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joetheripper117
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7/1/2015 8:15:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument aganist the existence of God?

As a former Catholic, the argument that finally convinced me to adopt my current stance was the fact that there simply is no evidence in favor of a god. Since there is no evidence to fulfill the burden of proof for the claim "a god exists", the most natural thing to do is to cast away the notion, in the same way that I imagine you cast away the notion of unicorns.
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/1/2015 8:41:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument against the existence of God?

The 'existence of God' isn't one question, but two, Uther:

1) What is the strength of evidence that there are metaphysical agencies interested in and interacting with humanity?

2) What is the strength of evidence that any theology on earth has ever managed to demonstrate having interacted with and forming an accountable understanding of such a being?

Here are my answers:

1) There is no credible, independently-confirmable evidence of metaphysical beings interested in and interacting with humanity;

2) Not only can no theology on earth supply no evidence of its claims of interacting with and understanding such beings, theology itself represents an intellectually bankrupt endeavour built on ignorance, deceit and evasion, supporting unaccountable claims to authority used to support the financial and political advantage of its elites.

So this is an argument for being:
* agnostic on the existence of metaphysical beings;
* gnostic and rejecting the proposition of them being interested in and interacting with humans; and
* gnostic and opposed to any theological claim to authority about anything.

I hope that may be useful.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,267
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7/1/2015 9:35:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument aganist the existence of God?

I personally feel Atheism is changing. Or, at least ... i know that they are more open minded to change. If you think about it, Atheism came to be in its stance against religion. By definition, it is just a stance that there is no god/gods. But, how can you really be 100% that there is no god(s)? We are still in our infancy when it comes to knowledge like that. However, i can confidently say that no one religion is right. It is very obvious scripture was written by men. Now, i wouldn't say all scripture is influenced by "evil" (harmful or predatory people), but it is clear people with "darker" desires have used and twisted religion to also fit their agenda.

Religion was made 2000 years ago by humans. Now, i give credit where it is due. Some of these men/women did have spiritual intelligence. They created religion bc of who they are. If you look around today, there are tons of people with this kind of spiritual intelligence. But, back then ... not only would they have spiritual intelligence, they would also have to know how to wright and be influential. So, out of the thousands of people with this sort of intelligence ... a few met the right people to help "market" their ideas. Now, why do their ideas stick ... well, if you look at it with an open mind, you will see that these faiths were perfect for that time. The ultimatums and "hell" scared off opponents and brought more people; making a strong society. Also, think about this ... if you heard a poem that during a moment you had a bad time, and this poem's words spelled out your situation perfectly; you would like the poem and even get maybe a rush from hearing it. This is the same with religion.

With religion, people already had these morals and beliefs within them. Imagine going into a sociology class and listening to the teacher talk about classical conditioning. This is the idea of how people were i think in the 20's or 40's (i forget, sorry if i'm wrong). Anyways, let's say you already figured out by yourself, "wow, look at how people acted in the 40's." And, further you would have opinions and critiques once you observed it yourself. So, now ... the teacher tells you about what you already know. The teacher will tell you it is called "classical Con." and tell you about opinions. If the teacher says everything exactly how you already analysed it ... you would happy...you will feel good that you thought right by yourself. So, same can be said for religion.

People already had these beliefs and morals before religion. When someone started preaching it, they were taken be the words ... they felt good. So, certain religion that were preached to the right people, in the right time, and did something with it ... caught on. So, to me religion is significant even though i know people wrote it ... if you think of my examples with an open mind, you will see how all of it is pure human behavior ... but, one thing sticks out to me ... spirituality.

I believe in spirituality. I believe we are made perfectly how we are suppose to be. In my spiritual beliefs ... if science is wrong, so is my belief. Back to your question... I think atheism is changing bc we can be open minded now. We can come up with scenarios that may make sense. Yet, at this time ... all evidence shows ... well, i'll stop. There is no evidence in science that can prove the idea of a "god" (a creator) false. However, i think we can easily show from what i have said ... that a religion is man made. An Atheist can show many reasons why a religion is man made, therefore ... just speculation. There gods can be shown to be false or at least all of their out-dated morals and values that their "god" wants us to do. I mean, would you write a religion and say "maybe i am right" or would you say "I am right and you must follow this" again ... purely human behavior and ego.

It is hard for me to write an opinion about this bc i would identify myself as an agnostic atheist spiritual (Nospirism). I look at this world like a movie or video game. Everything is for a purpose ... yet, we are the ones that give definitions to these things. We are the creators. We can make this world a paradise right now if we could see past our egos. So, to me ... we are all "gods" ... i think i can stay atheist still even i believe this. I'll stop rambling ... refute me if you must ... but i don't think anyone can prove to me that we are not spiritual beings ... that we are not immortal.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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7/1/2015 10:47:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument aganist the existence of God?

No evidence for deistic gods, and lack of evidence (we have good reason to expect) from revealed gods. The claim "God exists" is unsupported, and can be logically dismissed.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Death23
Posts: 781
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7/1/2015 10:54:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument aganist the existence of God?

problem of evil
Surrealism
Posts: 265
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7/2/2015 2:04:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument aganist the existence of God?

Pragmatism.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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7/2/2015 2:10:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Even if a deity does exist somewhere I am of the opinion that none of the deities worshipped by humans are anything but their own creation. The Biblical deity, the one I know most about, seems very human and reflects all the worst of human characteristics, but none of the best!
Sosoconfused
Posts: 237
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7/2/2015 5:58:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument aganist the existence of God?

I will echo what others have stated, the most compelling argument against the existence is the lack of evidence for it's existence. Basically, I don't believe in God for much the same reason I don't believe in Santa, magical beanstalks, unicorns, or dragons.
Impartial
Posts: 375
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7/2/2015 7:51:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument aganist the existence of God?

Entropy.
To believe is to know nothing.
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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7/2/2015 8:22:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument aganist the existence of God?

It is not so much arguments against God's existence, but that there is no good evidence to believe in God. It is human nature to seek stories and invent causes to explain the explainable. It does not surprise me that cultures all over the world have there own superstitions and supernatural beliefs. It gives people peace of mind. It is also human nature to think that our own beliefs are correct, while others are wrong.

However, I believe that if God, really wanted us to believe in him and know about him, he would give mankind conclusive evidence about his existence.

People say that there is evidence for their God. Catholics say there is evidence of the Catholic God, Sunni Muslims say there is evidence of the Sunni God, Hindus say there is evidence of the Hindu God.

But, the bottom line, these are all biased beliefs and there is no conclusive evidence for God. So if God existed, why would he want us to know about him?
Cryo
Posts: 202
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7/5/2015 11:06:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument aganist the existence of God?

I think the fact that there is no evidence in support of the God claim is itself the most compelling argument. The world (and the universe, for that matter) look exactly like what we'd expect them to look like if there was no God and this was all the result of natural processes.

Then the best theists can do is point to what we don't understand, and say, "This could only have been God." Just about every argument for the existence of God that I've ever heard could be boiled down to a God of the gaps claim.
Cryo
Posts: 202
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7/5/2015 11:09:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 10:54:58 PM, Death23 wrote:
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument aganist the existence of God?

problem of evil

I'm a fan of the problem of evil issue as well, but I do have to point out that this is only relevant to the way "God" is being defined. Against a Deistic god, for instance, this question is irrelevant.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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7/6/2015 5:09:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument aganist the existence of God?

Ask yourself what a world would look like without the existence of a God, then look at our world.

Here some things we would expect to be the case if God did not exist........

1) God does not speak for it's self (Notice it always humans doing the talking)

2) Pray to a God or any God has not being shown to be more effective than praying to the sun (People just count the hits as confirmation of their God belief here, ie confirmation bias)

3) The appearance of unnecessary suffering

4) The lack of divine comfort and understanding the the face of appeared divine suffering

5) The ad hoc rationalizations or God believers to get around lack of evidence and evidence that suggests that their is no God.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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7/6/2015 2:25:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
No evidence, factual and testable evidence, of any of his supposed interactions with humankind. The assertion that God, or any deity for that matter, exists is on par with the claims of the existence of fairies, elves, gnomes, and dwarves. We have no problem rejecting the assertions of existence of other supernatural creatures. Why do we as a culture and species cling so fiercely to that single assertion that has exactly as much evidence as the latter?
JMcKinley
Posts: 314
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7/6/2015 3:02:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There are plenty of reasons to disbelieve theist claims. But the one that truly made me think the most when I was a child and first became an atheist was this:

Out of all the hundreds of thousands of different religions and denominations; how do you know that the one you pick is the right one? If every religion claims to have the real truth, how do you know which one is right? Shouldn't one stand out as being significantly more believable, reliable or accurate?

It became apparent to me at a young age that what religion you were depended almost entirely on where you were born and to whom. This meant that it was entirely arbitrary, and that there was nothing special about the church that my family went to. It also meant that when picking a religion you were essentially guessing and hoping that the one you picked was right, because there was no way to know.

Not being able to resolve these issues as a child, I dismissed religion and didn't think much of it again until my early adulthood where I researched my views and refined how I viewed the world.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/6/2015 3:20:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 3:02:59 PM, JMcKinley wrote:
There are plenty of reasons to disbelieve theist claims. But the one that truly made me think the most when I was a child and first became an atheist was this:

Plenty? you better produce more than what you wrote below.

Out of all the hundreds of thousands of different religions and denominations; how do you know that the one you pick is the right one? If every religion claims to have the real truth, how do you know which one is right? Shouldn't one stand out as being significantly more believable, reliable or accurate?

And they do, and to say a few don't is ignorant. It should be simple and logical to see what can fit with reality and what is reasonable and logical. You could eliminate 90% right from the start just based on reason alone, not all of mans ideas are on the mark, some imagination, some lies, some stories, some maniacal, some manipulative, some fantasies but some genuine, honest and real with legit observation.
Give me more than four examples of any religious practice or spiritual beliefs that are more convincing than the Bible.....
You see, if you had knowledge and observation of spiritual things you would see much more clear. Religions are mans interpretation of the spiritual realm and the after life, some bizarre and a few others accurate, in their own way, but the knowledge Jesus had many spiritual people will tell you He is truth.
Christianity is unique in that is applies to us in the present, it is applicable to our life now.

It became apparent to me at a young age that what religion you were depended almost entirely on where you were born and to whom. This meant that it was entirely arbitrary, and that there was nothing special about the church that my family went to. It also meant that when picking a religion you were essentially guessing and hoping that the one you picked was right, because there was no way to know.

More atheist brainwashing, believing that any theistic beliefs are the result of indoctrination and because some ones mommy told them, think for yourself and stop buying into atheist mindsets.
Take a pole on how many atheists are around here that were raised "Christian", then you will see how solid that assertion really is.

What do you feel about the teachings and principles of Jesus?

Not being able to resolve these issues as a child, I dismissed religion and didn't think much of it again until my early adulthood where I researched my views and refined how I viewed the world.

Why would you dismiss what Jesus taught? do you believe He lied?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/6/2015 3:29:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 3:20:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/6/2015 3:02:59 PM, JMcKinley wrote:
There are plenty of reasons to disbelieve theist claims. But the one that truly made me think the most when I was a child and first became an atheist was this:

Plenty? you better produce more than what you wrote below.

Out of all the hundreds of thousands of different religions and denominations; how do you know that the one you pick is the right one? If every religion claims to have the real truth, how do you know which one is right? Shouldn't one stand out as being significantly more believable, reliable or accurate?

And they do, and to say a few don't is ignorant. It should be simple and logical to see what can fit with reality and what is reasonable and logical. You could eliminate 90% right from the start just based on reason alone, not all of mans ideas are on the mark, some imagination, some lies, some stories, some maniacal, some manipulative, some fantasies but some genuine, honest and real with legit observation.
Give me more than four examples of any religious practice or spiritual beliefs that are more convincing than the Bible.....
You see, if you had knowledge and observation of spiritual things you would see much more clear. Religions are mans interpretation of the spiritual realm and the after life, some bizarre and a few others accurate, in their own way, but the knowledge Jesus had many spiritual people will tell you He is truth.
Christianity is unique in that is applies to us in the present, it is applicable to our life now.

It became apparent to me at a young age that what religion you were depended almost entirely on where you were born and to whom. This meant that it was entirely arbitrary, and that there was nothing special about the church that my family went to. It also meant that when picking a religion you were essentially guessing and hoping that the one you picked was right, because there was no way to know.

More atheist brainwashing, believing that any theistic beliefs are the result of indoctrination and because some ones mommy told them, think for yourself and stop buying into atheist mindsets.
Take a pole on how many atheists are around here that were raised "Christian", then you will see how solid that assertion really is.

What do you feel about the teachings and principles of Jesus?

Not being able to resolve these issues as a child, I dismissed religion and didn't think much of it again until my early adulthood where I researched my views and refined how I viewed the world.

Why would you dismiss what Jesus taught? do you believe He lied?

I know this is the atheist thread and I apologize for sounding brash but your post appeared genuine to me so I am genuinely curious, that is all really. I think you should consider some things.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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7/6/2015 3:39:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 3:20:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
You see, if you had knowledge and observation of spiritual things you would see much more clear.

Sorry, but you have no knowledge or observations of spiritual things because you have never defined what "spiritual" means, hence it is just a word you toss around to pretend you have some knowledge, when in fact you don't.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
JMcKinley
Posts: 314
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7/7/2015 7:07:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 3:29:50 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/6/2015 3:20:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/6/2015 3:02:59 PM, JMcKinley wrote:
There are plenty of reasons to disbelieve theist claims. But the one that truly made me think the most when I was a child and first became an atheist was this:

Plenty? you better produce more than what you wrote below.

The topic of the thread was what argument did we find most compelling. For me this argument is the most compelling.


Out of all the hundreds of thousands of different religions and denominations; how do you know that the one you pick is the right one? If every religion claims to have the real truth, how do you know which one is right? Shouldn't one stand out as being significantly more believable, reliable or accurate?

And they do, and to say a few don't is ignorant. It should be simple and logical to see what can fit with reality and what is reasonable and logical. You could eliminate 90% right from the start just based on reason alone, not all of mans ideas are on the mark, some imagination, some lies, some stories, some maniacal, some manipulative, some fantasies but some genuine, honest and real with legit observation.
Give me more than four examples of any religious practice or spiritual beliefs that are more convincing than the Bible.....

There aren't any in my opinion. I find many religions to be equally unbelievable. Christianity is not special. Its just the most popular. Let me ask you. What is unique to Christianity that makes it more believable than other god claims?

And why 4 examples? If I gave you one that was truly and objectively more convincing than the Bible, would you convert?

You see, if you had knowledge and observation of spiritual things you would see much more clear. Religions are mans interpretation of the spiritual realm and the after life, some bizarre and a few others accurate, in their own way, but the knowledge Jesus had many spiritual people will tell you He is truth.
Christianity is unique in that is applies to us in the present, it is applicable to our life now.


That's not really unique at all. Muslims would say the same thing, as would Jews, Buddhists, Hindu's, Pagan's etc. They all make those claims, and they all make similar arguments for them. I find none of them convincing.

It became apparent to me at a young age that what religion you were depended almost entirely on where you were born and to whom. This meant that it was entirely arbitrary, and that there was nothing special about the church that my family went to. It also meant that when picking a religion you were essentially guessing and hoping that the one you picked was right, because there was no way to know.

More atheist brainwashing, believing that any theistic beliefs are the result of indoctrination and because some ones mommy told them, think for yourself and stop buying into atheist mindsets.

How was it brainwashing if I came to these conclusions myself in spite of regularly going to church at the time? Keep in mind that these were the thoughts and ideas of a child/teenager in the mid 90's. I wasn't online, I had no idea what indoctrination or atheism were. All I knew was that I learned religion from my parents and my community. If I had been born somewhere else to different parents I would have been a different religion, and I would have no way to tell which one was true. I did think for myself. These were my own conclusions based on a reasonable examination of the evidence. Out of curiosity, what religion are your parents?

Take a pole on how many atheists are around here that were raised "Christian", then you will see how solid that assertion really is.

Yes, many atheists in North America were once Christians. But that is because most people in North America are Christians. So it follows that most apostates in North America would be Christian. If anything this only helps prove the point of how arbitrary it all is. Atheists in Israel probably used to be Jews. Atheists in Iran are probably Muslim.

What do you feel about the teachings and principles of Jesus?

I feel that they are fiction and should be treated as such. Jesus said and did a fair amount of good. But on the flip-side he is also willing to condemn those who do not believe in him to hell for eternity. For me this is unacceptable and is immoral in the highest degree. I believe I am more moral than the Jesus character. I would not take morality advice from him.

Not being able to resolve these issues as a child, I dismissed religion and didn't think much of it again until my early adulthood where I researched my views and refined how I viewed the world.

Why would you dismiss what Jesus taught? do you believe He lied?

For just the reasons I've already stated in my original post. How do I know that any of it is true?

I know this is the atheist thread and I apologize for sounding brash but your post appeared genuine to me so I am genuinely curious, that is all really. I think you should consider some things.

I am genuine. I have considered things at great length. It may sound like I just casually came to this decision from the way I explained it earlier. But it was not that simple. I wrestled with these ideas for some time. Particularly I struggled with the idea of my own mortality with no afterlife. It terrified me. But even in the face of that fear I could not reconcile my rational mind with what I was being told by the church and what I was reading in the Bible.
Reasonslap
Posts: 221
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7/7/2015 10:01:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 7:15:25 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
What do you consider to be the most compelling argument against the existence of God?

The fact that God cannot exist, because there is nothing which theists have said created him. Sure, other religions have their gods being created, like the egg in ancient Egypt, but where did the egg come from? Something can NEVER come from nothing.
Reasonslap
Posts: 221
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7/7/2015 10:12:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 3:20:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/6/2015 3:02:59 PM, JMcKinley wrote:
There are plenty of reasons to disbelieve theist claims. But the one that truly made me think the most when I was a child and first became an atheist was this:

Plenty? you better produce more than what you wrote below.

Out of all the hundreds of thousands of different religions and denominations; how do you know that the one you pick is the right one? If every religion claims to have the real truth, how do you know which one is right? Shouldn't one stand out as being significantly more believable, reliable or accurate?

And they do, and to say a few don't is ignorant. It should be simple and logical to see what can fit with reality and what is reasonable and logical. You could eliminate 90% right from the start just based on reason alone, not all of mans ideas are on the mark, some imagination, some lies, some stories, some maniacal, some manipulative, some fantasies but some genuine, honest and real with legit observation.
Give me more than four examples of any religious practice or spiritual beliefs that are more convincing than the Bible.....
You see, if you had knowledge and observation of spiritual things you would see much more clear. Religions are mans interpretation of the spiritual realm and the after life, some bizarre and a few others accurate, in their own way, but the knowledge Jesus had many spiritual people will tell you He is truth.
Christianity is unique in that is applies to us in the present, it is applicable to our life now.

It became apparent to me at a young age that what religion you were depended almost entirely on where you were born and to whom. This meant that it was entirely arbitrary, and that there was nothing special about the church that my family went to. It also meant that when picking a religion you were essentially guessing and hoping that the one you picked was right, because there was no way to know.

More atheist brainwashing, believing that any theistic beliefs are the result of indoctrination and because some ones mommy told them, think for yourself and stop buying into atheist mindsets.
Take a pole on how many atheists are around here that were raised "Christian", then you will see how solid that assertion really is.

What do you feel about the teachings and principles of Jesus?

Not being able to resolve these issues as a child, I dismissed religion and didn't think much of it again until my early adulthood where I researched my views and refined how I viewed the world.

Why would you dismiss what Jesus taught? do you believe He lied?

1) he did say that his presented argument convinced him the most.
2) One of those 90% is Christianity. A god who wants us to kill gays? Kill unbelievers? Have slaves, as long as they are unbelievers?
Islam also applies to people in the present. And Buddism. And Hinduism. And many other religions, dumba**. Many people may say that Jesus was telling the truth, but many more disagree with you.
3) They are taught through indoctrination. You are brought to church forcefully as a kid. You do not resist as you are just a young child. They teach you lies. You believe them because they say they are true. I have had this process happen to me. I was a Presbyterian, but I have seen the truth, there is no god. I was raised Christian, and many of my fellow atheists were too. I have broken the indoctrination by asking actual questions about God. He was proven FALSE.
4) Jesus taught some good things, like how a secular child is taught these through SECULAR ways. The secular ways make more sense than what i was taught, when i was a Presbyterian.
5) I believe he was crazy.