinite.
Marauder
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8/15/2010 1:51:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Infinity is mathematically 1/0.

In electrical work the value of open circuit resistance is this value; do indeed it does exist.

Narcy put this in the religious section so I am assuming he means something different than a numeric value though.
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GeoLaureate8
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8/15/2010 5:05:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 8:13:50 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Does infinity exist?

Yes.

What is infinite?

Limitless, unending.

How do we know that it is infinite?

The law of identity.

What are the logical conclusions of infinity?

I find it more metaphysically satisfying, though, I personally will not be affected by the existence or non-existence of infinity.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/15/2010 5:12:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Okay to elaborate,

Does infinity exist? As in is there such a thing as infinitiy in reality, not merely as a concept. So is the universe/multiverse of infinite size, is time infinite.

What is infinite? I am not asking what is infinitity, but rather what is of infinite value.

How do we know that it is infinite? If you claim that the universe is infinite how do we know this.

What are the logical conclusions of infinity? This is the result of a strange pub conversation, I'll elaborate further.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/15/2010 6:38:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 5:12:42 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Okay to elaborate,

Does infinity exist? As in is there such a thing as infinitiy in reality, not merely as a concept. So is the universe/multiverse of infinite size, is time infinite.

In physics it belongs to "unknown" - it's not discounted, it's not proven. In mathematics it's more common and is in regards to exponential sets, some infinities are larger than others. The only relevant meaning we have for infinity is in mathematics, and translating it from mathematics > language usually raises a few translation issues.

What is infinite? I am not asking what is infinitity, but rather what is of infinite value.

Contradiction if you are talking non mathematics. To have a value is to have a limit.

How do we know that it is infinite? If you claim that the universe is infinite how do we know this.

What are the logical conclusions of infinity? This is the result of a strange pub conversation, I'll elaborate further.

Metaphysical conclusions? Not many. :P
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 6:38:29 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 5:12:42 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Okay to elaborate,

Does infinity exist? As in is there such a thing as infinitiy in reality, not merely as a concept. So is the universe/multiverse of infinite size, is time infinite.

In physics it belongs to "unknown" - it's not discounted, it's not proven. In mathematics it's more common and is in regards to exponential sets, some infinities are larger than others. The only relevant meaning we have for infinity is in mathematics, and translating it from mathematics > language usually raises a few translation issues.

What is infinite? I am not asking what is infinitity, but rather what is of infinite value.

Contradiction if you are talking non mathematics. To have a value is to have a limit.

Where is the contradiction.


How do we know that it is infinite? If you claim that the universe is infinite how do we know this.

What are the logical conclusions of infinity? This is the result of a strange pub conversation, I'll elaborate further.

Metaphysical conclusions? Not many. :P

I am working towards what may be the best argument for God I have ever heard... not that I really read up on philosophy, I mean I should but it is so tedious to just have the same ideas you have developed on your own parroted back to you by a rather more eloquent dead guy.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/15/2010 7:05:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The universe must have always existed, though we can date the big bang to so many billions of years previously I struggle to accept that this event was the beginning of reality. Something can not spring from nothing.

Even the theory that the universe (as we know it) was birthed from quantum fluctations is to claim that there was something previously.

The multiverse theory is to claim that there was a pre-existent reality.

A cause may not in itself be uncaused, there is no first cause, the universe has always existed.

Is this a valid train of thought?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cody_Franklin
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8/15/2010 7:08:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:38:29 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 5:12:42 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Okay to elaborate,

Does infinity exist? As in is there such a thing as infinitiy in reality, not merely as a concept. So is the universe/multiverse of infinite size, is time infinite.

In physics it belongs to "unknown" - it's not discounted, it's not proven. In mathematics it's more common and is in regards to exponential sets, some infinities are larger than others. The only relevant meaning we have for infinity is in mathematics, and translating it from mathematics > language usually raises a few translation issues.

What is infinite? I am not asking what is infinitity, but rather what is of infinite value.

Contradiction if you are talking non mathematics. To have a value is to have a limit.

Where is the contradiction.

Mathematically, infinity can exist, but only because infinity isn't a static quantity. The term is used to denote a quantity which never ceases to increase, and is not, therefore, finite.

If you try to translate that to the physical realm, however, you'll notice that the law of identity is a standing refutation to the concept of infinite entities. To say that A is A implies that A has a specific identity, which means that it is of a limited nature with specific, defined, also-limited characteristics. That's the essence of identity; however, to say that something which exists is infinite is to say that its identity is limitlessness. At that point, you're saying that finite identity is infinite - that A is non-A.
tvellalott
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8/15/2010 7:13:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I am working towards what may be the best argument for God I have ever heard...

Please share.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/15/2010 7:14:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:08:21 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:38:29 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 5:12:42 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Okay to elaborate,

Does infinity exist? As in is there such a thing as infinitiy in reality, not merely as a concept. So is the universe/multiverse of infinite size, is time infinite.

In physics it belongs to "unknown" - it's not discounted, it's not proven. In mathematics it's more common and is in regards to exponential sets, some infinities are larger than others. The only relevant meaning we have for infinity is in mathematics, and translating it from mathematics > language usually raises a few translation issues.

What is infinite? I am not asking what is infinitity, but rather what is of infinite value.

Contradiction if you are talking non mathematics. To have a value is to have a limit.

Where is the contradiction.

Mathematically, infinity can exist, but only because infinity isn't a static quantity. The term is used to denote a quantity which never ceases to increase, and is not, therefore, finite.

Interesting, there in effect two definitions of infinite then. One as a static, one as active?

If you try to translate that to the physical realm, however, you'll notice that the law of identity is a standing refutation to the concept of infinite entities. To say that A is A implies that A has a specific identity, which means that it is of a limited nature with specific, defined, also-limited characteristics. That's the essence of identity; however, to say that something which exists is infinite is to say that its identity is limitlessness. At that point, you're saying that finite identity is infinite - that A is non-A.

I am going to have to re-read that, it seems like semantics not logic. Not sure.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/15/2010 7:15:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:13:18 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I am working towards what may be the best argument for God I have ever heard...

Please share.

Thats what I am working towards in a slow labourious manner!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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8/15/2010 7:16:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 9:26:43 AM, RoyalLion wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:13:50 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Does infinity exist?
What is infinite?
How do we know that it is infinite?
What are the logical conclusions of infinity?

Yes this is leading somewhere.
yes it does exist
some thing which can be assessed, but the time devoted on finding is not worth it...
most of the time it is used in numbers
lets understand it with an example for Crows 4 is infinity, that is they cannot count beyond 3, so they assign equal values to say 4 & 400.

No, the crows are just dumb. 4 cannot be infinity, because 4 is finite.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/15/2010 7:17:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
There can't be multiple infinities, nor can a "thing" be said to be infinite.

Infinity can only be used to describe the whole of existence.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/15/2010 7:19:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Where is the contradiction.

A value by definition is a finite quality.
mongeese
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8/15/2010 7:19:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:17:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
There can't be multiple infinities, nor can a "thing" be said to be infinite.

Infinity can only be used to describe the whole of existence.

But what if the whole of existence is finite?
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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8/15/2010 7:20:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:14:17 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:08:21 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:38:29 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 5:12:42 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Okay to elaborate,

Does infinity exist? As in is there such a thing as infinitiy in reality, not merely as a concept. So is the universe/multiverse of infinite size, is time infinite.

In physics it belongs to "unknown" - it's not discounted, it's not proven. In mathematics it's more common and is in regards to exponential sets, some infinities are larger than others. The only relevant meaning we have for infinity is in mathematics, and translating it from mathematics > language usually raises a few translation issues.

What is infinite? I am not asking what is infinitity, but rather what is of infinite value.

Contradiction if you are talking non mathematics. To have a value is to have a limit.

Where is the contradiction.

Mathematically, infinity can exist, but only because infinity isn't a static quantity. The term is used to denote a quantity which never ceases to increase, and is not, therefore, finite.

Interesting, there in effect two definitions of infinite then. One as a static, one as active?

Something like that. You can work a calculus problem with infinity, but you can't translate the anti-quantity of "infinity" into physical existence.

If you try to translate that to the physical realm, however, you'll notice that the law of identity is a standing refutation to the concept of infinite entities. To say that A is A implies that A has a specific identity, which means that it is of a limited nature with specific, defined, also-limited characteristics. That's the essence of identity; however, to say that something which exists is infinite is to say that its identity is limitlessness. At that point, you're saying that finite identity is infinite - that A is non-A.

I am going to have to re-read that, it seems like semantics not logic. Not sure.

Not at all. Existence is predicated upon identity. Identity requires limitations. To be able to say that X is anything implies that X has a specific nature (as distinct from Y and Z), and particular characteristics. That's why infinite mathematical quantities can exist in a problem - they aren't translated into the physical world.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/15/2010 7:22:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:17:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
There can't be multiple infinities, nor can a "thing" be said to be infinite.

Infinity can only be used to describe the whole of existence.

By and large thats what I am hinting at.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Puck
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8/15/2010 7:23:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:05:45 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
A cause may not in itself be uncaused, there is no first cause, the universe has always existed.

Is this a valid train of thought?

It's trying to mesh physics with metaphysics and at this stage it kind of gets very messy since it's based upon 'this is what we know about the universe'. Since the question is aimed at the 'prior' step it requires those same assumptions but places it in the we don't have any idea zone of what occurred. The issue is dealing with causality when you are additionally dealing with the total unknown. The probability of the origin of a physical universe being physical are good, it's just that it's (at this stage) unknowable and assumptions are just that.
Puck
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8/15/2010 7:25:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:17:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
There can't be multiple infinities, nor can a "thing" be said to be infinite.

In mathematics, multiple infinites are used. The trouble is translating infinity outside of mathematics into something else.
Cody_Franklin
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8/15/2010 7:26:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:23:50 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:05:45 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
A cause may not in itself be uncaused, there is no first cause, the universe has always existed.

Is this a valid train of thought?

It's trying to mesh physics with metaphysics and at this stage it kind of gets very messy since it's based upon 'this is what we know about the universe'. Since the question is aimed at the 'prior' step it requires those same assumptions but places it in the we don't have any idea zone of what occurred. The issue is dealing with causality when you are additionally dealing with the total unknown. The probability of the origin of a physical universe being physical are good, it's just that it's (at this stage) unknowable and assumptions are just that.

That's the problem I run into with theists who look back to the origins of the universe. They take the lack of knowledge as an excuse to substitute in a mystical solution, and then equate that lack of knowledge with their faith.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/15/2010 7:26:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:19:04 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Where is the contradiction.

A value by definition is a finite quality.

One of God's values is omniscience. This suggests an infnity of knowledge.

It is also a finite quality of sorts because the term is limited only to knowledge, for instance it is not certain that an omniscient God would be omnipotent (though he would be very powerful). Yes I know he is generally described as omnipotent.

Expressed like this I have suddenly realised that the law of identity need not be violated by conceptions of the infinite.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mongeese
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8/15/2010 7:28:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:26:24 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:19:04 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Where is the contradiction.

A value by definition is a finite quality.

One of God's values is omniscience. This suggests an infnity of knowledge.

No, it suggests an all-encompassing of knowledge. Just because He knows everything, doesn't mean that there is an infinite number of things to know.
Puck
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8/15/2010 7:28:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:26:24 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:19:04 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Where is the contradiction.

A value by definition is a finite quality.

One of God's values is omniscience. This suggests an infnity of knowledge.

No it doesn't. It suggests either all knowledge, or the capacity for all knowledge.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/15/2010 7:30:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:23:50 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:05:45 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
A cause may not in itself be uncaused, there is no first cause, the universe has always existed.

Is this a valid train of thought?

It's trying to mesh physics with metaphysics and at this stage it kind of gets very messy since it's based upon 'this is what we know about the universe'. Since the question is aimed at the 'prior' step it requires those same assumptions but places it in the we don't have any idea zone of what occurred. The issue is dealing with causality when you are additionally dealing with the total unknown. The probability of the origin of a physical universe being physical are good, it's just that it's (at this stage) unknowable and assumptions are just that.

I am probably wrong here and I may be contradicted by quantum physics but every cause is caused right? However there also can not be a first cause, because that would require a previous cause. The universe must be uncaused, always present, of infinite age.

Am I talking crap?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Puck
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8/15/2010 7:30:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:26:24 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Expressed like this I have suddenly realised that the law of identity need not be violated by conceptions of the infinite.

It is still by that agument an infinite, thereby undefined, thereby without limit, thereby in violation of LoA.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/15/2010 7:31:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:28:00 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:26:24 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:19:04 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Where is the contradiction.

A value by definition is a finite quality.

One of God's values is omniscience. This suggests an infnity of knowledge.

No, it suggests an all-encompassing of knowledge. Just because He knows everything, doesn't mean that there is an infinite number of things to know.

Yea good point.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
popculturepooka
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8/15/2010 7:32:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:26:24 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:19:04 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Where is the contradiction.

A value by definition is a finite quality.

One of God's values is omniscience. This suggests an infnity of knowledge.


I think standard party line here is God's omni-properties are qualitative not quantitative.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/15/2010 7:33:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:30:08 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:26:24 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Expressed like this I have suddenly realised that the law of identity need not be violated by conceptions of the infinite.

It is still by that agument an infinite, thereby undefined, thereby without limit, thereby in violation of LoA.

No by that argument, (which seems to fail anyway I now realise) it is a defined infinite value and non-contradictory.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/15/2010 7:34:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:32:28 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:26:24 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:19:04 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:57:57 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Where is the contradiction.

A value by definition is a finite quality.

One of God's values is omniscience. This suggests an infnity of knowledge.


I think standard party line here is God's omni-properties are qualitative not quantitative.

Yea I understand that now.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.