Total Posts:264|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

The preponderance of evidence has swayed me

janesix
Posts: 3,486
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 12:43:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

LOL. So, no matter how much evidence has been provided for you that shows no intelligent designer, no fine tuning, no irreducible complexity, you will ignore it all in favor of what the Bible says.

Preponderance indeed, preponderance of ignorance, incredulity and denial.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 12:43:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

https://www.youtube.com...
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 12:45:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

Though seriously, knock it off. The origin of the universe is still so far away from our comprehension that you are either being so arrogant to claim the supreme answer or too ignorant to understand how silly that is.
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 1:16:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:

There has to be an intelligent designer.

I am able to discern a disparity between your statement, "there HAS to be an intelligent designer," versus, "there IS an intelligent designer."

The former suggests that an investigation is still required or even there may or may not be a creator, whilst on the other hand the latter explicitly states that an intelligent creator exists.

Which do you support?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 1:42:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

And then you learn the designer gave a tree the knowledge of good and evil. The same designer gave another tree eternal life and called it the tree of life. What good was knowledge and eternal life to those trees that he gave them to ?
The question leads to one thing. The designer has to be stupid.
But wait...the stupidly continues. He gets his son Jesus crucified as a lesson to the Jews, have faith in the crucifixion or be damned.
The preponderance of evidence should sway anyone such stupidity cannot exist except in the minds of believers.
janesix
Posts: 3,486
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 1:47:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 12:43:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

LOL. So, no matter how much evidence has been provided for you that shows no intelligent designer, no fine tuning, no irreducible complexity, you will ignore it all in favor of what the Bible says.

Preponderance indeed, preponderance of ignorance, incredulity and denial.

I don't have any affinity for any particular religion. Especially Christianity.
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 1:48:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:42:58 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

And then you learn the designer gave a tree the knowledge of good and evil. The same designer gave another tree eternal life and called it the tree of life. What good was knowledge and eternal life to those trees that he gave them to ?
The question leads to one thing. The designer has to be stupid.
But wait...the stupidly continues. He gets his son Jesus crucified as a lesson to the Jews, have faith in the crucifixion or be damned.
The preponderance of evidence should sway anyone such stupidity cannot exist except in the minds of believers.

And all of this would've been solved if he wasn't just an ambitious gardener
janesix
Posts: 3,486
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 1:49:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:16:57 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:

There has to be an intelligent designer.

I am able to discern a disparity between your statement, "there HAS to be an intelligent designer," versus, "there IS an intelligent designer."

The former suggests that an investigation is still required or even there may or may not be a creator, whilst on the other hand the latter explicitly states that an intelligent creator exists.

Which do you support?

I will say, it seems more likely an intelligent designer exists. Of course, I will never have all of the facts, so it will be a continuing investigation.
janesix
Posts: 3,486
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 1:52:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:42:58 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

And then you learn the designer gave a tree the knowledge of good and evil. The same designer gave another tree eternal life and called it the tree of life. What good was knowledge and eternal life to those trees that he gave them to ?
The question leads to one thing. The designer has to be stupid.
But wait...the stupidly continues. He gets his son Jesus crucified as a lesson to the Jews, have faith in the crucifixion or be damned.
The preponderance of evidence should sway anyone such stupidity cannot exist except in the minds of believers.

Why do you automatically assume I believe in the Christian God? NONE of the gods of any religion seem very realistic to me.
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 1:58:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:49:57 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:16:57 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:

There has to be an intelligent designer.

I am able to discern a disparity between your statement, "there HAS to be an intelligent designer," versus, "there IS an intelligent designer."

The former suggests that an investigation is still required or even there may or may not be a creator, whilst on the other hand the latter explicitly states that an intelligent creator exists.

Which do you support?

I will say, it seems more likely an intelligent designer exists. Of course, I will never have all of the facts, so it will be a continuing investigation.

A reasonable response. Just to poke a bit, have you considered the inverse, that an intelligent designer more than likely does not exist?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:07:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:47:57 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:43:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

LOL. So, no matter how much evidence has been provided for you that shows no intelligent designer, no fine tuning, no irreducible complexity, you will ignore it all in favor of what the Bible says.

Preponderance indeed, preponderance of ignorance, incredulity and denial.

I don't have any affinity for any particular religion. Especially Christianity.

Would you say that this creator is greater than you in every way?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:08:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

A view readily accepted throughout human history until the mid 19th century, when scientists in their thousands started to think it wasn't, to the point where now, 150 years later, far from being overwhelmed by 'pro' evidence, very few scientists think our universe designed intelligently.

So what you're saying, Jane, is: you feel you understand the history of science up to 1859, but it lost you after that. :D
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:13:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:48:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:42:58 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

And then you learn the designer gave a tree the knowledge of good and evil. The same designer gave another tree eternal life and called it the tree of life. What good was knowledge and eternal life to those trees that he gave them to ?
The question leads to one thing. The designer has to be stupid.
But wait...the stupidly continues. He gets his son Jesus crucified as a lesson to the Jews, have faith in the crucifixion or be damned.
The preponderance of evidence should sway anyone such stupidity cannot exist except in the minds of believers.

And all of this would've been solved if he wasn't just an ambitious gardener

That sounds like you are negotiating a compromise. Dumb Gardner instead of Intelligent Designer which Christians will expand to morally objective dumb Gardner.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,327
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:20:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

Don't let the rabid dogs try and devour your logic in your thread, they will wither away with the grass, this is your life and awareness keep moving forward and let their mindsets stay behind.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,327
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:25:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 2:08:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

A view readily accepted throughout human history until the mid 19th century, when scientists in their thousands started to think it wasn't, to the point where now, 150 years later, far from being overwhelmed by 'pro' evidence, very few scientists think our universe designed intelligently.

So what you're saying, Jane, is: you feel you understand the history of science up to 1859, but it lost you after that. :D

And you've been coming here for how long and you still are unable to accept and separate science from spirituality? you are worse than I thought, looks like you're locked into something you can't seem to break free of.
Theists don't need to reject any modern science or any at all because science does what it does, science has no say about God and never did, it does not account for and answer spiritual questions especially about the existence of God, so while you pretend you have some valid point the rest of us will move on with reality.
janesix
Posts: 3,486
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:27:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 1:58:52 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:49:57 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:16:57 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:

There has to be an intelligent designer.

I am able to discern a disparity between your statement, "there HAS to be an intelligent designer," versus, "there IS an intelligent designer."

The former suggests that an investigation is still required or even there may or may not be a creator, whilst on the other hand the latter explicitly states that an intelligent creator exists.

Which do you support?

I will say, it seems more likely an intelligent designer exists. Of course, I will never have all of the facts, so it will be a continuing investigation.

A reasonable response. Just to poke a bit, have you considered the inverse, that an intelligent designer more than likely does not exist?

Yes. That has been my view for a while. But,as I said, the more I look, the more it looks like a designer is responsible for what I see in nature. I always look at all sides of an issue.
janesix
Posts: 3,486
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:30:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 2:07:53 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:47:57 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:43:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

LOL. So, no matter how much evidence has been provided for you that shows no intelligent designer, no fine tuning, no irreducible complexity, you will ignore it all in favor of what the Bible says.

Preponderance indeed, preponderance of ignorance, incredulity and denial.

I don't have any affinity for any particular religion. Especially Christianity.

Would you say that this creator is greater than you in every way?

I have some ideas as to the nature of the creator. Most likely the creator is vastly more intelligent than I am. I also believe he is more good than bad, but that is just a belief. He created spider wasps after all.
janesix
Posts: 3,486
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:31:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 2:08:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

A view readily accepted throughout human history until the mid 19th century, when scientists in their thousands started to think it wasn't, to the point where now, 150 years later, far from being overwhelmed by 'pro' evidence, very few scientists think our universe designed intelligently.

So what you're saying, Jane, is: you feel you understand the history of science up to 1859, but it lost you after that. :D

Many scientists believe in multiverses, to explain away the fine tuning. That, to me, takes more faith than believing in God.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:36:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 2:31:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:08:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

A view readily accepted throughout human history until the mid 19th century, when scientists in their thousands started to think it wasn't, to the point where now, 150 years later, far from being overwhelmed by 'pro' evidence, very few scientists think our universe designed intelligently.

So what you're saying, Jane, is: you feel you understand the history of science up to 1859, but it lost you after that. :D

Many scientists believe in multiverses, to explain away the fine tuning. That, to me, takes more faith than believing in God.

The universe wasn't fine tuned for us, we developed in it. We're not a cause, we're an effect. We are water that has taken the shape of our container so that it looks as if it was made for us instead of us being made by it.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:38:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 2:25:15 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:08:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

A view readily accepted throughout human history until the mid 19th century, when scientists in their thousands started to think it wasn't, to the point where now, 150 years later, far from being overwhelmed by 'pro' evidence, very few scientists think our universe designed intelligently.

So what you're saying, Jane, is: you feel you understand the history of science up to 1859, but it lost you after that. :D

And you've been coming here for how long and you still are unable to accept and separate science from spirituality?

It doesn't separate, EV, for the following reasons:

1) All human behaviour is studiable by psychology and sociology -- including religious and faith-based behaviours -- and religious belief is therefore subject to any findings arising from those studies;
2) To the extent that they make a prediction or claim an historical fact, all beliefs about how the universe works and what features it should evidence are accountable to scientific verification;
3) I've yet to see a definition of spirituality that is not subject to the above; and finally
4) Theology loathes being accountable for its errors, and frequently resorts to special pleading to evade falsification. The proposition that theology is too sacred and abstruse to be subject to scientific debunking enshrines special pleading as an axiom: theology writing itself a blank cheque to claim authority over everything while denying accountability for anything.

No thanks.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:38:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 2:30:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:07:53 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:47:57 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:43:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

LOL. So, no matter how much evidence has been provided for you that shows no intelligent designer, no fine tuning, no irreducible complexity, you will ignore it all in favor of what the Bible says.

Preponderance indeed, preponderance of ignorance, incredulity and denial.

I don't have any affinity for any particular religion. Especially Christianity.

Would you say that this creator is greater than you in every way?

I have some ideas as to the nature of the creator. Most likely the creator is vastly more intelligent than I am. I also believe he is more good than bad, but that is just a belief. He created spider wasps after all.

Okay. So you don't believe that the creator is perfect in nature?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:57:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 2:31:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:08:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.
So what you're saying, Jane, is: you feel you understand the history of science up to 1859, but it lost you after that. :D
Many scientists believe in multiverses, to explain away the fine tuning. That, to me, takes more faith than believing in God.

It's not about faith, Jane, but falsifiability. Correlation isn't evidence of cause. By that I mean, finding neat happenstances doesn't by itself mean 'intentional'.

Any understanding of intelligent design must be framed in terms of our understanding of intelligence and design -- which is substantial, since humans themselves are intelligent designers.

So the falsification conditions for designing intelligently are extensive. Anyone involved in designing clever things for a living can tell you what are some things that should never happen if a smart individual is driving the design and development process, even if they're learning as they go.

So if we find those hallmarks in the universe (and we have), then any serious conjecture of intelligence needs to fully account for that. It can't just shrug those problems off.

But I imagine you weren't looking diligently for falsification conditions, Jane -- only for conditions that support your conjecture. So this may all be new to you.

That's an error non-scientists often make. And the reason scientists disagree en masse with your conjecture is that they're professionally skilled at falsifying bad ideas they'd nevertheless like to believe in, while you I suspect, are not.
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 2:57:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 2:27:59 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:58:52 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:49:57 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:16:57 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:

There has to be an intelligent designer.

I am able to discern a disparity between your statement, "there HAS to be an intelligent designer," versus, "there IS an intelligent designer."

The former suggests that an investigation is still required or even there may or may not be a creator, whilst on the other hand the latter explicitly states that an intelligent creator exists.

Which do you support?

I will say, it seems more likely an intelligent designer exists. Of course, I will never have all of the facts, so it will be a continuing investigation.

A reasonable response. Just to poke a bit, have you considered the inverse, that an intelligent designer more than likely does not exist?

Yes. That has been my view for a while. But,as I said, the more I look, the more it looks like a designer is responsible for what I see in nature. I always look at all sides of an issue.

Understood.
janesix
Posts: 3,486
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 3:08:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 2:38:30 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:30:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:07:53 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:47:57 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:43:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

LOL. So, no matter how much evidence has been provided for you that shows no intelligent designer, no fine tuning, no irreducible complexity, you will ignore it all in favor of what the Bible says.

Preponderance indeed, preponderance of ignorance, incredulity and denial.

I don't have any affinity for any particular religion. Especially Christianity.

Would you say that this creator is greater than you in every way?

I have some ideas as to the nature of the creator. Most likely the creator is vastly more intelligent than I am. I also believe he is more good than bad, but that is just a belief. He created spider wasps after all.

Okay. So you don't believe that the creator is perfect in nature?

No
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 3:10:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 3:08:15 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:38:30 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:30:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:07:53 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:47:57 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:43:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

LOL. So, no matter how much evidence has been provided for you that shows no intelligent designer, no fine tuning, no irreducible complexity, you will ignore it all in favor of what the Bible says.

Preponderance indeed, preponderance of ignorance, incredulity and denial.

I don't have any affinity for any particular religion. Especially Christianity.

Would you say that this creator is greater than you in every way?

I have some ideas as to the nature of the creator. Most likely the creator is vastly more intelligent than I am. I also believe he is more good than bad, but that is just a belief. He created spider wasps after all.

Okay. So you don't believe that the creator is perfect in nature?

No

Is there an afterlife? If so is there a heaven and a hell?
janesix
Posts: 3,486
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 3:14:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 2:57:14 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:31:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:08:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.
So what you're saying, Jane, is: you feel you understand the history of science up to 1859, but it lost you after that. :D
Many scientists believe in multiverses, to explain away the fine tuning. That, to me, takes more faith than believing in God.

It's not about faith, Jane, but falsifiability. Correlation isn't evidence of cause. By that I mean, finding neat happenstances doesn't by itself mean 'intentional'.

Any understanding of intelligent design must be framed in terms of our understanding of intelligence and design -- which is substantial, since humans themselves are intelligent designers.

So the falsification conditions for designing intelligently are extensive. Anyone involved in designing clever things for a living can tell you what are some things that should never happen if a smart individual is driving the design and development process, even if they're learning as they go.

So if we find those hallmarks in the universe (and we have), then any serious conjecture of intelligence needs to fully account for that. It can't just shrug those problems off.

But I imagine you weren't looking diligently for falsification conditions, Jane -- only for conditions that support your conjecture. So this may all be new to you.

That's an error non-scientists often make. And the reason scientists disagree en masse with your conjecture is that they're professionally skilled at falsifying bad ideas they'd nevertheless like to believe in, while you I suspect, are not.

I'm not sure what that has to do with multiverses,and why atheist scientists need to make up something like multiverses to explain away the existence of fine-tuning. It seems purely that it stems from a desire NOT to invoke an intelligent designer to do the fine-tuning.
janesix
Posts: 3,486
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 3:15:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 3:10:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 3:08:15 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:38:30 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:30:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:07:53 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:47:57 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:43:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

LOL. So, no matter how much evidence has been provided for you that shows no intelligent designer, no fine tuning, no irreducible complexity, you will ignore it all in favor of what the Bible says.

Preponderance indeed, preponderance of ignorance, incredulity and denial.

I don't have any affinity for any particular religion. Especially Christianity.

Would you say that this creator is greater than you in every way?

I have some ideas as to the nature of the creator. Most likely the creator is vastly more intelligent than I am. I also believe he is more good than bad, but that is just a belief. He created spider wasps after all.

Okay. So you don't believe that the creator is perfect in nature?

No

Is there an afterlife? If so is there a heaven and a hell?

I don't believe in an afterlife.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 3:17:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 3:15:18 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 3:10:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 3:08:15 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:38:30 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:30:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 2:07:53 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/8/2015 1:47:57 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:43:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

LOL. So, no matter how much evidence has been provided for you that shows no intelligent designer, no fine tuning, no irreducible complexity, you will ignore it all in favor of what the Bible says.

Preponderance indeed, preponderance of ignorance, incredulity and denial.

I don't have any affinity for any particular religion. Especially Christianity.

Would you say that this creator is greater than you in every way?

I have some ideas as to the nature of the creator. Most likely the creator is vastly more intelligent than I am. I also believe he is more good than bad, but that is just a belief. He created spider wasps after all.

Okay. So you don't believe that the creator is perfect in nature?

No

Is there an afterlife? If so is there a heaven and a hell?

I don't believe in an afterlife.

So why would the creator create us? Is it just cruel?
Pase66
Posts: 775
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/8/2015 3:26:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/8/2015 12:38:19 PM, janesix wrote:
I can make no other conclusion now, the evidence is overwhelming that an intelligence created the universe.

The fine tuning, irreducible complex systems in biology, the geometry of the solar system. It all leads to one thing.

There has to be an intelligent designer.

If you are willing, I can easily counter the points you listed....
Check out these Current Debates
It Cannot be Shown that The Qur'an is Revelation from God
http://www.debate.org...