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Father of ALL?

Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Discuss Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

How do you interpret it?
Is God an invisible supernatural character or something else?

Is God the Father of the devil, all that is evil and all that humans judge as bad and wrong?
If not, how can God be the Father of all?

Is God in and through the devil?
If not how can God be in and through all?
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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7/3/2015 9:47:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
God is the Father of all as the universal cause of all existence. He is in them all as He gave them being and maintains them.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
sword
Posts: 96
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7/3/2015 9:49:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Discuss Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


How do you interpret it?
Is God an invisible supernatural character or something else?

God is invisible to his creation because he is outside of it.

Is God the Father of the devil, all that is evil and all that humans judge as bad and wrong? : :

Yes. God is the creator of everything we humans can and can't understand.

If not, how can God be the Father of all?

Is God in and through the devil? : :

The devil is a subjective name like satan, Lucifer, the world, the wicked, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, etc that describes things that man can't understand which causes them fear.

If not how can God be in and through all? : :

Everything visible and invisible from each of God's created beings came from the thoughts of God.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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7/3/2015 10:03:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 9:47:24 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
God is the Father of all as the universal cause of all existence. He is in them all as He gave them being and maintains them.

Hi Charlie.
Do you perceive God to be an invisible supernatural character or a personification of a process ?

What is in all existing things?
What do they all have in common?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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7/3/2015 10:14:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 9:49:26 PM, sword wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Discuss Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


How do you interpret it?
Is God an invisible supernatural character or something else?

God is invisible to his creation because he is outside of it.

Is God the Father of the devil, all that is evil and all that humans judge as bad and wrong? : :

Yes. God is the creator of everything we humans can and can't understand.

If not, how can God be the Father of all?

Is God in and through the devil? : :

The devil is a subjective name like satan, Lucifer, the world, the wicked, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, etc that describes things that man can't understand which causes them fear.

If not how can God be in and through all? : :

Everything visible and invisible from each of God's created beings came from the thoughts of God.

Hi Brad,
I understand your invisible programmer is outside the program of your mind and not in it.
How do you explain the scripture which claims he is in ALL if he is not in his own program?

"The devil" is just a label humans have placed on a concept of evil in order to personify it.
They did the same with the label "God".
The titles are simply an anthropomorphism of good and evil.

Human thoughts come from humans minds not from any supernatural character or programmer outside of the human mind.
No invisible programmer is forcing you to do anything Brad.
You force yourself to do what you do.
No one but you is responsible for your words and actions.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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7/3/2015 10:15:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 10:03:19 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:47:24 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
God is the Father of all as the universal cause of all existence. He is in them all as He gave them being and maintains them.

Hi Charlie.
Do you perceive God to be an invisible supernatural character or a personification of a process ?

What is in all existing things?
What do they all have in common?

I view God more akin to your rather rough "invisible supernatural character" definition. To answer your question, there is actuality in all existing things -- the "first actuality" in an existing thing is usually called the "substance." Superadded qualities are usually called "accidents"
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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7/3/2015 10:34:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 10:15:01 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:03:19 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:47:24 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
God is the Father of all as the universal cause of all existence. He is in them all as He gave them being and maintains them.

Hi Charlie.
Do you perceive God to be an invisible supernatural character or a personification of a process ?

What is in all existing things?
What do they all have in common?

I view God more akin to your rather rough "invisible supernatural character" definition. To answer your question, there is actuality in all existing things -- the "first actuality" in an existing thing is usually called the "substance." Superadded qualities are usually called "accidents"

If substance is what all existing things have in common how is that substance invisible? How do you manage to turn "substance" into an invisible character?

"Substance" is perfectly visible and tangible, is it not?
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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7/3/2015 10:40:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 10:34:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:15:01 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:03:19 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:47:24 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
God is the Father of all as the universal cause of all existence. He is in them all as He gave them being and maintains them.

Hi Charlie.
Do you perceive God to be an invisible supernatural character or a personification of a process ?

What is in all existing things?
What do they all have in common?

I view God more akin to your rather rough "invisible supernatural character" definition. To answer your question, there is actuality in all existing things -- the "first actuality" in an existing thing is usually called the "substance." Superadded qualities are usually called "accidents"

If substance is what all existing things have in common how is that substance invisible? How do you manage to turn "substance" into an invisible character?

"Substance" is perfectly visible and tangible, is it not?

I believe you misunderstood my words earlier. I am not arguing that God is physically inside of all existing things -- an immaterial God cannot be *in* a material object in the same sense whereby a material object is *in* a position, etc. Nor is an immaterial God in a material object as part-to-whole, or any sense of a material nature. I am arguing that God is in all things, whether material or immaterial, as He who gave it existence and maintains its existence.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Martley
Posts: 126
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7/3/2015 10:58:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Discuss Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


How do you interpret it?
Is God an invisible supernatural character or something else?

Is God the Father of the devil, all that is evil and all that humans judge as bad and wrong?
If not, how can God be the Father of all?

Is God in and through the devil?
If not how can God be in and through all?

4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I've always took this as a statement of unity of all believers because of the reference of the "one faith, one baptism". As such the word "all" would refer to all believers, and since the passage is direct at "you" (in verse 4) a believer, and extending that too "all" other believers in the one god (verse 6).

Since the devil was not "called to one hope, one Lord, one faith and one baptism" then he is not part this connective unity and oneness of "all".
A Black Belt is a white belt who never quit.

The best time to do something was 20 years ago.... the second best to do something is now.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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7/3/2015 11:13:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"The scriptures DO say... "Peter is the Key Holder!"
The scriptures DO say..."The CHURCH is Jesus' Holy, Blameless, Without stain, BODY!"
The scriptures DO say... Jesus died for his CHURCH"!
The scriptures DO say...Jesus LOVES his Church"!
They say "Peter will strengthen the other Apostles!
The scriptures DO say... "Jesus is ALWAYS with his followers to the end of time!"
The scriptures DO say... Form AMONG his followers will come False teachers!
The scriptures DO say... "The Holy Spirit is with Jesus' Followers FOREVER as a GUIDE!"
The scriptures DO say... "The flesh of Jesus is real food"!
The scriptures DO say... "The CHURCH has all of God' AUTHORITY to TEACH all nations"!
The scriptures DO say... Peter spoke for Jesus"!
The scriptures DO say... "Bishops COMMAND and TEACH men"!
The scriptures DO say... "The TEACHING of the bishop will save men"!
The scriptures DO say... "Scriptures are USEFUL for teaching Rebuking training and correcting"!
The scriptures DO say... "Listen to the Church of be treated as a PAGAN"!
The scriptures DO say... "Baptize ALL Nations"!
The scriptures DO say... "WHOLE households were baptized"!"
- St. Dogknox -

I don't think that it can be any clearer.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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7/4/2015 2:30:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Discuss Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


How do you interpret it?
Is God an invisible supernatural character or something else?

Is God the Father of the devil, all that is evil and all that humans judge as bad and wrong?
If not, how can God be the Father of all?

Is God in and through the devil?
If not how can God be in and through all?

I interpret it as the author of that passage in the Bible using their imagination, as did all the authors of the documents making up that book, imo.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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7/4/2015 2:30:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:34:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:15:01 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:03:19 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:47:24 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
God is the Father of all as the universal cause of all existence. He is in them all as He gave them being and maintains them.

Hi Charlie.
Do you perceive God to be an invisible supernatural character or a personification of a process ?

What is in all existing things?
What do they all have in common?

I view God more akin to your rather rough "invisible supernatural character" definition. To answer your question, there is actuality in all existing things -- the "first actuality" in an existing thing is usually called the "substance." Superadded qualities are usually called "accidents"

If substance is what all existing things have in common how is that substance invisible? How do you manage to turn "substance" into an invisible character?

"Substance" is perfectly visible and tangible, is it not?

I believe you misunderstood my words earlier. I am not arguing that God is physically inside of all existing things -- an immaterial God cannot be *in* a material object in the same sense whereby a material object is *in* a position, etc.

Why not?
Why do you think God is immaterial?
If God is ALL, and everywhere, it must be material as well as immaterial, visible as well as invisible, and also be in all positions, etc.

Nor is an immaterial God in a material object as part-to-whole, or any sense of a material nature. I am arguing that God is in all things, whether material or immaterial, as He who gave it existence and maintains its existence.

You are contradicting yourself here. First you say " an immaterial God cannot be *in* a material object in the same sense whereby a material object is *in* a position, etc."
Then you say " I am arguing that God is in all things, whether material or immaterial,

Either God is in all things and the father of all things or it cannot be in all things. Any father of visible things is visible since the visible father reproduces visible offspring in his image.

If nothing is impossible with God, it is not impossible for God to be both visible and also invisible at all times.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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7/4/2015 2:45:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 10:58:58 PM, Martley wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Discuss Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


How do you interpret it?
Is God an invisible supernatural character or something else?

Is God the Father of the devil, all that is evil and all that humans judge as bad and wrong?
If not, how can God be the Father of all?

Is God in and through the devil?
If not how can God be in and through all?

4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I've always took this as a statement of unity of all believers because of the reference of the "one faith, one baptism". As such the word "all" would refer to all believers, and since the passage is direct at "you" (in verse 4) a believer, and extending that too "all" other believers in the one god (verse 6).

Since the devil was not "called to one hope, one Lord, one faith and one baptism" then he is not part this connective unity and oneness of "all".

Fair enough.
However, do you believe God is omnipresent?
If you do, does omnipresence not imply he is everywhere and in all things regardless of whether those things believe in any God or not?
If God is everywhere he/it would be in all good things and all bad things.
If it was not, it would not be omnipresent.

As for any "devil" being called to one faith. Does not God call ALL and desire all to be saved? All would include the devil would it not?

Jesus did after all die in the devils place, did he not?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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7/4/2015 2:50:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 11:13:17 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
"The scriptures DO say... "Peter is the Key Holder!"
The scriptures DO say..."The CHURCH is Jesus' Holy, Blameless, Without stain, BODY!"
The scriptures DO say... Jesus died for his CHURCH"!
The scriptures DO say...Jesus LOVES his Church"!
They say "Peter will strengthen the other Apostles!
The scriptures DO say... "Jesus is ALWAYS with his followers to the end of time!"
The scriptures DO say... Form AMONG his followers will come False teachers!
The scriptures DO say... "The Holy Spirit is with Jesus' Followers FOREVER as a GUIDE!"
The scriptures DO say... "The flesh of Jesus is real food"!
The scriptures DO say... "The CHURCH has all of God' AUTHORITY to TEACH all nations"!
The scriptures DO say... Peter spoke for Jesus"!
The scriptures DO say... "Bishops COMMAND and TEACH men"!
The scriptures DO say... "The TEACHING of the bishop will save men"!
The scriptures DO say... "Scriptures are USEFUL for teaching Rebuking training and correcting"!
The scriptures DO say... "Listen to the Church of be treated as a PAGAN"!
The scriptures DO say... "Baptize ALL Nations"!
The scriptures DO say... "WHOLE households were baptized"!"
- St. Dogknox -

I don't think that it can be any clearer.

I thought the bible taught that Jesus died for the whole world not just for the church.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The church condemns the world but Jesus does not.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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7/4/2015 2:57:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 2:30:41 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Discuss Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


How do you interpret it?
Is God an invisible supernatural character or something else?

Is God the Father of the devil, all that is evil and all that humans judge as bad and wrong?
If not, how can God be the Father of all?

Is God in and through the devil?
If not how can God be in and through all?

I interpret it as the author of that passage in the Bible using their imagination, as did all the authors of the documents making up that book, imo.

Hi JJ,
I see from your profile that you like writing.
I agree with you about the authors using imagination and creative writing.
Look through the eyes of a creative writer and what message do you see in the passage if any? Check the whole chapter or whole book of Ephesians if you need to.
I think the bible authors were conveying messages which are applicable to life in general.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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7/4/2015 3:40:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 2:30:48 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:34:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:15:01 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:03:19 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:47:24 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
God is the Father of all as the universal cause of all existence. He is in them all as He gave them being and maintains them.

Hi Charlie.
Do you perceive God to be an invisible supernatural character or a personification of a process ?

What is in all existing things?
What do they all have in common?

I view God more akin to your rather rough "invisible supernatural character" definition. To answer your question, there is actuality in all existing things -- the "first actuality" in an existing thing is usually called the "substance." Superadded qualities are usually called "accidents"

If substance is what all existing things have in common how is that substance invisible? How do you manage to turn "substance" into an invisible character?

"Substance" is perfectly visible and tangible, is it not?

I believe you misunderstood my words earlier. I am not arguing that God is physically inside of all existing things -- an immaterial God cannot be *in* a material object in the same sense whereby a material object is *in* a position, etc.

Why not?
Why do you think God is immaterial?
If God is ALL, and everywhere, it must be material as well as immaterial, visible as well as invisible, and also be in all positions, etc.

God is immaterial because His creation of matter implies His priority over matter. You are simply (and uncharitably) equivocating on the word "everywhere." I don't mean that God is everywhere in *any* material sense. You can shove that idea into the mental trash can. The idea is that God is in all things by His universal creation and influence over them; i.e., a king is everywhere by his power over the kingdom.

Nor is an immaterial God in a material object as part-to-whole, or any sense of a material nature. I am arguing that God is in all things, whether material or immaterial, as He who gave it existence and maintains its existence.

You are contradicting yourself here. First you say " an immaterial God cannot be *in* a material object in the same sense whereby a material object is *in* a position, etc."
Then you say " I am arguing that God is in all things, whether material or immaterial,

This is not contradictory. You are simply taking one meaning of the word "in" and conflating it with another sense of the word "in." I particularly said that God cannot be in a material thing *in a specific sense*, although He can be in a material thing (and indeed all things) *in a different sense*. Like every other "God-is-contradictory" argument, it's just wordplay.

Either God is in all things and the father of all things or it cannot be in all things. Any father of visible things is visible since the visible father reproduces visible offspring in his image.

There's no reason why the creator of a material thing cannot be immaterial. It's simply an instance of the principle that cause can be greater than the effect. If, rather, this is an argument based on a really rudimentary interpretation of the famous verse in Genesis, we can have a whole conversation about the Hebrew word zelem (image) somewhere else.

If nothing is impossible with God, it is not impossible for God to be both visible and also invisible at all times.

I don't subscribe to the idea that omnipotence extends to meaningless drivel, and neither do most theistic philosophers.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Martley
Posts: 126
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7/4/2015 4:37:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 2:45:37 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:58:58 PM, Martley wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Discuss Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


How do you interpret it?
Is God an invisible supernatural character or something else?

Is God the Father of the devil, all that is evil and all that humans judge as bad and wrong?
If not, how can God be the Father of all?

Is God in and through the devil?
If not how can God be in and through all?

4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I've always took this as a statement of unity of all believers because of the reference of the "one faith, one baptism". As such the word "all" would refer to all believers, and since the passage is direct at "you" (in verse 4) a believer, and extending that too "all" other believers in the one god (verse 6).

Since the devil was not "called to one hope, one Lord, one faith and one baptism" then he is not part this connective unity and oneness of "all".

Fair enough.
However, do you believe God is omnipresent?
If you do, does omnipresence not imply he is everywhere and in all things regardless of whether those things believe in any God or not?
If God is everywhere he/it would be in all good things and all bad things.
If it was not, it would not be omnipresent.

As for any "devil" being called to one faith. Does not God call ALL and desire all to be saved? All would include the devil would it not?

Jesus did after all die in the devils place, did he not?

I do not disagree with the point behind your line of questioning, I just don;t think the passage you used properly illustrated it within its context. Its just my understanding of it, I'm not claiming to be right.

Since you are using a Pauline epistle I think the Pauline interpretation of gods omnipresence is relevant. I will put Ephesians aside for now, I feel the main theme behind the epistle is unity in christ as he is grappling with serious divisions in the early faith between Jewish and Gentile Christians. Paul has a curious interpretation of gods omnipresent as I view it.... as he states in Hebrews that "there is no creature hidden from His sight"... I take this to indict gods power and presence are above all things. This would be backed up by Luke 4:6-7 in which the devil says to Jesus "I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours." This, of course, begs the question... given by whom? As an anapocalypticist, Paul would not have thought that the world he lived in was perfect in any respect... Like Jesus he believed he was living in an imperfect and unclean world that god would save you from... or in Pauls case, Jesus would save you from. As both Jesus and Paul were apocalypticists the idea of evil in the world would not have been much of a debate as it is for us as they both believed they were living in the end times of an evil age. In Matthew 24 after explaining all the evils that will bring about the "Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory" Jesus says "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened". It was only after the apocalypic theology of Jesus and Paul did not come to pass that later Christian theology had to try and account for Gods power over the world. Which, in my opinion, they have not successfully done.
A Black Belt is a white belt who never quit.

The best time to do something was 20 years ago.... the second best to do something is now.
Martley
Posts: 126
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7/4/2015 4:56:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 2:45:37 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:58:58 PM, Martley wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Discuss Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


How do you interpret it?
Is God an invisible supernatural character or something else?

Is God the Father of the devil, all that is evil and all that humans judge as bad and wrong?
If not, how can God be the Father of all?

Is God in and through the devil?
If not how can God be in and through all?

4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I've always took this as a statement of unity of all believers because of the reference of the "one faith, one baptism". As such the word "all" would refer to all believers, and since the passage is direct at "you" (in verse 4) a believer, and extending that too "all" other believers in the one god (verse 6).

Since the devil was not "called to one hope, one Lord, one faith and one baptism" then he is not part this connective unity and oneness of "all".

Fair enough.
However, do you believe God is omnipresent?
If you do, does omnipresence not imply he is everywhere and in all things regardless of whether those things believe in any God or not?
If God is everywhere he/it would be in all good things and all bad things.
If it was not, it would not be omnipresent.

As for any "devil" being called to one faith. Does not God call ALL and desire all to be saved? All would include the devil would it not?

Jesus did after all die in the devils place, did he not?

I left out another point I wanted to adress that makes Paul's view of gods power and presence over all being curious. It is the question of Paul's statement that god cannot tell a lie. In Titus (a disputed Pauline writing) but also in Hebews (which is not disputed). It is clear that Paul believes that god is incapable of telling a lie. Hebrews 6:18 "God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged." If god can't tell a lie then doesn't this call into question his own power over himself. This does not address your topic of omnipresence but I think Paul views them as one and the same, power and presence over all things. Speaking to the issue of lying.... Jesus states that the devil is a lair and cannot be trusted which can be used to dismiss the passage in Luke I quoted earlier, but it is an interesting point none the less.
A Black Belt is a white belt who never quit.

The best time to do something was 20 years ago.... the second best to do something is now.
sword
Posts: 96
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7/4/2015 5:12:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 10:14:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:49:26 PM, sword wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Discuss Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


How do you interpret it?
Is God an invisible supernatural character or something else?

God is invisible to his creation because he is outside of it.

Is God the Father of the devil, all that is evil and all that humans judge as bad and wrong? : :

Yes. God is the creator of everything we humans can and can't understand.

If not, how can God be the Father of all?

Is God in and through the devil? : :

The devil is a subjective name like satan, Lucifer, the world, the wicked, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, etc that describes things that man can't understand which causes them fear.

If not how can God be in and through all? : :

Everything visible and invisible from each of God's created beings came from the thoughts of God.

Hi Brad,
I understand your invisible programmer is outside the program of your mind and not in it.
How do you explain the scripture which claims he is in ALL if he is not in his own program?

His thoughts are in ALL His creation because His creation is His thoughts spoken into waves where all visible and invisible experiences exist according to His program called Eternal Life. This program will give us life experiences forever.

"The devil" is just a label humans have placed on a concept of evil in order to personify it.
They did the same with the label "God".
The titles are simply an anthropomorphism of good and evil.

You lack the knowledge to understand what the tree of the knowledge of good and evil means. Good and evil are not contrasts of who God and Satan is. Good doesn't mean God and Evil doesn't mean Satan. Good and Evil make up this world, which is also known as Lucifer, Satan, the Devil, the Wicked One, etc.

Human thoughts come from humans minds not from any supernatural character or programmer outside of the human mind. : :

All our thoughts come from God's creation which is nothing but invisible waves. These waves have to be converted into our written and spoken languages , visible bodies with senses and visible objects to look at, etc.

No invisible programmer is forcing you to do anything Brad.
You force yourself to do what you do.
No one but you is responsible for your words and actions. : :

You have never known our Creator or the power He has to force Brad to do exactly as He planned for him to do and say.

You are doing and saying exactly as God planned it but you don't realize that. That's how perfectly he made us.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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7/4/2015 8:35:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 5:12:10 AM, sword wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:14:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:49:26 PM, sword wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:

You have never known our Creator or the power He has to force Brad to do exactly as He planned for him to do and say.

Yeah, Brad was the lunatic who repeatedly lied concerning his own impending death, then had the colossal nerve to claim that God made him tell the lies. Then he claimed he was "humbled", but I fail to see how simply obeying orders and directives that happened to be false would be very "humbling". God "cannot lie", yet Brad claimed that what God told him was ... a lie. Then Brad claimed he just made it up, but God made him do it. Nutcase extraordinaire!
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
sword
Posts: 96
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7/4/2015 11:05:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 8:35:26 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/4/2015 5:12:10 AM, sword wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:14:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:49:26 PM, sword wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:

You have never known our Creator or the power He has to force Brad to do exactly as He planned for him to do and say.

Yeah, Brad was the lunatic who repeatedly lied concerning his own impending death, then had the colossal nerve to claim that God made him tell the lies. Then he claimed he was "humbled", but I fail to see how simply obeying orders and directives that happened to be false would be very "humbling". God "cannot lie", yet Brad claimed that what God told him was ... a lie. Then Brad claimed he just made it up, but God made him do it. Nutcase extraordinaire! ::

After all the knowledge I've taught you about the flesh and the spirit of a man, you should understand how God created you and I.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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7/4/2015 11:15:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 11:05:23 AM, sword wrote:
At 7/4/2015 8:35:26 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/4/2015 5:12:10 AM, sword wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:14:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:49:26 PM, sword wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:

You have never known our Creator or the power He has to force Brad to do exactly as He planned for him to do and say.

Yeah, Brad was the lunatic who repeatedly lied concerning his own impending death, then had the colossal nerve to claim that God made him tell the lies. Then he claimed he was "humbled", but I fail to see how simply obeying orders and directives that happened to be false would be very "humbling". God "cannot lie", yet Brad claimed that what God told him was ... a lie. Then Brad claimed he just made it up, but God made him do it. Nutcase extraordinaire! ::

After all the knowledge I've taught you about the flesh and the spirit of a man, you should understand how God created you and I.

You lied about that, too. You lie a lot.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
sword
Posts: 96
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7/4/2015 11:51:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 11:15:54 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/4/2015 11:05:23 AM, sword wrote:
At 7/4/2015 8:35:26 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/4/2015 5:12:10 AM, sword wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:14:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:49:26 PM, sword wrote:
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:

You have never known our Creator or the power He has to force Brad to do exactly as He planned for him to do and say.

Yeah, Brad was the lunatic who repeatedly lied concerning his own impending death, then had the colossal nerve to claim that God made him tell the lies. Then he claimed he was "humbled", but I fail to see how simply obeying orders and directives that happened to be false would be very "humbling". God "cannot lie", yet Brad claimed that what God told him was ... a lie. Then Brad claimed he just made it up, but God made him do it. Nutcase extraordinaire! ::

After all the knowledge I've taught you about the flesh and the spirit of a man, you should understand how God created you and I.

You lied about that, too. You lie a lot.: :

Does your flesh lie, Anna?
Skyangel
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7/4/2015 4:55:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 3:40:09 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/4/2015 2:30:48 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:

I believe you misunderstood my words earlier. I am not arguing that God is physically inside of all existing things -- an immaterial God cannot be *in* a material object in the same sense whereby a material object is *in* a position, etc.

Why not?
Why do you think God is immaterial?
If God is ALL, and everywhere, it must be material as well as immaterial, visible as well as invisible, and also be in all positions, etc.

God is immaterial because His creation of matter implies His priority over matter. You are simply (and uncharitably) equivocating on the word "everywhere." I don't mean that God is everywhere in *any* material sense. You can shove that idea into the mental trash can. The idea is that God is in all things by His universal creation and influence over them; i.e., a king is everywhere by his power over the kingdom.

I don't shove anything into the mental trash can and neither should you since nothing is impossible with God.
I do mean God is everywhere in a physical sense, the same as space is everywhere in a physical sense. Space is in me and I am in space. Space is in everything and everything is in space.
There is nothing outside of space since space has no boundaries. It is infinite and eternal.
There is no supernatural entity outside of creation. Creation is the creator of itself. It creates itself in its own image in the process of living and dying at the very same time.

Nor is an immaterial God in a material object as part-to-whole, or any sense of a material nature. I am arguing that God is in all things, whether material or immaterial, as He who gave it existence and maintains its existence.

You are contradicting yourself here. First you say " an immaterial God cannot be *in* a material object in the same sense whereby a material object is *in* a position, etc."
Then you say " I am arguing that God is in all things, whether material or immaterial,

This is not contradictory. You are simply taking one meaning of the word "in" and conflating it with another sense of the word "in." I particularly said that God cannot be in a material thing *in a specific sense*, although He can be in a material thing (and indeed all things) *in a different sense*. Like every other "God-is-contradictory" argument, it's just wordplay.

I think you are wrong. If invisible space can be in any material thing in any sense, why can't your God? Can space do something God cannot do?

Either God is in all things and the father of all things or it cannot be in all things. Any father of visible things is visible since the visible father reproduces visible offspring in his image.

There's no reason why the creator of a material thing cannot be immaterial. It's simply an instance of the principle that cause can be greater than the effect. If, rather, this is an argument based on a really rudimentary interpretation of the famous verse in Genesis, we can have a whole conversation about the Hebrew word zelem (image) somewhere else.

I am saying creators of visible things are visible and creators of invisible things are invisible. The bible even teaches that principle. It should be obvious to all. ( John 3:6)
The principle that creation creates all things in the image of the parents is obvious. All things reproduce after their own kind. They are all "a chip off the old block".
The father of humans is humans. The father of plants is plants. The father of animals is animals. The father of stars is stars. The Father of the universe is the universe itself.

If nothing is impossible with God, it is not impossible for God to be both visible and also invisible at all times.

I don't subscribe to the idea that omnipotence extends to meaningless drivel, and neither do most theistic philosophers.

Then why do theists teach meaningless drivel about some invisible supernatural character creating all things from nothing?
The universe itself is omnipotent.
Personify the universe and you end up with your supernatural God character.
Nur-Ab-Sal
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7/4/2015 5:10:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 4:55:09 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/4/2015 3:40:09 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 7/4/2015 2:30:48 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:40:10 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:

I believe you misunderstood my words earlier. I am not arguing that God is physically inside of all existing things -- an immaterial God cannot be *in* a material object in the same sense whereby a material object is *in* a position, etc.

Why not?
Why do you think God is immaterial?
If God is ALL, and everywhere, it must be material as well as immaterial, visible as well as invisible, and also be in all positions, etc.

God is immaterial because His creation of matter implies His priority over matter. You are simply (and uncharitably) equivocating on the word "everywhere." I don't mean that God is everywhere in *any* material sense. You can shove that idea into the mental trash can. The idea is that God is in all things by His universal creation and influence over them; i.e., a king is everywhere by his power over the kingdom.

I don't shove anything into the mental trash can and neither should you since nothing is impossible with God.
I do mean God is everywhere in a physical sense, the same as space is everywhere in a physical sense. Space is in me and I am in space. Space is in everything and everything is in space.
There is nothing outside of space since space has no boundaries. It is infinite and eternal.
There is no supernatural entity outside of creation. Creation is the creator of itself. It creates itself in its own image in the process of living and dying at the very same time.

I'm honestly just reading a whole lot of empty and imprecise ambiguity. It is true that nothing is impossible with God -- but self-contradictions aren't even "something." Could God make colorless green ideas sleep furiously? It's not "something" and it's not "nothing." The subject and the predicate are incompatible with existence -- they are outside the realm of possibility.

Nor is an immaterial God in a material object as part-to-whole, or any sense of a material nature. I am arguing that God is in all things, whether material or immaterial, as He who gave it existence and maintains its existence.

You are contradicting yourself here. First you say " an immaterial God cannot be *in* a material object in the same sense whereby a material object is *in* a position, etc."
Then you say " I am arguing that God is in all things, whether material or immaterial,

This is not contradictory. You are simply taking one meaning of the word "in" and conflating it with another sense of the word "in." I particularly said that God cannot be in a material thing *in a specific sense*, although He can be in a material thing (and indeed all things) *in a different sense*. Like every other "God-is-contradictory" argument, it's just wordplay.

I think you are wrong. If invisible space can be in any material thing in any sense, why can't your God? Can space do something God cannot do?

Space is not *in* a material. Space is the absence of matter.

Either God is in all things and the father of all things or it cannot be in all things. Any father of visible things is visible since the visible father reproduces visible offspring in his image.

There's no reason why the creator of a material thing cannot be immaterial. It's simply an instance of the principle that cause can be greater than the effect. If, rather, this is an argument based on a really rudimentary interpretation of the famous verse in Genesis, we can have a whole conversation about the Hebrew word zelem (image) somewhere else.

I am saying creators of visible things are visible and creators of invisible things are invisible. The bible even teaches that principle. It should be obvious to all. ( John 3:6)
The principle that creation creates all things in the image of the parents is obvious. All things reproduce after their own kind. They are all "a chip off the old block".
The father of humans is humans. The father of plants is plants. The father of animals is animals. The father of stars is stars. The Father of the universe is the universe itself.

I agree to the principle that all things are generated according to their likeness. But I disagree that the likeness that God imprints on all created things is a "bodily" or "visible" quality. God created all bodies and therefore is above the bodily nature. It has been classically affirmed that all things resemble God, but in a different way -- all things have existence which they derive from God, as the highest existence.

If nothing is impossible with God, it is not impossible for God to be both visible and also invisible at all times.

I don't subscribe to the idea that omnipotence extends to meaningless drivel, and neither do most theistic philosophers.

Then why do theists teach meaningless drivel about some invisible supernatural character creating all things from nothing?
The universe itself is omnipotent.
Personify the universe and you end up with your supernatural God character.

I have little tolerance for equivocation so I'll just make this short. When I said "meaningless drivel," I was referring to self-contradictory propositions such as "green ideas" or "square circles" or "married bachelors." We were discussing the nature of omnipotence.

Concerning "the-Universe-is-God" and other pantheistic "theology," we can discuss that on a more relevant thread. Please stay on topic.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Serato
Posts: 743
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7/4/2015 5:40:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 2:50:07 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 11:13:17 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
"The scriptures DO say... "Peter is the Key Holder!"
The scriptures DO say..."The CHURCH is Jesus' Holy, Blameless, Without stain, BODY!"
The scriptures DO say... Jesus died for his CHURCH"!
The scriptures DO say...Jesus LOVES his Church"!
They say "Peter will strengthen the other Apostles!
The scriptures DO say... "Jesus is ALWAYS with his followers to the end of time!"
The scriptures DO say... Form AMONG his followers will come False teachers!
The scriptures DO say... "The Holy Spirit is with Jesus' Followers FOREVER as a GUIDE!"
The scriptures DO say... "The flesh of Jesus is real food"!
The scriptures DO say... "The CHURCH has all of God' AUTHORITY to TEACH all nations"!
The scriptures DO say... Peter spoke for Jesus"!
The scriptures DO say... "Bishops COMMAND and TEACH men"!
The scriptures DO say... "The TEACHING of the bishop will save men"!
The scriptures DO say... "Scriptures are USEFUL for teaching Rebuking training and correcting"!
The scriptures DO say... "Listen to the Church of be treated as a PAGAN"!
The scriptures DO say... "Baptize ALL Nations"!
The scriptures DO say... "WHOLE households were baptized"!"
- St. Dogknox -

I don't think that it can be any clearer.

I thought the bible taught that Jesus died for the whole world not just for the church.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The church condemns the world but Jesus does not.

Actually the Bible does teach that Jesus died for all of humanity and not just a church that formed hundreds of years later to milk the sheep dry of spiritual and monetary currencies, which I'm assuming they use to play poker with in the dungeons below the church while listening to the sweet sounds of alter boys sorrows and screams hanging upside down from chains forged from the molten lava pits connected to hell.
Skyangel
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7/4/2015 5:46:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 4:37:20 AM, Martley wrote:
At 7/4/2015 2:45:37 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:58:58 PM, Martley wrote:
Since the devil was not "called to one hope, one Lord, one faith and one baptism" then he is not part this connective unity and oneness of "all".

Fair enough.
However, do you believe God is omnipresent?
If you do, does omnipresence not imply he is everywhere and in all things regardless of whether those things believe in any God or not?
If God is everywhere he/it would be in all good things and all bad things.
If it was not, it would not be omnipresent.

As for any "devil" being called to one faith. Does not God call ALL and desire all to be saved? All would include the devil would it not?

Jesus did after all die in the devils place, did he not?

I do not disagree with the point behind your line of questioning, I just don;t think the passage you used properly illustrated it within its context. Its just my understanding of it, I'm not claiming to be right.

Since you are using a Pauline epistle I think the Pauline interpretation of gods omnipresence is relevant. I will put Ephesians aside for now, I feel the main theme behind the epistle is unity in christ as he is grappling with serious divisions in the early faith between Jewish and Gentile Christians. Paul has a curious interpretation of gods omnipresent as I view it.... as he states in Hebrews that "there is no creature hidden from His sight"... I take this to indict gods power and presence are above all things. This would be backed up by Luke 4:6-7 in which the devil says to Jesus "I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours." This, of course, begs the question... given by whom? As an anapocalypticist, Paul would not have thought that the world he lived in was perfect in any respect... Like Jesus he believed he was living in an imperfect and unclean world that god would save you from... or in Pauls case, Jesus would save you from. As both Jesus and Paul were apocalypticists the idea of evil in the world would not have been much of a debate as it is for us as they both believed they were living in the end times of an evil age. In Matthew 24 after explaining all the evils that will bring about the "Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory" Jesus says "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened". It was only after the apocalypic theology of Jesus and Paul did not come to pass that later Christian theology had to try and account for Gods power over the world. Which, in my opinion, they have not successfully done.

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

When it comes to the principle of unity and division, I personally think the comparison of Light and darkness to good/God and evil/devil is a very good way of explaining unity as well as division at the same time. Now keep that comparison in mind as you read the rest of this....
Take a look at Earth from space. On Earth you see both light and darkness. They are separated yet also connected like two sides of the same coin. The light creates the darkness and gives darkness authority over itself to a limited extent. Darkness can only go as far as the light allows it to go and no further.
The principle is also conveyed in the bible stories with the devil needing Gods permission to do what he does. In that sense Light gives darkness its authority.
Darkness and light will always exist because that is perfection.
Perfection is not an absence of darkness. It is the unity of light and darkness and the division of it at the very same time. That is the way it is meant to be. Otherwise the Earth would burn up in the heat of the light which was relentlessly beating down on it with no way of escape from the heat.
Light/fire is all consuming. It consumes darkness while also creating it at the very same time. That is the way it naturally works.
Light is ironically self contradictory. It can cause humans to see and also cause them to become blind at the same time if too much light shines in the human eyes.
Both too much light and not enough light can cause blindness. Therefore the light needs to be balanced with darkness if humans wish to see properly.

Referring to your mention of Matthew 24.....
Think of the comparison of darkness to evil again. The "Son of man" is simply a term that describes human offspring. They are always coming. "Sons of men" are the corporate body of "The son of man ". They are always being born.
No generation ever passes without the "The son of man" being born. He/They are born daily. It happens as regularly as the sun rises and the light shines from East to West daily. It is not a one time past or future event. It is an eternal event which is always happening every second of every day.
That should be easy to understand if you compare Light and darkness to God/ Devil.
The light is constantly coming and going on the planet. It always has and always will. It always has created darkness and always will create darkness as well as destroy darkness at the same time. That is perfection. That is the way it is meant to be. Nothing will change because light and darkness together make the whole day which is called light.

Those who can see how the principle works become enlightened and those who want to believe that one day darkness will no longer exist are dreaming and fooling themselves. If no darkness existed they would be blinded by too much light and burned up with too much heat.
The balance of opposites which exist in the universe and on Earth is perfect. If you took away one side it would be imperfect and unbalanced.
Skyangel
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7/4/2015 6:04:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 4:56:53 AM, Martley wrote:
At 7/4/2015 2:45:37 AM, Skyangel wrote:

Fair enough.
However, do you believe God is omnipresent?
If you do, does omnipresence not imply he is everywhere and in all things regardless of whether those things believe in any God or not?
If God is everywhere he/it would be in all good things and all bad things.
If it was not, it would not be omnipresent.

As for any "devil" being called to one faith. Does not God call ALL and desire all to be saved? All would include the devil would it not?

Jesus did after all die in the devils place, did he not?

I left out another point I wanted to adress that makes Paul's view of gods power and presence over all being curious. It is the question of Paul's statement that god cannot tell a lie. In Titus (a disputed Pauline writing) but also in Hebews (which is not disputed). It is clear that Paul believes that god is incapable of telling a lie. Hebrews 6:18 "God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged." If god can't tell a lie then doesn't this call into question his own power over himself. This does not address your topic of omnipresence but I think Paul views them as one and the same, power and presence over all things. Speaking to the issue of lying.... Jesus states that the devil is a lair and cannot be trusted which can be used to dismiss the passage in Luke I quoted earlier, but it is an interesting point none the less.

It is the same kind of paradox as the liar paradox. If a liar admits to being a liar, is he telling a lie or telling the truth?
Google " Liar paradox" if you are unfamiliar with it.
Light creates darkness and also destroys it at the same time.
Therefore it is not a lie for Light/God to admit to creating Darkness/Evil.
Light can and does create and destroy darkness. Darkness cannot create or destroy itself. Light has all power over darkness and can become darkness itself simply by destroying itself or removing itself.
That is the whole TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH in spite of appearing to be a lie from a certain perspective. When you manage to see the WHOLE picture you can see how the TRUTH/ LIGHT can appear to be a lie/ darkness yet not be a lie/ darkness at the same time.

Darkness and Light are simply opposite strengths of Light or varying strengths of Light.
The supernatural devil character does not exist and neither does the supernatural God character. Both are an anthropomorphism of reality itself which contains all opposites and can appear to be self contradictory but in the big picture is not self contradictory at all but is rather a self sustaining paradox without beginning or end which is always beginning and ending at the same time.

The ancient bible authors did an excellent job of making stories out of this paradox by personifying the opposite aspects of Life/ Light/ Truth, etc. The writing is simply genius in my opinion.
Skyangel
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7/4/2015 6:13:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/4/2015 5:12:10 AM, sword wrote:
At 7/3/2015 10:14:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Hi Brad,
I understand your invisible programmer is outside the program of your mind and not in it.
How do you explain the scripture which claims he is in ALL if he is not in his own program?

His thoughts are in ALL His creation because His creation is His thoughts spoken into waves where all visible and invisible experiences exist according to His program called Eternal Life. This program will give us life experiences forever.

"The devil" is just a label humans have placed on a concept of evil in order to personify it.
They did the same with the label "God".
The titles are simply an anthropomorphism of good and evil.

You lack the knowledge to understand what the tree of the knowledge of good and evil means. Good and evil are not contrasts of who God and Satan is. Good doesn't mean God and Evil doesn't mean Satan. Good and Evil make up this world, which is also known as Lucifer, Satan, the Devil, the Wicked One, etc.

Human thoughts come from humans minds not from any supernatural character or programmer outside of the human mind. : :

All our thoughts come from God's creation which is nothing but invisible waves. These waves have to be converted into our written and spoken languages , visible bodies with senses and visible objects to look at, etc.

No invisible programmer is forcing you to do anything Brad.
You force yourself to do what you do.
No one but you is responsible for your words and actions. : :

You have never known our Creator or the power He has to force Brad to do exactly as He planned for him to do and say.

You are doing and saying exactly as God planned it but you don't realize that. That's how perfectly he made us.

You are always right in your own eyes Brad.
So am I.
Feel free to believe or disbelieve your own mind.
Also feel free to understand mine or not any time you feel like it.
I understand yours.
Saint_of_Me
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7/4/2015 6:41:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/3/2015 9:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Discuss Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


How do you interpret it?
Is God an invisible supernatural character or something else?

Is God the Father of the devil, all that is evil and all that humans judge as bad and wrong?
If not, how can God be the Father of all?

Is God in and through the devil?
If not how can God be in and through all?

Yah-Yah used to be SATAN'S boss.

But then ol' Luce got fed-up with his bullying and mass-murdering of Man--and of women and children, too, of course--so He Bailed. (The bible, with its agenda, says He was banished, bu this is only of the bible's many lies)>

So...SATAN left to, well, in modern parlance, to "Begin his own Upstart Corporation." LOL---which is of course The World Today as We Know It.

Leaving Yah-Yah to sit up in heaven and fume about being ousted of his former Control, wondering where it all went wrong.

Thanks!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.