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Why do Jews reject Jesus as the messiah?

Skepticalone
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7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
smelisox
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7/6/2015 11:56:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hit it, wikipedia:

"Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because: Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations."
Skepticalone
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7/6/2015 12:47:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 11:56:58 AM, smelisox wrote:
Hit it, wikipedia:

"Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because: Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations."

Yes, tell me something I don't know, such as which messianic prophecies Jesus did not fulfill. Which personal qualifications of the messiah did Jesus fail to meet? Which verses in the Bible are mistranslations? Anyone can quote the low hanging fruit of wiki. Are you able to bring anything substantial to this discussion?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
smelisox
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7/6/2015 12:51:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
They believe that since to qualify as a prophet you must follow WITHOUT question the word of God. They cannot contradict the laws of the old testament. Jesus tried to change that, so he's not a messiah. Neither is he the son of God in their opinion, so he is a false messiah.
annanicole
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7/6/2015 12:53:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

I would be interested in seeing that as well. I might suggest as a starting point Isa 53.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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7/6/2015 1:01:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 12:51:56 PM, smelisox wrote:
They believe that since to qualify as a prophet you must follow WITHOUT question the word of God. They cannot contradict the laws of the old testament. Jesus tried to change that, so he's not a messiah. Neither is he the son of God in their opinion, so he is a false messiah.

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt ... "

Jer 31: 31

I do not know how Jews interpret this passage, but I'd be interested in finding out.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Serato
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7/6/2015 8:29:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I had this debate several years ago with an administer of a similar debate site. He is Jewish and rejects Jesus because if I recall correctly, he was expecting a Messiah to be ruthless. He said the Messiah is expected to return with a sword.
Saint_of_Me
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7/6/2015 9:53:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

Well, hell. (see what I did there? LOL) This is one are where I agree with Jewish and Hebrew Theology. That the man known as Yehsua of Nazareth was NOT divine, or certainly any sort of Messiah. ("Mesiach" from the Hebrew).

He was merely a fully human, mortal, flawed teacher and philosopher. And a political insurrectionist. Which is what got him killed, to be honest. And..do not ever forget, especially you anti-semites: Jesus was most certainly Jewish.

He belongs in the pantheon of great teachers of history. With guys like Lao Tzu and Siddartha Gautama and Ghandi. That's about it.

Also,, the Jews of course wanted more of a Battle leader! Somebody more ferocious who would lead them to victory in a Rebellion against their Roman Oppressors. Not some "turn the other cheek" milquetoast.

The Jews? They wanted another David. So as to slay the Roman "goliath."
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
celestialtorahteacher
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7/6/2015 10:36:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Taurowet

Judah priests were obsessive liars who stole the Torah concept from Egyptian Taurowet theology as well as much from the Pyramid Texts. Because the Celestial Torah was based on Taurowet theology given a Jewish and not Egyptian interpretation, Judah priests tried to cover up the Egyptian origin in their earthly torah substitute and of course by dipping into deceit they deceived themselves and got the Torah's Messiah qualifications completely reversed, putting the Warrior King David type as Messiah while the Celestial Torah demands a Sage King Christ type to follow the Humanitarian Archetype God wants us all to follow- to become humane beings ourselves instead of merely human beings.

Judah priests used Taurowet derived Torah theology to promote Jewish tribal nationalism instead of for universal religious guidance and so they lied to Jews and the world in making claim to a Torah that they didn't originate or even understand.

I am Jewish Christian and I teach Celestial Torah Christianity that restores the proper Messiah as Humanitarian from the spiritual misdirection of Judah priests looking for a Warrior King to kick butt against Gentiles whose property in every sense even including religions, Jewish priests coveted as rabbis still do, promoting their new theft of Palestine.
dee-em
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7/7/2015 12:15:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

Discaimer. I'm not Jewish.

The Jews never accepted Jesus as the Messiah because they never saw him. They were only told about this Jesus by Christians long after his alleged life and times. Of course they laughed. At first.
12_13
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7/7/2015 9:34:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 12:51:56 PM, smelisox wrote:
They cannot contradict the laws of the old testament. Jesus tried to change that, so he's not a messiah.

That is sad misunderstanding. And sad is also that in many cases it is not allowed to correct that misunderstanding.
UniversalTheologian
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7/7/2015 9:39:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The name "Jesus" means "God Saves". The divine aspect of Jesus is very important.

In the epistles, emphasis is always placed on the "name" of Jesus.

Part of the revelation of Jesus Christ is that the anointed savior of the Jewish people and everything else is not a man, but God.

God is not a man, and though many Christians appear to worship a man as God, this is an apostasy that was predicted several times in the New Testament.

To worship the man Jesus as God is actually an anti-Christ. To understand the mystery of what it meant when Jesus said, "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me, and I in you." is to better get what is really going on. The Upanishads of Hindu scripture help make this mystery easier to grasp in my opinion.

Sincerity of Faith is the Holy Spirit that leads into All Truth. The Truth will set you free. These are not empty words.

But yeah, one of the main stumbling blocks to a Jew admitting Jesus as the messiah is that it is too misleading. Most Christians don't understand their religion and are really pagans, or worshipers of creation rather than the uncreated.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
TheWORDisLIFE
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7/8/2015 12:48:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

1. They are not the real Biblical Israelites

2. They don't understand what the word "virgin" means

3. The New Testament refers to them as the synagogue of Satan (Revelation 2:9; Revelation 3:9)

The Bible only belongs to the Israelites (African-Americans, Hispanis & Native Americans), the children of the Transatlantic Slave Trade.
Nicoszon_the_Great
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7/8/2015 12:53:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 12:48:00 PM, TheWORDisLIFE wrote:
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

1. They are not the real Biblical Israelites

2. They don't understand what the word "virgin" means

3. The New Testament refers to them as the synagogue of Satan (Revelation 2:9; Revelation 3:9)

The Bible only belongs to the Israelites (African-Americans, Hispanis & Native Americans), the children of the Transatlantic Slave Trade.

Synagogue of Satan is now officially my metal band, calling all people with musical talent to make this legit
switham
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7/9/2015 6:24:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

Due to the fact that explaining anything to you from a biblical point of view about your question like you want someone to do for you is exhausting, I will simply skip all of the fluff talk and explain why Jews do not recognize Jesus as the "messiah", from a common sense point of view.

Simply put, the whole Jewish idea was misinterpreted from translation to form of reading and study. When you begin to understand that you will understand why Jesus is not the messiah.

You will then understand alot of other things, after.
dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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7/9/2015 6:47:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 12:53:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

I would be interested in seeing that as well. I might suggest as a starting point Isa 53.

This is what Christians would have us believe. That the Jewish prophets wrote about a Messiah who, instead of coming to deliver them from bondage, would found a new religion which would blame the Jewish people for the death of their saviour. To add insult to injury, the new religion would oppress and persecute adherents of Judaism. In other words, God betrayed the Jewish prophets by using them to destroy their own religion based on worshipping him! They would have us believe that Mary, when informed she was going to have a son with God, said "oh goody" even though it went against every article of her Jewish faith.

The truth is much simpler. The early Christians took the Greek Septuagint and just borrowed as much as they could to fabricate the story of Jesus. Even a cursory examination of the gospels shows the extent of this borrowing. It is retro-fitted prophecy, inventing a man and events which meshed with passages in the OT. No supernatural explanation is needed, just a sordid case of blatant plagiarism. If I were Jewish I would be suing for copyright violation.
Illegalcombatant
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7/9/2015 7:50:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 12:47:42 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 7/6/2015 11:56:58 AM, smelisox wrote:
Hit it, wikipedia:

"Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because: Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations."

Yes, tell me something I don't know, such as which messianic prophecies Jesus did not fulfill. Which personal qualifications of the messiah did Jesus fail to meet? Which verses in the Bible are mistranslations? Anyone can quote the low hanging fruit of wiki. Are you able to bring anything substantial to this discussion?

Going off the top of my head a part of messianic prophecy I think it is/was envisioned by the jews of the messiah been a conquer king who would lead military conquest to over throw the gentile oppressors.

Back in Jesus day that would be the romans. Since Jesus or anyone else for that matter has not done such a thing ergo they Jesus or anyone else is reject as being the messiah.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
annanicole
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7/9/2015 8:15:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/9/2015 6:47:26 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/6/2015 12:53:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

I would be interested in seeing that as well. I might suggest as a starting point Isa 53.

This is what Christians would have us believe. That the Jewish prophets wrote about a Messiah who, instead of coming to deliver them from bondage, would found a new religion which would blame the Jewish people for the death of their saviour. To add insult to injury, the new religion would oppress and persecute adherents of Judaism. In other words, God betrayed the Jewish prophets by using them to destroy their own religion based on worshipping him! They would have us believe that Mary, when informed she was going to have a son with God, said "oh goody" even though it went against every article of her Jewish faith.

The truth is much simpler. The early Christians took the Greek Septuagint

Well, since the early Christians were (1) Jewish and (2) Greek-speaking, I suppose the "Greek Septuagint" (which was actually just the Septuagint, since the "Greek Septuagint" was the only make and model in existence).

The Messiah DID come to deliver them from bondage. The only problem was that the bondage under consideration was not a dominating governmental system: such a deliverance is a little too trite. Its main thrust is that a Messiah would come, and the Jewish people would rise up, and this Messiah would lead them to overthrow Roman rule over the Jews. Yet the Jews were not mistaken about the timing. They knew that the Messiah was anticipated during the 4th period of domination (beginning the count from Babylonian). I have wondered what new interpretation the Jews placed on Dan 2 because, according to them, the 4th ruling kingdom came and went by about 475 AD - and no Messiah appeared.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
dee-em
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7/9/2015 8:32:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/9/2015 8:15:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/9/2015 6:47:26 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/6/2015 12:53:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

I would be interested in seeing that as well. I might suggest as a starting point Isa 53.

This is what Christians would have us believe. That the Jewish prophets wrote about a Messiah who, instead of coming to deliver them from bondage, would found a new religion which would blame the Jewish people for the death of their saviour. To add insult to injury, the new religion would oppress and persecute adherents of Judaism. In other words, God betrayed the Jewish prophets by using them to destroy their own religion based on worshipping him! They would have us believe that Mary, when informed she was going to have a son with God, said "oh goody" even though it went against every article of her Jewish faith.

The truth is much simpler. The early Christians took the Greek Septuagint

Well, since the early Christians were (1) Jewish and (2) Greek-speaking, I suppose the "Greek Septuagint" (which was actually just the Septuagint, since the "Greek Septuagint" was the only make and model in existence).

Point taken. I just wanted to be clear because some of the strongest evidence that this 'borrowing' occurred is in the mistranslations from the Hebrew into the Greek in the creation of the Septuagint. The gospel writers, using the Greek, made a few howlers (eg. Jesus being born to a virgin). I could cite others if you wanted.

The Messiah DID come to deliver them from bondage.

That's a strange thing to say when this alleged Jesus came and went, and then the Romans sacked Jerusalem destroying the Temple and resulting in the Jewish diaspora. You call it delivering from bondage. I call it an unmitigated disaster for the Jewish people.

The only problem was that the bondage under consideration was not a dominating governmental system: such a deliverance is a little too trite. Its main thrust is that a Messiah would come, and the Jewish people would rise up, and this Messiah would lead them to overthrow Roman rule over the Jews. Yet the Jews were not mistaken about the timing. They knew that the Messiah was anticipated during the 4th period of domination (beginning the count from Babylonian). I have wondered what new interpretation the Jews placed on Dan 2 because, according to them, the 4th ruling kingdom came and went by about 475 AD - and no Messiah appeared.

I'll let someone more knowledgeable in Jewish history and religion answer that. It has little relevance to anything I said.
annanicole
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7/9/2015 8:48:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/9/2015 8:32:54 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/9/2015 8:15:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/9/2015 6:47:26 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/6/2015 12:53:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

I would be interested in seeing that as well. I might suggest as a starting point Isa 53.

This is what Christians would have us believe. That the Jewish prophets wrote about a Messiah who, instead of coming to deliver them from bondage, would found a new religion which would blame the Jewish people for the death of their saviour. To add insult to injury, the new religion would oppress and persecute adherents of Judaism. In other words, God betrayed the Jewish prophets by using them to destroy their own religion based on worshipping him! They would have us believe that Mary, when informed she was going to have a son with God, said "oh goody" even though it went against every article of her Jewish faith.

The truth is much simpler. The early Christians took the Greek Septuagint

Well, since the early Christians were (1) Jewish and (2) Greek-speaking, I suppose the "Greek Septuagint" (which was actually just the Septuagint, since the "Greek Septuagint" was the only make and model in existence).

Point taken. I just wanted to be clear because some of the strongest evidence that this 'borrowing' occurred is in the mistranslations from the Hebrew into the Greek in the creation of the Septuagint. The gospel writers, using the Greek, made a few howlers (eg. Jesus being born to a virgin). I could cite others if you wanted.

Thus, as you point out, the Jews were actually too ignorant to translate their own scriptures.

The Messiah DID come to deliver them from bondage.

That's a strange thing to say when this alleged Jesus came and went, and then the Romans sacked Jerusalem destroying the Temple and resulting in the Jewish diaspora. You call it delivering from bondage. I call it an unmitigated disaster for the Jewish people.

Jerusalem had been sacked and the Jewish people enslaved, with or without a Messiah.

The only problem was that the bondage under consideration was not a dominating governmental system: such a deliverance is a little too trite. Its main thrust is that a Messiah would come, and the Jewish people would rise up, and this Messiah would lead them to overthrow Roman rule over the Jews. Yet the Jews were not mistaken about the timing. They knew that the Messiah was anticipated during the 4th period of domination (beginning the count from Babylonian). I have wondered what new interpretation the Jews placed on Dan 2 because, according to them, the 4th ruling kingdom came and went by about 475 AD - and no Messiah appeared.

I'll let someone more knowledgeable in Jewish history and religion answer that. It has little relevance to anything I said.

Well, what you said actually has little relevance to the OP, anyhow. It was mostly a sounding board for you to level some attacks against Christianity.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
switham
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7/9/2015 9:12:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Point taken. I just wanted to be clear because some of the strongest evidence that this 'borrowing' occurred is in the mistranslations from the Hebrew into the Greek in the creation of the Septuagint. The gospel writers, using the Greek, made a few howlers (eg. Jesus being born to a virgin). I could cite others if you wanted.

Thus, as you point out, the Jews were actually too ignorant to translate their own scriptures.

I would say that the Jews might have not been as familiar with Greek as they were with Hebrew and that maybe that is where and why mistakes were made. Hebrew is very broad. Judaism seems to be a ongoing process, even today. Where on the other side of the fence, Christianity is and always was stationary and maybe that was the intention of the new testament writers, to have a stationary religion or religion that you did not have to work so hard to understand. No one really knows the intention of the new testament writers so I think we should focus on the OP's question.

OP, I advise you to look into Biblical commentary from Jews, to fully understand why none of the new testament theology makes reasonable sense. Tons of audio online, plenty of books floating around.
Skepticalone
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7/9/2015 9:25:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/9/2015 9:12:50 AM, switham wrote:
Point taken. I just wanted to be clear because some of the strongest evidence that this 'borrowing' occurred is in the mistranslations from the Hebrew into the Greek in the creation of the Septuagint. The gospel writers, using the Greek, made a few howlers (eg. Jesus being born to a virgin). I could cite others if you wanted.

Thus, as you point out, the Jews were actually too ignorant to translate their own scriptures.

I would say that the Jews might have not been as familiar with Greek as they were with Hebrew and that maybe that is where and why mistakes were made. Hebrew is very broad. Judaism seems to be a ongoing process, even today. Where on the other side of the fence, Christianity is and always was stationary and maybe that was the intention of the new testament writers, to have a stationary religion or religion that you did not have to work so hard to understand. No one really knows the intention of the new testament writers so I think we should focus on the OP's question.

OP, I advise you to look into Biblical commentary from Jews, to fully understand why none of the new testament theology makes reasonable sense. Tons of audio online, plenty of books floating around.

Thanks for the advice. I have done some research into this, but I wanted to know what the average Jew believed (Essentially, the 'common-man'). I'm not sure we have had any of the Jewish persuasion answer thus far though.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
annanicole
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7/9/2015 9:26:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/9/2015 9:12:50 AM, switham wrote:
Point taken. I just wanted to be clear because some of the strongest evidence that this 'borrowing' occurred is in the mistranslations from the Hebrew into the Greek in the creation of the Septuagint. The gospel writers, using the Greek, made a few howlers (eg. Jesus being born to a virgin). I could cite others if you wanted.

Thus, as you point out, the Jews were actually too ignorant to translate their own scriptures.

I would say that the Jews might have not been as familiar with Greek as they were with Hebrew and that maybe that is where and why mistakes were made. Hebrew is very broad. Judaism seems to be a ongoing process, even today.

It is an ongoing process because, for one reason, they were wrong about so many of their own prophesies. It's like, "Yes, we were wrong about our Messianic expectations, but Jesus did not fit the bill concerning our Messianic expectations. Therefore, Jesus was not the promised Messiah because the did not fulfill our Messianic expectations, which were incorrect in the first place. Now we have modified our erroneous interpretations, and He's STILL not the Messiah."

It would be one thing if, before 476 AD, a Jewish Messiah really did come and lead his people out from under Roman dominion. Then I guess I could at least say the Jews had a point. However, nothing happened. That's why I find the OP interesting, although I haven't seen many Jews on here to answer it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
dee-em
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7/9/2015 9:36:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/9/2015 8:48:39 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/9/2015 8:32:54 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/9/2015 8:15:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/9/2015 6:47:26 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/6/2015 12:53:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

I would be interested in seeing that as well. I might suggest as a starting point Isa 53.

This is what Christians would have us believe. That the Jewish prophets wrote about a Messiah who, instead of coming to deliver them from bondage, would found a new religion which would blame the Jewish people for the death of their saviour. To add insult to injury, the new religion would oppress and persecute adherents of Judaism. In other words, God betrayed the Jewish prophets by using them to destroy their own religion based on worshipping him! They would have us believe that Mary, when informed she was going to have a son with God, said "oh goody" even though it went against every article of her Jewish faith.

The truth is much simpler. The early Christians took the Greek Septuagint

Well, since the early Christians were (1) Jewish and (2) Greek-speaking, I suppose the "Greek Septuagint" (which was actually just the Septuagint, since the "Greek Septuagint" was the only make and model in existence).

Point taken. I just wanted to be clear because some of the strongest evidence that this 'borrowing' occurred is in the mistranslations from the Hebrew into the Greek in the creation of the Septuagint. The gospel writers, using the Greek, made a few howlers (eg. Jesus being born to a virgin). I could cite others if you wanted.

Thus, as you point out, the Jews were actually too ignorant to translate their own scriptures.

That's unkind and not what I was saying at all. Any translation from one language to another is problematic. Firstly, there is human error which is unavoidable, not because of ignorance, but because humans sometimes make mistakes. Secondly, there are often words and concepts lacking in one language compared to another. Choices have to be made. Thirdly, there are idioms in Hebrew which are difficult, if not impossible, to convey in any other language. The Christians had similar problems in translating the Bible from Greek to English. That's why there are so many English translations around today.

The Messiah DID come to deliver them from bondage.

That's a strange thing to say when this alleged Jesus came and went, and then the Romans sacked Jerusalem destroying the Temple and resulting in the Jewish diaspora. You call it delivering from bondage. I call it an unmitigated disaster for the Jewish people.

Jerusalem had been sacked and the Jewish people enslaved, with or without a Messiah.

I think you missed my point. It directly relates to the OP.

The only problem was that the bondage under consideration was not a dominating governmental system: such a deliverance is a little too trite. Its main thrust is that a Messiah would come, and the Jewish people would rise up, and this Messiah would lead them to overthrow Roman rule over the Jews. Yet the Jews were not mistaken about the timing. They knew that the Messiah was anticipated during the 4th period of domination (beginning the count from Babylonian). I have wondered what new interpretation the Jews placed on Dan 2 because, according to them, the 4th ruling kingdom came and went by about 475 AD - and no Messiah appeared.

I'll let someone more knowledgeable in Jewish history and religion answer that. It has little relevance to anything I said.

Well, what you said actually has little relevance to the OP, anyhow. It was mostly a sounding board for you to level some attacks against Christianity.

That too. :-)
annanicole
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7/9/2015 9:59:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/9/2015 9:36:48 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/9/2015 8:48:39 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/9/2015 8:32:54 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/9/2015 8:15:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/9/2015 6:47:26 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/6/2015 12:53:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/6/2015 11:48:12 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
I would appreciate any of our Jewish members explaining why Jesus could not have been the messiah. Thank you in advance.

I would be interested in seeing that as well. I might suggest as a starting point Isa 53.

This is what Christians would have us believe. That the Jewish prophets wrote about a Messiah who, instead of coming to deliver them from bondage, would found a new religion which would blame the Jewish people for the death of their saviour. To add insult to injury, the new religion would oppress and persecute adherents of Judaism. In other words, God betrayed the Jewish prophets by using them to destroy their own religion based on worshipping him! They would have us believe that Mary, when informed she was going to have a son with God, said "oh goody" even though it went against every article of her Jewish faith.

The truth is much simpler. The early Christians took the Greek Septuagint

Well, since the early Christians were (1) Jewish and (2) Greek-speaking, I suppose the "Greek Septuagint" (which was actually just the Septuagint, since the "Greek Septuagint" was the only make and model in existence).

Point taken. I just wanted to be clear because some of the strongest evidence that this 'borrowing' occurred is in the mistranslations from the Hebrew into the Greek in the creation of the Septuagint. The gospel writers, using the Greek, made a few howlers (eg. Jesus being born to a virgin). I could cite others if you wanted.

Thus, as you point out, the Jews were actually too ignorant to translate their own scriptures.

That's unkind and not what I was saying at all. Any translation from one language to another is problematic. Firstly, there is human error which is unavoidable, not because of ignorance, but because humans sometimes make mistakes. Secondly, there are often words and concepts lacking in one language compared to another. Choices have to be made. Thirdly, there are idioms in Hebrew which are difficult, if not impossible, to convey in any other language. The Christians had similar problems in translating the Bible from Greek to English. That's why there are so many English translations around today.

That doesn't much sound like "howlers". When a person doesn't know a virgin from a young woman, then that's pure, old-fashioned ignorance, not only of translation, but of anatomy.

The Messiah DID come to deliver them from bondage.

That's a strange thing to say when this alleged Jesus came and went, and then the Romans sacked Jerusalem destroying the Temple and resulting in the Jewish diaspora. You call it delivering from bondage. I call it an unmitigated disaster for the Jewish people.

Jerusalem had been sacked and the Jewish people enslaved, with or without a Messiah.

I think you missed my point. It directly relates to the OP.

The only problem was that the bondage under consideration was not a dominating governmental system: such a deliverance is a little too trite. Its main thrust is that a Messiah would come, and the Jewish people would rise up, and this Messiah would lead them to overthrow Roman rule over the Jews. Yet the Jews were not mistaken about the timing. They knew that the Messiah was anticipated during the 4th period of domination (beginning the count from Babylonian). I have wondered what new interpretation the Jews placed on Dan 2 because, according to them, the 4th ruling kingdom came and went by about 475 AD - and no Messiah appeared.

I'll let someone more knowledgeable in Jewish history and religion answer that. It has little relevance to anything I said.

Well, what you said actually has little relevance to the OP, anyhow. It was mostly a sounding board for you to level some attacks against Christianity.

That too. :-)

99% of the "that, too" - and 1% of "OP"
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
switham
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7/9/2015 12:49:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Thanks for the advice. I have done some research into this, but I wanted to know what the average Jew believed (Essentially, the 'common-man'). I'm not sure we have had any of the Jewish persuasion answer thus far though.

I am a average Jew. But, if you are looking for a general belief concerning Jesus then you should go here: https://outreachjudaism.org...
A more simple explanation why average Jews do not believe that Jesus is the messiah:https://outreachjudaism.org...

For Isaiah 53: https://outreachjudaism.org...

For the Septuagint thing: https://outreachjudaism.org...

As far as the virgin thing goes: https://outreachjudaism.org...

That will help you understand more. That is the best I can do. You are looking for a average Jewish opinion about why Jesus is not the messiah and I can only go as far as pointing you towards the general conclusion. Keep in mind that being Jewish is not everyone adhering to the same beliefs. Everyone has their own understanding and views toward a variety of things, we have managed to hold onto the core principles that make up who we are.
annanicole
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7/9/2015 1:47:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/9/2015 12:49:30 PM, switham wrote:
Thanks for the advice. I have done some research into this, but I wanted to know what the average Jew believed (Essentially, the 'common-man'). I'm not sure we have had any of the Jewish persuasion answer thus far though.

I am a average Jew. But, if you are looking for a general belief concerning Jesus then you should go here: https://outreachjudaism.org...
A more simple explanation why average Jews do not believe that Jesus is the messiah:https://outreachjudaism.org...

For Isaiah 53: https://outreachjudaism.org...

From the article on Isa 53 that you cited:

"Therefore, Isaiah 53:8 concludes with their stunning confession, 'for the transgressions of my people [the gentile nations] they [the Jews]were stricken.' The fact that the servant is spoken of in the third person, plural lamo illustrates beyond doubt that the servant is a nation rather than a single individual."

Yet from the Jewish Virtual Library, I note that Isa 53: 8 read,

"He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

"After forcible arrest and sentencing, he was taken away; and none of his generation protested his being cut off from the land of the living for the crimes of my people, who deserved the punishment themselves."

http://www.biblestudytools.com...

"By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due."

http://www.breslov.com...

In fact, I haven't yet found a translation (I quit looking after three) that places a third person plural construction on that passage. Maybe it's there, but their own translations are not confirmation of it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
switham
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7/9/2015 2:13:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Isaiah 53 explains the suffering of the Jews, thats it. If you want to believe something else then go ahead. But, if you want to understand it for what it really is then I suggest you approach the bible with reason. Jesus wont punish you for not thinking about him for awhile if you decide to let go of your biased point of view and rationally assess the text.
Skepticalone
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7/9/2015 2:41:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/9/2015 12:49:30 PM, switham wrote:
Thanks for the advice. I have done some research into this, but I wanted to know what the average Jew believed (Essentially, the 'common-man'). I'm not sure we have had any of the Jewish persuasion answer thus far though.

I am a average Jew. But, if you are looking for a general belief concerning Jesus then you should go here: https://outreachjudaism.org...
A more simple explanation why average Jews do not believe that Jesus is the messiah:https://outreachjudaism.org...

For Isaiah 53: https://outreachjudaism.org...

For the Septuagint thing: https://outreachjudaism.org...

As far as the virgin thing goes: https://outreachjudaism.org...

That will help you understand more. That is the best I can do. You are looking for a average Jewish opinion about why Jesus is not the messiah and I can only go as far as pointing you towards the general conclusion. Keep in mind that being Jewish is not everyone adhering to the same beliefs. Everyone has their own understanding and views toward a variety of things, we have managed to hold onto the core principles that make up who we are.

Okay, thanks! You should update your profile so we know your beliefs!
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