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Islam... slap or tickle ?

thisoneguy
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8/18/2010 6:29:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I was reading an interesting debate....
Part of which was centered on husbands hitting their wives without really hurting them, does anyone know how it works ?
from what I understood the Islamic female debater said "first a word, then a bed separation, then a "TAP" with a cloth as not to mark her", this is said to humiliate the female, so basically, the procedure is, it's two Strikes and a clout !
The female Islamic defender seemed keen to stress, "it only involved those wives who acted and dressed improper",

Here's an example, please let me know what you think.
A man marries a woman who has a tendency to dress and act in a sexually provocative manner,
At the wedding reception things are in full swing, then the bridegroom notices his adoring wife dancing with the chauffeur round the domed shaped wedding cake whilst wearing little more than her blue frilly garter and the veil having slipped round her waist
He then discreetly takes her aside from the wedding party, has a quiet loving word in her ear explaining the error of her ways

Within the hour his proves to have been fruitless, as he witness her singing "welcome to the hotel California" whilst hanging from a chandelier located at the hotel's reception area, He then opts to resort to plan "B" of his handbook and replaces the bridal suite booking, with two separate single rooms as an alternative
Come morning the hotel manager informs the sex starved groom that his wife will be late for breakfast as she is still playing poker with two night porters and a dishwasher in the staff sleeping quarters

Later at the table, having patiently picked his moment, he reaches over beyond his Coco pops, pretending to head for a brown slice of toast, and proceeds to humiliate her with his marmalade stained napkin, before heading off to the airport for a surprise 6 week honeymoon in Los Vegas paid for by the parents of the bride.

Does this Jive with Islam ?
tvellalott
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8/18/2010 6:33:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
That jives with my funny bone.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 6:35:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Out of curiosity, was it a debate on DDO?

As for an actual answer, based on my interpretation, it's not a literal beating. There are also sources and scholars that suggest that even as a physical beating it can't be enough to actually harm the woman.
Atheism
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8/18/2010 6:42:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 6:41:46 PM, Atheism wrote:
Mirza's going to break her fingers on this thread, I bet.
I miss the old members.
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 6:44:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 6:42:10 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 8/18/2010 6:41:46 PM, Atheism wrote:
Mirza's going to break her fingers on this thread, I bet.

Who? Mine?

Let's just say me and him and very different ideas about Islam...
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 6:44:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 6:44:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 6:42:10 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 8/18/2010 6:41:46 PM, Atheism wrote:
Mirza's going to break her fingers on this thread, I bet.

Who? Mine?

Let's just say me and him and very different ideas about Islam...

*have
thisoneguy
Posts: 30
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8/18/2010 6:53:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
A debate about Islam. Honour, and respect, toward women
It will open my eyes if its true and they don't beat em up,
I was of the opinion they had special hospitals for pole dancers over there. we live and learn.
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 6:57:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 6:53:09 PM, thisoneguy wrote:
A debate about Islam. Honour, and respect, toward women
It will open my eyes if its true and they don't beat em up,
I was of the opinion they had special hospitals for pole dancers over there. we live and learn.

Oh, that debate.
lovelife
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8/18/2010 7:05:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I can't agree with "humiliating her" I would say talk it over and if she doesn't learn what specifically you have a problem with get outside sources, her parents, friends, a marriage counsler. Anything. I don't think "tapping" should be used against anyone, no matter age, race, religion, sexual oreintation, gender, none of it matters on how you treat other people.

Main reason I can't agree with islam.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 7:08:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 7:05:32 PM, lovelife wrote:
I can't agree with "humiliating her" I would say talk it over and if she doesn't learn what specifically you have a problem with get outside sources, her parents, friends, a marriage counsler. Anything. I don't think "tapping" should be used against anyone, no matter age, race, religion, sexual oreintation, gender, none of it matters on how you treat other people.

Main reason I can't agree with islam.

Well talking things over is generally the first step. This stuff is done in stages. First, the couple is supposed to talk things over. If the same behaviour gets repeated you move to step two, no sex. If that still doesn't do anything, step three, a light beating. It shouldn't be enough to actually seriously harm her though.

*inb4 getting called sexist*
lovelife
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8/18/2010 8:12:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 7:08:15 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 7:05:32 PM, lovelife wrote:
I can't agree with "humiliating her" I would say talk it over and if she doesn't learn what specifically you have a problem with get outside sources, her parents, friends, a marriage counsler. Anything. I don't think "tapping" should be used against anyone, no matter age, race, religion, sexual oreintation, gender, none of it matters on how you treat other people.

Main reason I can't agree with islam.

Well talking things over is generally the first step. This stuff is done in stages. First, the couple is supposed to talk things over. If the same behaviour gets repeated you move to step two, no sex. If that still doesn't do anything, step three, a light beating. It shouldn't be enough to actually seriously harm her though.

*inb4 getting called sexist*

Does the same apply to the male partner? If so your religion is more sexist then I thought lol.
Physical harm, even if not serious, should not be used or threatned on males or females for any reason really.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 8:26:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:12:43 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 8/18/2010 7:08:15 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 7:05:32 PM, lovelife wrote:
I can't agree with "humiliating her" I would say talk it over and if she doesn't learn what specifically you have a problem with get outside sources, her parents, friends, a marriage counsler. Anything. I don't think "tapping" should be used against anyone, no matter age, race, religion, sexual oreintation, gender, none of it matters on how you treat other people.

Main reason I can't agree with islam.

Well talking things over is generally the first step. This stuff is done in stages. First, the couple is supposed to talk things over. If the same behaviour gets repeated you move to step two, no sex. If that still doesn't do anything, step three, a light beating. It shouldn't be enough to actually seriously harm her though.

*inb4 getting called sexist*

Does the same apply to the male partner? If so your religion is more sexist then I thought lol.
Physical harm, even if not serious, should not be used or threatned on males or females for any reason really.

Well there's different interpretations by different scholars, but this is generally the most accepted one so it's the one I used here. As far as I know, there are probably different things for males, but not beatings(even if they're harmless beatings for women).
lovelife
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8/18/2010 8:29:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:26:26 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 8:12:43 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 8/18/2010 7:08:15 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 7:05:32 PM, lovelife wrote:
I can't agree with "humiliating her" I would say talk it over and if she doesn't learn what specifically you have a problem with get outside sources, her parents, friends, a marriage counsler. Anything. I don't think "tapping" should be used against anyone, no matter age, race, religion, sexual oreintation, gender, none of it matters on how you treat other people.

Main reason I can't agree with islam.

Well talking things over is generally the first step. This stuff is done in stages. First, the couple is supposed to talk things over. If the same behaviour gets repeated you move to step two, no sex. If that still doesn't do anything, step three, a light beating. It shouldn't be enough to actually seriously harm her though.

*inb4 getting called sexist*

Does the same apply to the male partner? If so your religion is more sexist then I thought lol.
Physical harm, even if not serious, should not be used or threatned on males or females for any reason really.

Well there's different interpretations by different scholars, but this is generally the most accepted one so it's the one I used here. As far as I know, there are probably different things for males, but not beatings(even if they're harmless beatings for women).

Why would it be different?

The only problem I have with islam is I find it sexist by veiwimg females as weaker and having them "dress modest" by covering their hair or whatever. Nothing I could personally get into.

But most religions are sexist so don't worry its not just me being anti-islam. I also dislike christianity.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
mattrodstrom
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8/18/2010 8:34:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 7:08:15 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 7:05:32 PM, lovelife wrote:
I can't agree with "humiliating her" I would say talk it over and if she doesn't learn what specifically you have a problem with get outside sources, her parents, friends, a marriage counsler. Anything. I don't think "tapping" should be used against anyone, no matter age, race, religion, sexual oreintation, gender, none of it matters on how you treat other people.

Main reason I can't agree with islam.

Well talking things over is generally the first step. This stuff is done in stages. First, the couple is supposed to talk things over. If the same behaviour gets repeated you move to step two, no sex. If that still doesn't do anything, step three, a light beating. It shouldn't be enough to actually seriously harm her though.

*inb4 getting called sexist*

From what I read of the verse... It doesn't say "LIGHT" beating it says BEAT/SCOURGE

My understanding is that it's the (IN YOUR OPINION) unreliable Hadith which gets more specific.

though I also understand in the Hadith when Muhammed is deciding who some girls family should marry her off to he suggested Not to this one guy B/C he Severely beats his wives... and living as his wife would suck.

you'd think if Muhammed knew about that he'd put a stop to it if it weren't allowed.
HE IS god's supreme Holy dictator... and if he personally knew the guy... you'd think it wouldn't take much to get the guy to stop... EVEN if he didn't have the guy physically punished.

It seems to me like such a thing, though frowned upon,... was taken to be an IN FAMILY, personal, matter... one in which Mohammed didn't get directly involved.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 8:36:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:29:08 PM, lovelife wrote:

Why would it be different?

Well there's probably some biological details relating to it as to why the two genders are treated differently, but I'm no expert on that. My knowledge of biology is mainly limited to genetics.

The only problem I have with islam is I find it sexist by veiwimg females as weaker and having them "dress modest" by covering their hair or whatever. Nothing I could personally get into.

Oh, and I know of a few muslim women who don't really cover up. They might not be practicing though, I'm not really sure.

But most religions are sexist so don't worry its not just me being anti-islam. I also dislike christianity.

That's fine, as long as you're not picking on islam specifically, lol.
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 8:38:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:34:29 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

From what I read of the verse... It doesn't say "LIGHT" beating it says BEAT/SCOURGE

My understanding is that it's the (IN YOUR OPINION) unreliable Hadith which gets more specific.

though I also understand in the Hadith when Muhammed is deciding who some girls family should marry her off to he suggested Not to this one guy B/C he Severely beats his wives... and living as his wife would suck.

you'd think if Muhammed knew about that he'd put a stop to it if it weren't allowed.
HE IS god's supreme Holy dictator... and if he personally knew the guy... you'd think it wouldn't take much to get the guy to stop... EVEN if he didn't have the guy physically punished.

It seems to me like such a thing, though frowned upon,... was taken to be an IN FAMILY, personal, matter... one in which Mohammed didn't get directly involved.

Well you're probably better off discussing this stuff relating to the hadith with Mirza as I don't really believe in them.
mattrodstrom
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8/18/2010 8:42:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:38:39 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 8:34:29 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

From what I read of the verse... It doesn't say "LIGHT" beating it says BEAT/SCOURGE

My understanding is that it's the (IN YOUR OPINION) unreliable Hadith which gets more specific.

though I also understand in the Hadith when Muhammed is deciding who some girls family should marry her off to he suggested Not to this one guy B/C he Severely beats his wives... and living as his wife would suck.

you'd think if Muhammed knew about that he'd put a stop to it if it weren't allowed.
HE IS god's supreme Holy dictator... and if he personally knew the guy... you'd think it wouldn't take much to get the guy to stop... EVEN if he didn't have the guy physically punished.

It seems to me like such a thing, though frowned upon,... was taken to be an IN FAMILY, personal, matter... one in which Mohammed didn't get directly involved.

Well you're probably better off discussing this stuff relating to the hadith with Mirza as I don't really believe in them.

what I was saying is that I'm pretty sure the quran SIMPLY says Beat/Scourge your wife.

NOT lightly beat... or pat.. that stuff I'm pretty sure is either interpreted from other stuff in the Quran indirectly... or is based in the Hadith.

The line I read said simply BEAT/Scourge (WITHOUT qualification)...

though there might be other lines from the quran which suggest you should have mercy towards your wife... which might be the basis for saying Beat Lightly
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
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8/18/2010 8:45:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:36:15 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 8:29:08 PM, lovelife wrote:

Why would it be different?

Well there's probably some biological details relating to it as to why the two genders are treated differently, but I'm no expert on that. My knowledge of biology is mainly limited to genetics.


Yep thats the stuff I don't like. Biologically different really only gets you with reproductive terms, and that doesn't even work in all cases.

The only problem I have with islam is I find it sexist by veiwimg females as weaker and having them "dress modest" by covering their hair or whatever. Nothing I could personally get into.

Oh, and I know of a few muslim women who don't really cover up. They might not be practicing though, I'm not really sure.


True, some are muslim but aren't practicing but if its in your scripture or she'd get beaten "lightly" or anything for not doing it, then I'd say my point stands.

But most religions are sexist so don't worry its not just me being anti-islam. I also dislike christianity.

That's fine, as long as you're not picking on islam specifically, lol.

Lol just stating my problem with islam so it may help me find a religion worth looking into. Wicca still seems best but my dad said they're all into revenge and stuff which doesn't sound much better. He's a biggot tho so will still look into it.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 8:50:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:45:34 PM, lovelife wrote:

Yep thats the stuff I don't like. Biologically different really only gets you with reproductive terms, and that doesn't even work in all cases.

Nah, there's other differences too. Women are generally not as strong physically and tend to be alot more emotional among some things. Again, I'm not an expert.

True, some are muslim but aren't practicing but if its in your scripture or she'd get beaten "lightly" or anything for not doing it, then I'd say my point stands.

It is technically in the scriptures to cover up, but looking at the context one can almost argue that it was referring only to Muhammad's wives. That would be really pushing it though and generally isn't very accepted, even among the most liberal circles.

Lol just stating my problem with islam so it may help me find a religion worth looking into. Wicca still seems best but my dad said they're all into revenge and stuff which doesn't sound much better. He's a biggot tho so will still look into it.

Wicca seemed interesting for awhile until I realized it just wasn't my thing, lol. To each their own I suppose. If you like it I'd say go for it.
lovelife
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8/18/2010 8:51:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:42:35 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 8:38:39 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 8:34:29 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

From what I read of the verse... It doesn't say "LIGHT" beating it says BEAT/SCOURGE

My understanding is that it's the (IN YOUR OPINION) unreliable Hadith which gets more specific.

though I also understand in the Hadith when Muhammed is deciding who some girls family should marry her off to he suggested Not to this one guy B/C he Severely beats his wives... and living as his wife would suck.

you'd think if Muhammed knew about that he'd put a stop to it if it weren't allowed.
HE IS god's supreme Holy dictator... and if he personally knew the guy... you'd think it wouldn't take much to get the guy to stop... EVEN if he didn't have the guy physically punished.

It seems to me like such a thing, though frowned upon,... was taken to be an IN FAMILY, personal, matter... one in which Mohammed didn't get directly involved.

Well you're probably better off discussing this stuff relating to the hadith with Mirza as I don't really believe in them.

what I was saying is that I'm pretty sure the quran SIMPLY says Beat/Scourge your wife.

NOT lightly beat... or pat.. that stuff I'm pretty sure is either interpreted from other stuff in the Quran indirectly... or is based in the Hadith.

The line I read said simply BEAT/Scourge (WITHOUT qualification)...

though there might be other lines from the quran which suggest you should have mercy towards your wife... which might be the basis for saying Beat Lightly

Am I the only one that sees a problem with beat of any kind towards any person, animal, or living breathing thinking feeling creature?
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
mattrodstrom
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8/18/2010 8:52:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:45:34 PM, lovelife wrote:
Lol just stating my problem with islam so it may help me find a religion worth looking into. Wicca still seems best but my dad said they're all into revenge and stuff which doesn't sound much better. He's a biggot tho so will still look into it.

Daoism! Take a hit!
http://www.san.beck.org...

but don't do religion... it's bad for you.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
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8/18/2010 8:53:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:50:29 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 8:45:34 PM, lovelife wrote:

Yep thats the stuff I don't like. Biologically different really only gets you with reproductive terms, and that doesn't even work in all cases.

Nah, there's other differences too. Women are generally not as strong physically and tend to be alot more emotional among some things. Again, I'm not an expert.


Which doesn't make one less or more, doesn't mean any should be further protected, or more in control. Its about equality in relationships with friends family and significant others.

True, some are muslim but aren't practicing but if its in your scripture or she'd get beaten "lightly" or anything for not doing it, then I'd say my point stands.

It is technically in the scriptures to cover up, but looking at the context one can almost argue that it was referring only to Muhammad's wives. That would be really pushing it though and generally isn't very accepted, even among the most liberal circles.


Lol I can see why.

Lol just stating my problem with islam so it may help me find a religion worth looking into. Wicca still seems best but my dad said they're all into revenge and stuff which doesn't sound much better. He's a biggot tho so will still look into it.

Wicca seemed interesting for awhile until I realized it just wasn't my thing, lol. To each their own I suppose. If you like it I'd say go for it.

Yeah I've been getting an off/on interest in wicca. Same thing with islam until I found out some more about it.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
J.Kenyon
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8/18/2010 8:54:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 7:08:15 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Well talking things over is generally the first step. This stuff is done in stages. First, the couple is supposed to talk things over. If the same behaviour gets repeated you move to step two, no sex. If that still doesn't do anything, step three, a light beating. It shouldn't be enough to actually seriously harm her though.

*inb4 getting called sexist*

Right, cause' she'll take that much worse than he will -_-

Oh wait, polygamy, silly me ^^
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 8:56:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:54:28 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 8/18/2010 7:08:15 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Well talking things over is generally the first step. This stuff is done in stages. First, the couple is supposed to talk things over. If the same behaviour gets repeated you move to step two, no sex. If that still doesn't do anything, step three, a light beating. It shouldn't be enough to actually seriously harm her though.

*inb4 getting called sexist*

Right, cause' she'll take that much worse than he will -_-

Oh wait, polygamy, silly me ^^

And you say I contribute nothing to this site, lol.
lovelife
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8/18/2010 8:58:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:52:58 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 8:45:34 PM, lovelife wrote:
Lol just stating my problem with islam so it may help me find a religion worth looking into. Wicca still seems best but my dad said they're all into revenge and stuff which doesn't sound much better. He's a biggot tho so will still look into it.

Daoism! Take a hit!
http://www.san.beck.org...

but don't do religion... it's bad for you.

Nice poem. Looks like my beliefs too.
Lol religion causes cancer and AIDS simultaneously.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 8:59:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 8:52:58 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 8:45:34 PM, lovelife wrote:
Lol just stating my problem with islam so it may help me find a religion worth looking into. Wicca still seems best but my dad said they're all into revenge and stuff which doesn't sound much better. He's a biggot tho so will still look into it.

Daoism! Take a hit!
http://www.san.beck.org...

but don't do religion... it's bad for you.

Just admit it, you're a Daoist. :P
annhasle
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8/18/2010 9:00:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
@ lovelife

Wicca is not about revenge at all. When I knew my mom, she always taught me the Wiccan ways of her "coven". It's a nature based religion (neo-paganism) which is centered amongst the revered God and Goddesses. However, in Wicca, each Wiccan has a separate way of worshiping or even who they worship. Some believe in only Goddesses (like Mother Nature, Mother of Fertility and the Mother Moon) while others (like atheists and agnostics) don't really subscribe to a deity and instead view them as psychological archtypes of the human mind which can be evoked and interacted with.

They have influences of Taoism (balance) and also believe in Karma. They believe there to be an afterlife and also that you can contact spirits. They do use the pentagram which many mistake as being Satanic when really it represents the five elements (fire, water, air, earth and spirit). That's just what I learned from being around a Witch. Hope it helped clear up some of the bigotry your father believes.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.