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Interpretation of scriptures

InsertNameHere
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8/16/2010 5:52:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is just a little something I randomly thought of and started thinking about. Most theists generally believe that their scriptures are perfect and infallible. While that may or may not be true, humans are flawed and we see what appears to be alot of violence done in the name of religion. This violence is often justified by scriptures which could point towards an argument often used by atheists, that the religious texts themselves are flawed as they were created by humans rather than God.

I thought of another argument in this direction. What if God is perfect and produced a perfect text, but because humans are flawed(greed, tendency to fight, etc.) they are unable to properly interpret this text alot of problems occur? Thoughts?

P.S- This is probably terrible, but it's just an interesting thought I had on the fly I felt needed to be discussed. Besides, it sounded better in my head.
tvellalott
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8/16/2010 6:05:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 5:52:01 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
This is just a little something I randomly thought of and started thinking about. Most theists generally believe that their scriptures are perfect and infallible. While that may or may not be true, humans are flawed and we see what appears to be alot of violence done in the name of religion. This violence is often justified by scriptures which could point towards an argument often used by atheists, that the religious texts themselves are flawed as they were created by humans rather than God.

I thought of another argument in this direction. What if God is perfect and produced a perfect text, but because humans are flawed(greed, tendency to fight, etc.) they are unable to properly interpret this text alot of problems occur? Thoughts?

P.S- This is probably terrible, but it's just an interesting thought I had on the fly I felt needed to be discussed. Besides, it sounded better in my head.

An interesting thought. However if the scriptures (Bible, Quran) are indeed a perfect representation of a perfect God, then God is malevolent, since he also created us and surely knew what effect those books would have on his creations.
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InsertNameHere
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8/16/2010 6:12:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:05:18 PM, tvellalott wrote:

An interesting thought. However if the scriptures (Bible, Quran) are indeed a perfect representation of a perfect God, then God is malevolent, since he also created us and surely knew what effect those books would have on his creations.

Well the scriptures themselves could be perfect, but there could be all these different interpretations due to the fact humans have certain traits such as greed that would make them want to interpret them a certain way. I don't think God had bad intentions. It's just impossible to make something that everybody could understand the same way. That's why extremists exist, they interpret things differently.
GeoLaureate8
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8/16/2010 6:20:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 5:52:01 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I thought of another argument in this direction. What if God is perfect and produced a perfect text, but because humans are flawed(greed, tendency to fight, etc.) they are unable to properly interpret this text alot of problems occur? Thoughts?

If God produced a perfect text, then it should also have the quality of being coherent, well-articulated, and perfectly clear in it's implications.

I think a better argument would be that humans can't properly transcribe the message onto paper after receiving a message from God.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tvellalott
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8/16/2010 6:22:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:20:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
If God produced a perfect text, then it should also have the quality of being coherent, well-articulated, and perfectly clear in it's implications.

I think a better argument would be that humans can't properly transcribe the message onto paper after receiving a message from God.

Even this is flawed. Should God be able to deliver a message perfectly clearly?
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InsertNameHere
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8/16/2010 6:22:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:20:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I think a better argument would be that humans can't properly transcribe the message onto paper after receiving a message from God.

I didn't even think of that until now, but that's very possible too.
GeoLaureate8
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8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:22:21 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:20:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
If God produced a perfect text, then it should also have the quality of being coherent, well-articulated, and perfectly clear in it's implications.

I think a better argument would be that humans can't properly transcribe the message onto paper after receiving a message from God.

Even this is flawed. Should God be able to deliver a message perfectly clearly?

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tvellalott
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8/16/2010 6:25:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:22:21 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:20:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
If God produced a perfect text, then it should also have the quality of being coherent, well-articulated, and perfectly clear in it's implications.

I think a better argument would be that humans can't properly transcribe the message onto paper after receiving a message from God.

Even this is flawed. Should God be able to deliver a message perfectly clearly?

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

Why would a perfect God choose a messenger who couldn't perfect understand and interpret his word. Wasn't Moses chosen for exactly that reason?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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InsertNameHere
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8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.
InsertNameHere
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8/16/2010 6:28:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.

As in purposely altered them.
tvellalott
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8/16/2010 6:28:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.

Again, why would a perfect God give his perfect word to someone who would alter and corrupt said word?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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GeoLaureate8
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8/16/2010 6:29:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:25:27 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:22:21 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Even this is flawed. Should God be able to deliver a message perfectly clearly?

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

Why would a perfect God choose a messenger who couldn't perfect understand and interpret his word. Wasn't Moses chosen for exactly that reason?

You just changed your argument, lol.

The answer to your question is, no person is perfect so who could perfectly understand and interpret his word?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
InsertNameHere
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8/16/2010 6:32:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:29:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

The answer to your question is, no person is perfect so who could perfectly understand and interpret his word?

Yep, which is why various interpretations and sects exist making scriptures appear imperfect.
GeoLaureate8
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8/16/2010 6:34:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:28:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.

As in purposely altered them.

Oh great! The founders of your religion were purposely deceptive by intentionally altering the message!

That's actually been my position for the longest, except I deny divine inspiration.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tvellalott
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8/16/2010 6:34:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:29:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:25:27 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:22:21 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Even this is flawed. Should God be able to deliver a message perfectly clearly?

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

Why would a perfect God choose a messenger who couldn't perfect understand and interpret his word. Wasn't Moses chosen for exactly that reason?

You just changed your argument, lol.
I know, but I was just asking the next logical question...

The answer to your question is, no person is perfect so who could perfectly understand and interpret his word?
Bah! :P
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InsertNameHere
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8/16/2010 6:38:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:34:47 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Oh great! The founders of your religion were purposely deceptive by intentionally altering the message!

That's actually been my position for the longest, except I deny divine inspiration.

Meh, I don't actually believe that, but it's an interesting possibility that should be addressed in this thread. If God was God he would ensure his messages were delivered correctly and written down correctly. Humans just can't interpret them perfectly because of our own imperfections.
lovelife
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8/16/2010 6:41:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:38:13 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:34:47 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Oh great! The founders of your religion were purposely deceptive by intentionally altering the message!

That's actually been my position for the longest, except I deny divine inspiration.

Meh, I don't actually believe that, but it's an interesting possibility that should be addressed in this thread. If God was God he would ensure his messages were delivered correctly and written down correctly. Humans just can't interpret them perfectly because of our own imperfections.

Kinda what I always believed too.
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the-good-teacher
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8/16/2010 6:58:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 5:52:01 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
This is just a little something I randomly thought of and started thinking about. Most theists generally believe that their scriptures are perfect and infallible. While that may or may not be true, humans are flawed and we see what appears to be alot of violence done in the name of religion. This violence is often justified by scriptures which could point towards an argument often used by atheists, that the religious texts themselves are flawed as they were created by humans rather than God.

I thought of another argument in this direction. What if God is perfect and produced a perfect text, but because humans are flawed(greed, tendency to fight, etc.) they are unable to properly interpret this text alot of problems occur? Thoughts?

P.S- This is probably terrible, but it's just an interesting thought I had on the fly I felt needed to be discussed. Besides, it sounded better in my head.

--------------
the bible teaches of two sets of eyes, those who have then to see and those who have not,

We know that Adam and Eve spoke about having their eyes opened once they partook of the fruit,

It's the same when a person believes, because the bible is then transformed from being a collection of Books, and into extremely Good News (Gospel) there's loads of fruit in the bible, it's like being back in the garden all clean again because we have been forgiven through the atonement

"Atonement" fron the Greek "katallasso", meaning "to exchange", and in its Biblical context means "to be reconciled", or "restored to favor"

It makes sense to me !

-----------------------------o.O--^ 5--
InsertNameHere
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8/16/2010 7:17:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:58:48 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:

--------------
the bible teaches of two sets of eyes, those who have then to see and those who have not,

We know that Adam and Eve spoke about having their eyes opened once they partook of the fruit,

It's the same when a person believes, because the bible is then transformed from being a collection of Books, and into extremely Good News (Gospel) there's loads of fruit in the bible, it's like being back in the garden all clean again because we have been forgiven through the atonement

"Atonement" fron the Greek "katallasso", meaning "to exchange", and in its Biblical context means "to be reconciled", or "restored to favor"

It makes sense to me !

-----------------------------o.O--^ 5--

Ok, I think this just killed my thread.
lovelife
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8/16/2010 7:18:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 7:17:09 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:58:48 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:

--------------
the bible teaches of two sets of eyes, those who have then to see and those who have not,

We know that Adam and Eve spoke about having their eyes opened once they partook of the fruit,

It's the same when a person believes, because the bible is then transformed from being a collection of Books, and into extremely Good News (Gospel) there's loads of fruit in the bible, it's like being back in the garden all clean again because we have been forgiven through the atonement

"Atonement" fron the Greek "katallasso", meaning "to exchange", and in its Biblical context means "to be reconciled", or "restored to favor"

It makes sense to me !

-----------------------------o.O--^ 5--

Ok, I think this just killed my thread.

Pretty much. I don't think I like this teacher fellow.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
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8/16/2010 7:20:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 7:18:37 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 8/16/2010 7:17:09 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Ok, I think this just killed my thread.

Pretty much. I don't think I like this teacher fellow.

I don't think very many people here do.
the-good-teacher
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8/16/2010 7:58:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 6:28:42 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.

Again, why would a perfect God give his perfect word to someone who would alter and corrupt said word?

--------------

Take the farmer for example, He's growing wheat but unfortunately it's mixed with tare, he sure wants the wheat to grow, but in order to do so he has to allow the sun and rain to fall on them both,

--------------------------o.O---^ 5--
tvellalott
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8/16/2010 8:12:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 7:58:58 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:28:42 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.

Again, why would a perfect God give his perfect word to someone who would alter and corrupt said word?

--------------

Take the farmer for example, He's growing wheat but unfortunately it's mixed with tare, he sure wants the wheat to grow, but in order to do so he has to allow the sun and rain to fall on them both,

--------------------------o.O---^ 5--

That farmer doesn't sound very perfect. If he was perfect surely he could grow perfect wheat.
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tkubok
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8/16/2010 8:12:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 7:58:58 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:28:42 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.

Again, why would a perfect God give his perfect word to someone who would alter and corrupt said word?

--------------

Take the farmer for example, He's growing wheat but unfortunately it's mixed with tare, he sure wants the wheat to grow, but in order to do so he has to allow the sun and rain to fall on them both,

--------------------------o.O---^ 5--

Are you saying God is incapable of distinguishing the tare from the wheat?
the-good-teacher
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8/16/2010 8:46:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 8:12:48 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/16/2010 7:58:58 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:28:42 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.

Again, why would a perfect God give his perfect word to someone who would alter and corrupt said word?

--------------

Take the farmer for example, He's growing wheat but unfortunately it's mixed with tare, he sure wants the wheat to grow, but in order to do so he has to allow the sun and rain to fall on them both,

--------------------------o.O---^ 5--

Are you saying God is incapable of distinguishing the tare from the wheat?

--------------

Matt 13:35, contains the parable... but in answer to your question, HE does indeed know !,

And if you're familiar with harvesting techniques around 2,000 years ago, you'll understand another parable in Matt 3:12,

--------------------------------o.O--^ 5---
annhasle
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8/16/2010 8:49:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 7:58:58 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:28:42 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.

Again, why would a perfect God give his perfect word to someone who would alter and corrupt said word?

--------------

Take the farmer for example, He's growing wheat but unfortunately it's mixed with tare, he sure wants the wheat to grow, but in order to do so he has to allow the sun and rain to fall on them both,

--------------------------o.O---^ 5--

So, you're saying that God knows that there will be believers (the wheat) and then non-believers (the tare), but both will exist? Why wouldn't he get rid of the non-believers like the farmer would with tare?
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
the-good-teacher
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8/16/2010 8:59:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 8:49:31 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/16/2010 7:58:58 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:28:42 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.

Again, why would a perfect God give his perfect word to someone who would alter and corrupt said word?

--------------

Take the farmer for example, He's growing wheat but unfortunately it's mixed with tare, he sure wants the wheat to grow, but in order to do so he has to allow the sun and rain to fall on them both,

--------------------------o.O---^ 5--

So, you're saying that God knows that there will be believers (the wheat) and then non-believers (the tare), but both will exist? Why wouldn't he get rid of the non-believers like the farmer would with tare?

--------------

God IS the farmer, sorry for any confusion,

---------------------------------o.O---^ 5 ---
annhasle
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8/16/2010 9:01:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 8:59:40 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/16/2010 8:49:31 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/16/2010 7:58:58 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:28:42 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.

Again, why would a perfect God give his perfect word to someone who would alter and corrupt said word?

--------------

Take the farmer for example, He's growing wheat but unfortunately it's mixed with tare, he sure wants the wheat to grow, but in order to do so he has to allow the sun and rain to fall on them both,

--------------------------o.O---^ 5--

So, you're saying that God knows that there will be believers (the wheat) and then non-believers (the tare), but both will exist? Why wouldn't he get rid of the non-believers like the farmer would with tare?

--------------

God IS the farmer, sorry for any confusion,

---------------------------------o.O---^ 5 ---

Exactly. So why wouldn't God (the farmer) throw out the non-believers (the tare)? If real farmers throw out tare... shouldn't God?
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
lovelife
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8/16/2010 9:11:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/16/2010 9:01:08 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/16/2010 8:59:40 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/16/2010 8:49:31 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 8/16/2010 7:58:58 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:28:42 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:26:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/16/2010 6:24:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the messenger will understand or interpret it properly.

What if all the messengers understood the messages perfectly, but then altered them as they were writing them down? O.o That would certainly misguide people.

Again, why would a perfect God give his perfect word to someone who would alter and corrupt said word?

--------------

Take the farmer for example, He's growing wheat but unfortunately it's mixed with tare, he sure wants the wheat to grow, but in order to do so he has to allow the sun and rain to fall on them both,

--------------------------o.O---^ 5--

So, you're saying that God knows that there will be believers (the wheat) and then non-believers (the tare), but both will exist? Why wouldn't he get rid of the non-believers like the farmer would with tare?

--------------

God IS the farmer, sorry for any confusion,

---------------------------------o.O---^ 5 ---

Exactly. So why wouldn't God (the farmer) throw out the non-believers (the tare)? If real farmers throw out tare... shouldn't God?

God isn't that good of a farmer.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave