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do muslims really believe...

belle
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8/18/2010 10:11:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
that lustful feelings are caused by women being somehow immodest? that if all women walked around completely covered men would stop having sexual thoughts?

in my night class we were talking about 19th century gender roles (don't ask) and one of the contrasts were that men were held to be lustful and sexual while women were considered asexual and naturally modest. this muslim guy raised his hand and asked something like: "how is that possible? if the girls are modest there is nothing for the men to lust after..." it was very strange. it seems to fit in with the cultural ideals and the burqa controversy... but i find it strange that anyone would believe theres a certain way women can behave to prevent men from thinking lustful thoughts about them....

thoughts, comments?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
lovelife
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8/18/2010 10:15:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:11:48 PM, belle wrote:
that lustful feelings are caused by women being somehow immodest? that if all women walked around completely covered men would stop having sexual thoughts?

in my night class we were talking about 19th century gender roles (don't ask) and one of the contrasts were that men were held to be lustful and sexual while women were considered asexual and naturally modest. this muslim guy raised his hand and asked something like: "how is that possible? if the girls are modest there is nothing for the men to lust after..." it was very strange. it seems to fit in with the cultural ideals and the burqa controversy... but i find it strange that anyone would believe theres a certain way women can behave to prevent men from thinking lustful thoughts about them....

thoughts, comments?

Burqas are sexy.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 10:19:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Wow, what's with everything about Islam today? I have been dealing with constant islamophobia all day and now several Islam related threads here, lol. Anyway, to address your question, yes. Many muslims do generally believe that lustful feelings can be created by immodesty. This is in both men and women btw. I can partly see why though. I'm sure a guy would get turned on if he saw a woman's cleavage hanging out of her shirt and a woman would be turned on by seeing a man's abs or something. Maybe burqas and things are a bit extreme, but I do generally believe in modesty and dress in a way where I'm not displaying my body. I do notice it does attract less attention too.
lovelife
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8/18/2010 10:26:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:19:00 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wow, what's with everything about Islam today? I have been dealing with constant islamophobia all day and now several Islam related threads here, lol. Anyway, to address your question, yes. Many muslims do generally believe that lustful feelings can be created by immodesty. This is in both men and women btw. I can partly see why though. I'm sure a guy would get turned on if he saw a woman's cleavage hanging out of her shirt and a woman would be turned on by seeing a man's abs or something. Maybe burqas and things are a bit extreme, but I do generally believe in modesty and dress in a way where I'm not displaying my body. I do notice it does attract less attention too.

I stand by what I said, burqas are sexy.

Anyway good luck proving that burqas attract less attention and that muslims don't just tend to have weird fetishes."if you don't wear the burqa I will make you wait for sex. You still wont wear it, so I will beat you and send you back to the burqa kitchen" lol I agree with modesty in choice but I don't think religion should say that you should wear something because of your gender. I also refuse to wear dresses and relunctant to wear anything obviously cut to be womens clothing. But most of my clothes are so not much of a choice.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 10:34:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:26:45 PM, lovelife wrote:

I stand by what I said, burqas are sexy.

I'm not going to lie. Hijab is pretty.

Anyway good luck proving that burqas attract less attention and that muslims don't just tend to have weird fetishes."if you don't wear the burqa I will make you wait for sex. You still wont wear it, so I will beat you and send you back to the burqa kitchen" lol I agree with modesty in choice but I don't think religion should say that you should wear something because of your gender. I also refuse to wear dresses and relunctant to wear anything obviously cut to be womens clothing. But most of my clothes are so not much of a choice.

Nah, most people who wear burqas do so by choice although it is a bit extreme. I suppose those people are just really devout. :P And no, most religions tell men to dress modestly too so it's not just women.
belle
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8/18/2010 10:37:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:19:00 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wow, what's with everything about Islam today? I have been dealing with constant islamophobia all day and now several Islam related threads here, lol. Anyway, to address your question, yes. Many muslims do generally believe that lustful feelings can be created by immodesty. This is in both men and women btw. I can partly see why though. I'm sure a guy would get turned on if he saw a woman's cleavage hanging out of her shirt and a woman would be turned on by seeing a man's abs or something. Maybe burqas and things are a bit extreme, but I do generally believe in modesty and dress in a way where I'm not displaying my body. I do notice it does attract less attention too.

well sure, parading half naked in front of a guy is going to turn him on. no one is denying that. but this guy literally seemed to believe that if women were modest, then men would not have lustful thoughts; ergo if a man has lustful thoughts about a woman she is not being modest enough.

i dunno about you guys, but i can have lustful thoughts about someone in jeans and a tshirt... revealing clothes may draw attention to the sexuality, but modest clothes don't really hide it... and theres a whole fetish thing with burqas and hiddenness...

but ANYWAYS... i guess my incredulity was directed at his belief that women could prevent men from having any lustful thoughts by behaving in the "proper way" whatever the hell that is... thus if men have lustful thoughts its the women's fault somehow...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/18/2010 10:39:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:37:38 PM, belle wrote:
thus if men have lustful thoughts its the women's fault somehow...

Isn't it pretty to think so?

LOL
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
belle
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8/18/2010 10:41:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:39:31 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:37:38 PM, belle wrote:
thus if men have lustful thoughts its the women's fault somehow...

Isn't it pretty to think so?


LOL

if thats a joke i don't get it. fail. wheres panda when you need him?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
mattrodstrom
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8/18/2010 10:44:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:41:37 PM, belle wrote:
if thats a joke i don't get it. fail. wheres panda when you need him?

well... it's a pretty thought to the self-hating lustful muslim men...
it alleviates their self hate.

also... that's how your post reads if you continue from it.... down to your sig (as I did)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/18/2010 10:47:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:44:05 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:41:37 PM, belle wrote:
if thats a joke i don't get it. fail. wheres panda when you need him?

well... it's a pretty thought to the self-hating lustful muslim men...
it alleviates their self hate.

also... that's how your post reads if you continue from it.... down to your sig (as I did)

the funny bit to me was that your quote was read (by me) as applying to a thought that I knew you wouldn't find very pretty.

alleviating the Islamic dudes guilt at the expense of womenfolk.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/18/2010 10:48:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:37:38 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:19:00 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wow, what's with everything about Islam today? I have been dealing with constant islamophobia all day and now several Islam related threads here, lol. Anyway, to address your question, yes. Many muslims do generally believe that lustful feelings can be created by immodesty. This is in both men and women btw. I can partly see why though. I'm sure a guy would get turned on if he saw a woman's cleavage hanging out of her shirt and a woman would be turned on by seeing a man's abs or something. Maybe burqas and things are a bit extreme, but I do generally believe in modesty and dress in a way where I'm not displaying my body. I do notice it does attract less attention too.

well sure, parading half naked in front of a guy is going to turn him on. no one is denying that. but this guy literally seemed to believe that if women were modest, then men would not have lustful thoughts; ergo if a man has lustful thoughts about a woman she is not being modest enough.

i dunno about you guys, but i can have lustful thoughts about someone in jeans and a tshirt... revealing clothes may draw attention to the sexuality, but modest clothes don't really hide it... and theres a whole fetish thing with burqas and hiddenness...

but ANYWAYS... i guess my incredulity was directed at his belief that women could prevent men from having any lustful thoughts by behaving in the "proper way" whatever the hell that is... thus if men have lustful thoughts its the women's fault somehow...

As Mitch Fatel said (can't find a vid T_T) "wtf even if we put women in like refridgerator boxes and cut out holes for arms and legs (and cover those up too) men would still be like "wow did you see that box? She must be a slut!""
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
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8/18/2010 10:50:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:48:34 PM, lovelife wrote:

As Mitch Fatel said (can't find a vid T_T) "wtf even if we put women in like refridgerator boxes and cut out holes for arms and legs (and cover those up too) men would still be like "wow did you see that box? She must be a slut!""

Hahaha. that made me lol. xD
belle
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8/18/2010 10:51:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:47:19 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:44:05 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:41:37 PM, belle wrote:
if thats a joke i don't get it. fail. wheres panda when you need him?

well... it's a pretty thought to the self-hating lustful muslim men...
it alleviates their self hate.

also... that's how your post reads if you continue from it.... down to your sig (as I did)

the funny bit to me was that your quote was read (by me) as applying to a thought that I knew you wouldn't find very pretty.

alleviating the Islamic dudes guilt at the expense of womenfolk.

yeah but the whole point of "isn't it pretty to think so" is that you know what you're thinking is false... it does make sense to have the quote applied to a situation where the person actually believes whatever rather than just wishing they could believe whatever, because the implications of that are different. its the difference between successful self delusion and unsuccessful self delusion.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
belle
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8/18/2010 10:52:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:48:34 PM, lovelife wrote:
As Mitch Fatel said (can't find a vid T_T) "wtf even if we put women in like refridgerator boxes and cut out holes for arms and legs (and cover those up too) men would still be like "wow did you see that box? She must be a slut!""

lmao
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
belle
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8/18/2010 10:52:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:51:32 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:47:19 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:44:05 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:41:37 PM, belle wrote:
if thats a joke i don't get it. fail. wheres panda when you need him?

well... it's a pretty thought to the self-hating lustful muslim men...
it alleviates their self hate.

also... that's how your post reads if you continue from it.... down to your sig (as I did)

the funny bit to me was that your quote was read (by me) as applying to a thought that I knew you wouldn't find very pretty.

alleviating the Islamic dudes guilt at the expense of womenfolk.

yeah but the whole point of "isn't it pretty to think so" is that you know what you're thinking is false... it doesn't make sense to have the quote applied to a situation where the person actually believes whatever rather than just wishing they could believe whatever, because the implications of that are different. its the difference between successful self delusion and unsuccessful self delusion.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/18/2010 10:54:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:50:57 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:48:34 PM, lovelife wrote:

As Mitch Fatel said (can't find a vid T_T) "wtf even if we put women in like refridgerator boxes and cut out holes for arms and legs (and cover those up too) men would still be like "wow did you see that box? She must be a slut!""

Hahaha. that made me lol. xD

Lol same. No amount of modesty will prevent lust, lust is natural. Most likely they will get aquired taste to the "refrigerator boxes" or not even care. What matters is one dresses how they wish and feel comfortable dressing.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/18/2010 10:56:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:50:57 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:48:34 PM, lovelife wrote:

As Mitch Fatel said (can't find a vid T_T) "wtf even if we put women in like refridgerator boxes and cut out holes for arms and legs (and cover those up too) men would still be like "wow did you see that box? She must be a slut!""

Hahaha. that made me lol. xD

You find the idea of women in boxes implausible to the point of hilarity?
http://www.google.com...

that's a person on the left... I could tell better if she was dressed like this:
http://www.google.com...

the first one looks more like some kind of lampshade.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/18/2010 10:58:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:51:32 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:47:19 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:44:05 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:41:37 PM, belle wrote:
if thats a joke i don't get it. fail. wheres panda when you need him?

well... it's a pretty thought to the self-hating lustful muslim men...
it alleviates their self hate.

also... that's how your post reads if you continue from it.... down to your sig (as I did)

the funny bit to me was that your quote was read (by me) as applying to a thought that I knew you wouldn't find very pretty.

alleviating the Islamic dudes guilt at the expense of womenfolk.

yeah but the whole point of "isn't it pretty to think so" is that you know what you're thinking is false... it does make sense to have the quote applied to a situation where the person actually believes whatever rather than just wishing they could believe whatever, because the implications of that are different. its the difference between successful self delusion and unsuccessful self delusion.

oh... sorry for laughing then.

I was wrong.

LOL 8)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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8/18/2010 11:03:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:51:32 PM, belle wrote:

yeah but the whole point of "isn't it pretty to think so" is that you know what you're thinking is false... it does make sense to have the quote applied to a situation where the person actually believes whatever rather than just wishing they could believe whatever, because the implications of that are different. its the difference between successful self delusion and unsuccessful self delusion.

So in other words, your sig would be much more fitting for Zetsubuo...
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/18/2010 11:06:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:11:48 PM, belle wrote:
but i find it strange that anyone would believe theres a certain way women can behave to prevent men from thinking lustful thoughts about them....

thoughts, comments?

It's also prevalent in U.S evangelical/Baptist rhetoric, about how a women dresses (normally targeted at teen girls) and how they should dress appropriately to mitigate male sexual drives.
mattrodstrom
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8/18/2010 11:15:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:52:53 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:51:32 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:47:19 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:44:05 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:41:37 PM, belle wrote:
if thats a joke i don't get it. fail. wheres panda when you need him?

well... it's a pretty thought to the self-hating lustful muslim men...
it alleviates their self hate.

also... that's how your post reads if you continue from it.... down to your sig (as I did)

the funny bit to me was that your quote was read (by me) as applying to a thought that I knew you wouldn't find very pretty.

alleviating the Islamic dudes guilt at the expense of womenfolk.

yeah but the whole point of "isn't it pretty to think so" is that you know what you're thinking is false... it doesn't make sense to have the quote applied to a situation where the person actually believes whatever rather than just wishing they could believe whatever, because the implications of that are different. its the difference between successful self delusion and unsuccessful self delusion.

also... Now that I think about it... I wasn't wrong :P

I SAID isn't it pretty to think so... in response to your saying what muslim men believe.

AS IF I was saying it would be "pretty" to think so....

which is kind of hilarious given that you (the sigger of the quote) prolly wouldn't find that thought being more widespread very "pretty".
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/19/2010 2:16:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 10:11:48 PM, belle wrote:
that lustful feelings are caused by women being somehow immodest? that if all women walked around completely covered men would stop having sexual thoughts?

in my night class we were talking about 19th century gender roles (don't ask) and one of the contrasts were that men were held to be lustful and sexual while women were considered asexual and naturally modest. this muslim guy raised his hand and asked something like: "how is that possible? if the girls are modest there is nothing for the men to lust after..." it was very strange. it seems to fit in with the cultural ideals and the burqa controversy... but i find it strange that anyone would believe theres a certain way women can behave to prevent men from thinking lustful thoughts about them....

thoughts, comments?:

It's a classic case of pure idiocy, where theists attempt to justify the normalcy of swimming against the current. You can't stop a man from lusting, short of removing his testicles and performing a lobotomy.

And the nonsense of how women are naturally modest is laughable. Women, who's sexuality has been repressed, is forced to feign their "modesty," when in reality they are generally every bit as salacious as their male counterparts.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Mirza
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8/19/2010 2:33:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Excuse me, but this is too nonsensical. What we believe is that both males and females should be modest and moral. Men in Saudi Arabia dress just like women, except that their faces are not covered. This is justified in the way that Islam makes it obligatory for men to let beards grow. Minimum is just having a beard.

So, it is not to "turn on" the opposite sex. I will elaborate later.
Zetsubou
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8/19/2010 2:37:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Immodest women do contribute to lustful feelings(or what is defined as such by Islam) in a society, common knowledge.

Why do you ask?
'sup DDO -- july 2013
lovelife
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8/19/2010 6:44:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/19/2010 2:37:03 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Immodest women do contribute to lustful feelings(or what is defined as such by Islam) in a society, common knowledge.

Why do you ask?

Women shouldn't be forced to dress a certain way. Men will still be lustfull and horny. It is the individuals duty to not act upon it if that is what they wish. From a religious standpoint I can't find most religions that allow you to f*ck anyone you want. Especially if they don't consent.

Women shouldn't have to dress a certain way, men should let their faces be how they want it to be, everyone should have the right to be how they want.

PS Mirza your religion works I hate guys with beards. They creep me out. Not gunna lie can't be next to one for long. I would never marry a guy with a beard lol facial hair is creepy lmao.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
belle
Posts: 4,113
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8/19/2010 6:45:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 11:15:47 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:52:53 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:51:32 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:47:19 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:44:05 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/18/2010 10:41:37 PM, belle wrote:
if thats a joke i don't get it. fail. wheres panda when you need him?

well... it's a pretty thought to the self-hating lustful muslim men...
it alleviates their self hate.

also... that's how your post reads if you continue from it.... down to your sig (as I did)

the funny bit to me was that your quote was read (by me) as applying to a thought that I knew you wouldn't find very pretty.

alleviating the Islamic dudes guilt at the expense of womenfolk.

yeah but the whole point of "isn't it pretty to think so" is that you know what you're thinking is false... it doesn't make sense to have the quote applied to a situation where the person actually believes whatever rather than just wishing they could believe whatever, because the implications of that are different. its the difference between successful self delusion and unsuccessful self delusion.

also... Now that I think about it... I wasn't wrong :P

I SAID isn't it pretty to think so... in response to your saying what muslim men believe.

AS IF I was saying it would be "pretty" to think so....

which is kind of hilarious given that you (the sigger of the quote) prolly wouldn't find that thought being more widespread very "pretty".

except why would you think its pretty to think so? you're not religious.... so it wouldn't make much of a difference to you... would it? o.O

do lustful thoughts make you feel guilty or uncomfortable?

also mirza, even if it goes both ways, which it probably does, and even if you accept the fact that dressing provocatively can INCREASE sexual thoughts, which i think everyone does, it doesn't follow that by dressing or acting in a certain way people can PREVENT others from having lustful thoughts, which is what the guy implied (ie if someone was properly modest then NO ONE would have lustful thoughts about them). thats why i was asking... is the guy an anomoly or is this a common thing?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
lovelife
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8/19/2010 6:53:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't get it I already said burqas are sexy, twice and the closest to a responce was I think INH agreed.

If the burqa adds to lustful thoughts maybe it out to be banned.

Truth is somebody is going to have lustful thoughts about that person. Even. If. They. Are. Married. Or. Dress. Modestly.
It really makes no difference, you can't get mad at someone for being turned on. You can get mad at them if they in turn rape that person.

Then again religion tends to be messed up and say you can't even feel like you might want to have sex until your like married. Thats just wrong, it is natural to feel that way and religious oppression just might be part of what makes terrorists.
Not saying every muslim or christian or peta-ist is, just I can see how it would lead there, very easily.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
tkubok
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8/19/2010 7:19:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I dont understand.

I can watch a porno movie and not even get an erection. I can watch women bathing on the beaches, and not have the urge to jump them. Its possible not to get seduced, and its really easy, its called self control. I dont understand this Muslim argument of "She seduced me and i had to rape her because she was wearing only a bikini!"
lovelife
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8/19/2010 7:24:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/19/2010 7:19:24 AM, tkubok wrote:
I dont understand.

I can watch a porno movie and not even get an erection. I can watch women bathing on the beaches, and not have the urge to jump them. Its possible not to get seduced, and its really easy, its called self control.

Thats called being gay. You can get horny and not act on it. You can even get horny cause you see a girl doing something (in your case guy) and not think about her/him.

I dont understand this Muslim argument of "She seduced me and i had to rape her because she was wearing only a bikini!"

Nor do I. The actual self control is being horny and not acting upon it.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/19/2010 7:26:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/19/2010 6:45:58 AM, belle wrote:
At 8/18/2010 11:15:47 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I SAID isn't it pretty to think so... in response to your saying what muslim men believe.

AS IF I was saying it would be "pretty" to think so....

which is kind of hilarious given that you (the sigger of the quote) prolly wouldn't find that thought being more widespread very "pretty".

except why would you think its pretty to think so? you're not religious.... so it wouldn't make much of a difference to you... would it? o.O

perhaps you'll find this childish...

but it's often , at least semi-, purposeful when I say sexist type things.

for some reason getting feminists in a huff is kind of amusing to me.

you're just not quite as much fun :l
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."