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Theist. Drug use in religions...

Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?

Can working ones self up into a trance help suppress mankind's natural self-centered nature to experience the spiritual?

Could an hypnotic state, or suggestive state be actually dangerous to spiritual progression? Such as opening a person up to darker influences.
ranchero
Posts: 36
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7/12/2015 8:42:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?

I have met several people who have learned there is a God by using LSD.

Can working ones self up into a trance help suppress mankind's natural self-centered nature to experience the spiritual?

I have met people who have done this and came to believe in God.

Could an hypnotic state, or suggestive state be actually dangerous to spiritual progression? Such as opening a person up to darker influences. : :

Hypnotism is used in many different ways to influence people. Many religious leaders use hypnotism ( power of suggestion ) to influence their followers.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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7/12/2015 10:42:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The use of mind altering chemicals is the art of sorcery, which is a type of magic.

Magic is the utilization of belief as a tool or indirect means of achieving something.

I wouldn't normally advocate the use of drugs, but some people are so narrow minded, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of drugs being used to expand someone's mind.

That said, I have a particular disdain for pseudo-spiritual phony new age types.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Najs
Posts: 113
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7/13/2015 12:47:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?


Possibly, at least in reference to marijuana. In Hinduism, Rastafarianism, Judaism (knei bosem), Taoism, Buddhism, etc

http://www.religionfacts.com...

Can working ones self up into a trance help suppress mankind's natural self-centered nature to experience the spiritual?


Many say they have been able to do so: cannabis-induced trance.

Could an hypnotic state, or suggestive state be actually dangerous to spiritual progression? Such as opening a person up to darker influences.


Yes.
Mhykiel
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7/13/2015 8:22:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 12:47:16 AM, Najs wrote:
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?


Possibly, at least in reference to marijuana. In Hinduism, Rastafarianism, Judaism (knei bosem), Taoism, Buddhism, etc

http://www.religionfacts.com...

Can working ones self up into a trance help suppress mankind's natural self-centered nature to experience the spiritual?


Many say they have been able to do so: cannabis-induced trance.

Could an hypnotic state, or suggestive state be actually dangerous to spiritual progression? Such as opening a person up to darker influences.


Yes.

If it is possible for drugs to heighten or encourage spiritual awareness, would this be an indication that structures in the brain directly relate to a spiritual realm or matter.

How can we discern the awakened state from a drug induced delusion?
ironslippers
Posts: 511
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7/13/2015 8:25:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Carlos Castaneda
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/13/2015 8:50:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?

Can working ones self up into a trance help suppress mankind's natural self-centered nature to experience the spiritual?

Could an hypnotic state, or suggestive state be actually dangerous to spiritual progression? Such as opening a person up to darker influences.

Sure, drug usage, especially of those in the hallucinogen family, like LSD, mescaline, and peyote can and have--countless times through history--provided folks with religious experiences. And visions!

For example the Native American Church uses peyote for their so-called Vision Quests. Where you find your spirit animal.

And when I was a psych tech at a county-run mental health facility we would get guys in all the time suffering from "God delusions" from taking LSD. And in controlled science and lab settings, we have induced religious experience through not only drug usage, but also with electro-stimulation on the pertinent parts of the brain.

Timothy Leary talked at length about all this stuff, back in his heyday.

Can it be dangerous? Sure. Continued usage of ANY drug certainly can. For overall mental health as well as for one's spiritual progression. (I differentiate, mind you, between religious and spiritual growth. You do not need the former to have the latter!)

I have always felt that the fact that drugs can induce somebody to have a religious experience, or see God is just another example of how it is all in the mind. A product of aberrant brain chemistry. If God were true, would he not just use the so-called Holy Spirit? And reserve the experience of Him to true believers? LOL. But no, seems anybody who messes up there brain chemistry can be a person of God!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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7/13/2015 8:53:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here's an example of all that drug induced and electro-induced Religious Experience I just spoke of. Seems that brain-imaging techniques have proved that God is all in the brain, amigos! Just another type of hallucination!

http://science.howstuffworks.com...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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7/13/2015 8:58:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 12:47:16 AM, Najs wrote:
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?


Possibly, at least in reference to marijuana. In Hinduism, Rastafarianism, Judaism (knei bosem), Taoism, Buddhism, etc

http://www.religionfacts.com...

Can working ones self up into a trance help suppress mankind's natural self-centered nature to experience the spiritual?


Many say they have been able to do so: cannabis-induced trance.

Could an hypnotic state, or suggestive state be actually dangerous to spiritual progression? Such as opening a person up to darker influences.


Yes.

Since God and religion are all symptoms of aberrant brain chemistry, it stands to reason that drugs can induce them. Even in former non-believers! LOL.

We have also done it with electro-stimulation to the temporal lobes. And via brain-imaging technology, like with the SPECT we can actually see the pertinent parts of the brain light-up when the subject is having the induced (false!) experience.

If God were real, why would he allow this? Why would he not work through the alleged Holy Spirit in order to induce the experience of Him? And why would he allow pagans (LOL--non-believers) to experience Him with drugs and electro-stim? Instead of reserving that "pure" experience for only his Faithful?

I have always been of the mind that the fact we can induce religion and god in somebody's brain with artificial methods is yet another example that God is all in your mind. Like an Imaginary Friend!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Double_R
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7/13/2015 9:00:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

On opening like that does not deserve any respect.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/13/2015 9:09:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
An except from the great book "Religion Explained" by Neurologist Pascal Boyer.....

Many psychologists, scientists and researchers have come to the conclusion that religion is a by-product of otherwise-normal processes in the brain. A theory of religion developed by Stark and Bainbridge (1987) "is both cognitive in nature and fundamentally atheistic", being rooted in the idea that the information-processing and language-producing functions of our brain are not perfect as they evolved for practical purposes only, and when they are applied to theoretical issues they result in faulty conclusions and perceptions. Lawrence Krauss notes that "we are hardwired to think that everything that happens to us is significant and meaningful"22. Certain types of stimulus are misunderstood and some of these processes cause us to hold religious beliefs.23

Pascal Boyer throughout "Religion Explained" (2001) argues that a panoply of psychological factors explains religion, explains why religion is successful and why we are inclined to believe in it and find religious arguments plausible, and also explains why it does not appeal universally, and explains why it is partially persistent even in the face of science24.

Other human behaviours also result from misapplied cognitive functions. Our enjoyment of music is the result of a side-effect of our complicated auditory systems in the brain and a lot of other behaviours are of a similar ilk: an over-stimulation or a misuse of a built-in system. Figurative art is another area Boyer uses as an example of our embrace of artificial stimulation of parts of our brain (object and face recognition, etc). These parts of the brain would normally have a purely practical function. According to Boyer religion isn't a case of 'neuronal dysfunction' as I say, but more like a case of misdirected, overstimulated, or inappropriately applied cognitive functions25.

Bolding is mine. Just to help you guys understand a bit better!

Thanks.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/13/2015 9:36:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Oh, please, atheists, take your idiotic irrational anti-spiritual rants someplace else as it's just boring crap to us theists, boring and utterly untrue as I keep telling atheists that without actual spiritual consciousness experience they're only going on hearsay of other atheists. It's amusing to see atheist "science" explain how one can induce religious experience with a variety of methods as our human brains are created for spiritual consciousness processing, and then they make the irrational jump that such religious experiences "prove" its all made up. As if giving a dead frog a galvanic electric shock that make its leg jump or heart beat means its' "alive".

I am a full veteran of the psychedelic '60's and know pretty much how powerful psychedelics like LSD can induce spiritual consciousness although it never did that with me, nor did any of the hallucinogens I've tried in my youthful hippie days. It took another form of mental escape from "normal" consciousness for me to experience God and that happened with a fever stemming from a low grade infection in my lymph system. It does take something to get one out of "normal" consciousness to experience spiritual phenomena but for me, the powerful psychedelics didn't do it. Marijuana, coming in as the world's most benign intoxicant does work for me as a gentle spiritual consciousness enhancer and I do recommend it for reaching spiritual consciousness as well as a damn good way to relax from the daily grind.

As I seem to be on the cutting edge of Christian spirituality these days, and as I do use pot in my daily life that includes hours of theological discussion work, I think there's no way for our "natural" high advocates, usually in the Hindu or Buddhist camps, can diss the results of Christian visionary progress since Christian culture and not Hindu or Buddhist culture leads the world in most every area of human expertise.
Saint_of_Me
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7/13/2015 9:43:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 9:36:56 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Oh, please, atheists, take your idiotic irrational anti-spiritual rants someplace else as it's just boring crap to us theists, boring and utterly untrue as I keep telling atheists that without actual spiritual consciousness experience they're only going on hearsay of other atheists. It's amusing to see atheist "science" explain how one can induce religious experience with a variety of methods as our human brains are created for spiritual consciousness processing, and then they make the irrational jump that such religious experiences "prove" its all made up. As if giving a dead frog a galvanic electric shock that make its leg jump or heart beat means its' "alive".

I am a full veteran of the psychedelic '60's and know pretty much how powerful psychedelics like LSD can induce spiritual consciousness although it never did that with me, nor did any of the hallucinogens I've tried in my youthful hippie days. It took another form of mental escape from "normal" consciousness for me to experience God and that happened with a fever stemming from a low grade infection in my lymph system. It does take something to get one out of "normal" consciousness to experience spiritual phenomena but for me, the powerful psychedelics didn't do it. Marijuana, coming in as the world's most benign intoxicant does work for me as a gentle spiritual consciousness enhancer and I do recommend it for reaching spiritual consciousness as well as a damn good way to relax from the daily grind.

As I seem to be on the cutting edge of Christian spirituality these days, and as I do use pot in my daily life that includes hours of theological discussion work, I think there's no way for our "natural" high advocates, usually in the Hindu or Buddhist camps, can diss the results of Christian visionary progress since Christian culture and not Hindu or Buddhist culture leads the world in most every area of human expertise.

So, you said that you were...... a full veteran of the psychedelic '60's and know pretty much how powerful psychedelics like LSD can induce spiritual consciousness."

Thanks. That explains a lot about some of your past posts. As well as this one.

"Boring Atheist Crap" to a drug-damaged mind = true science fact for the rational and intelligent one.

Thanks for sharing, though!

LOL
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/13/2015 10:02:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 9:09:26 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
An except from the great book "Religion Explained" by Neurologist Pascal Boyer.....


Many psychologists, scientists and researchers have come to the conclusion that religion is a by-product of otherwise-normal processes in the brain. A theory of religion developed by Stark and Bainbridge (1987) "is both cognitive in nature and fundamentally atheistic", being rooted in the idea that the information-processing and language-producing functions of our brain are not perfect as they evolved for practical purposes only, and when they are applied to theoretical issues they result in faulty conclusions and perceptions. Lawrence Krauss notes that "we are hardwired to think that everything that happens to us is significant and meaningful"22. Certain types of stimulus are misunderstood and some of these processes cause us to hold religious beliefs.23

Pascal Boyer throughout "Religion Explained" (2001) argues that a panoply of psychological factors explains religion, explains why religion is successful and why we are inclined to believe in it and find religious arguments plausible, and also explains why it does not appeal universally, and explains why it is partially persistent even in the face of science24.

Other human behaviours also result from misapplied cognitive functions. Our enjoyment of music is the result of a side-effect of our complicated auditory systems in the brain and a lot of other behaviours are of a similar ilk: an over-stimulation or a misuse of a built-in system. Figurative art is another area Boyer uses as an example of our embrace of artificial stimulation of parts of our brain (object and face recognition, etc). These parts of the brain would normally have a purely practical function. According to Boyer religion isn't a case of 'neuronal dysfunction' as I say, but more like a case of misdirected, overstimulated, or inappropriately applied cognitive functions25.


Bolding is mine. Just to help you guys understand a bit better!

Thanks.

Thanks Saint, I think your posts really summed up some of the best religious experience induced aspect.

I however disagree with the logic of the statement that what was induced in a laboratory experiment means it is all in the mind.

As you said some strange perceptions can be induced with strong magnetic fields. Wouldn't that be evidence that supports when people have experiences like "other people in the room" that they are reacting to strong magnetic electrical fields?

I find the the fact that experiences like this can be induced only help in finding the body-mind connection. That at least some of the spiritual experiences are not from brain malfunction but in reaction to external stimuli signified by intense fields.
SamStevens
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7/13/2015 10:24:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

Explain. Correct me if I am wrong, but you assume mutual respect and rational examination can not take place if an atheist is in the discussion.

Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?

Can working ones self up into a trance help suppress mankind's natural self-centered nature to experience the spiritual?

Could an hypnotic state, or suggestive state be actually dangerous to spiritual progression? Such as opening a person up to darker influences.

It depends on the belief. People who ascribe to the Rastafari movement "believe cannabis, which they call "ganja", "the herb," or "Kaya" is a sacred gift of Jah and may be used for spiritual purposes to commune with God"(Religion and drugs Wikipedia).
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
Mhykiel
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7/13/2015 10:37:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 10:24:17 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

Explain. Correct me if I am wrong, but you assume mutual respect and rational examination can not take place if an atheist is in the discussion.

Well there is a period between both of those sentences. So I am asking that Atheist don't respond. because I am interested in drug use and spiritual experiences. The Atheist generally will show up and just say prove God exists, or that spiritual experiences are fake.

Obviously in an intellectual discussion when addressing a question like the one I asked certain presuppositions are accepted by those in the discussion. Like if i asked "What if life on another planet had a blue giant as their sun?" It would be petty and trolling if someone kept interjecting "Prove there's alien life on any planet!"

The second sentence is saying what I am interested in having. When talking about spiritual experiences I don't want the thread derailed by the common assertions of Atheist.


Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?

Can working ones self up into a trance help suppress mankind's natural self-centered nature to experience the spiritual?

Could an hypnotic state, or suggestive state be actually dangerous to spiritual progression? Such as opening a person up to darker influences.

It depends on the belief. People who ascribe to the Rastafari movement "believe cannabis, which they call "ganja", "the herb," or "Kaya" is a sacred gift of Jah and may be used for spiritual purposes to commune with God"(Religion and drugs Wikipedia).

Well I understand people have the belief that drug use aids in spiritual experience. I'm curious what theories there are for the mechanics of such an interaction.
SamStevens
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7/13/2015 10:53:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 10:37:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/13/2015 10:24:17 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

Explain. Correct me if I am wrong, but you assume mutual respect and rational examination can not take place if an atheist is in the discussion.

Well there is a period between both of those sentences. So I am asking that Atheist don't respond. because I am interested in drug use and spiritual experiences. The Atheist generally will show up and just say prove God exists, or that spiritual experiences are fake.

Obviously in an intellectual discussion when addressing a question like the one I asked certain presuppositions are accepted by those in the discussion. Like if i asked "What if life on another planet had a blue giant as their sun?" It would be petty and trolling if someone kept interjecting "Prove there's alien life on any planet!"

Okay

The second sentence is saying what I am interested in having. When talking about spiritual experiences I don't want the thread derailed by the common assertions of Atheist.

Well, those assertions can come from anyone, just not atheists.


Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?

Can working ones self up into a trance help suppress mankind's natural self-centered nature to experience the spiritual?

Could an hypnotic state, or suggestive state be actually dangerous to spiritual progression? Such as opening a person up to darker influences.

It depends on the belief. People who ascribe to the Rastafari movement "believe cannabis, which they call "ganja", "the herb," or "Kaya" is a sacred gift of Jah and may be used for spiritual purposes to commune with God"(Religion and drugs Wikipedia).

Well I understand people have the belief that drug use aids in spiritual experience. I'm curious what theories there are for the mechanics of such an interaction.

So after some research as a laymen, it can be concluded that cannabis can alter one's state of consciousness; by doing so, people can view reality from a different perspective.

http://www.collective-evolution.com...
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
Illegalcombatant
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7/15/2015 9:04:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?

Can working ones self up into a trance help suppress mankind's natural self-centered nature to experience the spiritual?

Could an hypnotic state, or suggestive state be actually dangerous to spiritual progression? Such as opening a person up to darker influences.

Say NO TO DRUGS !!!

Winners don't use drugs !!!

This message has being bought to you by the 80's, in partnership with music that was cool, big hair and a big middle class who could afford home/land ownership.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
jkerr3
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7/15/2015 12:22:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 10:42:19 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The use of mind altering chemicals is the art of sorcery, which is a type of magic.

Magic is the utilization of belief as a tool or indirect means of achieving something.


I wouldn't normally advocate the use of drugs, but some people are so narrow minded, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of drugs being used to expand someone's mind.

That said, I have a particular disdain for pseudo-spiritual phony new age types.

Lol I don't think getting high is sorcery......
kasmic
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7/15/2015 12:33:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

I know you said no atheist, but I think my view will add positively to the discussion.

Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?

I don't think it would be real religious experience. If someone believes in God, why would deadening "God given" senses induce a religious experience?
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UniversalTheologian
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7/15/2015 4:57:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/15/2015 12:22:52 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:42:19 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The use of mind altering chemicals is the art of sorcery, which is a type of magic.

Magic is the utilization of belief as a tool or indirect means of achieving something.


I wouldn't normally advocate the use of drugs, but some people are so narrow minded, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of drugs being used to expand someone's mind.

That said, I have a particular disdain for pseudo-spiritual phony new age types.

Lol I don't think getting high is sorcery......

The Greek word for sorcery, "pharmakeus" used to specifically refer to those who performed magic through the use of drugs or mind altering substances. That same Greek word became the basis for the English words "Pharmacist", "pharmacy", "pharmaceutical" etc.

The more you know

*disappears in a rainbow*
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
jkerr3
Posts: 177
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7/15/2015 5:23:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/15/2015 4:57:01 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/15/2015 12:22:52 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:42:19 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The use of mind altering chemicals is the art of sorcery, which is a type of magic.

Magic is the utilization of belief as a tool or indirect means of achieving something.


I wouldn't normally advocate the use of drugs, but some people are so narrow minded, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of drugs being used to expand someone's mind.

That said, I have a particular disdain for pseudo-spiritual phony new age types.

Lol I don't think getting high is sorcery......

The Greek word for sorcery, "pharmakeus" used to specifically refer to those who performed magic through the use of drugs or mind altering substances. That same Greek word became the basis for the English words "Pharmacist", "pharmacy", "pharmaceutical" etc.

The more you know

*disappears in a rainbow*

The effects of drugs on the body is chemistry not magic lol, maybe it was considered magic 1000 years ago when people had a limited scientific knowledge.
Saint_of_Me
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7/15/2015 5:36:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 10:02:25 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/13/2015 9:09:26 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
An except from the great book "Religion Explained" by Neurologist Pascal Boyer.....


Many psychologists, scientists and researchers have come to the conclusion that religion is a by-product of otherwise-normal processes in the brain. A theory of religion developed by Stark and Bainbridge (1987) "is both cognitive in nature and fundamentally atheistic", being rooted in the idea that the information-processing and language-producing functions of our brain are not perfect as they evolved for practical purposes only, and when they are applied to theoretical issues they result in faulty conclusions and perceptions. Lawrence Krauss notes that "we are hardwired to think that everything that happens to us is significant and meaningful"22. Certain types of stimulus are misunderstood and some of these processes cause us to hold religious beliefs.23

Pascal Boyer throughout "Religion Explained" (2001) argues that a panoply of psychological factors explains religion, explains why religion is successful and why we are inclined to believe in it and find religious arguments plausible, and also explains why it does not appeal universally, and explains why it is partially persistent even in the face of science24.

Other human behaviours also result from misapplied cognitive functions. Our enjoyment of music is the result of a side-effect of our complicated auditory systems in the brain and a lot of other behaviours are of a similar ilk: an over-stimulation or a misuse of a built-in system. Figurative art is another area Boyer uses as an example of our embrace of artificial stimulation of parts of our brain (object and face recognition, etc). These parts of the brain would normally have a purely practical function. According to Boyer religion isn't a case of 'neuronal dysfunction' as I say, but more like a case of misdirected, overstimulated, or inappropriately applied cognitive functions25.


Bolding is mine. Just to help you guys understand a bit better!

Thanks.

Thanks Saint, I think your posts really summed up some of the best religious experience induced aspect.

I however disagree with the logic of the statement that what was induced in a laboratory experiment means it is all in the mind.

As you said some strange perceptions can be induced with strong magnetic fields. Wouldn't that be evidence that supports when people have experiences like "other people in the room" that they are reacting to strong magnetic electrical fields?

I find the the fact that experiences like this can be induced only help in finding the body-mind connection. That at least some of the spiritual experiences are not from brain malfunction but in reaction to external stimuli signified by intense fields.

Not "strong magnetic fields" but rather direct sub-cutaneous electric stimulation via electrodes implanted into the scalp covering the pertinent areas of the brain in which we believe religious experiences occur.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
UniversalTheologian
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7/15/2015 5:48:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/15/2015 5:23:59 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
The effects of drugs on the body is chemistry not magic lol, maybe it was considered magic 1000 years ago when people had a limited scientific knowledge.

At 7/12/2015 10:42:19 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Magic is the utilization of belief as a tool or indirect means of achieving something.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Saint_of_Me
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7/15/2015 5:51:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
From an article written by a man who underwent TMS (trans-cranial magnetic stimulation)....

"Scientists have developed a device, called a transcranial magnetic stimulator, that can be used to stimulate small areas of the brain. Depending on which area of the brain is stimulated, different effects are produced; for example, stimulating parts of the motor cortex causes muscular contractions.
The device can, for some people, be used to create religious experiences. Using the transcranial magnetic stimulator to apply a magnetic field to the temporal lobes can cause people to experience God. This phenomenon is not limited only to believers; even atheists can be caused to have religious experiences using the transcranial magnetic stimulator.
The fact that this works for some people suggests that the temporal lobes play a role in religious experience. This is supported by the fact that some sufferers of temporal lobe epilepsy, a condition that consists in having seizures centred around intense electrical activity in the temporal lobes, report that during seizures they have profound religious experiences. V S Ramachandran describes this:

Most remarkable of all are those patients who have deeply moving spiritual experiences, including a feeling of divine presence and the sense that they are in direct communication with God. Everything around them is imbued with cosmic significance. They may say, "I finally understand what it"s all about. This is the moment I"ve been waiting for all my life. Suddenly it all makes sense." Or, "Finally I have insight into the true nature of the cosmos."

God has vouchsafed for us "normal" people only occasional glimpses of a deeper truth...but these patients enjoy the unique privilege of gazing directly into God"s eyes every time they have a seizure." [V S Ramachandran & Sandra Blakeslee, Phantoms in the Brain, Fourth Estate Limited (1998), p179]

Religious experiences, then, appear to be simply events in the brain; they need not be experiences of anything real at all.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Mhykiel
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7/15/2015 6:32:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/15/2015 5:36:27 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/13/2015 10:02:25 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/13/2015 9:09:26 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
An except from the great book "Religion Explained" by Neurologist Pascal Boyer.....


Many psychologists, scientists and researchers have come to the conclusion that religion is a by-product of otherwise-normal processes in the brain. A theory of religion developed by Stark and Bainbridge (1987) "is both cognitive in nature and fundamentally atheistic", being rooted in the idea that the information-processing and language-producing functions of our brain are not perfect as they evolved for practical purposes only, and when they are applied to theoretical issues they result in faulty conclusions and perceptions. Lawrence Krauss notes that "we are hardwired to think that everything that happens to us is significant and meaningful"22. Certain types of stimulus are misunderstood and some of these processes cause us to hold religious beliefs.23

Pascal Boyer throughout "Religion Explained" (2001) argues that a panoply of psychological factors explains religion, explains why religion is successful and why we are inclined to believe in it and find religious arguments plausible, and also explains why it does not appeal universally, and explains why it is partially persistent even in the face of science24.

Other human behaviours also result from misapplied cognitive functions. Our enjoyment of music is the result of a side-effect of our complicated auditory systems in the brain and a lot of other behaviours are of a similar ilk: an over-stimulation or a misuse of a built-in system. Figurative art is another area Boyer uses as an example of our embrace of artificial stimulation of parts of our brain (object and face recognition, etc). These parts of the brain would normally have a purely practical function. According to Boyer religion isn't a case of 'neuronal dysfunction' as I say, but more like a case of misdirected, overstimulated, or inappropriately applied cognitive functions25.


Bolding is mine. Just to help you guys understand a bit better!

Thanks.

Thanks Saint, I think your posts really summed up some of the best religious experience induced aspect.

I however disagree with the logic of the statement that what was induced in a laboratory experiment means it is all in the mind.

As you said some strange perceptions can be induced with strong magnetic fields. Wouldn't that be evidence that supports when people have experiences like "other people in the room" that they are reacting to strong magnetic electrical fields?

I find the the fact that experiences like this can be induced only help in finding the body-mind connection. That at least some of the spiritual experiences are not from brain malfunction but in reaction to external stimuli signified by intense fields.

Not "strong magnetic fields" but rather direct sub-cutaneous electric stimulation via electrodes implanted into the scalp covering the pertinent areas of the brain in which we believe religious experiences occur.

It's also been induced with magnetic fields.

Look we can't see or feel x-rays. There's no drug or probing of the brain that will make a person even think they see xrays.

So for a delusion to occur there must be the capability to percieve the actual.

So the induced experiences in a closed labratory may point to what external stimulation is happening in real life spiritual experiences.

So you haven't given a logical argument to why I should accept all spiritual experiences as delusions.
jkerr3
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7/15/2015 6:50:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/15/2015 5:48:20 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/15/2015 5:23:59 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
The effects of drugs on the body is chemistry not magic lol, maybe it was considered magic 1000 years ago when people had a limited scientific knowledge.

At 7/12/2015 10:42:19 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Magic is the utilization of belief as a tool or indirect means of achieving something.

I'm not sure where you got the definition from but the Webster definition of magic is "the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.". There is really nothing mysterious or supernatural about drugs, it's pretty well understood the effects they have on the brain.
Mhykiel
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7/15/2015 6:59:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/15/2015 12:33:59 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

I know you said no atheist, but I think my view will add positively to the discussion.

Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?

I don't think it would be real religious experience. If someone believes in God, why would deadening "God given" senses induce a religious experience?

Thanks kasmic, that is an interesting point.

The drug would also be made by God. And maybe made for the purpose of spiritual ritual.

Pain is a useful perception. but sometimes pain can distract a person from thinking clearly.

One might think that for a spiritual experience some other perceptions or thoughts will have to be subdued.

Also what do you think about in a judeo-christian theology where mankind is a fallen creature. So the senses and mental capacity for spiritual awareness is greatly diminished?
Vox_Veritas
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7/15/2015 7:07:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 6:02:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Please No Atheist reply. I'm only interested in discussion with mutual respect and rational examination.

Does ritual drug use being about real religious experiences?

No. Going into a trance does not bring about a greater sensation of the spiritual. This reality is physical, and that's all which we may perceive in this reality unless the spiritual explicitly shows itself to us. If the spiritual doesn't do that, then as long as your consciousness is centered in this physical Universe you won't be able to experience the spiritual.

Can working ones self up into a trance help suppress mankind's natural self-centered nature to experience the spiritual?

Could an hypnotic state, or suggestive state be actually dangerous to spiritual progression? Such as opening a person up to darker influences.

It is possible, though, that the use of drugs may cause the spiritual to reveal itself to you (demons may take advantage of your loss of bodily and mental control over yourself to possess you, though this isn't likely to ever happen to you).
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Vox_Veritas
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7/15/2015 7:10:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Now, if you were to go kill yourself you'd experience the spiritual reality pretty quickly, because your connection to the physical would be severed through the loss of your consciousness's physical vessel's ability to function properly.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid