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I dare you - gay marriage

Elli87e
Posts: 45
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6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.

BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,749
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6/29/2015 2:57:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

Response: That was done in my other thread. Homosexual sex is based on lust, not love. And before there is a play on words, I'm referring to the following definitions (not the word) but the definitions:

Love-a feeling of appreciation from being cared for by someone or being the care giver to someone. Thus a loving relationship is achieved by putting the needs and wants of others before you own, with the purposeful aim to make joy by making others happy at all times. The desire to give always supersedes the desire to receive.

Lust- The crave for attention and affection and self-interest. Thus a lustful relationship may involve the act of making others happy, but the desire to receive always supersedes the desire to give.

Hence, homosexual sex is based on the latter definition. For convenience to not spell out the definition every time, I'm using the word lust.

Again, if I am wrong, then answer the question. That is what id the difference in the sexual nature of attraction between men and women that makes the same sex love each other sexually, but not the opposite? There is no other logical answer than lust.
Elli87e
Posts: 45
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6/29/2015 3:28:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.

I assume you are gay? Of course you are. Cause no person would ever be so sure of how a relationship between 2 people works if he/she had not lived it. I don't know. I am not gay. However I have seen deep meaningful love between 2 men. Why do you assume that its only about sex? Isn't it rather creepy to focus that much on how other people have sex? So your problem is not with 2 men living together, but the fact that they have a piece of paper in their hands saying the are lawfully a couple? Does it weaken your marriage if they have that paper?

Once upon a time you all hated black people and did not even allow them to ride the bus. You also did not allow a black and a white person to get married. If you had asked an opponent back then he might have given the same answer you just did above.

Is there a possibility that you could represent one of those opponents back then? That you could be wrong? That in 20 years we shake our heads at the sick ways people tried to control one an other?

I always wonder: how does it affect you? Is your life in any way changed the day your neighbours get married? And who are you to judge? When THAT many people around the world are gay I just don't logically think of to even be a possibility that its just "lust".

Besides: you are still describing the religious view on marriage. Our view is very different here. It has nothing to do with population the earth or being monogamous. To us marriage is a gathering of 2 people who love each other. And also it is a practical thing. It makes it easier when you own property etc. But I guess 2 homosexuals should not own property either?
Elli87e
Posts: 45
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6/29/2015 3:33:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 2:57:28 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

Response: That was done in my other thread. Homosexual sex is based on lust, not love. And before there is a play on words, I'm referring to the following definitions (not the word) but the definitions:

Love-a feeling of appreciation from being cared for by someone or being the care giver to someone. Thus a loving relationship is achieved by putting the needs and wants of others before you own, with the purposeful aim to make joy by making others happy at all times. The desire to give always supersedes the desire to receive.

Lust- The crave for attention and affection and self-interest. Thus a lustful relationship may involve the act of making others happy, but the desire to receive always supersedes the desire to give.

Hence, homosexual sex is based on the latter definition. For convenience to not spell out the definition every time, I'm using the word lust.

Again, if I am wrong, then answer the question. That is what id the difference in the sexual nature of attraction between men and women that makes the same sex love each other sexually, but not the opposite? There is no other logical answer than lust.

So heterosexual sex is not based on lust?
Seriously think about it: 2 people chose to live their lives together. Live together. Marry each other. Buy a house together. Stay faithful to each other. Stay together for decades....for ONLY lust? That thought is so ignorant Im sorry to say.
And you say it as if it is a scientific FACT that gay people only get together as a couple because of sex.

The way you just described both love and lust are correct. Have you ever been close to a long, serious homosexual relationship? On what do you base this? What is the reason that you think they are in it for lust!?
inferno
Posts: 10,660
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6/29/2015 3:35:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It is a sin simple and plain. Now show me how two people of the same sex can create a child.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,749
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6/29/2015 3:40:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 3:33:25 PM, Elli87e wrote:

So heterosexual sex is not based on lust?
Seriously think about it: 2 people chose to live their lives together. Live together. Marry each other. Buy a house together. Stay faithful to each other. Stay together for decades....for ONLY lust? That thought is so ignorant Im sorry to say.
And you say it as if it is a scientific FACT that gay people only get together as a couple because of sex.

The way you just described both love and lust are correct. Have you ever been close to a long, serious homosexual relationship? On what do you base this? What is the reason that you think they are in it for lust!?

Response: Heterosexual sex that is based on lust is wrong as well. The difference being is that only the opposite sex can love each other sexually. Whereas it is not humanly possible for the same sex to love each other sexually. It is based on lust only.
And the proof is homosexuals themselves. Ask them this question that you conveniently dodged because you cannot answer it as well. That is, what is the difference in the sexual nature of attraction between men and women that makes the same sex love each other sexually, but not towards the opposite sex? Answer the question. You have no other logical answer other than lust.

If you don't understand the question let me simplify. What makes a man love another man sexually, but not a woman? I guarantee you your answer will relate to lust.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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6/29/2015 3:43:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Kinda amusing that this is in the religion forum when religion is not used in the argument. Nonetheless, here goes.

Tax money is involved, so "doesn't harm anyone" is not good enough; the burden of proof would be on why it should be legal, why the governament should be interested in it, and why tax money should be invested on it.
It includes two consenting adults like most contracts, but as long as it is recognized and financed by state/governament, it is a public contract. If you want to love, nobody is stopping you. You can love your family, friends, and whoever in a romantic or non-romantic way, but you can't get tax-cuts by checking a box that says "I love X" or "In love".

The governament is indifferent to most interpersonal relationships; it would be nice if you get rewarded for loving someone good enough, but economy doesn't work this way. If someone makes an interrelationship, or a private marriage ceremony by all means, nobody has the right to oppose it. But marriage isn't merely that.A279;

Lets go over the 14th amendment argument. The 14th amendment won't get you to the conclusion of same-sex marriage unless you first assume the genderless view of marriage. Both sides are in favor of marriage equality and equal protection under the law, the law applying to all people and marriages equally, etc.
The point of disagreement is what type of consenting adult relationship can be recognized as a marriage. So there is no contradiction with the 14th amendment, but contradicting views of what marriage is. The clause requires treating things that are the same in the same way, but you don't have to treat different things the same way. Based on the opposing position, they are good reasons to believe that a union between a man and a woman is different from a same-sex union. Different sex union is necessary for a society to survive, and the overwhelming majority of children are born from vaginal sex. Furthermore, the governament invests tax money on certain interpersonal relationship and labels them marriage. It stands to reason that marriage has a social function, which is to encourage stable relationships which increases the chance of children being born in an advantageous environment. However that function is missing in a same-sex union.

This is why some heterosexual unions such as incest and polygamy are not allowed. However, even if homosexual marriage is licensed there is still no marriage equality as long as paternity is presumed without consent, incest and polygamy prohibited, and custody bestowed upon biological or presumed parents. So the 14th amendment actually gets violated with the current implementation of same-sex marriage.
Elli87e
Posts: 45
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6/29/2015 3:46:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 3:35:43 PM, inferno wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It is a sin simple and plain. Now show me how two people of the same sex can create a child.

Oh thank you so much. I really thought it would take longer for someone to bring up religion. I was waiting on someone to do it. Because it is ignorant and so obvious.
The whole idea was to have a valid, thoughtful discussion that for ONCE did not involve religion. You know why? Because then we could all be equals for a second. We could take science, humanity, kindness, all of those things that all people know about. NOT religion. Because that is only for some. And for you to say "its a sin" is to me as invalid a response as saying "because I eat cereal for breakfast". It means nothing.

So all the couples in this world struggling to have children should naturally be forced to divorce.

Do you know what the bible also say? If a man has sex with a woman who is menstruating the village should drag them both to the streets and stone them.
Of course we need to start doing that again!! As in right away...kill off half the planet for he love of God. Those sin full creatures. Be gone devil be gone
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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6/29/2015 3:46:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 3:28:48 PM, Elli87e wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.


I assume you are gay? Of course you are. Cause no person would ever be so sure of how a relationship between 2 people works if he/she had not lived it. I don't know. I am not gay. However I have seen deep meaningful love between 2 men. Why do you assume that its only about sex? Isn't it rather creepy to focus that much on how other people have sex? So your problem is not with 2 men living together, but the fact that they have a piece of paper in their hands saying the are lawfully a couple? Does it weaken your marriage if they have that paper?

It is not about being a couple. It is about creating a stable complementary environment for begetting and raising children. The fact that every culture has some form of marriage for this express purpose just proves how universal and fundamental it is to human nature.

Yes my marriage is weakened by redefining it into something less than it truly is. Words have meaning. And when you change the meaning you change how society as a whole responds to it.

Once upon a time you all hated black people and did not even allow them to ride the bus. You also did not allow a black and a white person to get married. If you had asked an opponent back then he might have given the same answer you just did above.

Being black is a mere genetic characteristic and not at all the same as a behaviour.

Is there a possibility that you could represent one of those opponents back then?

Nope.

That you could be wrong? That in 20 years we shake our heads at the sick ways people tried to control one an other?

You got that right.

I always wonder: how does it affect you? Is your life in any way changed the day your neighbours get married? And who are you to judge? When THAT many people around the world are gay I just don't logically think of to even be a possibility that its just "lust".

You haven't actually addressing my points yet, but just strawmanning as you go.

Besides: you are still describing the religious view on marriage. Our view is very different here. It has nothing to do with population the earth or being monogamous. To us marriage is a gathering of 2 people who love each other. And also it is a practical thing. It makes it easier when you own property etc.

I'm describing what most cultures regardless of religion have generally held to be true. I don't remember mentioning God once. If I did please show me where.

But I guess 2 homosexuals should not own property either?

Yup just another strawman. Can you do anything else?
inferno
Posts: 10,660
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6/29/2015 3:49:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 3:46:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:28:48 PM, Elli87e wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.


I assume you are gay? Of course you are. Cause no person would ever be so sure of how a relationship between 2 people works if he/she had not lived it. I don't know. I am not gay. However I have seen deep meaningful love between 2 men. Why do you assume that its only about sex? Isn't it rather creepy to focus that much on how other people have sex? So your problem is not with 2 men living together, but the fact that they have a piece of paper in their hands saying the are lawfully a couple? Does it weaken your marriage if they have that paper?

It is not about being a couple. It is about creating a stable complementary environment for begetting and raising children. The fact that every culture has some form of marriage for this express purpose just proves how universal and fundamental it is to human nature.

Yes my marriage is weakened by redefining it into something less than it truly is. Words have meaning. And when you change the meaning you change how society as a whole responds to it.

Once upon a time you all hated black people and did not even allow them to ride the bus. You also did not allow a black and a white person to get married. If you had asked an opponent back then he might have given the same answer you just did above.

Being black is a mere genetic characteristic and not at all the same as a behaviour.

Is there a possibility that you could represent one of those opponents back then?

Nope.

That you could be wrong? That in 20 years we shake our heads at the sick ways people tried to control one an other?

You got that right.

I always wonder: how does it affect you? Is your life in any way changed the day your neighbours get married? And who are you to judge? When THAT many people around the world are gay I just don't logically think of to even be a possibility that its just "lust".

You haven't actually addressing my points yet, but just strawmanning as you go.

Besides: you are still describing the religious view on marriage. Our view is very different here. It has nothing to do with population the earth or being monogamous. To us marriage is a gathering of 2 people who love each other. And also it is a practical thing. It makes it easier when you own property etc.

I'm describing what most cultures regardless of religion have generally held to be true. I don't remember mentioning God once. If I did please show me where.

But I guess 2 homosexuals should not own property either?

Yup just another strawman. Can you do anything else?

Its not a strawman when the old masonic books said there will be skeptics like you that exist. This is no surprise. But if you ever decide to stop being a scientist and start dealing with the real world let me now. I can show you some things that may make you either scared to death, or a believer.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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6/29/2015 4:13:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 3:49:48 PM, inferno wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:46:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:28:48 PM, Elli87e wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.


I assume you are gay? Of course you are. Cause no person would ever be so sure of how a relationship between 2 people works if he/she had not lived it. I don't know. I am not gay. However I have seen deep meaningful love between 2 men. Why do you assume that its only about sex? Isn't it rather creepy to focus that much on how other people have sex? So your problem is not with 2 men living together, but the fact that they have a piece of paper in their hands saying the are lawfully a couple? Does it weaken your marriage if they have that paper?

It is not about being a couple. It is about creating a stable complementary environment for begetting and raising children. The fact that every culture has some form of marriage for this express purpose just proves how universal and fundamental it is to human nature.

Yes my marriage is weakened by redefining it into something less than it truly is. Words have meaning. And when you change the meaning you change how society as a whole responds to it.

Once upon a time you all hated black people and did not even allow them to ride the bus. You also did not allow a black and a white person to get married. If you had asked an opponent back then he might have given the same answer you just did above.

Being black is a mere genetic characteristic and not at all the same as a behaviour.

Is there a possibility that you could represent one of those opponents back then?

Nope.

That you could be wrong? That in 20 years we shake our heads at the sick ways people tried to control one an other?

You got that right.

I always wonder: how does it affect you? Is your life in any way changed the day your neighbours get married? And who are you to judge? When THAT many people around the world are gay I just don't logically think of to even be a possibility that its just "lust".

You haven't actually addressing my points yet, but just strawmanning as you go.

Besides: you are still describing the religious view on marriage. Our view is very different here. It has nothing to do with population the earth or being monogamous. To us marriage is a gathering of 2 people who love each other. And also it is a practical thing. It makes it easier when you own property etc.

I'm describing what most cultures regardless of religion have generally held to be true. I don't remember mentioning God once. If I did please show me where.

But I guess 2 homosexuals should not own property either?

Yup just another strawman. Can you do anything else?

Its not a strawman when the old masonic books said there will be skeptics like you that exist. This is no surprise.

Lol. Now look who is being "religious".

But if you ever decide to stop being a scientist and start dealing with the real world let me now. I can show you some things that may make you either scared to death, or a believer.

Whether it being an aspect of divine will or an artifact of evolution, there are certain social arrangements that provide the best result and some that are destructive. I think we can all agree on that.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,130
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6/29/2015 4:17:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

No, it doesn't. My marriage is just a valuable now as it was before. I don't love my wife any less, and my promise to her is no less binding. What other people do with their marriages (or how they have sex) has absolutely no affect on mine.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

No, it's not. Some hetero couples marry with no intention of ever having children, and I'm sure that is not an issue for you. Not to mention, hetero couples engage in types of sex that cannot bring about children, and that has no affect on the institution of marriage, either.

Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.

Self satisfaction? No more so than hetero marriages. If anything homosexual couples are more devoted/monogamous than hetero couples. I saw a source on this recently - I could probably find it if you are interested.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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6/29/2015 4:28:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 3:35:43 PM, inferno wrote:

It is a sin simple and plain. Now show me how two people of the same sex can create a child.

No need for that...

"There are over 120,000 orphans in America, while another 400,000 children live without permanent families (HHS; AFCARS).
It is common for children in foster care to age out, leaving them with little financial or emotional support. 27,000 children age out of the system every year (AFCARS).

http://www.sos-usa.org...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Elli87e
Posts: 45
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6/29/2015 4:34:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 4:17:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

No, it doesn't. My marriage is just a valuable now as it was before. I don't love my wife any less, and my promise to her is no less binding. What other people do with their marriages (or how they have sex) has absolutely no affect on mine.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

No, it's not. Some hetero couples marry with no intention of ever having children, and I'm sure that is not an issue for you. Not to mention, hetero couples engage in types of sex that cannot bring about children, and that has no affect on the institution of marriage, either.

Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.

Self satisfaction? No more so than hetero marriages. If anything homosexual couples are more devoted/monogamous than hetero couples. I saw a source on this recently - I could probably find it if you are interested.

Thank you! You are pointing out exactly how I feel on the matter.

The last part about the self satisfaction is actually a big deal I think. The misunderstanding that gay relationships are only sexual. Many straight guys feel uncomfortable and say stuff like "I just don't want him coming on to me". Well guess what...just because you are gay you don't just have a need to jump all men! Stop making it into something animalistic satisfaction hunt!
You are right! Gay couples who are in serious relationships and/or get married are more likely to stay together. I have read about that as well. I have also seen it. One of the strongest and most loving relationships I have ever seen is between 2 men.
You don't look at your straight neighbour thinking "hu...I wonder how they have sex"...why would you we so occupied with how a gay couple has sex?

Its a about love. You can't always understand why people love someone. But its not your job to stop it or hate. Just let people live their lives.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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6/29/2015 4:51:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 4:17:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

No, it doesn't. My marriage is just a valuable now as it was before. I don't love my wife any less, and my promise to her is no less binding. What other people do with their marriages (or how they have sex) has absolutely no affect on mine.

Sure it does. It is like a currency devaluation. Yes you still have a $100, but society only values it for $10 of purchasing power. So yes it is internally the same, but externally much less.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

No, it's not. Some hetero couples marry with no intention of ever having children, and I'm sure that is not an issue for you. Not to mention, hetero couples engage in types of sex that cannot bring about children, and that has no affect on the institution of marriage, either.

So 2 wrongs don't make a right. The fact that we have previously devalued marriage does not mean that further devaluation is not a devaluation.

Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.

Self satisfaction? No more so than hetero marriages. If anything homosexual couples are more devoted/monogamous than hetero couples. I saw a source on this recently - I could probably find it if you are interested.

Lol! The last I read in the Netherlands, the average partnered couple has an average of 8 additional partners per year.

A Canadian study showed that in relationships that lasted for longer than one year only 25% of gay men remained monogamous.

Whereas a study in the Journal of Sex Research showed that 77% of men and 88% of women remained monogamous.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/29/2015 4:56:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:

It weakens the institution of marriage.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

So, barren people should never wed, and couples past child-raising age should divorce since their continued cohabitation and intimacy weaken the institution of marriage?

Or, if barren people can wed and adopt, why cannot gay people do the same? And if couples past child-raising age can continue to live together, enjoy old age together, and contribute to the community together, why cannot gay people do the same?
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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6/29/2015 5:05:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 4:17:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

No, it doesn't. My marriage is just a valuable now as it was before. I don't love my wife any less, and my promise to her is no less binding. What other people do with their marriages (or how they have sex) has absolutely no affect on mine.

Redherring. Discuss why it doesn't affect the institution, not your personal life.
What social changes do you expect to happen 30 years from now, and what message would the word "marriage hold"? If it is something along the line of "adult romance", consider it weakened as it implies the governament dwells into people's private lives, and that marriage is arbitrary and irrational. Why no tax cuts to polygamy or incest, or a strong non-sexual friendship?


Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

No, it's not. Some hetero couples marry with no intention of ever having children, and I'm sure that is not an issue for you. Not to mention, hetero couples engage in types of sex that cannot bring about children, and that has no affect on the institution of marriage, either.

And some people commit medicare fraud. And some of those hetero couples end up having children anyway.


Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.

Self satisfaction? No more so than hetero marriages. If anything homosexual couples are more devoted/monogamous than hetero couples. I saw a source on this recently - I could probably find it if you are interested.

If the study doesn't have decent methodology, then don't bother.
Your statement is a strawman, probably because you misunderstood him. How can the concept of gay union benefit community and society more than almost any other interpersonal relationship?
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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6/29/2015 5:23:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If somebody down the street, anybody, and it devalues your marriage then it's you who should be barred from marrying.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
iSpy
Posts: 41
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6/29/2015 5:25:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 4:51:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 4:17:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:

No, it doesn't. My marriage is just a valuable now as it was before. I don't love my wife any less, and my promise to her is no less binding. What other people do with their marriages (or how they have sex) has absolutely no affect on mine.

Sure it does. It is like a currency devaluation. Yes you still have a $100, but society only values it for $10 of purchasing power. So yes it is internally the same, but externally much less.

I don't understand your metaphor.

WHO specifically now values your marriage less externally? What is the effect that is has on your marriage as a result? What have you lost or given up in your marriage personally due to homosexual couples being allowed to marry?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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6/29/2015 5:27:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 4:56:29 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:

It weakens the institution of marriage.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

So, barren people should never wed, and couples past child-raising age should divorce since their continued cohabitation and intimacy weaken the institution of marriage?

Those unions are in keeping with the natural order and in no way lessen the institution of marriage. That the "accident" of nature or age prevents the sexual union from producing the fruit of the act. It is no accident that same-sex sex does not produce children.

Or, if barren people can wed and adopt, why cannot gay people do the same?

A gay relationship does not possess the complementarity of the sexes, gay relationships are less monogamous, gay relationships do not last as long.

And if couples past child-raising age can continue to live together, enjoy old age together, and contribute to the community together, why cannot gay people do the same?

They can. Just don't call it marriage.
inferno
Posts: 10,660
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6/29/2015 5:30:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 4:13:02 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:49:48 PM, inferno wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:46:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:28:48 PM, Elli87e wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.


I assume you are gay? Of course you are. Cause no person would ever be so sure of how a relationship between 2 people works if he/she had not lived it. I don't know. I am not gay. However I have seen deep meaningful love between 2 men. Why do you assume that its only about sex? Isn't it rather creepy to focus that much on how other people have sex? So your problem is not with 2 men living together, but the fact that they have a piece of paper in their hands saying the are lawfully a couple? Does it weaken your marriage if they have that paper?

It is not about being a couple. It is about creating a stable complementary environment for begetting and raising children. The fact that every culture has some form of marriage for this express purpose just proves how universal and fundamental it is to human nature.

Yes my marriage is weakened by redefining it into something less than it truly is. Words have meaning. And when you change the meaning you change how society as a whole responds to it.

Once upon a time you all hated black people and did not even allow them to ride the bus. You also did not allow a black and a white person to get married. If you had asked an opponent back then he might have given the same answer you just did above.

Being black is a mere genetic characteristic and not at all the same as a behaviour.

Is there a possibility that you could represent one of those opponents back then?

Nope.

That you could be wrong? That in 20 years we shake our heads at the sick ways people tried to control one an other?

You got that right.

I always wonder: how does it affect you? Is your life in any way changed the day your neighbours get married? And who are you to judge? When THAT many people around the world are gay I just don't logically think of to even be a possibility that its just "lust".

You haven't actually addressing my points yet, but just strawmanning as you go.

Besides: you are still describing the religious view on marriage. Our view is very different here. It has nothing to do with population the earth or being monogamous. To us marriage is a gathering of 2 people who love each other. And also it is a practical thing. It makes it easier when you own property etc.

I'm describing what most cultures regardless of religion have generally held to be true. I don't remember mentioning God once. If I did please show me where.

But I guess 2 homosexuals should not own property either?

Yup just another strawman. Can you do anything else?

Its not a strawman when the old masonic books said there will be skeptics like you that exist. This is no surprise.

Lol. Now look who is being "religious".

But if you ever decide to stop being a scientist and start dealing with the real world let me now. I can show you some things that may make you either scared to death, or a believer.

Whether it being an aspect of divine will or an artifact of evolution, there are certain social arrangements that provide the best result and some that are destructive. I think we can all agree on that.

Well that may be true. But like I said those who have seen the other side knows whats there. Those who have not, well theyre just unexposed. Its just that simple.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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6/29/2015 5:31:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 3:46:19 PM, Elli87e wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:35:43 PM, inferno wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It is a sin simple and plain. Now show me how two people of the same sex can create a child.

Oh thank you so much. I really thought it would take longer for someone to bring up religion. I was waiting on someone to do it. Because it is ignorant and so obvious.
The whole idea was to have a valid, thoughtful discussion that for ONCE did not involve religion. You know why? Because then we could all be equals for a second. We could take science, humanity, kindness, all of those things that all people know about. NOT religion. Because that is only for some. And for you to say "its a sin" is to me as invalid a response as saying "because I eat cereal for breakfast". It means nothing.

So all the couples in this world struggling to have children should naturally be forced to divorce.

When did the Danes legalize polygamy? After all, if a man (or woman) has enough money and desire, there's really nothing wrong with marrying ... let's see ... two men and two women. Therefore, you'd have one man married to four people, two of each sex.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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6/29/2015 5:31:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 5:25:46 PM, iSpy wrote:
At 6/29/2015 4:51:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 4:17:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:

No, it doesn't. My marriage is just a valuable now as it was before. I don't love my wife any less, and my promise to her is no less binding. What other people do with their marriages (or how they have sex) has absolutely no affect on mine.

Sure it does. It is like a currency devaluation. Yes you still have a $100, but society only values it for $10 of purchasing power. So yes it is internally the same, but externally much less.

I don't understand your metaphor.

WHO specifically now values your marriage less externally?

Society as a whole. Marriage has been on the decline for decades since we removed the implicit acceptance that sex is procreative in nature from our understanding.

What is the effect that is has on your marriage as a result?

Marriage now about about personal satisfaction and not about creating an environment for the family to be created and to prosper. The immediate effects are not apparent because people have an existing mind-set. However, it will only degrade over time. Just look at how casual divorce has become. People now hold divorce parties - a long ways from for better or worse until death do us part.

What have you lost or given up in your marriage personally due to homosexual couples being allowed to marry?

Societal cohesion that helps maintain marriage.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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6/29/2015 5:36:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 5:30:37 PM, inferno wrote:
At 6/29/2015 4:13:02 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:49:48 PM, inferno wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:46:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:28:48 PM, Elli87e wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.


I assume you are gay? Of course you are. Cause no person would ever be so sure of how a relationship between 2 people works if he/she had not lived it. I don't know. I am not gay. However I have seen deep meaningful love between 2 men. Why do you assume that its only about sex? Isn't it rather creepy to focus that much on how other people have sex? So your problem is not with 2 men living together, but the fact that they have a piece of paper in their hands saying the are lawfully a couple? Does it weaken your marriage if they have that paper?

It is not about being a couple. It is about creating a stable complementary environment for begetting and raising children. The fact that every culture has some form of marriage for this express purpose just proves how universal and fundamental it is to human nature.

Yes my marriage is weakened by redefining it into something less than it truly is. Words have meaning. And when you change the meaning you change how society as a whole responds to it.

Once upon a time you all hated black people and did not even allow them to ride the bus. You also did not allow a black and a white person to get married. If you had asked an opponent back then he might have given the same answer you just did above.

Being black is a mere genetic characteristic and not at all the same as a behaviour.

Is there a possibility that you could represent one of those opponents back then?

Nope.

That you could be wrong? That in 20 years we shake our heads at the sick ways people tried to control one an other?

You got that right.

I always wonder: how does it affect you? Is your life in any way changed the day your neighbours get married? And who are you to judge? When THAT many people around the world are gay I just don't logically think of to even be a possibility that its just "lust".

You haven't actually addressing my points yet, but just strawmanning as you go.

Besides: you are still describing the religious view on marriage. Our view is very different here. It has nothing to do with population the earth or being monogamous. To us marriage is a gathering of 2 people who love each other. And also it is a practical thing. It makes it easier when you own property etc.

I'm describing what most cultures regardless of religion have generally held to be true. I don't remember mentioning God once. If I did please show me where.

But I guess 2 homosexuals should not own property either?

Yup just another strawman. Can you do anything else?

Its not a strawman when the old masonic books said there will be skeptics like you that exist. This is no surprise.

Lol. Now look who is being "religious".

But if you ever decide to stop being a scientist and start dealing with the real world let me now. I can show you some things that may make you either scared to death, or a believer.

Whether it being an aspect of divine will or an artifact of evolution, there are certain social arrangements that provide the best result and some that are destructive. I think we can all agree on that.

Well that may be true.

Yup.

But like I said those who have seen the other side knows whats there. Those who have not, well theyre just unexposed. Its just that simple.

Lol. You expect me to believe an evil organization like the masons? Of course there will always be skeptics to this kind of change - they are called Catholics.
Elli87e
Posts: 45
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6/29/2015 5:41:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 5:31:36 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:46:19 PM, Elli87e wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:35:43 PM, inferno wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It is a sin simple and plain. Now show me how two people of the same sex can create a child.

Oh thank you so much. I really thought it would take longer for someone to bring up religion. I was waiting on someone to do it. Because it is ignorant and so obvious.
The whole idea was to have a valid, thoughtful discussion that for ONCE did not involve religion. You know why? Because then we could all be equals for a second. We could take science, humanity, kindness, all of those things that all people know about. NOT religion. Because that is only for some. And for you to say "its a sin" is to me as invalid a response as saying "because I eat cereal for breakfast". It means nothing.

So all the couples in this world struggling to have children should naturally be forced to divorce.

When did the Danes legalize polygamy? After all, if a man (or woman) has enough money and desire, there's really nothing wrong with marrying ... let's see ... two men and two women. Therefore, you'd have one man married to four people, two of each sex.

By all means! Go ahead! What does that have to do with Denmark though?
On a moral ground I don't care. As long as children involved are being loved and cared for I don't see why I should be the judge on that. How ever there are many legal issues on the subject. Marriage normally involves 2 people and therefor the legal system here at least has been build up around that. This is in regards to children, property and money. Those laws are not affected just because the marriage is between 2 men or 2 women.
We do not have a general need to change that law though because there are so few living in polygamist relationships. We don't have mormons and we don't have cults. I heard about a few people living in 3's...I don't see a problem with that. I see a problem with a sect. Cause then its often forceful or manipulated. But sects are also forbidden here.

But if you are secretly trying to make me say that this is a different thing and its wrong you failed. I don't see how I can be the judge. People live lives in secret all the time. We all know it goes on...so why not let people be happy and live openly!?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/29/2015 5:44:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 5:27:02 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 4:56:29 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
It weakens the institution of marriage.
Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.
So, barren people should never wed, and couples past child-raising age should divorce since their continued cohabitation and intimacy weaken the institution of marriage?
Those unions are in keeping with the natural order
So 500 - 1,500 species, including bonobo and other apes, elephants, giraffes, monkeys, lions, sheep, dolphin and American bison, black swans, gulls, ibises, mallards, penguins, vultures and pigeons never engage in homosexuality?

Or, if barren people can wed and adopt, why cannot gay people do the same?
A gay relationship does not possess the complementarity of the sexes,
So tomboys should not marry?

gay relationships are less monogamous,
So heterosexual partners who cheat on their relationships (33 percent of men and 19 percent of women) should divorce, and never be permitted to remarry?

gay relationships do not last as long.
So heterosexual people, once divorced, should never be permitted to remarry?

And if couples past child-raising age can continue to live together, enjoy old age together, and contribute to the community together, why cannot gay people do the same?
They can. Just don't call it marriage.

Hmmm. Because a faithful lifelong gay couple living together next door, kissing, hugging, shopping together, and wearing gold rings on their ring-fingers will weaken the institution of marriage if they say they are married, but not if they don't?

And this weakness will manifest how in heterosexual relationships?

How much later will a couple living together get married if the gay couple next door can actually marry?
How much sooner will heterosexual couples divorce in consequence of the lifelong gay couple next door saying they are married?
How fewer children will they have if the gay couple next door say they are also married?

And why will they do that?
Elli87e
Posts: 45
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6/29/2015 5:46:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 5:27:02 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 4:56:29 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:

It weakens the institution of marriage.

Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

So, barren people should never wed, and couples past child-raising age should divorce since their continued cohabitation and intimacy weaken the institution of marriage?

Those unions are in keeping with the natural order and in no way lessen the institution of marriage. That the "accident" of nature or age prevents the sexual union from producing the fruit of the act. It is no accident that same-sex sex does not produce children.

Or, if barren people can wed and adopt, why cannot gay people do the same?

A gay relationship does not possess the complementarity of the sexes, gay relationships are less monogamous, gay relationships do not last as long.

And if couples past child-raising age can continue to live together, enjoy old age together, and contribute to the community together, why cannot gay people do the same?

They can. Just don't call it marriage.

"A gay relationship does not possess the complementarity of the sexes, gay relationships are less monogamous, gay relationships do not last as long" on what do you base this? It would be stupid to make statements like this without a very reliable source. So I of course am very eager to read the study you have made on the subject.

"They can. Just don't call it marriage." How is your life affected? Why does it matter? If they want to secure the children they adopt? How can you oppose a stable secure environment for a child?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,130
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6/29/2015 5:46:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 5:05:55 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 6/29/2015 4:17:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:46:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It weakens the institution of marriage.

No, it doesn't. My marriage is just a valuable now as it was before. I don't love my wife any less, and my promise to her is no less binding. What other people do with their marriages (or how they have sex) has absolutely no affect on mine.

Redherring. Discuss why it doesn't affect the institution, not your personal life.

I did through a personal a personal example.

What social changes do you expect to happen 30 years from now, and what message would the word "marriage hold"?

Marriage is the union of life partners, people in love who wish to make their relationship exclusive permanently. That's what it means now, and I see no reason why it will change in the future. As long as these partners are committed, it doesn't matter if they happen to be the same sex

If it is something along the line of "adult romance", consider it weakened as it implies the governament dwells into people's private lives, and that marriage is arbitrary and irrational. Why no tax cuts to polygamy or incest, or a strong non-sexual friendship?

Now that is a red herring. We're discussing homosexuality.


Marriage is fundamentally about two people who are sexually exclusive to each in a self sacrificial complementary union for the purposes of begetting and raising the next generation.

No, it's not. Some hetero couples marry with no intention of ever having children, and I'm sure that is not an issue for you. Not to mention, hetero couples engage in types of sex that cannot bring about children, and that has no affect on the institution of marriage, either.

And some people commit medicare fraud. And some of those hetero couples end up having children anyway.

...random.


Gay marriage is about self satisfaction of the people entering the union. Thus marriage is redefined and loses meaning to the broad population as practice influences opinion.

Self satisfaction? No more so than hetero marriages. If anything homosexual couples are more devoted/monogamous than hetero couples. I saw a source on this recently - I could probably find it if you are interested.

If the study doesn't have decent methodology, then don't bother.
Your statement is a strawman, probably because you misunderstood him. How can the concept of gay union benefit community and society more than almost any other interpersonal relationship?

No matter how you take the statement, my response is still adequate. Gay unions are no more about self satisfaction than hetero unions. Out of time - another time perhaps.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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6/29/2015 5:46:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 5:41:23 PM, Elli87e wrote:
At 6/29/2015 5:31:36 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:46:19 PM, Elli87e wrote:
At 6/29/2015 3:35:43 PM, inferno wrote:
At 6/29/2015 2:26:01 PM, Elli87e wrote:
So here is my dare:

I dare you to give me valid, intelligent reasons why gay marriage should not be legal. But here is the catch: don't use religion.

To a Danish girl as myself it has been quite interesting, frightening and laughable even to watch the American debate about Gay Marriage. Because this debate is so old new to us. We actually was the first country to legalise registered partnership between same sex couples. However we only recently legalised marriage. Why? Because it would require the change of a law and in general the church does not mean that much to people, so the issue simply has not been that big. Also it is very normal for couples, hetero of homo to live together without being married. But we are happy that we did legalise it!!

So here is why we are frightened by America: you bring religion into everything. Here religion is not a valid reason for making a law or for not changing one. People may have opinions about it but we never seriously take a religious point of view into account when we talk politics.

All those against gay marriage use religion to argument their view. To me it is not valid. I respect religion, I truly do! I think everyone are entitled to believe and should be free to do so. But using a religion to make a law or to NOT change a law is not fair. It is not fair because you take you views and you force other people to live by them.

I have heard many christians say that gay people are forcing their sinfulness on others. I just don't see that. How can it be THAT important to you who your neighbour is having sex with? As long as nobody is hurting anyone?
I also heard people say that sodomy is the issue. Now that part is where we laugh here!! You really want to go into specifics on HOW people have sex? Straight people have anal sex as well!

I am a liberal. I am also an atheist. I respect religion, but do not believe myself. I am also a part of one of the best functioning social security systems in the world. And we are some of the happiest people on earth. Maybe because the majority does not tolerate violence and hate against minorities.


BUT all in all: I would really like to hear some valid arguments that do NOT involve religion.
Bring it on :)

It is a sin simple and plain. Now show me how two people of the same sex can create a child.

Oh thank you so much. I really thought it would take longer for someone to bring up religion. I was waiting on someone to do it. Because it is ignorant and so obvious.
The whole idea was to have a valid, thoughtful discussion that for ONCE did not involve religion. You know why? Because then we could all be equals for a second. We could take science, humanity, kindness, all of those things that all people know about. NOT religion. Because that is only for some. And for you to say "its a sin" is to me as invalid a response as saying "because I eat cereal for breakfast". It means nothing.

So all the couples in this world struggling to have children should naturally be forced to divorce.

When did the Danes legalize polygamy? After all, if a man (or woman) has enough money and desire, there's really nothing wrong with marrying ... let's see ... two men and two women. Therefore, you'd have one man married to four people, two of each sex.

By all means! Go ahead! What does that have to do with Denmark though?
On a moral ground I don't care. As long as children involved are being loved and cared for I don't see why I should be the judge on that. How ever there are many legal issues on the subject. Marriage normally involves 2 people

Who said it involves two people? The very nature of your OP disregards what's "normal" and seeks to defend what's abnormal. Certainly two men marrying each other is .... ummm ... a tad abnormal, but then again, so is one man marrying three women. In your view, one old man could "morally" marry fifty women, then when he dies, they can each get a monthly government check for their efforts. In fact, an enterprising young gal could marry twenty old men and just wait on 'em to drop off, one by one. By the time she turned forty, she'd be wealthy! Is that the Danish system you envision?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."