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Being honest with Adam and Eve

FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die the day they ate it, that was many many years later. That plays fast and loose with intents of words, to me, that variety of verbiage means "yer gonna be dead in 24 hours". Remember, this is a book of the Bible in which people contest that indeed, a literal 7 days all things were created, so trying to squeak funny little plays on words to me seems like... well, its just horribly inconvenient to admit that God sort of um... "bent the truth" a little.

Anyways, back to the point at hand, if God wanted to be completely honest with Adam and Eve, you know, as His all good nature is supposed to demand (in as much as God, depending upon whom you ask can't lie) wouldn't He be more inclined to say:
"for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely kill you", or if being generous, "for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely start to kill you, and be done with it eventually"?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Cryo
Posts: 202
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7/8/2015 2:07:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die the day they ate it, that was many many years later. That plays fast and loose with intents of words, to me, that variety of verbiage means "yer gonna be dead in 24 hours". Remember, this is a book of the Bible in which people contest that indeed, a literal 7 days all things were created, so trying to squeak funny little plays on words to me seems like... well, its just horribly inconvenient to admit that God sort of um... "bent the truth" a little.

Anyways, back to the point at hand, if God wanted to be completely honest with Adam and Eve, you know, as His all good nature is supposed to demand (in as much as God, depending upon whom you ask can't lie) wouldn't He be more inclined to say:
"for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely kill you", or if being generous, "for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely start to kill you, and be done with it eventually"?

Yeah I always thought the whole "you will surely die" thing, and then they don't die, was weird. What bothers me the most about that story is that they only learned of good and evil after eating the fruit. The implication is that before they ate the fruit, they couldn't have discerned what was a right action and what was a wrong one. So basically, God judged and punished them for doing the wrong thing, even though they didn't have the capacity to understand that it was wrong in the first place. Kind of a dick move.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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7/8/2015 3:06:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 2:07:19 AM, Cryo wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die the day they ate it, that was many many years later. That plays fast and loose with intents of words, to me, that variety of verbiage means "yer gonna be dead in 24 hours". Remember, this is a book of the Bible in which people contest that indeed, a literal 7 days all things were created, so trying to squeak funny little plays on words to me seems like... well, its just horribly inconvenient to admit that God sort of um... "bent the truth" a little.

Anyways, back to the point at hand, if God wanted to be completely honest with Adam and Eve, you know, as His all good nature is supposed to demand (in as much as God, depending upon whom you ask can't lie) wouldn't He be more inclined to say:
"for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely kill you", or if being generous, "for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely start to kill you, and be done with it eventually"?

Yeah I always thought the whole "you will surely die" thing, and then they don't die, was weird. What bothers me the most about that story is that they only learned of good and evil after eating the fruit. The implication is that before they ate the fruit, they couldn't have discerned what was a right action and what was a wrong one. So basically, God judged and punished them for doing the wrong thing, even though they didn't have the capacity to understand that it was wrong in the first place. Kind of a dick move.

Ooo. Good call. How could they have known they were being lied to without specific knowledge of such a thing.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/8/2015 7:10:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die the day they ate it, that was many many years later. That plays fast and loose with intents of words, to me, that variety of verbiage means "yer gonna be dead in 24 hours". Remember, this is a book of the Bible in which people contest that indeed, a literal 7 days all things were created, so trying to squeak funny little plays on words to me seems like... well, its just horribly inconvenient to admit that God sort of um... "bent the truth" a little.

Anyways, back to the point at hand, if God wanted to be completely honest with Adam and Eve, you know, as His all good nature is supposed to demand (in as much as God, depending upon whom you ask can't lie) wouldn't He be more inclined to say:
"for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely kill you", or if being generous, "for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely start to kill you, and be done with it eventually"?

You need to remember that, as scripture points out, a day may be as a thousand years to Jehovah and a thousand years as a day, so the fact that Adam and Eve "began to die" immediately, but did also die within the thousand year period that can represent a day to Jehovah.

The problem is, of course that we do not know the exact words Jehovah used to Adam and Eve, or how accurately Adam chose to understand what jehovah meant by them. All to often people take the meaning they want, or expect to find, with no reference whatever to what the one who uses that word may wish it to mean.

That is especially common in the world of scripture.

For isntance, what does teh phrase "know good and bad" actually mean?

Does it mean that they would know which is good and which bad?

Or simply that they will come to know the effects good and bad can have on them?

To me the latter is the more logical.

Why?

Well mankind's lack of consensus on what is moral and what is not proves beyond any doubt that we have not learned to tell what is good and what is bad, but we most definitely feel the results of both in our lives.

By their disobedience, and most especially by Adam's lack of faith in, or trust in, both of which are inextricable related, Jehovah we have now inherited the effects of good and bad from him, sin was most definitely brought into the world by Adam's rebellion.

We do not know how Jehovah would have sorted the problem, had Adam trusted in him, btu Abraham's example should give us faith that he would have found a way through it, though Eve would still have had a price to pay, just not Adam and humanity as a whole.

Our lives every day prove that the sins of the father are often passed down to the sons, from generation to generation because the vast majority even today are rebelling against Jehovah, and still dying because of it.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/8/2015 7:21:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die the day they ate it, that was many many years later. That plays fast and loose with intents of words, to me, that variety of verbiage means "yer gonna be dead in 24 hours". Remember, this is a book of the Bible in which people contest that indeed, a literal 7 days all things were created, so trying to squeak funny little plays on words to me seems like... well, its just horribly inconvenient to admit that God sort of um... "bent the truth" a little.

Anyways, back to the point at hand, if God wanted to be completely honest with Adam and Eve, you know, as His all good nature is supposed to demand (in as much as God, depending upon whom you ask can't lie) wouldn't He be more inclined to say:
"for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely kill you", or if being generous, "for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely start to kill you, and be done with it eventually"?

Even when I read this as a kid I knew it didn't mean God was going to kill their flesh bodies. Remember everything in scriptures speaks of two natures, flesh and spirit and obviously, even when I was a kid I knew God meant spiritually speaking, not physically. Why would God (probably knowing) Adam would fall create all this paradise just to kill Adam and his wife a little later lol? does that make sense?
Spiritual death not material death, they lost what they had with God spiritually.

It's another spiritual principle hid behind imagery my friend, Jesus realigns this in John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/8/2015 8:13:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 7:21:34 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die the day they ate it, that was many many years later. That plays fast and loose with intents of words, to me, that variety of verbiage means "yer gonna be dead in 24 hours". Remember, this is a book of the Bible in which people contest that indeed, a literal 7 days all things were created, so trying to squeak funny little plays on words to me seems like... well, its just horribly inconvenient to admit that God sort of um... "bent the truth" a little.

Anyways, back to the point at hand, if God wanted to be completely honest with Adam and Eve, you know, as His all good nature is supposed to demand (in as much as God, depending upon whom you ask can't lie) wouldn't He be more inclined to say:
"for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely kill you", or if being generous, "for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely start to kill you, and be done with it eventually"?

Even when I read this as a kid I knew it didn't mean God was going to kill their flesh bodies. Remember everything in scriptures speaks of two natures, flesh and spirit and obviously, even when I was a kid I knew God meant spiritually speaking, not physically. Why would God (probably knowing) Adam would fall create all this paradise just to kill Adam and his wife a little later lol? does that make sense?

God did not know Adam would fall, and in fact he trusted him not to, though the possibility was always there.

However no individual is destined to succeed or fail, that all depends on how they use the free will Jehovah gave them.

However, "rebirth" takes many forms, and is, in effect, what baptism symbolises, dying to your previous life, and being "reborn" to a life of servitude to Christ, with the prospect of eternal life on a paradise earth in view for those remain faithful to the end of their lives.

For a few, the reward is different and, if they are judged worthy of being offered it, will give them the prospect of life as a spirit being, in heaven, ruling alongside Christ. Equally dependent on their remaining faithful to the end.

Spiritual death not material death, they lost what they had with God spiritually.


True, though that assumes they had it in the first place, though all are to be offered the opportunity to it. However mankind as a whole ahs been alienated from Jehovah since Adam's fall.

It's another spiritual principle hid behind imagery my friend, Jesus realigns this in John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

That is true, in the sense I explained above, in the case of both offered destinies.


4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Again, that is symbolised by baptism, death to our previous lives, "rebirth" to a new life of servitude to Christ, and thus to his father.

There is far more to being "Christian" in life, and not just in name, than most people are ever taught, unless they choose to listen to Jehovah's messengers, his Witnesses.
lucky59
Posts: 60
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7/8/2015 8:20:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 8:13:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/8/2015 7:21:34 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die the day they ate it, that was many many years later. That plays fast and loose with intents of words, to me, that variety of verbiage means "yer gonna be dead in 24 hours". Remember, this is a book of the Bible in which people contest that indeed, a literal 7 days all things were created, so trying to squeak funny little plays on words to me seems like... well, its just horribly inconvenient to admit that God sort of um... "bent the truth" a little.

Anyways, back to the point at hand, if God wanted to be completely honest with Adam and Eve, you know, as His all good nature is supposed to demand (in as much as God, depending upon whom you ask can't lie) wouldn't He be more inclined to say:
"for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely kill you", or if being generous, "for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely start to kill you, and be done with it eventually"?

Even when I read this as a kid I knew it didn't mean God was going to kill their flesh bodies. Remember everything in scriptures speaks of two natures, flesh and spirit and obviously, even when I was a kid I knew God meant spiritually speaking, not physically. Why would God (probably knowing) Adam would fall create all this paradise just to kill Adam and his wife a little later lol? does that make sense?

God did not know Adam would fall, and in fact he trusted him not to, though the possibility was always there.

Your God must be very stupid.

However no individual is destined to succeed or fail, that all depends on how they use the free will Jehovah gave them.

However, "rebirth" takes many forms, and is, in effect, what baptism symbolises, dying to your previous life, and being "reborn" to a life of servitude to Christ, with the prospect of eternal life on a paradise earth in view for those remain faithful to the end of their lives.

For a few, the reward is different and, if they are judged worthy of being offered it, will give them the prospect of life as a spirit being, in heaven, ruling alongside Christ. Equally dependent on their remaining faithful to the end.

Spiritual death not material death, they lost what they had with God spiritually.


True, though that assumes they had it in the first place, though all are to be offered the opportunity to it. However mankind as a whole ahs been alienated from Jehovah since Adam's fall.

It's another spiritual principle hid behind imagery my friend, Jesus realigns this in John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

That is true, in the sense I explained above, in the case of both offered destinies.


4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Again, that is symbolised by baptism, death to our previous lives, "rebirth" to a new life of servitude to Christ, and thus to his father.

There is far more to being "Christian" in life, and not just in name, than most people are ever taught, unless they choose to listen to Jehovah's messengers, his Witnesses.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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7/8/2015 8:27:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 8:13:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
God did not know Adam would fall,
This would be your dumbarse OMNISCIENT god.
You are seriously demented.
Yeah I know your stupid apologetics, how does he know that which he refuses to know dummy.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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7/8/2015 8:29:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 7:21:34 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Remember everything in scriptures speaks of two natures, flesh and spirit
Who says?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/8/2015 10:28:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 8:27:56 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/8/2015 8:13:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
God did not know Adam would fall,
This would be your dumbarse OMNISCIENT god.
You are seriously demented.
Yeah I know your stupid apologetics, how does he know that which he refuses to know dummy.

Not difficult to understand once you know.

Shame you know so little, except insult and obscenity.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/8/2015 10:33:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 8:20:11 AM, lucky59 wrote:
At 7/8/2015 8:13:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/8/2015 7:21:34 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die the day they ate it, that was many many years later. That plays fast and loose with intents of words, to me, that variety of verbiage means "yer gonna be dead in 24 hours". Remember, this is a book of the Bible in which people contest that indeed, a literal 7 days all things were created, so trying to squeak funny little plays on words to me seems like... well, its just horribly inconvenient to admit that God sort of um... "bent the truth" a little.

Anyways, back to the point at hand, if God wanted to be completely honest with Adam and Eve, you know, as His all good nature is supposed to demand (in as much as God, depending upon whom you ask can't lie) wouldn't He be more inclined to say:
"for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely kill you", or if being generous, "for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely start to kill you, and be done with it eventually"?

Even when I read this as a kid I knew it didn't mean God was going to kill their flesh bodies. Remember everything in scriptures speaks of two natures, flesh and spirit and obviously, even when I was a kid I knew God meant spiritually speaking, not physically. Why would God (probably knowing) Adam would fall create all this paradise just to kill Adam and his wife a little later lol? does that make sense?

God did not know Adam would fall, and in fact he trusted him not to, though the possibility was always there.

Your God must be very stupid.

Why? It was not inevitable.

He does not control how we react in different circumstances, that is what free will means.

Obviously he would have known the possibility, and the trust he was putting in Adam, but I guess he hoped the promise that was in front of Adam was sufficient to ensure his loyalty.

Shame Adam was too dumb to think of that, and too selfish to ignore what he was doing to his progeny. Who incidentally, on the whole, simply get dumber every generation.

Not that nothing they do is clever, the stupidity comes in wanting to do those things in the first place.


However no individual is destined to succeed or fail, that all depends on how they use the free will Jehovah gave them.

However, "rebirth" takes many forms, and is, in effect, what baptism symbolises, dying to your previous life, and being "reborn" to a life of servitude to Christ, with the prospect of eternal life on a paradise earth in view for those remain faithful to the end of their lives.

For a few, the reward is different and, if they are judged worthy of being offered it, will give them the prospect of life as a spirit being, in heaven, ruling alongside Christ. Equally dependent on their remaining faithful to the end.

Spiritual death not material death, they lost what they had with God spiritually.


True, though that assumes they had it in the first place, though all are to be offered the opportunity to it. However mankind as a whole ahs been alienated from Jehovah since Adam's fall.

It's another spiritual principle hid behind imagery my friend, Jesus realigns this in John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

That is true, in the sense I explained above, in the case of both offered destinies.


4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Again, that is symbolised by baptism, death to our previous lives, "rebirth" to a new life of servitude to Christ, and thus to his father.

There is far more to being "Christian" in life, and not just in name, than most people are ever taught, unless they choose to listen to Jehovah's messengers, his Witnesses.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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7/8/2015 10:40:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die the day they ate it, that was many many years later. That plays fast and loose with intents of words, to me, that variety of verbiage means "yer gonna be dead in 24 hours". Remember, this is a book of the Bible in which people contest that indeed, a literal 7 days all things were created, so trying to squeak funny little plays on words to me seems like... well, its just horribly inconvenient to admit that God sort of um... "bent the truth" a little.

Anyways, back to the point at hand, if God wanted to be completely honest with Adam and Eve, you know, as His all good nature is supposed to demand (in as much as God, depending upon whom you ask can't lie) wouldn't He be more inclined to say:
"for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely kill you", or if being generous, "for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely start to kill you, and be done with it eventually"?

Or maybe God was speaking of a spiritual death instead of a physical one.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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7/8/2015 10:48:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die the day they ate it, that was many many years later. That plays fast and loose with intents of words, to me, that variety of verbiage means "yer gonna be dead in 24 hours". Remember, this is a book of the Bible in which people contest that indeed, a literal 7 days all things were created, so trying to squeak funny little plays on words to me seems like... well, its just horribly inconvenient to admit that God sort of um... "bent the truth" a little.

Anyways, back to the point at hand, if God wanted to be completely honest with Adam and Eve, you know, as His all good nature is supposed to demand (in as much as God, depending upon whom you ask can't lie) wouldn't He be more inclined to say:
"for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely kill you", or if being generous, "for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely start to kill you, and be done with it eventually"?

I think the obvious answer is that they had sinned and were thus spiritually separated from God. Being separated from the source of all life itself is true death. This is the second death that Jesus talks about.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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7/8/2015 10:54:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 10:28:56 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/8/2015 8:27:56 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/8/2015 8:13:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
God did not know Adam would fall,
This would be your dumbarse OMNISCIENT god.
You are seriously demented.
Yeah I know your stupid apologetics, how does he know that which he refuses to know dummy.

Not difficult to understand once you know.

Shame you know so little, except insult and obscenity.

Omniscience dummy.
God did not know Adam would fall,
How dumb is an omniscient god?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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7/8/2015 10:56:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die...

They died, because they lost their life with God in the paradise.

That is why Jesus came to rescue us from the death.

Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24

On basis of that, this life here seems to be actually death (first death, second death is hell, Revelation 20:12-15).
bulproof
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7/8/2015 11:06:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 10:56:24 AM, 12_13 wrote:
That is why Jesus came to rescue us from the death.
And everybody ever since has died.
Just another god FAIL.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/8/2015 11:31:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 11:06:01 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/8/2015 10:56:24 AM, 12_13 wrote:
That is why Jesus came to rescue us from the death.
And everybody ever since has died.
Just another god FAIL.

Nope, the plan isn't finished yet. Even the guilty deserve time to prove their case. SAtan's is up and as soon as everything is ready, judgement will be carried out.

You can only fail when something is beyond it's planned time, or when the possibility of success is gone.

Jehovah never has, failed and never will.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/8/2015 11:36:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 10:54:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/8/2015 10:28:56 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/8/2015 8:27:56 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/8/2015 8:13:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
God did not know Adam would fall,
This would be your dumbarse OMNISCIENT god.
You are seriously demented.
Yeah I know your stupid apologetics, how does he know that which he refuses to know dummy.

Not difficult to understand once you know.

Shame you know so little, except insult and obscenity.

Omniscience dummy.
God did not know Adam would fall,
How dumb is an omniscient god?

Have I ever claimed that God was omniscient? It is not a term I use.

I have always said that he has the ability to know what he feels the need to know, but you don't spy on people you trust, so Jehovah never has spied on his creation, spirit or human.

It is ignorant idiots like you, who have no desire to know the truth of things, that claim otherwise, little baby boy.

I love God, as the loving, trusting defender of those who threaten his people in any way whatever that he is.
MadCornishBiker
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7/8/2015 11:38:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 10:48:59 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:32:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
So... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I hear this get rationalized as Adam and Eve will -start- to die, since, well, they didn't die the day they ate it, that was many many years later. That plays fast and loose with intents of words, to me, that variety of verbiage means "yer gonna be dead in 24 hours". Remember, this is a book of the Bible in which people contest that indeed, a literal 7 days all things were created, so trying to squeak funny little plays on words to me seems like... well, its just horribly inconvenient to admit that God sort of um... "bent the truth" a little.

Anyways, back to the point at hand, if God wanted to be completely honest with Adam and Eve, you know, as His all good nature is supposed to demand (in as much as God, depending upon whom you ask can't lie) wouldn't He be more inclined to say:
"for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely kill you", or if being generous, "for in the day you eat of it, I shall surely start to kill you, and be done with it eventually"?

I think the obvious answer is that they had sinned and were thus spiritually separated from God. Being separated from the source of all life itself is true death. This is the second death that Jesus talks about.

Correct. That is the fate of all who are permanently separated from Jehovah.

However those who have died ignorant will get a chance to learn in the resurrection, unless that ignorance was deliberate.
annanicole
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7/8/2015 11:45:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 11:31:37 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/8/2015 11:06:01 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/8/2015 10:56:24 AM, 12_13 wrote:
That is why Jesus came to rescue us from the death.
And everybody ever since has died.
Just another god FAIL.

Nope, the plan isn't finished yet. Even the guilty deserve time to prove their case. SAtan's is up and as soon as everything is ready, judgement will be carried out.

"Everything was ready" back in 1874. No, it was 1878. Nahhhh, it was 1914. 1915. 1918. 1920. 1925. 1932. Ad nauseum.

"We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925." - Watchtower 1922 May 15 p.147

I think I'd drop whose ridiculous (and figurative) "chronologies". You've already seen how foolish they are.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,586
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7/8/2015 11:48:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 10:33:32 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
God did not know Adam would fall...

He does not control how we react in different circumstances, that is what free will means.

Obviously he would have known the possibility, and the trust he was putting in Adam, but I guess he hoped the promise that was in front of Adam was sufficient to ensure his loyalty.

Of course, you guess, that is why it's so easy to spot your contradictions, like when you claim, "God did not know", which shows your God is not omniscient, not all-knowing, something you yourself have claimed before that He is all-knowing.

And no, free will is not about God controlling how we react, that too is another contradiction on your part.

For you, it' s all about guessing, but the problem with guessing is that you forget what you said before, then you wind up contradicting it.

It's hilarious entertainment watching you squirm and wriggle as you attempt to back peddle out of your contradictions, failing miserably, of course.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
bulproof
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7/8/2015 11:50:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 11:31:37 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/8/2015 11:06:01 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/8/2015 10:56:24 AM, 12_13 wrote:
That is why Jesus came to rescue us from the death.
And everybody ever since has died.
Just another god FAIL.

Nope, the plan isn't finished yet. Even the guilty deserve time to prove their case. SAtan's is up and as soon as everything is ready, judgement will be carried out.

You can only fail when something is beyond it's planned time, or when the possibility of success is gone.

Jehovah never has, failed and never will.

Yes dummy you can't read. Jesus came and defeated DEATH.
Woops, nope everybody still dies.
Even those like you who are so afraid of dying.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
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7/8/2015 12:25:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 11:50:57 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/8/2015 11:31:37 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/8/2015 11:06:01 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/8/2015 10:56:24 AM, 12_13 wrote:
That is why Jesus came to rescue us from the death.
And everybody ever since has died.
Just another god FAIL.

Nope, the plan isn't finished yet. Even the guilty deserve time to prove their case. SAtan's is up and as soon as everything is ready, judgement will be carried out.

You can only fail when something is beyond it's planned time, or when the possibility of success is gone.

Jehovah never has, failed and never will.

Yes dummy you can't read. Jesus came and defeated DEATH.
Woops, nope everybody still dies.
Even those like you who are so afraid of dying.

That's right, and he ahs. However the merit of his sacrifice has not yet been applied and will not be until after Armageddon.

If you had anything more than the most surface knowledge of what you are only too eager to criticise in your ignorance, you would not do so, as lightly as you do.;

Dumb little baby boy, so ignorant and yet so afraid to admit it.

we've all been there, but some of us grew up.
MadCornishBiker
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7/8/2015 12:26:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 11:48:40 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/8/2015 10:33:32 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
God did not know Adam would fall...

He does not control how we react in different circumstances, that is what free will means.

Obviously he would have known the possibility, and the trust he was putting in Adam, but I guess he hoped the promise that was in front of Adam was sufficient to ensure his loyalty.

Of course, you guess, that is why it's so easy to spot your contradictions, like when you claim, "God did not know", which shows your God is not omniscient, not all-knowing, something you yourself have claimed before that He is all-knowing.

And no, free will is not about God controlling how we react, that too is another contradiction on your part.

For you, it' s all about guessing, but the problem with guessing is that you forget what you said before, then you wind up contradicting it.

It's hilarious entertainment watching you squirm and wriggle as you attempt to back peddle out of your contradictions, failing miserably, of course.

There are no contradictions in what I teach, only in your tiny, mouse brain, little Dangermouse.
DanneJeRusse
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7/8/2015 12:31:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 12:26:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/8/2015 11:48:40 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/8/2015 10:33:32 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
God did not know Adam would fall...

He does not control how we react in different circumstances, that is what free will means.

Obviously he would have known the possibility, and the trust he was putting in Adam, but I guess he hoped the promise that was in front of Adam was sufficient to ensure his loyalty.

Of course, you guess, that is why it's so easy to spot your contradictions, like when you claim, "God did not know", which shows your God is not omniscient, not all-knowing, something you yourself have claimed before that He is all-knowing.

And no, free will is not about God controlling how we react, that too is another contradiction on your part.

For you, it' s all about guessing, but the problem with guessing is that you forget what you said before, then you wind up contradicting it.

It's hilarious entertainment watching you squirm and wriggle as you attempt to back peddle out of your contradictions, failing miserably, of course.

There are no contradictions in what I teach, only in your tiny, mouse brain, little Dangermouse.

And yet, you did contradict yourself, it's right there for all to see, then you admitted to guessing. LOL.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MadCornishBiker
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7/8/2015 12:31:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 11:45:14 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/8/2015 11:31:37 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/8/2015 11:06:01 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/8/2015 10:56:24 AM, 12_13 wrote:
That is why Jesus came to rescue us from the death.
And everybody ever since has died.
Just another god FAIL.

Nope, the plan isn't finished yet. Even the guilty deserve time to prove their case. SAtan's is up and as soon as everything is ready, judgement will be carried out.

"Everything was ready" back in 1874. No, it was 1878. Nahhhh, it was 1914. 1915. 1918. 1920. 1925. 1932. Ad nauseum.

"We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925." - Watchtower 1922 May 15 p.147

I think I'd drop whose ridiculous (and figurative) "chronologies". You've already seen how foolish they are.

No, everything was not ready, nor will it be until the last of the holy ones are gathered in, as Revelation 7:1-3 tells us.

Only a fool would set up a kingdom before all it's rulers were present, and jehovah is no fool, much as you like to make him appear so.

The fact that they made mistakes back then that they have since learned were actually errors, and thus have moved on from is the only real weaponry you have, but it was fired long ago in the past, where your mind still resides.

At least you are teaching me why Jehovah called the Israelites "stiff necked", lol.
Vox_Veritas
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7/8/2015 1:00:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There is of course the "spiritual death" interpretation which, if you look at the Bible, is not really all that bad an interpretation. You can either believe it that way or choose to question it (though choosing to be skeptical of this interpretation doesn't actually do anything towards disproving the Bible since that may very well in fact be the correct interpretation). Since there's no way of actually knowing what God meant by "die" (for instance, the Bible has referred to eternal damnation and/or separation from God as a form of death), it is a real possibility.
However, there is another possible interpretation.

In the Bible, the Israelites offered sacrifices unto God. When they did this, the judgment they deserved was "put off" until a later time, whenever God would ultimately deal with it (see first four books of New Testament). Notice that in this story God "made clothes out of animal skins" (paraphrasing). That meant that an animal most probably died. The animal may have thus been "sacrificed", putting off the punishment that they would've otherwise received immediately. Note that Adam and Eve themselves offered sacrifices themselves later on.
Also, there have been instances where God intended on doing something but His mind was changed. For instance, in the Book of Exodus God intended on wiping out the current (at its time) generation and "starting over" the nation of Israel with Moses. Moses interceded for his people and they were not wiped out.
Either way, even if they didn't physically die immediately, they did ultimately physically die. It's very much possible that God put off their punishment to a later date through a sacrifice. Given cited other examples of God's behavior, this doesn't necessarily contradict His nature.
Thus, it could be read as "If you eat the fruit, you will deserve death, and I will carry out your sentence, and under standard conditions you'd receive your punishment immediately." Note that Satan also was not immediately damned for his rebellion.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Vox_Veritas
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7/8/2015 1:08:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:00:35 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
There is of course the "spiritual death" interpretation which, if you look at the Bible, is not really all that bad an interpretation. You can either believe it that way or choose to question it (though choosing to be skeptical of this interpretation doesn't actually do anything towards disproving the Bible since that may very well in fact be the correct interpretation). Since there's no way of actually knowing what God meant by "die" (for instance, the Bible has referred to eternal damnation and/or separation from God as a form of death), it is a real possibility.
However, there is another possible interpretation.

In the Bible, the Israelites offered sacrifices unto God. When they did this, the judgment they deserved was "put off" until a later time, whenever God would ultimately deal with it (see first four books of New Testament). Notice that in this story God "made clothes out of animal skins" (paraphrasing). That meant that an animal most probably died. The animal may have thus been "sacrificed", putting off the punishment that they would've otherwise received immediately. Note that Adam and Eve themselves offered sacrifices themselves later on.
Also, there have been instances where God intended on doing something but His mind was changed. For instance, in the Book of Exodus God intended on wiping out the current (at its time) generation and "starting over" the nation of Israel with Moses. Moses interceded for his people and they were not wiped out.
Either way, even if they didn't physically die immediately, they did ultimately physically die. It's very much possible that God put off their punishment to a later date through a sacrifice. Given cited other examples of God's behavior, this doesn't necessarily contradict His nature.
Thus, it could be read as "If you eat the fruit, you will deserve death, and I will carry out your sentence, and under standard conditions you'd receive your punishment immediately." Note that Satan also was not immediately damned for his rebellion.

Several things should be noted here:

1. While convenient, God is under no obligation to explain exactly what He meant. In the case of Adam and Eve, what they needed to know was that they'd experience some form of death, or that God planned initially on killing them immediately if they sinned (it's possible that they begged for mercy, which changed God's mind and delayed the full carrying out of their sentences).
2. It's possible that God meant spiritual death and He directly told them what He meant, though this conversation wasn't recorded in the Bible.
3. Faith in God that He knows what He's doing and what He's talking about. 'Nuff said.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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7/8/2015 1:11:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:08:12 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:00:35 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
There is of course the "spiritual death" interpretation which, if you look at the Bible, is not really all that bad an interpretation. You can either believe it that way or choose to question it (though choosing to be skeptical of this interpretation doesn't actually do anything towards disproving the Bible since that may very well in fact be the correct interpretation). Since there's no way of actually knowing what God meant by "die" (for instance, the Bible has referred to eternal damnation and/or separation from God as a form of death), it is a real possibility.
However, there is another possible interpretation.

In the Bible, the Israelites offered sacrifices unto God. When they did this, the judgment they deserved was "put off" until a later time, whenever God would ultimately deal with it (see first four books of New Testament). Notice that in this story God "made clothes out of animal skins" (paraphrasing). That meant that an animal most probably died. The animal may have thus been "sacrificed", putting off the punishment that they would've otherwise received immediately. Note that Adam and Eve themselves offered sacrifices themselves later on.
Also, there have been instances where God intended on doing something but His mind was changed. For instance, in the Book of Exodus God intended on wiping out the current (at its time) generation and "starting over" the nation of Israel with Moses. Moses interceded for his people and they were not wiped out.
Either way, even if they didn't physically die immediately, they did ultimately physically die. It's very much possible that God put off their punishment to a later date through a sacrifice. Given cited other examples of God's behavior, this doesn't necessarily contradict His nature.
Thus, it could be read as "If you eat the fruit, you will deserve death, and I will carry out your sentence, and under standard conditions you'd receive your punishment immediately." Note that Satan also was not immediately damned for his rebellion.

Several things should be noted here:

1. While convenient, God is under no obligation to explain exactly what He meant. In the case of Adam and Eve, what they needed to know was that they'd experience some form of death, or that God planned initially on killing them immediately if they sinned (it's possible that they begged for mercy, which changed God's mind and delayed the full carrying out of their sentences).
2. It's possible that God meant spiritual death and He directly told them what He meant, though this conversation wasn't recorded in the Bible.
3. Faith in God that He knows what He's doing and what He's talking about. 'Nuff said.

How exactly does one change the mind of an all knowing being, wouldn't he already know the how to deal with the situation properly? It's statements like these that make him seem like more of a mortal king than he claims, which further reduces his importance or affect to the minds of democratic beings such as us.
Vox_Veritas
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7/8/2015 1:16:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:11:32 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:08:12 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:00:35 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
There is of course the "spiritual death" interpretation which, if you look at the Bible, is not really all that bad an interpretation. You can either believe it that way or choose to question it (though choosing to be skeptical of this interpretation doesn't actually do anything towards disproving the Bible since that may very well in fact be the correct interpretation). Since there's no way of actually knowing what God meant by "die" (for instance, the Bible has referred to eternal damnation and/or separation from God as a form of death), it is a real possibility.
However, there is another possible interpretation.

In the Bible, the Israelites offered sacrifices unto God. When they did this, the judgment they deserved was "put off" until a later time, whenever God would ultimately deal with it (see first four books of New Testament). Notice that in this story God "made clothes out of animal skins" (paraphrasing). That meant that an animal most probably died. The animal may have thus been "sacrificed", putting off the punishment that they would've otherwise received immediately. Note that Adam and Eve themselves offered sacrifices themselves later on.
Also, there have been instances where God intended on doing something but His mind was changed. For instance, in the Book of Exodus God intended on wiping out the current (at its time) generation and "starting over" the nation of Israel with Moses. Moses interceded for his people and they were not wiped out.
Either way, even if they didn't physically die immediately, they did ultimately physically die. It's very much possible that God put off their punishment to a later date through a sacrifice. Given cited other examples of God's behavior, this doesn't necessarily contradict His nature.
Thus, it could be read as "If you eat the fruit, you will deserve death, and I will carry out your sentence, and under standard conditions you'd receive your punishment immediately." Note that Satan also was not immediately damned for his rebellion.

Several things should be noted here:

1. While convenient, God is under no obligation to explain exactly what He meant. In the case of Adam and Eve, what they needed to know was that they'd experience some form of death, or that God planned initially on killing them immediately if they sinned (it's possible that they begged for mercy, which changed God's mind and delayed the full carrying out of their sentences).
2. It's possible that God meant spiritual death and He directly told them what He meant, though this conversation wasn't recorded in the Bible.
3. Faith in God that He knows what He's doing and what He's talking about. 'Nuff said.

How exactly does one change the mind of an all knowing being, wouldn't he already know the how to deal with the situation properly? It's statements like these that make him seem like more of a mortal king than he claims, which further reduces his importance or affect to the minds of democratic beings such as us.

Perhaps God initially planned on changing His mind if He witnessed certain things in human beings.
For instance:
"Repent Israel or I will send you into exile."
What God does in this situation depends on the actions of humans. In the same way, God may allow humans to change His mind if they do certain stuff (like demonstrate faith, repentance, humility, etc).
As for "all-knowing", you're basically raising the question of free will, and we don't really know if God grants that to human beings, and if so, in what way.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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