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Argument for God from Time

Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

Please rip to shreds, note it is not an argument for Yahweh, Jesus, Allah or Zeus. It is an argument for some form of God with certain similar qualities. I don't care how brutal you are as I am generally of the opinion that all arguments for God are at best weak.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mongeese
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8/17/2010 9:47:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Basically, you're arguing that all possible things have occured. Interesting, but it doesn't mean that all possible things currently exist. And there's a huge gap between a somewhat-omniscient, somewhat-omnipotent being and God. Not to mention that eternal time is impossible.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/17/2010 10:11:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 9:47:34 AM, mongeese wrote:
Basically, you're arguing that all possible things have occured. Interesting, but it doesn't mean that all possible things currently exist. And there's a huge gap between a somewhat-omniscient, somewhat-omnipotent being and God. Not to mention that eternal time is impossible.

An omniscient being having existed is likely to still exist as various methods of immortality would be within it's knowledge. How is finite time possible?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mattrodstrom
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8/17/2010 10:15:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 10:11:43 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:47:34 AM, mongeese wrote:
Basically, you're arguing that all possible things have occured. Interesting, but it doesn't mean that all possible things currently exist. And there's a huge gap between a somewhat-omniscient, somewhat-omnipotent being and God. Not to mention that eternal time is impossible.

An omniscient being having existed is likely to still exist as various methods of immortality would be within it's knowledge. How is finite time possible?

time is an illusion.

a bad extrapolation.

we see things and assume "time" and "space"... meanwhile the two are not distinct things... Space-Time

time doesn't exist.

your intuitions about it are null... b/c it itself is a false intuition

for what reason is Space-Time infinite in such a way that it Necessarily encompasses all logically possible things???
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/17/2010 11:02:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 10:15:52 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/17/2010 10:11:43 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:47:34 AM, mongeese wrote:
Basically, you're arguing that all possible things have occured. Interesting, but it doesn't mean that all possible things currently exist. And there's a huge gap between a somewhat-omniscient, somewhat-omnipotent being and God. Not to mention that eternal time is impossible.

An omniscient being having existed is likely to still exist as various methods of immortality would be within it's knowledge. How is finite time possible?

time is an illusion.

I was waiting for someone to say that.


a bad extrapolation.

we see things and assume "time" and "space"... meanwhile the two are not distinct things... Space-Time

time doesn't exist.

your intuitions about it are null... b/c it itself is a false intuition

for what reason is Space-Time infinite in such a way that it Necessarily encompasses all logically possible things???

The original post addresses this and awnsers your query...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cody_Franklin
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8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Please rip to shreds, note it is not an argument for Yahweh, Jesus, Allah or Zeus. It is an argument for some form of God with certain similar qualities. I don't care how brutal you are as I am generally of the opinion that all arguments for God are at best weak.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/17/2010 11:08:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:06:25 AM, badger wrote:
who's to say that space-time precedes the big bang though?

Isn't that just the problem of something from nothing.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mongeese
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8/17/2010 11:08:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 10:11:43 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/17/2010 9:47:34 AM, mongeese wrote:
Basically, you're arguing that all possible things have occured. Interesting, but it doesn't mean that all possible things currently exist. And there's a huge gap between a somewhat-omniscient, somewhat-omnipotent being and God. Not to mention that eternal time is impossible.

An omniscient being having existed is likely to still exist as various methods of immortality would be within it's knowledge.
The argument then assumes that immortality is possible.

How is finite time possible?
It's not that finite time is possible, so much that eternal time is impossible.
mongeese
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8/17/2010 11:09:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cody, you missed the argument that all probabilities have occured, and therefore, appeal to probability is no longer a fallacy.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/17/2010 11:11:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:02:11 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
The original post addresses this and awnsers your query...

how/where's that?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
badger
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8/17/2010 11:13:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
and anyway, this isn't god you're talking about.. you're talking about a product of space-time... not a creator, which is what i thought you were looking for.
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Cody_Franklin
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8/17/2010 11:14:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:09:37 AM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cody, you missed the argument that all probabilities have occured, and therefore, appeal to probability is no longer a fallacy.

The argument that all probabilities must have occurred is itself a form of the fallacy.
Cody_Franklin
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8/17/2010 11:15:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:14:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:09:37 AM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cody, you missed the argument that all probabilities have occured, and therefore, appeal to probability is no longer a fallacy.

The argument that all probabilities must have occurred is itself a form of the fallacy.

Additionally, that appeal to probability rests on a huge non sequitur: "time is infinite, therefore all probabilities must have occurred" <-- It doesn't quite follow.
badger
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8/17/2010 11:15:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:14:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:09:37 AM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cody, you missed the argument that all probabilities have occured, and therefore, appeal to probability is no longer a fallacy.

The argument that all probabilities must have occurred is itself a form of the fallacy.

given infinite time all probabilities will occur.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/17/2010 11:16:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:14:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:09:37 AM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cody, you missed the argument that all probabilities have occured, and therefore, appeal to probability is no longer a fallacy.

The argument that all probabilities must have occurred is itself a form of the fallacy.

he's saying given infinite time (and I guess infinite space'd help too) then all things are likely to occur...

more than likely.... DEFINITE.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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8/17/2010 11:17:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:16:12 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:14:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:09:37 AM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cody, you missed the argument that all probabilities have occured, and therefore, appeal to probability is no longer a fallacy.

The argument that all probabilities must have occurred is itself a form of the fallacy.

he's saying given infinite time (and I guess infinite space'd help too) then all things are likely to occur...

more than likely.... DEFINITE.

No, he's saying that all probabilities must occur as a consequence of infinite time.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/17/2010 11:18:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:17:12 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:16:12 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:14:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:09:37 AM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cody, you missed the argument that all probabilities have occured, and therefore, appeal to probability is no longer a fallacy.

The argument that all probabilities must have occurred is itself a form of the fallacy.

he's saying given infinite time (and I guess infinite space'd help too) then all things are likely to occur...

more than likely.... DEFINITE.

No, he's saying that all probabilities must occur as a consequence of infinite time.

they must.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/17/2010 11:19:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:18:09 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:17:12 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:16:12 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:14:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:09:37 AM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cody, you missed the argument that all probabilities have occured, and therefore, appeal to probability is no longer a fallacy.

The argument that all probabilities must have occurred is itself a form of the fallacy.

he's saying given infinite time (and I guess infinite space'd help too) then all things are likely to occur...

more than likely.... DEFINITE.

No, he's saying that all probabilities must occur as a consequence of infinite time.

they must.

well, if they had a probability of occuring within a given time.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/17/2010 11:20:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
i still don't understand why a near godly being is necessarily a possibility though... and this isn't god we're talking about.. just superman.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/17/2010 11:21:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:06:25 AM, badger wrote:
who's to say that space-time precedes the big bang though?

there's no "precedes" regarding space-time.

such things are applicable ONLY from a given location and assuming "time"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/17/2010 11:21:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:19:08 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:18:09 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:17:12 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:16:12 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:14:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:09:37 AM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cody, you missed the argument that all probabilities have occured, and therefore, appeal to probability is no longer a fallacy.

The argument that all probabilities must have occurred is itself a form of the fallacy.

he's saying given infinite time (and I guess infinite space'd help too) then all things are likely to occur...

more than likely.... DEFINITE.

No, he's saying that all probabilities must occur as a consequence of infinite time.

they must.

well, if they had a probability of occuring within a given time.

I concur with badger. It's math. If you roll a million sided die infinite times, it will eventually land on one. It will, however, never land on zero.

So, Cody, the proper way to counter this argument is to assert that the probability of such an entity existing is zero, or that time has not ran infinitely.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/17/2010 11:23:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.

Time is not a priori. Time is the value we put on movement.

2: Nothing can have preceded time.

Again, you treat time like a law of the universe. It's not.

3: Time has always existed and is infinite.

I agree, but that's not a universally accepted premise.

4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.

Infinite time =/= infinite probablity. You could have a tiny steel box and let it sit there for eternity, but that doesn't mean a giraffe is going to spring up, ever. Such an assertion defies the laws of nature.

5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.

Nope. Logical contradictions don't exist in reality. A square circle will never spring into existence even if given infinite time. Also, things of great complexity come about only by evolutionary means. You seem to imply that sometime, somewhere down the line, a God would spring into existence, however, God is the uncaused cause and does not evolve into being.

6: Such an entity therefore exists.

No.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/17/2010 11:23:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:21:21 AM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:19:08 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:18:09 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:17:12 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:16:12 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:14:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:09:37 AM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cody, you missed the argument that all probabilities have occured, and therefore, appeal to probability is no longer a fallacy.

The argument that all probabilities must have occurred is itself a form of the fallacy.

he's saying given infinite time (and I guess infinite space'd help too) then all things are likely to occur...

more than likely.... DEFINITE.

No, he's saying that all probabilities must occur as a consequence of infinite time.

they must.

well, if they had a probability of occuring within a given time.

I concur with badger. It's math. If you roll a million sided die infinite times, it will eventually land on one. It will, however, never land on zero.

So, Cody, the proper way to counter this argument is to assert that the probability of such an entity existing is zero, or that time has not ran infinitely.

lol.. i was honestly thinking of using a million sided dice analogy to try and explain it to him. weird.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/17/2010 11:24:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:23:19 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:21:21 AM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:19:08 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:18:09 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:17:12 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:16:12 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:14:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:09:37 AM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:08:19 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 8/17/2010 8:32:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
1: Nothing can occur or exist in the absence of time.
2: Nothing can have preceded time.
3: Time has always existed and is infinite.
4: As time is infinite all probabilities must have occured at some point.
5: A being of advanced knowledge and power (omniscient and omnipotent or close to it) is within the realms of probability.
6: Such an entity therefore exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cody, you missed the argument that all probabilities have occured, and therefore, appeal to probability is no longer a fallacy.

The argument that all probabilities must have occurred is itself a form of the fallacy.

he's saying given infinite time (and I guess infinite space'd help too) then all things are likely to occur...

more than likely.... DEFINITE.

No, he's saying that all probabilities must occur as a consequence of infinite time.

they must.

well, if they had a probability of occuring within a given time.

I concur with badger. It's math. If you roll a million sided die infinite times, it will eventually land on one. It will, however, never land on zero.

So, Cody, the proper way to counter this argument is to assert that the probability of such an entity existing is zero, or that time has not ran infinitely.

lol.. i was honestly thinking of using a million sided dice analogy to try and explain it to him. weird.

die* excuse me.
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badger
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8/17/2010 11:25:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:21:06 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/17/2010 11:06:25 AM, badger wrote:
who's to say that space-time precedes the big bang though?

there's no "precedes" regarding space-time.

such things are applicable ONLY from a given location and assuming "time"

i like it.. what i was trying to say though was that around 14 billion years of time isn't infinite time.. or space-time.. or whatever the fvck you want to call what makes me old.
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mongeese
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8/17/2010 11:26:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:23:16 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Infinite time =/= infinite probablity. You could have a tiny steel box and let it sit there for eternity, but that doesn't mean a giraffe is going to spring up, ever. Such an assertion defies the laws of nature.

Well, if the universe only contains a steel box, and there is no movement, then the box will just sit there for eternity, and nothing will happen ever again. In this universe, the steel box is the only probability there is. Throw in a big bang and over a hundred elements and a bazillion atoms to represent them, and you have possibilities almost unlimited.
GeoLaureate8
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8/17/2010 11:31:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Also, if the being is not omnipotent or omniscient, then you are merely arguing for an advanced extraterrestrial, not God.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/17/2010 11:31:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/17/2010 11:08:50 AM, badger wrote:
and where's your proof for number 5?

Are you arguing that there is zero possibility that something with more knowledge and power than any human being exists?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.