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Loving God?

ATHOS
Posts: 123
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6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
Cryo
Posts: 202
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7/1/2015 12:18:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Stands up, grabs the mic and clears throat:
It's simple! Free will. You see, the reason there's evil and pain and suffering in the world is because God gave us all free will so that we'd...
*whisper*
What do you mean that doesn't answer the question?
*whisper whisper*
Natural evil? What are you talk...
*whisper whisper whisper*
Oh, well that's easy. It all goes back to free will! You see, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into the world and sin broke the world, that's why...
*whisper whisper*
Well of course it's not fair for people to be punished for someone else's decisions but...
*whisper whisper*
No, that's different...
*whisper whisper whisper*
No, God can't intervene because that would violate our free wil!
*whisper whisper*
Alright, I suppose curing cancer or eradicating viruses wouldn't violate our free will at all, but God has a plan and...
*whisper whisper whisper*
What do you mean Superman would cure cancer if he could? Superman is not God! God has a plan and how arrogant are you to think you could do better? Superman's not even real!
*whisper snicker*
Oh... you atheists think you're sooo clever with your logic and your jokes. Why can't you heathens just leave us Christians alone? Stop persecuting me!
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/1/2015 12:43:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Hello my friend. Before I discuss this with you, would you care to answer a few questions?

Do you believe in any sort of God?

Do you believe in free will?

Do you believe if God does exist, He must be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?

Thank you.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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7/1/2015 2:05:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The things attributed to the deity in the Bible are EVIL. Loving it would be worse than loving Hitler!
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
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7/1/2015 2:32:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 12:18:08 AM, Cryo wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Stands up, grabs the mic and clears throat:
It's simple! Free will. You see, the reason there's evil and pain and suffering in the world is because God gave us all free will so that we'd...
*whisper*
What do you mean that doesn't answer the question?
*whisper whisper*
Natural evil? What are you talk...
*whisper whisper whisper*
Oh, well that's easy. It all goes back to free will! You see, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into the world and sin broke the world, that's why...
*whisper whisper*
Well of course it's not fair for people to be punished for someone else's decisions but...
*whisper whisper*
No, that's different...
*whisper whisper whisper*
No, God can't intervene because that would violate our free wil!
*whisper whisper*
Alright, I suppose curing cancer or eradicating viruses wouldn't violate our free will at all, but God has a plan and...
*whisper whisper whisper*
What do you mean Superman would cure cancer if he could? Superman is not God! God has a plan and how arrogant are you to think you could do better? Superman's not even real!
*whisper snicker*
Oh... you atheists think you're sooo clever with your logic and your jokes. Why can't you heathens just leave us Christians alone? Stop persecuting me!

+1

I'm still smiling. Watch annonymouswho regurgitate some variation of the above.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/1/2015 2:56:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 2:32:51 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:18:08 AM, Cryo wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Stands up, grabs the mic and clears throat:
It's simple! Free will. You see, the reason there's evil and pain and suffering in the world is because God gave us all free will so that we'd...
*whisper*
What do you mean that doesn't answer the question?
*whisper whisper*
Natural evil? What are you talk...
*whisper whisper whisper*
Oh, well that's easy. It all goes back to free will! You see, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into the world and sin broke the world, that's why...
*whisper whisper*
Well of course it's not fair for people to be punished for someone else's decisions but...
*whisper whisper*
No, that's different...
*whisper whisper whisper*
No, God can't intervene because that would violate our free wil!
*whisper whisper*
Alright, I suppose curing cancer or eradicating viruses wouldn't violate our free will at all, but God has a plan and...
*whisper whisper whisper*
What do you mean Superman would cure cancer if he could? Superman is not God! God has a plan and how arrogant are you to think you could do better? Superman's not even real!
*whisper snicker*
Oh... you atheists think you're sooo clever with your logic and your jokes. Why can't you heathens just leave us Christians alone? Stop persecuting me!

+1

I'm still smiling. Watch annonymouswho regurgitate some variation of the above.

I don't believe in free will, so why would I repeat what Cryo said? I've spent countless hours talking to you about this. Do you still think that I believe in free will after all the conversations we've had about Determinism, Cause and Effect, Newtonian Mechanics, and Pilot-Wave Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. I'm sorry, I'm just confused why you'd say that. Thanks dee-em
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/1/2015 3:15:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 12:43:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Hello my friend. Before I discuss this with you, would you care to answer a few questions?

Do you believe in any sort of God?
I could believe in a non-dual god. A god that does not possess opposing chacteristics, eg, love and fear, forgiveness and wrath, giving and taking, war and peace, time and eternity ...and so on.
A god that is wholly consistent
Do you believe in free will?
yes. as it applies to everyone including god
Do you believe if God does exist, He must be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?
yes
Thank you.
I have a few questions of my own follwed by a scenario:
Parents also give their childen "free will".
A) What would you say of a parent that places their young child in a room with a basket full of razors and tells the child not to play with the basket?

B) What if the parent intervenes to prevent the child from injuring them self, would this be in violation of the childs free will? Don't parents also have free will and keep their children from harm when neccesary?

C)) Why would a "loving god" place its creations in a similar scenario given the idea that it's omniscient?
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/1/2015 5:16:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 3:15:46 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:43:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Hello my friend. Before I discuss this with you, would you care to answer a few questions?

Do you believe in any sort of God?
I could believe in a non-dual god. A god that does not possess opposing chacteristics, eg, love and fear, forgiveness and wrath, giving and taking, war and peace, time and eternity ...and so on.
A god that is wholly consistent

Great! I agree that God must be consistent and He must be One.

He Must have One Purpose and be powerful enough to accomplish it.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is NONE ELSE; I am God, and there is NONE LIKE ME,
Declaring the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:9

Because He created us without our consent, then it is reasonable to believe that He Loves us all:

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." 1 John 4:15

Because He Loves us all, and because He IS Love, then it is reasonable to assume that He is all forgiving:

"Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth NOT his anger for ever, because he DELIGHTETH IN MERCY." Micah 7:18

Because He is all forgiving, then it is reasonable to assume that His forgiveness is not necessarily something we attain through anything we do, but rather it is freely given to us because of His Love:

"For BY GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8

Do you believe in free will?

yes. as it applies to everyone including god

Do you believe if God does exist, He must be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?
yes

If God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, then is it still consistent to say that we have a "free" will? If God is all powerful, can we thwart His will? If God is past, present, and future, does this mean God has already seen all that has and will happen? If God has already Determined and Completed His Work, and He knows all things, is it possible that we can make any independent choice other than what He has Determined? I deny free will for several reasons.

1) It is inconsistent with the Omni attributes of God

2) The Scriptures know of no such thing. Rather, they tell us

"For it is God which WORKETH in you both to WILL and to DO of his good PLEASURE." Philippians 2:13

3) It defies the Laws of Physics. An Effect cannot precede it's Cause, and all things are Caused by the prior Effect. God is the Great Cause of all things.

4) I despise contradictions

Thank you.
I have a few questions of my own follwed by a scenario:
Parents also give their childen "free will".
A) What would you say of a parent that places their young child in a room with a basket full of razors and tells the child not to play with the basket?

B) What if the parent intervenes to prevent the child from injuring them self, would this be in violation of the childs free will? Don't parents also have free will and keep their children from harm when neccesary?

C)) Why would a "loving god" place its creations in a similar scenario given the idea that it's omniscient?

Again, I don't believe in free will, so I can't really answer these questions. What I can attempt to do is explain why God has created Evil and subjected us to. But first I would like to know if you feel I've been consistent so far. I'd also like to know if the preservation of free will is essential in order for you to accept a proposition; or if you'd be willing to deny free will if reasonable evidence was provided.

Thank you my friend. I hope to hear from you soon.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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7/1/2015 5:26:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 5:16:38 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 3:15:46 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:43:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Hello my friend. Before I discuss this with you, would you care to answer a few questions?

Do you believe in any sort of God?
I could believe in a non-dual god. A god that does not possess opposing chacteristics, eg, love and fear, forgiveness and wrath, giving and taking, war and peace, time and eternity ...and so on.
A god that is wholly consistent

Great! I agree that God must be consistent and He must be One.

He Must have One Purpose and be powerful enough to accomplish it.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is NONE ELSE; I am God, and there is NONE LIKE ME,
Declaring the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:9

Because He created us without our consent, then it is reasonable to believe that He Loves us all:

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." 1 John 4:15

Because He Loves us all, and because He IS Love, then it is reasonable to assume that He is all forgiving:

"Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth NOT his anger for ever, because he DELIGHTETH IN MERCY." Micah 7:18

Because He is all forgiving, then it is reasonable to assume that His forgiveness is not necessarily something we attain through anything we do, but rather it is freely given to us because of His Love:

"For BY GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8

Do you believe in free will?

yes. as it applies to everyone including god

Do you believe if God does exist, He must be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?
yes

If God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, then is it still consistent to say that we have a "free" will? If God is all powerful, can we thwart His will? If God is past, present, and future, does this mean God has already seen all that has and will happen? If God has already Determined and Completed His Work, and He knows all things, is it possible that we can make any independent choice other than what He has Determined? I deny free will for several reasons.

1) It is inconsistent with the Omni attributes of God

2) The Scriptures know of no such thing. Rather, they tell us

"For it is God which WORKETH in you both to WILL and to DO of his good PLEASURE." Philippians 2:13

3) It defies the Laws of Physics. An Effect cannot precede it's Cause, and all things are Caused by the prior Effect. God is the Great Cause of all things.

4) I despise contradictions

Thank you.
I have a few questions of my own follwed by a scenario:
Parents also give their childen "free will".
A) What would you say of a parent that places their young child in a room with a basket full of razors and tells the child not to play with the basket?

B) What if the parent intervenes to prevent the child from injuring them self, would this be in violation of the childs free will? Don't parents also have free will and keep their children from harm when neccesary?

C)) Why would a "loving god" place its creations in a similar scenario given the idea that it's omniscient?

Again, I don't believe in free will, so I can't really answer these questions. What I can attempt to do is explain why God has created Evil and subjected us to. But first I would like to know if you feel I've been consistent so far. I'd also like to know if the preservation of free will is essential in order for you to accept a proposition; or if you'd be willing to deny free will if reasonable evidence was provided.

Thank you my friend. I hope to hear from you soon.

Now that really would take some explaining. The most logical answer is that the evil deity enjoys seeing its human pawns suffer!
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
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7/1/2015 5:42:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 2:56:46 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:32:51 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:18:08 AM, Cryo wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Stands up, grabs the mic and clears throat:
It's simple! Free will. You see, the reason there's evil and pain and suffering in the world is because God gave us all free will so that we'd...
*whisper*
What do you mean that doesn't answer the question?
*whisper whisper*
Natural evil? What are you talk...
*whisper whisper whisper*
Oh, well that's easy. It all goes back to free will! You see, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into the world and sin broke the world, that's why...
*whisper whisper*
Well of course it's not fair for people to be punished for someone else's decisions but...
*whisper whisper*
No, that's different...
*whisper whisper whisper*
No, God can't intervene because that would violate our free wil!
*whisper whisper*
Alright, I suppose curing cancer or eradicating viruses wouldn't violate our free will at all, but God has a plan and...
*whisper whisper whisper*
What do you mean Superman would cure cancer if he could? Superman is not God! God has a plan and how arrogant are you to think you could do better? Superman's not even real!
*whisper snicker*
Oh... you atheists think you're sooo clever with your logic and your jokes. Why can't you heathens just leave us Christians alone? Stop persecuting me!

+1

I'm still smiling. Watch annonymouswho regurgitate some variation of the above.

I don't believe in free will, so why would I repeat what Cryo said? I've spent countless hours talking to you about this. Do you still think that I believe in free will after all the conversations we've had about Determinism, Cause and Effect, Newtonian Mechanics, and Pilot-Wave Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. I'm sorry, I'm just confused why you'd say that. Thanks dee-em

I think you're confusing me with someone else. :-)
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/1/2015 6:21:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 5:16:38 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 3:15:46 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:43:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Hello my friend. Before I discuss this with you, would you care to answer a few questions?

Do you believe in any sort of God?
I could believe in a non-dual god. A god that does not possess opposing chacteristics, eg, love and fear, forgiveness and wrath, giving and taking, war and peace, time and eternity ...and so on.
A god that is wholly consistent

Great! I agree that God must be consistent and He must be One.

He Must have One Purpose and be powerful enough to accomplish it.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is NONE ELSE; I am God, and there is NONE LIKE ME,
Declaring the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:9

Because He created us without our consent, then it is reasonable to believe that He Loves us all:

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." 1 John 4:15

Because He Loves us all, and because He IS Love, then it is reasonable to assume that He is all forgiving:

"Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth NOT his anger for ever, because he DELIGHTETH IN MERCY." Micah 7:18

Because He is all forgiving, then it is reasonable to assume that His forgiveness is not necessarily something we attain through anything we do, but rather it is freely given to us because of His Love:

"For BY GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8

Do you believe in free will?

yes. as it applies to everyone including god

Do you believe if God does exist, He must be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?
yes

If God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, then is it still consistent to say that we have a "free" will? If God is all powerful, can we thwart His will? If God is past, present, and future, does this mean God has already seen all that has and will happen? If God has already Determined and Completed His Work, and He knows all things, is it possible that we can make any independent choice other than what He has Determined? I deny free will for several reasons.

1) It is inconsistent with the Omni attributes of God

2) The Scriptures know of no such thing. Rather, they tell us

"For it is God which WORKETH in you both to WILL and to DO of his good PLEASURE." Philippians 2:13

3) It defies the Laws of Physics. An Effect cannot precede it's Cause, and all things are Caused by the prior Effect. God is the Great Cause of all things.

4) I despise contradictions

Thank you.
I have a few questions of my own follwed by a scenario:
Parents also give their childen "free will".
A) What would you say of a parent that places their young child in a room with a basket full of razors and tells the child not to play with the basket?

B) What if the parent intervenes to prevent the child from injuring them self, would this be in violation of the childs free will? Don't parents also have free will and keep their children from harm when neccesary?

C)) Why would a "loving god" place its creations in a similar scenario given the idea that it's omniscient?

Again, I don't believe in free will, so I can't really answer these questions. What I can attempt to do is explain why God has created Evil and subjected us to. But first I would like to know if you feel I've been consistent so far. I'd also like to know if the preservation of free will is essential in order for you to accept a proposition; or if you'd be willing to deny free will if reasonable evidence was provided.

Thank you my friend. I hope to hear from you soon.

How does not believing in free will prevent you from answering my questions? Is it impossible for you to step outside of your belief system if only for just a moment and contribute to this discussion in a meaningful way?
It's your turn to answer questions my friend.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/1/2015 6:35:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 5:42:52 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:56:46 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:32:51 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:18:08 AM, Cryo wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Stands up, grabs the mic and clears throat:
It's simple! Free will. You see, the reason there's evil and pain and suffering in the world is because God gave us all free will so that we'd...
*whisper*
What do you mean that doesn't answer the question?
*whisper whisper*
Natural evil? What are you talk...
*whisper whisper whisper*
Oh, well that's easy. It all goes back to free will! You see, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into the world and sin broke the world, that's why...
*whisper whisper*
Well of course it's not fair for people to be punished for someone else's decisions but...
*whisper whisper*
No, that's different...
*whisper whisper whisper*
No, God can't intervene because that would violate our free wil!
*whisper whisper*
Alright, I suppose curing cancer or eradicating viruses wouldn't violate our free will at all, but God has a plan and...
*whisper whisper whisper*
What do you mean Superman would cure cancer if he could? Superman is not God! God has a plan and how arrogant are you to think you could do better? Superman's not even real!
*whisper snicker*
Oh... you atheists think you're sooo clever with your logic and your jokes. Why can't you heathens just leave us Christians alone? Stop persecuting me!

+1

I'm still smiling. Watch annonymouswho regurgitate some variation of the above.

I don't believe in free will, so why would I repeat what Cryo said? I've spent countless hours talking to you about this. Do you still think that I believe in free will after all the conversations we've had about Determinism, Cause and Effect, Newtonian Mechanics, and Pilot-Wave Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. I'm sorry, I'm just confused why you'd say that. Thanks dee-em

I think you're confusing me with someone else. :-)

Remember, we talked about it in Gentorev's post Why? and I mistakenly wrote Pilot Wave Duality

http://www.debate.org...

And afterwards I created a post called the Atheists Paradox based on our conversation, and that was basically all about free will. I didn't talk to you a lot there, but I assumed you read it since you felt compelled to commend my "professional agitator" skills.

Its okay if you dont remember. I've been discussing Pilot Wave Interpretation on my Negative Numbers forum. I believe in Determinism and Cause and Effect, so maybe we can have a fun conversation about that, if you're interested. Thank you.
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
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7/1/2015 6:42:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 6:35:54 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 5:42:52 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:56:46 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:32:51 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:18:08 AM, Cryo wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Stands up, grabs the mic and clears throat:
It's simple! Free will. You see, the reason there's evil and pain and suffering in the world is because God gave us all free will so that we'd...
*whisper*
What do you mean that doesn't answer the question?
*whisper whisper*
Natural evil? What are you talk...
*whisper whisper whisper*
Oh, well that's easy. It all goes back to free will! You see, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into the world and sin broke the world, that's why...
*whisper whisper*
Well of course it's not fair for people to be punished for someone else's decisions but...
*whisper whisper*
No, that's different...
*whisper whisper whisper*
No, God can't intervene because that would violate our free wil!
*whisper whisper*
Alright, I suppose curing cancer or eradicating viruses wouldn't violate our free will at all, but God has a plan and...
*whisper whisper whisper*
What do you mean Superman would cure cancer if he could? Superman is not God! God has a plan and how arrogant are you to think you could do better? Superman's not even real!
*whisper snicker*
Oh... you atheists think you're sooo clever with your logic and your jokes. Why can't you heathens just leave us Christians alone? Stop persecuting me!

+1

I'm still smiling. Watch annonymouswho regurgitate some variation of the above.

I don't believe in free will, so why would I repeat what Cryo said? I've spent countless hours talking to you about this. Do you still think that I believe in free will after all the conversations we've had about Determinism, Cause and Effect, Newtonian Mechanics, and Pilot-Wave Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. I'm sorry, I'm just confused why you'd say that. Thanks dee-em

I think you're confusing me with someone else. :-)

Remember, we talked about it in Gentorev's post Why? and I mistakenly wrote Pilot Wave Duality

http://www.debate.org...

The only thing I discussed at length with you was cause and effect. You tried to raise the others and I told you they were off-topic. If we discussed free will, I can't remember it.

And afterwards I created a post called the Atheists Paradox based on our conversation, and that was basically all about free will. I didn't talk to you a lot there, but I assumed you read it since you felt compelled to commend my "professional agitator" skills.

Skimmed more than read.

Its okay if you dont remember. I've been discussing Pilot Wave Interpretation on my Negative Numbers forum. I believe in Determinism and Cause and Effect, so maybe we can have a fun conversation about that, if you're interested. Thank you.

I don't find discussions with you particularly productive, so I'll pass. :-)
Martley
Posts: 126
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7/1/2015 9:11:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 3:15:46 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:43:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Hello my friend. Before I discuss this with you, would you care to answer a few questions?

Do you believe in any sort of God?
I could believe in a non-dual god. A god that does not possess opposing chacteristics, eg, love and fear, forgiveness and wrath, giving and taking, war and peace, time and eternity ...and so on.
A god that is wholly consistent
Do you believe in free will?
yes. as it applies to everyone including god
Do you believe if God does exist, He must be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?
yes
Thank you.
I have a few questions of my own follwed by a scenario:
Parents also give their childen "free will".
A) What would you say of a parent that places their young child in a room with a basket full of razors and tells the child not to play with the basket?

B) What if the parent intervenes to prevent the child from injuring them self, would this be in violation of the childs free will? Don't parents also have free will and keep their children from harm when neccesary?

C)) Why would a "loving god" place its creations in a similar scenario given the idea that it's omniscient?

Isn't this an example of free choice... not free will?? What if the kids will was to go to the playground and poo themselves by the horsey spring... but their parents decided to put them in a room with razors gathered in a basket (oddly enough)? In your example... aren't the child's choices confined by the decision the parents already made... and likewise the parents choices confined by the situation at hand. In your example the childs will was never free... but they do have the freedom to choose to play with razors. Is that the only thing in the room?? Is there a basket full of fluffy kitties too??? Do we only live in world of baskets of razors??? Are we conditioned to only see dualistic incapability... or is a whole made up of different parts? In every fight is the there a villain and hero... or can two asshats get in a fight. Is there good and evil... or just our opinions. We think the young muslim is a terrorist and out to kill us... They think an Iowa farm boy is an imperialist and out to kill them... and we have kill far more of them, than they of us...
A Black Belt is a white belt who never quit.

The best time to do something was 20 years ago.... the second best to do something is now.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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7/1/2015 9:19:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 2:56:46 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:32:51 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:18:08 AM, Cryo wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Stands up, grabs the mic and clears throat:
It's simple! Free will. You see, the reason there's evil and pain and suffering in the world is because God gave us all free will so that we'd...
*whisper*
What do you mean that doesn't answer the question?
*whisper whisper*
Natural evil? What are you talk...
*whisper whisper whisper*
Oh, well that's easy. It all goes back to free will! You see, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into the world and sin broke the world, that's why...
*whisper whisper*
Well of course it's not fair for people to be punished for someone else's decisions but...
*whisper whisper*
No, that's different...
*whisper whisper whisper*
No, God can't intervene because that would violate our free wil!
*whisper whisper*
Alright, I suppose curing cancer or eradicating viruses wouldn't violate our free will at all, but God has a plan and...
*whisper whisper whisper*
What do you mean Superman would cure cancer if he could? Superman is not God! God has a plan and how arrogant are you to think you could do better? Superman's not even real!
*whisper snicker*
Oh... you atheists think you're sooo clever with your logic and your jokes. Why can't you heathens just leave us Christians alone? Stop persecuting me!

+1

I'm still smiling. Watch annonymouswho regurgitate some variation of the above.

I don't believe in free will, so why would I repeat what Cryo said? I've spent countless hours talking to you about this. Do you still think that I believe in free will after all the conversations we've had about Determinism, Cause and Effect, Newtonian Mechanics, and Pilot-Wave Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. I'm sorry, I'm just confused why you'd say that. Thanks dee-em

All of your beliefs surrounding those concepts have been refuted, they are not valid in any way and you simply choose to ignore them all and carried on with your beliefs.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/1/2015 9:45:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 6:21:47 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2015 5:16:38 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 3:15:46 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:43:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Hello my friend. Before I discuss this with you, would you care to answer a few questions?

Do you believe in any sort of God?
I could believe in a non-dual god. A god that does not possess opposing chacteristics, eg, love and fear, forgiveness and wrath, giving and taking, war and peace, time and eternity ...and so on.
A god that is wholly consistent

Great! I agree that God must be consistent and He must be One.

He Must have One Purpose and be powerful enough to accomplish it.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is NONE ELSE; I am God, and there is NONE LIKE ME,
Declaring the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:9

Because He created us without our consent, then it is reasonable to believe that He Loves us all:

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." 1 John 4:15

Because He Loves us all, and because He IS Love, then it is reasonable to assume that He is all forgiving:

"Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth NOT his anger for ever, because he DELIGHTETH IN MERCY." Micah 7:18

Because He is all forgiving, then it is reasonable to assume that His forgiveness is not necessarily something we attain through anything we do, but rather it is freely given to us because of His Love:

"For BY GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8

Do you believe in free will?

yes. as it applies to everyone including god

Do you believe if God does exist, He must be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?
yes

If God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, then is it still consistent to say that we have a "free" will? If God is all powerful, can we thwart His will? If God is past, present, and future, does this mean God has already seen all that has and will happen? If God has already Determined and Completed His Work, and He knows all things, is it possible that we can make any independent choice other than what He has Determined? I deny free will for several reasons.

1) It is inconsistent with the Omni attributes of God

2) The Scriptures know of no such thing. Rather, they tell us

"For it is God which WORKETH in you both to WILL and to DO of his good PLEASURE." Philippians 2:13

3) It defies the Laws of Physics. An Effect cannot precede it's Cause, and all things are Caused by the prior Effect. God is the Great Cause of all things.

4) I despise contradictions

Thank you.
I have a few questions of my own follwed by a scenario:
Parents also give their childen "free will".
A) What would you say of a parent that places their young child in a room with a basket full of razors and tells the child not to play with the basket?

B) What if the parent intervenes to prevent the child from injuring them self, would this be in violation of the childs free will? Don't parents also have free will and keep their children from harm when neccesary?

C)) Why would a "loving god" place its creations in a similar scenario given the idea that it's omniscient?

Again, I don't believe in free will, so I can't really answer these questions. What I can attempt to do is explain why God has created Evil and subjected us to. But first I would like to know if you feel I've been consistent so far. I'd also like to know if the preservation of free will is essential in order for you to accept a proposition; or if you'd be willing to deny free will if reasonable evidence was provided.

Thank you my friend. I hope to hear from you soon.

How does not believing in free will prevent you from answering my questions? Is it impossible for you to step outside of your belief system if only for just a moment and contribute to this discussion in a meaningful way?
It's your turn to answer questions my friend.

I'm sorry, but the reason I can't answer your questions is because the whole basis of the questions were to reconcile free will with the Problem of Evil. Unless you're talking about the OP question of why the Loving God would put His creation in a position of Evil and Hostility. I'd be glad to answer that question, but the above questions about free will wouldn't make any sense because I'd be arguing for something I can't logically comprehend. Well, I guess I could try to answer them.

A) I'd say that parent is a fool, because they have put their children in a position where they can possibly kill themselves, and the parents do not have the capability to bring their children back. If the parents tell them not to play with the razors, then they are asking for trouble. Everyone knows when you tell a child not to do something, their going to do it. I assume you're talking about the Garden of Eden. I'll explain this tonight because it has to do with your original questions and it'll take me a while to write it all out.

B) Yes, that would be a violation of the child's free will. Actually, when we were all kids there is no way we had a free will, because we only did and knew what our parents told us. And our grandparents our parents into who they are today. So no, the parents also don't have free will.

C) I don't believe the Creator has put us in a similar situation. I believe there is an added word in our English translations that make the Garden situation make absolutely no sense. Adam and Eve did not thwart the Will of God because of some Prometheus-like fallen angel character named Lucifer. God knew everything that would happen, and it happened exactly as He wanted it to. Remember, when parents tell their kids not to do something, they're usually going to do it. Same concept, except God left us in a room with something far greater than razor blades. He gave us the Knowledge of Good and Evil so that we can be in His Image.

Well, I'm sorry. I have to go to bed now. I will address your original post tonight. Thank you my friend and God bless you.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/1/2015 10:13:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 9:19:25 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:56:46 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:32:51 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:18:08 AM, Cryo wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Stands up, grabs the mic and clears throat:
It's simple! Free will. You see, the reason there's evil and pain and suffering in the world is because God gave us all free will so that we'd...
*whisper*
What do you mean that doesn't answer the question?
*whisper whisper*
Natural evil? What are you talk...
*whisper whisper whisper*
Oh, well that's easy. It all goes back to free will! You see, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into the world and sin broke the world, that's why...
*whisper whisper*
Well of course it's not fair for people to be punished for someone else's decisions but...
*whisper whisper*
No, that's different...
*whisper whisper whisper*
No, God can't intervene because that would violate our free wil!
*whisper whisper*
Alright, I suppose curing cancer or eradicating viruses wouldn't violate our free will at all, but God has a plan and...
*whisper whisper whisper*
What do you mean Superman would cure cancer if he could? Superman is not God! God has a plan and how arrogant are you to think you could do better? Superman's not even real!
*whisper snicker*
Oh... you atheists think you're sooo clever with your logic and your jokes. Why can't you heathens just leave us Christians alone? Stop persecuting me!

+1

I'm still smiling. Watch annonymouswho regurgitate some variation of the above.

I don't believe in free will, so why would I repeat what Cryo said? I've spent countless hours talking to you about this. Do you still think that I believe in free will after all the conversations we've had about Determinism, Cause and Effect, Newtonian Mechanics, and Pilot-Wave Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. I'm sorry, I'm just confused why you'd say that. Thanks dee-em

All of your beliefs surrounding those concepts have been refuted, they are not valid in any way and you simply choose to ignore them all and carried on with your beliefs.

You've refuted Pilot Wave Interpretation?

I have failed to see anything that would be considered a refutation of Pilot Waves. In fact, after Bohm reevaluated De Broglie's theory, the Physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer said "If we can not refute Bohm, we must agree to ignore him." You cannot refute it because it is completely valid in every aspect of Quantum Mechanics.

You refuted Cause and Effect?

Place a cue ball on a level billiards table and stare at it until it randomly starts moving, without any Cause whatsoever. When you get tired of staring at something that will never happen, go ahead and play a game of pool. Surely some balls will just fall into the pockets for no reason, and no matter where you hit the ball, there should be a 50/50 chance it will land in the side pocket. Actually, don't worry about hitting the ball; give it a few billion years and it will fluctuate into a new Universe.

Sorry my friend. You have not refuted anything. You have an alternative interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, but that interpretation involves zombie cats and gives me a fear that at any moment, a Black Hole might spontaneously appear in my car and send me to one of those Multiverses in Imaginary Time. I can see why the idea of zombie cats might be appealing to the Twilight kids, but I like to believe we live in a real, physical Universe that is governed by fundamental Laws. Plus I hate contradictions, like a cat that is alive and dead at the same time. That's dumb.

Thank you my friend.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/1/2015 10:17:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 5:26:53 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 7/1/2015 5:16:38 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 3:15:46 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:43:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Hello my friend. Before I discuss this with you, would you care to answer a few questions?

Do you believe in any sort of God?
I could believe in a non-dual god. A god that does not possess opposing chacteristics, eg, love and fear, forgiveness and wrath, giving and taking, war and peace, time and eternity ...and so on.
A god that is wholly consistent

Great! I agree that God must be consistent and He must be One.

He Must have One Purpose and be powerful enough to accomplish it.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is NONE ELSE; I am God, and there is NONE LIKE ME,
Declaring the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:9

Because He created us without our consent, then it is reasonable to believe that He Loves us all:

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." 1 John 4:15

Because He Loves us all, and because He IS Love, then it is reasonable to assume that He is all forgiving:

"Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth NOT his anger for ever, because he DELIGHTETH IN MERCY." Micah 7:18

Because He is all forgiving, then it is reasonable to assume that His forgiveness is not necessarily something we attain through anything we do, but rather it is freely given to us because of His Love:

"For BY GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8

Do you believe in free will?

yes. as it applies to everyone including god

Do you believe if God does exist, He must be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?
yes

If God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, then is it still consistent to say that we have a "free" will? If God is all powerful, can we thwart His will? If God is past, present, and future, does this mean God has already seen all that has and will happen? If God has already Determined and Completed His Work, and He knows all things, is it possible that we can make any independent choice other than what He has Determined? I deny free will for several reasons.

1) It is inconsistent with the Omni attributes of God

2) The Scriptures know of no such thing. Rather, they tell us

"For it is God which WORKETH in you both to WILL and to DO of his good PLEASURE." Philippians 2:13

3) It defies the Laws of Physics. An Effect cannot precede it's Cause, and all things are Caused by the prior Effect. God is the Great Cause of all things.

4) I despise contradictions

Thank you.
I have a few questions of my own follwed by a scenario:
Parents also give their childen "free will".
A) What would you say of a parent that places their young child in a room with a basket full of razors and tells the child not to play with the basket?

B) What if the parent intervenes to prevent the child from injuring them self, would this be in violation of the childs free will? Don't parents also have free will and keep their children from harm when neccesary?

C)) Why would a "loving god" place its creations in a similar scenario given the idea that it's omniscient?

Again, I don't believe in free will, so I can't really answer these questions. What I can attempt to do is explain why God has created Evil and subjected us to. But first I would like to know if you feel I've been consistent so far. I'd also like to know if the preservation of free will is essential in order for you to accept a proposition; or if you'd be willing to deny free will if reasonable evidence was provided.

Thank you my friend. I hope to hear from you soon.

Now that really would take some explaining. The most logical answer is that the evil deity enjoys seeing its human pawns suffer!

Hey JJ50, I'm sorry but that is not the most logical answer. The Creator of this beautiful Universe and the One who gave us Love, Knowledge, and Life does not enjoy watching us suffer. I will explain this to ATHOS, so please stick around. Thank you my friend.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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7/1/2015 10:31:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 10:13:42 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 9:19:25 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:56:46 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:32:51 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:18:08 AM, Cryo wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Stands up, grabs the mic and clears throat:
It's simple! Free will. You see, the reason there's evil and pain and suffering in the world is because God gave us all free will so that we'd...
*whisper*
What do you mean that doesn't answer the question?
*whisper whisper*
Natural evil? What are you talk...
*whisper whisper whisper*
Oh, well that's easy. It all goes back to free will! You see, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into the world and sin broke the world, that's why...
*whisper whisper*
Well of course it's not fair for people to be punished for someone else's decisions but...
*whisper whisper*
No, that's different...
*whisper whisper whisper*
No, God can't intervene because that would violate our free wil!
*whisper whisper*
Alright, I suppose curing cancer or eradicating viruses wouldn't violate our free will at all, but God has a plan and...
*whisper whisper whisper*
What do you mean Superman would cure cancer if he could? Superman is not God! God has a plan and how arrogant are you to think you could do better? Superman's not even real!
*whisper snicker*
Oh... you atheists think you're sooo clever with your logic and your jokes. Why can't you heathens just leave us Christians alone? Stop persecuting me!

+1

I'm still smiling. Watch annonymouswho regurgitate some variation of the above.

I don't believe in free will, so why would I repeat what Cryo said? I've spent countless hours talking to you about this. Do you still think that I believe in free will after all the conversations we've had about Determinism, Cause and Effect, Newtonian Mechanics, and Pilot-Wave Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. I'm sorry, I'm just confused why you'd say that. Thanks dee-em

All of your beliefs surrounding those concepts have been refuted, they are not valid in any way and you simply choose to ignore them all and carried on with your beliefs.

You've refuted Pilot Wave Interpretation?

No, your beliefs have been refuted, that interpretation has been shown to not be useful as it does not explain locality. This has been explained to you many times, but you simply ignore it, most likely because you simply have no understanding of it.

I have failed to see anything that would be considered a refutation of Pilot Waves. In fact, after Bohm reevaluated De Broglie's theory, the Physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer said "If we can not refute Bohm, we must agree to ignore him." You cannot refute it because it is completely valid in every aspect of Quantum Mechanics.

You refuted Cause and Effect?

No, your beliefs have been refuted.

Place a cue ball on a level billiards table and stare at it until it randomly starts moving, without any Cause whatsoever. When you get tired of staring at something that will never happen, go ahead and play a game of pool. Surely some balls will just fall into the pockets for no reason, and no matter where you hit the ball, there should be a 50/50 chance it will land in the side pocket. Actually, don't worry about hitting the ball; give it a few billion years and it will fluctuate into a new Universe.

Like I said, you have no clue what you're talking about, it's all nonsensical gibberish.

Sorry my friend. You have not refuted anything.

Yes, I understand you have chosen to ignore the refutations because you have no clue what you're talking about.

You have an alternative interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, but that interpretation involves zombie cats and gives me a fear that at any moment, a Black Hole might spontaneously appear in my car and send me to one of those Multiverses in Imaginary Time.

Exactly, you have no friggin clue, thanks for confirming that once again.

I can see why the idea of zombie cats might be appealing to the Twilight kids, but I like to believe we live in a real, physical Universe that is governed by fundamental Laws.

You have no clue what science says about anything, you make that evidence time and again.

Plus I hate contradictions, like a cat that is alive and dead at the same time. That's dumb.

That's because you have no friggin clue what Schrodinger's cat explains. Your opinions are severely misinformed.

Thank you my friend.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/1/2015 11:31:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 9:11:58 AM, Martley wrote:
At 7/1/2015 3:15:46 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:43:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Hello my friend. Before I discuss this with you, would you care to answer a few questions?

Do you believe in any sort of God?
I could believe in a non-dual god. A god that does not possess opposing chacteristics, eg, love and fear, forgiveness and wrath, giving and taking, war and peace, time and eternity ...and so on.
A god that is wholly consistent
Do you believe in free will?
yes. as it applies to everyone including god
Do you believe if God does exist, He must be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?
yes
Thank you.
I have a few questions of my own follwed by a scenario:
Parents also give their childen "free will".
A) What would you say of a parent that places their young child in a room with a basket full of razors and tells the child not to play with the basket?

B) What if the parent intervenes to prevent the child from injuring them self, would this be in violation of the childs free will? Don't parents also have free will and keep their children from harm when neccesary?

C)) Why would a "loving god" place its creations in a similar scenario given the idea that it's omniscient?

Isn't this an example of free choice... not free will?? What if the kids will was to go to the playground and poo themselves by the horsey spring... but their parents decided to put them in a room with razors gathered in a basket (oddly enough)? In your example... aren't the child's choices confined by the decision the parents already made... and likewise the parents choices confined by the situation at hand. In your example the childs will was never free... but they do have the freedom to choose to play with razors. Is that the only thing in the room?? Is there a basket full of fluffy kitties too??? Do we only live in world of baskets of razors??? Are we conditioned to only see dualistic incapability... or is a whole made up of different parts? In every fight is the there a villain and hero... or can two asshats get in a fight. Is there good and evil... or just our opinions. We think the young muslim is a terrorist and out to kill us... They think an Iowa farm boy is an imperialist and out to kill them... and we have kill far more of them, than they of us...
My example was an analogy of the garden of eden story. I forgot to mention the other baskets the ones with fruit, nuts, vegetables and other treats , but the basket of razors would still be there. With these other 'safe choices' added along with the basket of razors, would your opinion of the parents be raised?
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
kevin24018
Posts: 1,878
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7/1/2015 2:23:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
first you must make some assumptions
1. there is a God
2. the description of heaven/the after life is accurate

Now you need to put everything into context.

As a parent my children have injured themselves, whether it was falling on their butt when learning to walk or a sliver under the skin. While extremely traumatic to them I knew they would be ok and it was no big deal.
With that in mind, if the next life holds so much happiness and bliss no matter what pain happens in this life is only a sliver compared to what is next. Which would explain why there's no real need for God to cure disease etc.
As the old saying goes, should we mourn when someone is born into this world and rejoice when they leave it?
Cryo
Posts: 202
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7/1/2015 3:14:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 2:23:24 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
first you must make some assumptions
1. there is a God
2. the description of heaven/the after life is accurate

Now you need to put everything into context.

As a parent my children have injured themselves, whether it was falling on their butt when learning to walk or a sliver under the skin. While extremely traumatic to them I knew they would be ok and it was no big deal.
With that in mind, if the next life holds so much happiness and bliss no matter what pain happens in this life is only a sliver compared to what is next. Which would explain why there's no real need for God to cure disease etc.
As the old saying goes, should we mourn when someone is born into this world and rejoice when they leave it?

The problem with this analogy is that it assumes a fair system. If we all suffered a little pain, relatively speaking, before experiencing eternal paradise, some might say that was a fair enough trade. You could possibly chalk up all the struggles of life on earth as growing pains, as we prepare for the next life, which is how many Christians view things.

Except that's not the system laid out in the Bible. In the Bible, not everyone goes to heaven, and the rules on who gets in have some very explicit requirements. For instance, you have to believe in God and Jesus, for one. That's just the basics of the basics.

So within this system, you could have someone, a good person, who happens to be a non-Christian, lose a slow, painful battle with cancer. They have now experienced pain that was not a result of anyone else's decisions, that had nothing to do with free will, and on top of that now they will go to Hell because they did not believe.

The fact that any sort of suffering - not directly tied to free will - exists at all is a problem, but the fact that these variables could, in effect, interfere with our free will by killing us and removing our ability to choose anything, is an even bigger problem.

What if, at some point later in life had they not gotten cancer, they would have converted to Christianity and been saved? Well, now they'll never get that chance. This raises a more serious question: Was it God's plan all along for this person to be born, die from cancer and then go to Hell? Or did he want this person to come to heaven, but since they died before they accepted Christ, he'll have to send them to hell anyway?
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/1/2015 3:19:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Do ya want the real reason for the State of the World?

Or the knee-jerk Christian version?

Let me know. I am well-versed in both.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Cryo
Posts: 202
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7/1/2015 3:35:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 3:19:39 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Do ya want the real reason for the State of the World?

Or the knee-jerk Christian version?

Let me know. I am well-versed in both.

I don't know about him but I'd be interested in hearing the real reason.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/1/2015 3:36:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 3:35:22 PM, Cryo wrote:
At 7/1/2015 3:19:39 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Do ya want the real reason for the State of the World?

Or the knee-jerk Christian version?

Let me know. I am well-versed in both.

I don't know about him but I'd be interested in hearing the real reason.

Obviously that there is no such thing as god. That it is Satan's World.

Or...if there IS a god, Satan has still wrested control of the World from him. As He is more powerful.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,878
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7/1/2015 9:10:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 3:14:48 PM, Cryo wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:23:24 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
first you must make some assumptions
1. there is a God
2. the description of heaven/the after life is accurate

Now you need to put everything into context.

As a parent my children have injured themselves, whether it was falling on their butt when learning to walk or a sliver under the skin. While extremely traumatic to them I knew they would be ok and it was no big deal.
With that in mind, if the next life holds so much happiness and bliss no matter what pain happens in this life is only a sliver compared to what is next. Which would explain why there's no real need for God to cure disease etc.
As the old saying goes, should we mourn when someone is born into this world and rejoice when they leave it?

The problem with this analogy is that it assumes a fair system. If we all suffered a little pain, relatively speaking, before experiencing eternal paradise, some might say that was a fair enough trade. You could possibly chalk up all the struggles of life on earth as growing pains, as we prepare for the next life, which is how many Christians view things.

Except that's not the system laid out in the Bible. In the Bible, not everyone goes to heaven, and the rules on who gets in have some very explicit requirements. For instance, you have to believe in God and Jesus, for one. That's just the basics of the basics.

So within this system, you could have someone, a good person, who happens to be a non-Christian, lose a slow, painful battle with cancer. They have now experienced pain that was not a result of anyone else's decisions, that had nothing to do with free will, and on top of that now they will go to Hell because they did not believe.

The fact that any sort of suffering - not directly tied to free will - exists at all is a problem, but the fact that these variables could, in effect, interfere with our free will by killing us and removing our ability to choose anything, is an even bigger problem.

What if, at some point later in life had they not gotten cancer, they would have converted to Christianity and been saved? Well, now they'll never get that chance. This raises a more serious question: Was it God's plan all along for this person to be born, die from cancer and then go to Hell? Or did he want this person to come to heaven, but since they died before they accepted Christ, he'll have to send them to hell anyway?

you are assuming a Christian God and the Christian bible, neither of which I mentioned. The belief of God and heaven are not exclusive to the Christian faith and the many variations there of.
Cryo
Posts: 202
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7/1/2015 9:16:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 9:10:45 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 7/1/2015 3:14:48 PM, Cryo wrote:
At 7/1/2015 2:23:24 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
first you must make some assumptions
1. there is a God
2. the description of heaven/the after life is accurate

Now you need to put everything into context.

As a parent my children have injured themselves, whether it was falling on their butt when learning to walk or a sliver under the skin. While extremely traumatic to them I knew they would be ok and it was no big deal.
With that in mind, if the next life holds so much happiness and bliss no matter what pain happens in this life is only a sliver compared to what is next. Which would explain why there's no real need for God to cure disease etc.
As the old saying goes, should we mourn when someone is born into this world and rejoice when they leave it?

The problem with this analogy is that it assumes a fair system. If we all suffered a little pain, relatively speaking, before experiencing eternal paradise, some might say that was a fair enough trade. You could possibly chalk up all the struggles of life on earth as growing pains, as we prepare for the next life, which is how many Christians view things.

Except that's not the system laid out in the Bible. In the Bible, not everyone goes to heaven, and the rules on who gets in have some very explicit requirements. For instance, you have to believe in God and Jesus, for one. That's just the basics of the basics.

So within this system, you could have someone, a good person, who happens to be a non-Christian, lose a slow, painful battle with cancer. They have now experienced pain that was not a result of anyone else's decisions, that had nothing to do with free will, and on top of that now they will go to Hell because they did not believe.

The fact that any sort of suffering - not directly tied to free will - exists at all is a problem, but the fact that these variables could, in effect, interfere with our free will by killing us and removing our ability to choose anything, is an even bigger problem.

What if, at some point later in life had they not gotten cancer, they would have converted to Christianity and been saved? Well, now they'll never get that chance. This raises a more serious question: Was it God's plan all along for this person to be born, die from cancer and then go to Hell? Or did he want this person to come to heaven, but since they died before they accepted Christ, he'll have to send them to hell anyway?


you are assuming a Christian God and the Christian bible, neither of which I mentioned. The belief of God and heaven are not exclusive to the Christian faith and the many variations there of.

Ah, my mistake.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/2/2015 12:08:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 11:31:24 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2015 9:11:58 AM, Martley wrote:
At 7/1/2015 3:15:46 AM, ATHOS wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:43:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

I would like to try and explain the Garden of Eden. I'm not trying to prove that it actually occurred, I'm just asking that you think about what it's actually saying. The standard interpretation makes absolutely no sense, so I hope to present to you a coherent and consistent account of God's purpose for mankind.

"And God said, Let us MAKE man in our image, after our LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God CREATED man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:26

Right on the very first page of our Bibles, we are told the whole purpose for God creating mankind. He is making us in His Image. The creation process was a one time event, but the making process is still being implemented today. Remember that God is making us in His "likeness", which means He is making us to be like Him.

"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Genesis 2:9

Here, we see that it was God Himself who planted the Tree of Knowledge, and He planted it right in the middle of the Garden.

Now this is where the confusion comes in:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou SHALT not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:16

First, the end of this verse does not say "thou shalt surely die". The KJV translators give us a footnote that says "Heb. dying thou shalt die" so this does not say that Adam and Eve would die that day.

The main problem with this verse is the phrase "shalt not eat of it". The original Hebrew does not have the word "shalt" there. It literally says:

"Of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil EAT NOT OF"

This was not a rule that God commanded them to obey. This was a warning. God said that they may eat of every tree, but don't eat of the tree of knowledge, "for in the day that thou eatest", then dying they shall die. You see, God told them not to eat from the Tree, but then He tells them that there will be a day that they do eat from it (remember, every parent knows when you tell your kids not to do something, they're gonna do it). He knew all along that they would, and next He brings about the conditions that Cause them to eat the Fruit.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had MADE. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall NOT eat of every tree of the garden?" Genesis 3:1

Now the Serpent enters. We are told by Fundamental Christianity that this Serpent is some fallen angel named Lucifer, whom God made perfect but fell from heaven and gave forbidden knowledge to mankind. But the Scriptures tell us something very different. The Serpent was more subtil than any beast that God had "made". It was God who made the Serpent subtil, and it was God who put him in the Garden to deceive Eve.

Remember, God told Adam that he may freely eat of every fruit in the Garden, so here we see the Serpent's first lie was the first words he ever spoke. God didn't say they may "not" eat of every tree. He said they may eat of every tree. This confuses Eve:

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye [shall] not eat of it, neither [shall] ye touch it, lest ye die." Genesis 3:2

Eve confirms what God had told them, that they may freely eat of every tree. And then she repeats God's warning. So the Serpent lies again:

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be AS gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4

Adam and Eve did eventually die, just as God said they would. However, the Serpent did throw in a little truth, which God confirms. What happened after Adam and Eve ate the fruit?

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become AS one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

You see, God said He was making us in His Image, in His Likeness, and this required us to have the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Once we acquired this Knowledge, God confirms that everything is going exactly as He planned it.

Now we have the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but we lack the Wisdom and Prudence to choose only Good. This is why there is Evil in the world.

"And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith." Ecclesiastes 1:13

This verse alone explains the Problem of Evil, however, translators have butchered this verse so much that the original meaning is indistinguishable. The word translated "sore" is the Hebrew "rah", and rah means Evil (as in the Knowledge of Good and Evil (rah). The word translated "exercised" is the Hebrew "anah" and it means "to bring low, to humble". This verse literally says

"This evil experience has God given to the sons of man to be humbled therewith"

The experience of Evil teaches us what is right from wrong. When we experience Evil, we recognize what it is, and this gives us Prudence to choose Good. Yeshua was the only Man that has ever fulfilled this perfect Image of God, and God raised Him from the dead to confirm to us that we will all be raised.

If this is consistent and if it makes sense to you, I'd love to share the True Gospel with you. Gospel means Good News, and there is no better News than what God has done for ALL of us.

Thank you my friend and God bless you.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/2/2015 12:11:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 3:36:59 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/1/2015 3:35:22 PM, Cryo wrote:
At 7/1/2015 3:19:39 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Do ya want the real reason for the State of the World?

Or the knee-jerk Christian version?

Let me know. I am well-versed in both.

I don't know about him but I'd be interested in hearing the real reason.


Obviously that there is no such thing as god. That it is Satan's World.

Or...if there IS a god, Satan has still wrested control of the World from him. As He is more powerful.

Hey Saint_of_Me, would you care to read what I just wrote to ATHOS and then explain how Satan has control of anything? Thank you.
ATHOS
Posts: 123
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7/2/2015 4:17:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 12:43:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 6/30/2015 11:16:35 PM, ATHOS wrote:
We are born into a hostile world. A world that requires constant defense. From the macroscopic all the way down to the microscopic. From terrorists that wish to kill us, drunk drivers on our public roads, serial killers, weather..ect,to harmful bacteria, viruses and cancer. How could a loving God ever put its creations in such a position?

Hello my friend. Before I discuss this with you, would you care to answer a few questions?

Do you believe in any sort of God?

Do you believe in free will?

Do you believe if God does exist, He must be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient?

Thank you.

You aree with my answer in your first question, do I belive in any sort of god.

"Great! I agree that God must be consistent and He must be One."
And then you quote from the bible. The god that is expressed in the bible is clearly one of duality. The content of this god has characteristics that are diametrically opposed, It is both loving and fearful, forgiving and wrathful, (depending on what mood it's in) he giveth and taketh away, A god of both war and peace. This not consistent with non-duality.
Furthermore, A god that has kwowledge of "good and evil" must be one filled with conflict.
People probably thought that they made a giant leap with their religion when they went from polytheism to monotheism. When all they really did was take all the content from their many gods with all the opossing characteristis, and rolled it into one god. So now instead of having a bunch of messed up gods, they had just one messed up god. The form may have changed, but the content is the same, a god to be both loved and feared.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?