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Service without Religion

bsh1
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7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...
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bsh1
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7/10/2015 11:14:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Bump
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Fatihah
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7/10/2015 11:21:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

Response: A religious meeting focuses on praising and being thankful to God out of love. So a meeting without this principle can not substitute a religious meeting.
UniversalTheologian
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7/10/2015 11:29:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Go ahead and keep doing it until you find your answer.

Sincerity of Faith is the Holy Spirit that will set you free.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Sharku
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7/11/2015 12:38:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm not religious, but I don't see the point of this. Why not have a music or book club instead? It'd be the same thing.

A religious meeting is to talk about the teachings of your religion and how to be the best follower you can be.

I get that they're trying to get a sense of community, but you can form a tight knit group that helps each other out in running groups, book clubs, parent meet ups, etc...
bsh1
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7/11/2015 2:52:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/10/2015 11:21:52 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

Response: A religious meeting focuses on praising and being thankful to God out of love. So a meeting without this principle can not substitute a religious meeting.

Sure, a secular service is obviously not focusing on praising god, so, it cannot substitute that particular aspect of a religious service. But, I was more interested in whether it could replace the "spiritual, social, and emotional" elements of a religious service.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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7/11/2015 2:52:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/10/2015 11:29:21 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Go ahead and keep doing it until you find your answer.

Sincerity of Faith is the Holy Spirit that will set you free.

That's a bit dogmatic, and it doesn't actually seem to answer the question I posed.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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7/11/2015 2:58:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 12:38:53 AM, Sharku wrote:
I'm not religious, but I don't see the point of this. Why not have a music or book club instead? It'd be the same thing.

A religious meeting is to talk about the teachings of your religion and how to be the best follower you can be.

I get that they're trying to get a sense of community, but you can form a tight knit group that helps each other out in running groups, book clubs, parent meet ups, etc...

I think this is a fair question, and I think that there are three good responses to it:

1. By making the meeting a direct parallel to religious services, you can make a point about secularism. The idea of the meetings is to show that secularism is not un-spiritual or immoral, and the services do that by showing how similar secular spirituality and community can be to religious spirituality and community.

2. Sure, other clubs and organizations can build tight-knit groups, but few things bring people together like the church, in the same way that the church does. Secular services attempt to bring that particular kind of community interaction into a areligious realm.

3. It gently satirizes religion by creating religious-like services that preach secular and scientific doctrines rather than religious dogma. It attempts to emphasize through poking-fun at religion how silly religious beliefs are.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Vox_Veritas
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7/11/2015 3:03:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

On a purely emotional and psychological level, I guess so.
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Fatihah
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7/11/2015 3:04:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 2:52:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/10/2015 11:21:52 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

Response: A religious meeting focuses on praising and being thankful to God out of love. So a meeting without this principle can not substitute a religious meeting.

Sure, a secular service is obviously not focusing on praising god, so, it cannot substitute that particular aspect of a religious service. But, I was more interested in whether it could replace the "spiritual, social, and emotional" elements of a religious service.

Response: The spiritual, emotional, and social elements stem from a belief and love for God. So I would say that it cannot replace it.
bsh1
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7/11/2015 3:05:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:03:42 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

On a purely emotional and psychological level, I guess so.

I think so, too.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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Vox_Veritas
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7/11/2015 3:07:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:05:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:03:42 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

On a purely emotional and psychological level, I guess so.

I think so, too.

However, from a religious point of view, there's a certain aspect of sincere religious activity that cannot be replicated under secular conditions.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
bsh1
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7/11/2015 3:08:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:04:36 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/11/2015 2:52:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/10/2015 11:21:52 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

Response: A religious meeting focuses on praising and being thankful to God out of love. So a meeting without this principle can not substitute a religious meeting.

Sure, a secular service is obviously not focusing on praising god, so, it cannot substitute that particular aspect of a religious service. But, I was more interested in whether it could replace the "spiritual, social, and emotional" elements of a religious service.

Response: The spiritual, emotional, and social elements stem from a belief and love for God. So I would say that it cannot replace it.

I disagree. Certainly, the social benefits stem from social interaction, not from belief in god. As for emotional benefits, it seems that these can also be attained through a combination of giving-back, finding support, making friends, etc. The really area of contention, as I see it, is whether it can provide the same spiritual benefits. I don't see any reason why spirituality is necessarily predicated on a belief in god, and I think this link gives a good overview of that notion: https://en.wikipedia.org...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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7/11/2015 3:08:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:07:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:05:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:03:42 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

On a purely emotional and psychological level, I guess so.

I think so, too.

However, from a religious point of view, there's a certain aspect of sincere religious activity that cannot be replicated under secular conditions.

Why?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Vox_Veritas
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7/11/2015 3:10:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:08:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:07:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:05:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:03:42 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

On a purely emotional and psychological level, I guess so.

I think so, too.

However, from a religious point of view, there's a certain aspect of sincere religious activity that cannot be replicated under secular conditions.

Why?

Because there's no connection to God in an "atheist church".
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Vox_Veritas
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7/11/2015 3:14:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
To be fair, though, the original intent of church gatherings as proscribed in the Biblical New Testament is not necessarily to grow closer to God. That's what believers are supposed to do on all 7 days of the week, all the time. Communion among Christians is basically for strengthening each other's faith, encouragement, accountability in lifestyle, etc.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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bsh1
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7/11/2015 3:14:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:10:28 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:08:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:07:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:05:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:03:42 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

On a purely emotional and psychological level, I guess so.

I think so, too.

However, from a religious point of view, there's a certain aspect of sincere religious activity that cannot be replicated under secular conditions.

Why?

Because there's no connection to God in an "atheist church".

Right, that's definitionally true, but it doesn't actually substantiate your claim. You wrote: " there's a certain aspect of sincere religious activity that cannot be replicated under secular conditions."

Sincere religious activity arises from a strong belief in a theology. The whole idea of the article is to advance the notion that there is such a thing as a secular theology. The secularists, for example, might "worship" science or secular moral theories or something else. Thus, there is still a strong belief in a theology of sorts.

So, while a secular service obviously doesn't pay homage to god, it does pay homage to something. God is replaced by something else. So, I don't see why there is a substantive difference? What is so special about believing in god versus believing in some alternative?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Vox_Veritas
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7/11/2015 3:19:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:14:35 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:10:28 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:08:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:07:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:05:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:03:42 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

On a purely emotional and psychological level, I guess so.

I think so, too.

However, from a religious point of view, there's a certain aspect of sincere religious activity that cannot be replicated under secular conditions.

Why?

Because there's no connection to God in an "atheist church".

Right, that's definitionally true, but it doesn't actually substantiate your claim. You wrote: " there's a certain aspect of sincere religious activity that cannot be replicated under secular conditions."

Sincere religious activity arises from a strong belief in a theology. The whole idea of the article is to advance the notion that there is such a thing as a secular theology. The secularists, for example, might "worship" science or secular moral theories or something else. Thus, there is still a strong belief in a theology of sorts.

So, while a secular service obviously doesn't pay homage to god, it does pay homage to something. God is replaced by something else. So, I don't see why there is a substantive difference? What is so special about believing in god versus believing in some alternative?

Because according to the Bible, people have eternal souls, and the "health" of those souls can only be maintained through communion with God. One's physical and mental wellbeing on Earth is not the only concern here.
(Please excuse if it takes a long time for me to respond; my internet's being horrible right now.)
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Fatihah
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7/11/2015 3:21:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:08:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I disagree. Certainly, the social benefits stem from social interaction, not from belief in god. As for emotional benefits, it seems that these can also be attained through a combination of giving-back, finding support, making friends, etc. The really area of contention, as I see it, is whether it can provide the same spiritual benefits. I don't see any reason why spirituality is necessarily predicated on a belief in god, and I think this link gives a good overview of that notion: https://en.wikipedia.org...

Response: I disagree. Social, emotional, and spiritual benefits stem from believing in God. For example, by accepting that there is a loving God who will guide us, it puts you in a more compassionate and humble state emotionally, spiritually, and socially than one who does not believe. For example, a child will not likely do wrong right in front of the parent, but will do so when their back is turned. One will likely not steal or rob if a cop is there looking or they know there is a camera. Hence, they would be more convinced to do it if know one is watching. Whereas a believer in God knows and accepts God is always watching, so it helps them more spiritually, emotionally, and socially in these scenarios.

Another example is submission and faith. We will likely submit more to love when guided by one we accept is morally pure and cannot do wrong. Only God has this attribute.
bsh1
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7/11/2015 3:22:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:19:25 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:14:35 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:10:28 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:08:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:07:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
However, from a religious point of view, there's a certain aspect of sincere religious activity that cannot be replicated under secular conditions.

Why?

Because there's no connection to God in an "atheist church".

Right, that's definitionally true, but it doesn't actually substantiate your claim. You wrote: " there's a certain aspect of sincere religious activity that cannot be replicated under secular conditions."

Sincere religious activity arises from a strong belief in a theology. The whole idea of the article is to advance the notion that there is such a thing as a secular theology. The secularists, for example, might "worship" science or secular moral theories or something else. Thus, there is still a strong belief in a theology of sorts.

So, while a secular service obviously doesn't pay homage to god, it does pay homage to something. God is replaced by something else. So, I don't see why there is a substantive difference? What is so special about believing in god versus believing in some alternative?

Because according to the Bible, people have eternal souls, and the "health" of those souls can only be maintained through communion with God. One's physical and mental wellbeing on Earth is not the only concern here.
(Please excuse if it takes a long time for me to respond; my internet's being horrible right now.)

My first question is: what difference does that make? What about a belief in an eternal soul makes a religious service substantively different from a secular one? What practical effects does the belief in a soul have?

Secondly, why is belief in a soul exclusive to religion? A secular person might be just as willing to make that claim as a religious one.

Thirdly, you're shifting the goalposts. First, you talk about belief in god, now you're talking about belief in souls. I'll assume, then, that my pervious remarks are conceded and we're moving on to a new objection.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Philocat
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7/11/2015 3:26:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
IIRC, Immanuel Kant wrote that religions's main purpose is to serve as a force for moral structure in society. The social and structural nature of religion lends itself to fostering a moral community where people act morally to each other and develop social ties.

This is seen in how Church-goers, especially elderly ones, are generally more active in the community (namely charity work).

Could this be replicated by a secular service? Perhaps, but I guess it would seem a bit futile to those going, since they have little short-term motivation to attend every week.
Vox_Veritas
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7/11/2015 3:47:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:22:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:19:25 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:14:35 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:10:28 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:08:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:07:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
However, from a religious point of view, there's a certain aspect of sincere religious activity that cannot be replicated under secular conditions.

Why?

Because there's no connection to God in an "atheist church".

Right, that's definitionally true, but it doesn't actually substantiate your claim. You wrote: " there's a certain aspect of sincere religious activity that cannot be replicated under secular conditions."

Sincere religious activity arises from a strong belief in a theology. The whole idea of the article is to advance the notion that there is such a thing as a secular theology. The secularists, for example, might "worship" science or secular moral theories or something else. Thus, there is still a strong belief in a theology of sorts.

So, while a secular service obviously doesn't pay homage to god, it does pay homage to something. God is replaced by something else. So, I don't see why there is a substantive difference? What is so special about believing in god versus believing in some alternative?

Because according to the Bible, people have eternal souls, and the "health" of those souls can only be maintained through communion with God. One's physical and mental wellbeing on Earth is not the only concern here.
(Please excuse if it takes a long time for me to respond; my internet's being horrible right now.)

My first question is: what difference does that make? What about a belief in an eternal soul makes a religious service substantively different from a secular one? What practical effects does the belief in a soul have?

"Spiritual nourishment", as some people have referred to it.

Secondly, why is belief in a soul exclusive to religion? A secular person might be just as willing to make that claim as a religious one.

The secular definition of a soul would simply be the human consciousness, something that exists solely in a physical human body.

Thirdly, you're shifting the goalposts. First, you talk about belief in god, now you're talking about belief in souls. I'll assume, then, that my pervious remarks are conceded and we're moving on to a new objection.

I'm not shifting the goalpost at all. The eternal soul and religious activity's effect on it is that "certain aspect" in question. Atheist "church" will not benefit the eternal soul.
In your OP you included "spiritual", that is, pertaining to your eternal soul/spirit (same thing), so my discussion of spiritual health is 100% relevant to the topic is question.
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thett3
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7/11/2015 3:51:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 2:58:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 12:38:53 AM, Sharku wrote:
I'm not religious, but I don't see the point of this. Why not have a music or book club instead? It'd be the same thing.

A religious meeting is to talk about the teachings of your religion and how to be the best follower you can be.

I get that they're trying to get a sense of community, but you can form a tight knit group that helps each other out in running groups, book clubs, parent meet ups, etc...

I think this is a fair question, and I think that there are three good responses to it:

1. By making the meeting a direct parallel to religious services, you can make a point about secularism. The idea of the meetings is to show that secularism is not un-spiritual or immoral, and the services do that by showing how similar secular spirituality and community can be to religious spirituality and community.

How can a secular service be anything but unspiritual? The definition of secularism is non religious/spiritual.


2. Sure, other clubs and organizations can build tight-knit groups, but few things bring people together like the church, in the same way that the church does. Secular services attempt to bring that particular kind of community interaction into a areligious realm.

3. It gently satirizes religion by creating religious-like services that preach secular and scientific doctrines rather than religious dogma. It attempts to emphasize through poking-fun at religion how silly religious beliefs are.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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7/11/2015 3:56:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:26:32 PM, Philocat wrote:
IIRC, Immanuel Kant wrote that religions's main purpose is to serve as a force for moral structure in society. The social and structural nature of religion lends itself to fostering a moral community where people act morally to each other and develop social ties.

This is seen in how Church-goers, especially elderly ones, are generally more active in the community (namely charity work).

Could this be replicated by a secular service? Perhaps, but I guess it would seem a bit futile to those going, since they have little short-term motivation to attend every week.

Exactly this. In theory, a secular service could account for all the secular benefits that religious congregations do but the problem is putting it into practice and getting people to attend. With rare exception, these kind of ventures are doomed to be poor imitations of religious ceremony and fizzle out.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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7/11/2015 4:03:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This whole post reminds me of the South Park episode where Cartman goes to a future where traditional religion is completely obliterated and ridiculed. The populace worshiped Dawkins as a god, exclaimed things like "Science damn you!" or "Oh my science" and still fought over petty doctrinal matters (in this case, over what the world united under atheism should call itself). Obviously this isn't what an atheistic society would look like, but the point is that some sort of belief system will spring up no matter what because that's how people are. Even if that means listening to "scientific and secular doctrine" (whatever that means).
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bsh1
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7/11/2015 4:08:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 3:51:58 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 2:58:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 12:38:53 AM, Sharku wrote:
I'm not religious, but I don't see the point of this. Why not have a music or book club instead? It'd be the same thing.

A religious meeting is to talk about the teachings of your religion and how to be the best follower you can be.

I get that they're trying to get a sense of community, but you can form a tight knit group that helps each other out in running groups, book clubs, parent meet ups, etc...

I think this is a fair question, and I think that there are three good responses to it:

1. By making the meeting a direct parallel to religious services, you can make a point about secularism. The idea of the meetings is to show that secularism is not un-spiritual or immoral, and the services do that by showing how similar secular spirituality and community can be to religious spirituality and community.

How can a secular service be anything but unspiritual? The definition of secularism is non religious/spiritual.

Spirituality and religiosity are not the same thing though. Look for instance at Daoism. It is a belief system that is very spiritual, but it is non-theistic.
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thett3
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7/11/2015 4:10:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 4:08:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:51:58 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 2:58:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 12:38:53 AM, Sharku wrote:
I'm not religious, but I don't see the point of this. Why not have a music or book club instead? It'd be the same thing.

A religious meeting is to talk about the teachings of your religion and how to be the best follower you can be.

I get that they're trying to get a sense of community, but you can form a tight knit group that helps each other out in running groups, book clubs, parent meet ups, etc...

I think this is a fair question, and I think that there are three good responses to it:

1. By making the meeting a direct parallel to religious services, you can make a point about secularism. The idea of the meetings is to show that secularism is not un-spiritual or immoral, and the services do that by showing how similar secular spirituality and community can be to religious spirituality and community.

How can a secular service be anything but unspiritual? The definition of secularism is non religious/spiritual.

Spirituality and religiosity are not the same thing though. Look for instance at Daoism. It is a belief system that is very spiritual, but it is non-theistic.

No, theism and spirituality aren't the same thing. But secularism literally means the absence of religion and spirituality...it's just the definition of the word. If a service invokes some type of spiritualism it's just not secular.

Would you argue that Daoism is a secular belief system? I certainly wouldn't....
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Skepticalone
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7/11/2015 4:31:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

This post was inspired by this article: http://www.nytimes.com...

I see no reason why this could not be a substitute for religion. I agree this can meet an emotional and social need (I have no idea about spiritual).
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ironslippers
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7/11/2015 4:32:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/10/2015 10:09:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Is having religious-like meetings an adequate substitute for religion? I am not asking whether or not god exists, but merely whether someone can get the same spiritual, social, and emotional nourishment from a secular service as they could at a religious one.

Example of this would be found in 12 step programs (NA, AA, CA, SA, EA, DA, GA ETC
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bsh1
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7/11/2015 4:33:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/11/2015 4:10:36 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 4:08:20 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 3:51:58 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 2:58:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/11/2015 12:38:53 AM, Sharku wrote:
I'm not religious, but I don't see the point of this. Why not have a music or book club instead? It'd be the same thing.

A religious meeting is to talk about the teachings of your religion and how to be the best follower you can be.

I get that they're trying to get a sense of community, but you can form a tight knit group that helps each other out in running groups, book clubs, parent meet ups, etc...

I think this is a fair question, and I think that there are three good responses to it:

1. By making the meeting a direct parallel to religious services, you can make a point about secularism. The idea of the meetings is to show that secularism is not un-spiritual or immoral, and the services do that by showing how similar secular spirituality and community can be to religious spirituality and community.

How can a secular service be anything but unspiritual? The definition of secularism is non religious/spiritual.

Spirituality and religiosity are not the same thing though. Look for instance at Daoism. It is a belief system that is very spiritual, but it is non-theistic.

No, theism and spirituality aren't the same thing. But secularism literally means the absence of religion and spirituality...it's just the definition of the word. If a service invokes some type of spiritualism it's just not secular.

Would you argue that Daoism is a secular belief system? I certainly wouldn't....

It depends on how you define secularism. I would define it as denoting a lack of religious belief or indicating a lack of belief in god, and instead indicating a way of life that operates under that assumption. I don't think that this definition excludes spirituality, and, in fact, I don't think it would prohibit Daoism, Buddhism, or other non-theistic belief systems.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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