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Theophobia

UniversalTheologian
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7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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7/12/2015 10:27:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.

Apotenxenophobia

The irrational fear of any idea that rejects the concept of a universe without an all powerful alien entity.
UniversalTheologian
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7/12/2015 10:37:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The concept of "Truth" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something lousy they do into something good.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of hedonism won't lead to inner peace. It's a fools game.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
ranchero
Posts: 36
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7/12/2015 11:49:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 10:37:11 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The concept of "Truth" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something lousy they do into something good.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of hedonism won't lead to inner peace. It's a fools game. : :

That depends on what "Truth" is. What is Truth to you?
dee-em
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7/13/2015 12:18:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 10:37:11 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The concept of "Truth" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something lousy they do into something good.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of hedonism won't lead to inner peace. It's a fools game.

The concept of "Death" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something irrational they have to accept into a belief.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of piousness won't lead to a craved afterlife. It's a fools game.
RuvDraba
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7/13/2015 12:46:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.

While there is a diagnosable phobia called theophobia, there has been a misrepresentative attempt lately (presumably by militant Christian proselytes) to equate it to irreligion or conscientious religious objection, and picking the term up without qualifying it appears to be tapping into that.

See for example, the fabricated Wikipedia entry: [https://en.wikipedia.org...] with its pseudodiagnostic criteria. Note the lack of reference to a reputable psychological diagnostic manual, like the DSM-5. [https://en.wikipedia.org...] Note too the poor quality of the two 'published' references -- both badly-structured polemics written from a Christian theological perspective.

For those interested in why religious objection is not a clinical phobia, I sketch some differences below.

By way of background, religious nones make up around 20% of modern US [http://www.pewforum.org...] however only 12.5% of people are diagnosed with any phobia in their lifetime, and less than 9% in any one year, with fear of heights, falling and spiders being among the most prevalent. [http://www.nimh.nih.gov...]

Many nontheists are also former people of faith -- 65% of atheist respondents worldwide are former Christians, while 10% are former Muslims. [http://www.atheistcensus.com...] So if atheists haven't simply rejected their own former faith, but rather are afraid of it, what made them scared?

Finally, with a US irreligion rate of 20%, most US nontheists have family, friends, loved-ones and bosses who are people of faith -- as most people afraid of gays or Muslims tend not to have.

So my suggestion, when paternalist theocrats start trying to tell you that atheism is a phobia rather than a rational position, tell them it's not paranoia when they are out to get you. :)

Hope that might help. :D
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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7/13/2015 12:53:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 12:46:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.

While there is a diagnosable phobia called theophobia, there has been a misrepresentative attempt lately (presumably by militant Christian proselytes) to equate it to irreligion or conscientious religious objection, and picking the term up without qualifying it appears to be tapping into that.

See for example, the fabricated Wikipedia entry: [https://en.wikipedia.org...] with its pseudodiagnostic criteria. Note the lack of reference to a reputable psychological diagnostic manual, like the DSM-5. [https://en.wikipedia.org...] Note too the poor quality of the two 'published' references -- both badly-structured polemics written from a Christian theological perspective.

For those interested in why religious objection is not a clinical phobia, I sketch some differences below.

By way of background, religious nones make up around 20% of modern US [http://www.pewforum.org...] however only 12.5% of people are diagnosed with any phobia in their lifetime, and less than 9% in any one year, with fear of heights, falling and spiders being among the most prevalent. [http://www.nimh.nih.gov...]

Many nontheists are also former people of faith -- 65% of atheist respondents worldwide are former Christians, while 10% are former Muslims. [http://www.atheistcensus.com...] So if atheists haven't simply rejected their own former faith, but rather are afraid of it, what made them scared?

Finally, with a US irreligion rate of 20%, most US nontheists have family, friends, loved-ones and bosses who are people of faith -- as most people afraid of gays or Muslims tend not to have.

So my suggestion, when paternalist theocrats start trying to tell you that atheism is a phobia rather than a rational position, tell them it's not paranoia when they are out to get you. :)

Hope that might help. :D

Well done, matey
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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7/13/2015 4:35:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 10:37:11 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The concept of "Truth" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something lousy they do into something good.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of hedonism won't lead to inner peace. It's a fools game.
What TRUTH? Where the Bible is concerned there is no verifiable evidence to support it!
UniversalTheologian
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7/13/2015 8:31:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 11:49:09 PM, ranchero wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:37:11 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The concept of "Truth" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something lousy they do into something good.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of hedonism won't lead to inner peace. It's a fools game. : :

That depends on what "Truth" is. What is Truth to you?

No, no, you are attaching to much baggage.

"Truth".

There is only one "Truth". There are many truths, but only One Truth.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
UniversalTheologian
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7/13/2015 8:31:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 12:18:14 AM, dee-em wrote:

The concept of "Death" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something irrational they have to accept into a belief.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of piousness won't lead to a craved afterlife. It's a fools game.

Do you believe that the world goes on after you are dead? Do you believe in the future?

You believe in an afterlife.

Do I believe that I will retain my ego after death? No, I do not. That isn't the part of me that is eternal.

I agree with you. You can't be bribed into "Truth", "Truth" has to be the goal in itself.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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7/13/2015 8:40:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 12:46:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.

While there is a diagnosable phobia called theophobia, there has been a misrepresentative attempt lately (presumably by militant Christian proselytes) to equate it to irreligion or conscientious religious objection, and picking the term up without qualifying it appears to be tapping into that.

See for example, the fabricated Wikipedia entry: [https://en.wikipedia.org...] with its pseudodiagnostic criteria. Note the lack of reference to a reputable psychological diagnostic manual, like the DSM-5. [https://en.wikipedia.org...] Note too the poor quality of the two 'published' references -- both badly-structured polemics written from a Christian theological perspective.

For those interested in why religious objection is not a clinical phobia, I sketch some differences below.

By way of background, religious nones make up around 20% of modern US [http://www.pewforum.org...] however only 12.5% of people are diagnosed with any phobia in their lifetime, and less than 9% in any one year, with fear of heights, falling and spiders being among the most prevalent. [http://www.nimh.nih.gov...]

Many nontheists are also former people of faith -- 65% of atheist respondents worldwide are former Christians, while 10% are former Muslims. [http://www.atheistcensus.com...] So if atheists haven't simply rejected their own former faith, but rather are afraid of it, what made them scared?

Finally, with a US irreligion rate of 20%, most US nontheists have family, friends, loved-ones and bosses who are people of faith -- as most people afraid of gays or Muslims tend not to have.

So my suggestion, when paternalist theocrats start trying to tell you that atheism is a phobia rather than a rational position, tell them it's not paranoia when they are out to get you. :)

Hope that might help. :D

Let me make my position clear.

When you are talking to someone who isn't even willing to understand the concepts they say are false, and refuse to make any attempt whatsoever to be helped into understanding what these things mean, they are being theophobic.

You know, it baffles me that one could bend over backwards in order to understand another person's position, and not be given that same courtesy.

Think reasonably for a moment. How effective do you think you are going to be at convincing me of your position if you aren't even willing to take the time to understand it? How effective do you think you are going to be at having a meaningful discussion with me when you tell me what I believe, I tell you that you are mistaken, and you respond by telling me that you know better what I believe than I do?

It's sub-mongoloid level stupidity, and it is coupled with the most self destructive arrogance.

Theology is a very misunderstood subject. Most people don't understand these things, and most people's beefs with these things are not based on honest evaluation.

What, you don't like God because God does bad things? What, you don't like God because people suck? What you don't like God because you don't understand the concept of a metaphor? What, you don't like God because you don't understand something on first reading it?

It takes discipline to study scripture and understand it, and most people don't have that discipline.

I am a theologian. I'm an ascetic. I talk with other theologians. We have common understanding. Our language means something, it isn't just the spooky nonsense the shamans of this world turn it into.

But how are you going to figure this stuff out if you are already right in your own mind?

You know, I'm trying to make clear the mysteries in such a way that people realize that it isn't all nonsense, and is actually worth looking into. I don't expect to get people to understand anything I say, that is something only God can do.

I speak plainly and lucidly, yet people have too much baggage attached to the words I'm using. On top of that, it's really hard to get people to expand on their narrow understanding of linguistics.

How absurd it is to try to express what is infinite through finite language!

I assure you, people have been banging their heads against the wall for thousands of years trying to pass down this hidden information. Thankfully I understand the futility of doing it through methods that don't involve discipleship.

Ah, we are called to be fools for Christ.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
dee-em
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7/13/2015 9:43:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 8:31:53 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/13/2015 12:18:14 AM, dee-em wrote:

The concept of "Death" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something irrational they have to accept into a belief.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of piousness won't lead to a craved afterlife. It's a fools game.

Do you believe that the world goes on after you are dead? Do you believe in the future?

Yes.

You believe in an afterlife.

Not for me.

Do I believe that I will retain my ego after death? No, I do not. That isn't the part of me that is eternal.

I'm not really interested in what you believe. What do you have evidence for?

I agree with you. You can't be bribed into "Truth", "Truth" has to be the goal in itself.

What is this "Truth" of which you speak and why should I have cause to fear it?
UniversalTheologian
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7/13/2015 9:55:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 9:43:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
What is this "Truth" of which you speak and why should I have cause to fear it?

Quite the opposite, you shouldn't fear Truth, you should embrace it.

The name "Jesus" means "God Saves". God is understood in theology to be The Ultimate Reality and The Highest Truth.

People don't understand that the message of Jesus Christ is not religion, but the simple statement, "The Truth shall set you free".

People get hung up on the religions that spring from these things, and it keeps them from getting to the core of the message, which no person in their right mind could possibly find fault with.

This is not a statement of arrogance. If you actually understand these things, there won't be any controversy.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
dee-em
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7/13/2015 10:14:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 9:55:17 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/13/2015 9:43:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
What is this "Truth" of which you speak and why should I have cause to fear it?

Quite the opposite, you shouldn't fear Truth, you should embrace it.

But in post #4 you said "The concept of 'Truth' is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid..."

I'll repeat my question. What is this "Truth" of which you speak and why should I have cause to fear it?

The name "Jesus" means "God Saves". God is understood in theology to be The Ultimate Reality and The Highest Truth.

So Truth = God? Then why call it Truth?

People don't understand that the message of Jesus Christ is not religion, but the simple statement, "The Truth shall set you free".

So God will set me free. Free from what?

People get hung up on the religions that spring from these things, and it keeps them from getting to the core of the message, which no person in their right mind could possibly find fault with.

I'm having trouble just understanding it since you can't state things intelligibly.

This is not a statement of arrogance. If you actually understand these things, there won't be any controversy.

Okay. So far we have that Truth = God and some people find God frightening but God will set me free from something if ....?

Is that about it? I'm not clear exactly on what you want people to do. Just get this message? Worship? What?
UniversalTheologian
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7/13/2015 10:31:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 10:14:32 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/13/2015 9:55:17 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/13/2015 9:43:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
What is this "Truth" of which you speak and why should I have cause to fear it?

Quite the opposite, you shouldn't fear Truth, you should embrace it.

But in post #4 you said "The concept of 'Truth' is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid..."
I'll repeat my question. What is this "Truth" of which you speak and why should I have cause to fear it?

There is nothing to fear from Truth. The fear of Truth in itself is irrational.

Truth? The Way things are. What Is right, correct, independent of bias.

It's a word that points to something that is beyond words.


The name "Jesus" means "God Saves". God is understood in theology to be The Ultimate Reality and The Highest Truth.

So Truth = God? Then why call it Truth?

These are the things that happen when language evolves, and you translate things from older languages. The concepts that tend to get translated into the all encompassing word, "God" actually have meanings behind them.


People don't understand that the message of Jesus Christ is not religion, but the simple statement, "The Truth shall set you free".

So God will set me free. Free from what?

Slavery to passion, desire, perception, feelings, etc.

Or as the Buddha put it, cessation from suffering. Which, doesn't mean, as is commonly thought, that you won't experience pain of any sort, it allows you to have peace with it. To be comfortable in your own skin.

Besides that, it grants a certain clarity, an insight into how things really are that most people seem to be blind to. There are many gifts of the spirit.


People get hung up on the religions that spring from these things, and it keeps them from getting to the core of the message, which no person in their right mind could possibly find fault with.

I'm having trouble just understanding it since you can't state things intelligibly.

Pointing the finger at me because you do not understand something is not an effective way to establish communication. I am doing my best to be intelligible. I can only work with what I'm given.

Okay. So far we have that Truth = God and some people find God frightening but God will set me free from something if ....?

Is that about it? I'm not clear exactly on what you want people to do. Just get this message? Worship? What?

I don't really care what people do. It doesn't matter. I'm not attached to the results of my actions.

I would be pleased to see people open their minds to the idea that their current understandings might not be accurate.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
RuvDraba
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7/13/2015 11:40:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 8:40:22 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/13/2015 12:46:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.
While there is a diagnosable phobia called theophobia, there has been a misrepresentative attempt lately (presumably by militant Christian proselytes) to equate it to irreligion or conscientious religious objection, and picking the term up without qualifying it appears to be tapping into that.
When you are talking to someone who isn't even willing to understand the concepts they say are false, and refuse to make any attempt whatsoever to be helped into understanding what these things mean, they are being theophobic.

UT, nobody is obliged to waste even a moment listening to you hold forth on matters which you yourself know you cannot prove.

Nobody is obliged to tolerate the insult of you conflating their rejection of your unprovable beliefs with a serious mental disorder.

And the sufferers of that disorder should not be obliged to endure you inventing lies about their condition to further your ambitions to proselytise.

So what's really happening here? When others reject your 'UT knows best' preaching, it so incenses you that you want to open your own 'UT knows best' psychiatric clinic?

Have you considered that what many non-Christians most dislike most about your faith is its centuries of conceited paternalism? A paternalism to which you seem all to ready to lend a shoulder.

Whoever wrote that Wikipedia page I linked should be ashamed -- both as a member of a faith commanded to speak only truth, and as a human being who has abandoned intellectual integrity for the pursuit of self-importance.

You should be ashamed too, of this thread, and the conceit that spawned it.
UniversalTheologian
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7/13/2015 11:52:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 11:40:59 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/13/2015 8:40:22 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/13/2015 12:46:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.
While there is a diagnosable phobia called theophobia, there has been a misrepresentative attempt lately (presumably by militant Christian proselytes) to equate it to irreligion or conscientious religious objection, and picking the term up without qualifying it appears to be tapping into that.
When you are talking to someone who isn't even willing to understand the concepts they say are false, and refuse to make any attempt whatsoever to be helped into understanding what these things mean, they are being theophobic.

UT, nobody is obliged to waste even a moment listening to you hold forth on matters which you yourself know you cannot prove.

Nobody is obliged to tolerate the insult of you conflating their rejection of your unprovable beliefs with a serious mental disorder.

And the sufferers of that disorder should not be obliged to endure you inventing lies about their condition to further your ambitions to proselytise.

So what's really happening here? When others reject your 'UT knows best' preaching, it so incenses you that you want to open your own 'UT knows best' psychiatric clinic?

Have you considered that what many non-Christians most dislike most about your faith is its centuries of conceited paternalism? A paternalism to which you seem all to ready to lend a shoulder.

Whoever wrote that Wikipedia page I linked should be ashamed -- both as a member of a faith commanded to speak only truth, and as a human being who has abandoned intellectual integrity for the pursuit of self-importance.

You should be ashamed too, of this thread, and the conceit that spawned it.

Don't be base. This is a debate site. If you are going to debate with me on something, you better make sure you are on the same page as me. If you aren't talking about the same thing as me, you might as well be masturbating.

I'm not demanding that anyone listen to me. Go on and do what you want! Why should I care?

I am however, going to make fun of the very real phenomena of people accusing others of being "scared" to stifle any type of intelligent discussion. These are thought ending words.

But realize, I don't earnestly think that the people who are refuse to engage in honest conversation are scared. I think they are stupid. However, I patiently endure them knowing that history has shown how difficult the subject matter of my expertise is to communicate. I also am aware of how ridiculous these things sound on the surface.

These are things that people divide each other over, and they shouldn't.

People are lousy, and they will use any tool at their disposal to be lousy. Even if it means manipulating other people through their faiths.

These things have nothing to do with The Faith. People will do anything in order to satisfy their lusts, even if it means trampling over what is sacred.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
RuvDraba
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7/13/2015 11:58:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 11:52:39 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/13/2015 11:40:59 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/13/2015 8:40:22 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/13/2015 12:46:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.
While there is a diagnosable phobia called theophobia, there has been a misrepresentative attempt lately (presumably by militant Christian proselytes) to equate it to irreligion or conscientious religious objection, and picking the term up without qualifying it appears to be tapping into that.
When you are talking to someone who isn't even willing to understand the concepts they say are false, and refuse to make any attempt whatsoever to be helped into understanding what these things mean, they are being theophobic.

UT, nobody is obliged to waste even a moment listening to you hold forth on matters which you yourself know you cannot prove.

Nobody is obliged to tolerate the insult of you conflating their rejection of your unprovable beliefs with a serious mental disorder.

And the sufferers of that disorder should not be obliged to endure you inventing lies about their condition to further your ambitions to proselytise.

So what's really happening here? When others reject your 'UT knows best' preaching, it so incenses you that you want to open your own 'UT knows best' psychiatric clinic?

Have you considered that what many non-Christians most dislike most about your faith is its centuries of conceited paternalism? A paternalism to which you seem all to ready to lend a shoulder.

Whoever wrote that Wikipedia page I linked should be ashamed -- both as a member of a faith commanded to speak only truth, and as a human being who has abandoned intellectual integrity for the pursuit of self-importance.

You should be ashamed too, of this thread, and the conceit that spawned it.


This is a debate site. If you are going to debate with me on something, you better make sure you are on the same page as me.

That's odd, UT. Since you'd invoked a clinically diagnosable condition as your central subject, I thought you had proposed to defend the worth of making ignorant psychiatric misdiagnoses in pursuit of spreading the faith.

But if you haven't agreed to that, then what's this thread doing here at all, beyond leveling an ignorant insult whose truth you never intended to defend?
UndeniableReality
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7/13/2015 12:01:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 11:52:39 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/13/2015 11:40:59 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/13/2015 8:40:22 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/13/2015 12:46:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.
While there is a diagnosable phobia called theophobia, there has been a misrepresentative attempt lately (presumably by militant Christian proselytes) to equate it to irreligion or conscientious religious objection, and picking the term up without qualifying it appears to be tapping into that.
When you are talking to someone who isn't even willing to understand the concepts they say are false, and refuse to make any attempt whatsoever to be helped into understanding what these things mean, they are being theophobic.

UT, nobody is obliged to waste even a moment listening to you hold forth on matters which you yourself know you cannot prove.

Nobody is obliged to tolerate the insult of you conflating their rejection of your unprovable beliefs with a serious mental disorder.

And the sufferers of that disorder should not be obliged to endure you inventing lies about their condition to further your ambitions to proselytise.

So what's really happening here? When others reject your 'UT knows best' preaching, it so incenses you that you want to open your own 'UT knows best' psychiatric clinic?

Have you considered that what many non-Christians most dislike most about your faith is its centuries of conceited paternalism? A paternalism to which you seem all to ready to lend a shoulder.

Whoever wrote that Wikipedia page I linked should be ashamed -- both as a member of a faith commanded to speak only truth, and as a human being who has abandoned intellectual integrity for the pursuit of self-importance.

You should be ashamed too, of this thread, and the conceit that spawned it.


Don't be base. This is a debate site. If you are going to debate with me on something, you better make sure you are on the same page as me. If you aren't talking about the same thing as me, you might as well be masturbating.

I'm not demanding that anyone listen to me. Go on and do what you want! Why should I care?

I am however, going to make fun of the very real phenomena of people accusing others of being "scared" to stifle any type of intelligent discussion. These are thought ending words.

But realize, I don't earnestly think that the people who are refuse to engage in honest conversation are scared. I think they are stupid. However, I patiently endure them knowing that history has shown how difficult the subject matter of my expertise is to communicate. I also am aware of how ridiculous these things sound on the surface.

These are things that people divide each other over, and they shouldn't.

People are lousy, and they will use any tool at their disposal to be lousy. Even if it means manipulating other people through their faiths.

These things have nothing to do with The Faith. People will do anything in order to satisfy their lusts, even if it means trampling over what is sacred.

Are you talking about yourself, or everyone except yourself and the people you choose to exclude?
Saint_of_Me
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7/13/2015 6:57:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.

OK..so, I just flipped through my boss's DSM-V and, what do ya know? Found no mention of the Dx (diagnosis) of "Theophobia."

So I am guessing you just sorta made that word up? As you knew what "phobia" meant and added the prefix "theo" to it so as to toss off a little dig on all of us who detest most organized religions. And you made it sound as if were an official Dx.

Too, a phobia is, as you said, an irrational fear. But even if somebody were phobic about religion, instead of merely detesting it, would said fear really be goundless?

I for one think not. After all, look at all the millions of deaths that have occurred in the name of religion? The childhood emotional damage done by religious zealot parents? The corrupt evangelists? The pedophile priests? Global terrorism--mostly by radical Islamic jihadists?

If yo ask me a person would have a pretty good reason for being a tad phobic about the death and destruction that some of these murderous factions have caused.

Thus...it is NOT a phobia. Merely well-grounded loathing for a group of deluded and murderous zealots.

Hope this helps!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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7/13/2015 7:02:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 10:29:49 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Theotropism: the natural inherent turning to the Spirit of God within the minds of most all human beings.

Hmmm...inaccurate terminology, medically speaking, but nonetheless true insofar as making the claim that the homo sapien mind IS "hardwired" so as to have a tendency to configure some type of supernatural or divine entity that can assuage its fears. This is a by product of our evolved minds, probably first appearing in our brain architecture about 500,000 years ago. Once we gained "self-awareness."

It is merely an example of one of the many human mind's self-defense mechanisms. And its obsession with seeking "causes and patterns."

Even when there are none.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
ironslippers
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7/13/2015 7:18:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 12:18:14 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:37:11 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The concept of "Truth" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something lousy they do into something good.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of hedonism won't lead to inner peace. It's a fools game.

The concept of "Death" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something irrational they have to accept into a belief.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of piousness won't lead to a craved afterlife. It's a fools game.

The concept of "Life" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can not to face the big scary universe alone, they create imaginary super friend(s).

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of comfort won't lead to decent nights sleep. It's a fools game
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
Bennett91
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7/13/2015 7:24:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 10:37:11 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The concept of "Truth" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something lousy they do into something good.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of hedonism won't lead to inner peace. It's a fools game.

The concept of truth is so frightening people will turn to religion in order to tell themselves they know the truth.
DanneJeRusse
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7/13/2015 7:56:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 8:40:22 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:

Let me make my position clear.

When you are talking to someone who isn't even willing to understand the concepts they say are false, and refuse to make any attempt whatsoever to be helped into understanding what these things mean, they are being theophobic.

But, we do understand the concepts, sometime far better than the believers who embrace them. Many of them have yet to read the Bible let alone any other books.

You know, it baffles me that one could bend over backwards in order to understand another person's position, and not be given that same courtesy.

LOL. You mean like how you bend over backwards to understand the position of gay marriage?

Think reasonably for a moment. How effective do you think you are going to be at convincing me of your position if you aren't even willing to take the time to understand it? How effective do you think you are going to be at having a meaningful discussion with me when you tell me what I believe, I tell you that you are mistaken, and you respond by telling me that you know better what I believe than I do?

But, we do understand your position, it is one that has been held by many here already, and they have given it up because it is a very weak position with no basis in reality.

It's sub-mongoloid level stupidity, and it is coupled with the most self destructive arrogance.

That is why many here have no time for your religion, you just encapsulated it in a nutshell.


Theology is a very misunderstood subject. Most people don't understand these things, and most people's beefs with these things are not based on honest evaluation.

LOL. That's why many have left your religion, due to honest evaluation, something you have yet to understand.

What, you don't like God because God does bad things? What, you don't like God because people suck? What you don't like God because you don't understand the concept of a metaphor? What, you don't like God because you don't understand something on first reading it?

Sorry, but this isn't anyone liking or disliking your God, it is about the empty, baseless claims of ignorant people like yourself. We can't like or dislike a God that you or anyone else has ever shown to exist.

It takes discipline to study scripture and understand it, and most people don't have that discipline.

There's not much to study when all there is are words in a book and nothing tangible to make a discipline.

I am a theologian. I'm an ascetic.

You have shown to be a very poor theologian, not very knowledgeable at all.

I talk with other theologians. We have common understanding. Our language means something, it isn't just the spooky nonsense the shamans of this world turn it into.

Yeah, it is.

But how are you going to figure this stuff out if you are already right in your own mind?

You know, I'm trying to make clear the mysteries in such a way that people realize that it isn't all nonsense, and is actually worth looking into. I don't expect to get people to understand anything I say, that is something only God can do.

You can no more clear the mysteries than anyone else. And yes, it is all nonsense.

I speak plainly and lucidly, yet people have too much baggage attached to the words I'm using. On top of that, it's really hard to get people to expand on their narrow understanding of linguistics.

You should be more worried about your narrow minded views.

How absurd it is to try to express what is infinite through finite language!

I assure you, people have been banging their heads against the wall for thousands of years trying to pass down this hidden information. Thankfully I understand the futility of doing it through methods that don't involve discipleship.

Ah, we are called to be fools for Christ.

And, you are quite successful in that venture.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dee-em
Posts: 6,469
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7/13/2015 8:09:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 7:18:01 PM, ironslippers wrote:
At 7/13/2015 12:18:14 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:37:11 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The concept of "Truth" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something lousy they do into something good.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of hedonism won't lead to inner peace. It's a fools game.

The concept of "Death" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can to avoid it if it means turning something irrational they have to accept into a belief.

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of piousness won't lead to a craved afterlife. It's a fools game.

The concept of "Life" is so frightening to people, that they will do everything they can not to face the big scary universe alone, they create imaginary super friend(s).

Ultimately, even the greatest extreme of comfort won't lead to decent nights sleep. It's a fools game

I like that too. :-)
UndeniableReality
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7/13/2015 11:13:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 8:40:22 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 7/13/2015 12:46:55 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.

While there is a diagnosable phobia called theophobia, there has been a misrepresentative attempt lately (presumably by militant Christian proselytes) to equate it to irreligion or conscientious religious objection, and picking the term up without qualifying it appears to be tapping into that.

See for example, the fabricated Wikipedia entry: [https://en.wikipedia.org...] with its pseudodiagnostic criteria. Note the lack of reference to a reputable psychological diagnostic manual, like the DSM-5. [https://en.wikipedia.org...] Note too the poor quality of the two 'published' references -- both badly-structured polemics written from a Christian theological perspective.

For those interested in why religious objection is not a clinical phobia, I sketch some differences below.

By way of background, religious nones make up around 20% of modern US [http://www.pewforum.org...] however only 12.5% of people are diagnosed with any phobia in their lifetime, and less than 9% in any one year, with fear of heights, falling and spiders being among the most prevalent. [http://www.nimh.nih.gov...]

Many nontheists are also former people of faith -- 65% of atheist respondents worldwide are former Christians, while 10% are former Muslims. [http://www.atheistcensus.com...] So if atheists haven't simply rejected their own former faith, but rather are afraid of it, what made them scared?

Finally, with a US irreligion rate of 20%, most US nontheists have family, friends, loved-ones and bosses who are people of faith -- as most people afraid of gays or Muslims tend not to have.

So my suggestion, when paternalist theocrats start trying to tell you that atheism is a phobia rather than a rational position, tell them it's not paranoia when they are out to get you. :)

Hope that might help. :D

Let me make my position clear.

When you are talking to someone who isn't even willing to understand the concepts they say are false, and refuse to make any attempt whatsoever to be helped into understanding what these things mean, they are being theophobic.

You know, it baffles me that one could bend over backwards in order to understand another person's position, and not be given that same courtesy.

Think reasonably for a moment. How effective do you think you are going to be at convincing me of your position if you aren't even willing to take the time to understand it? How effective do you think you are going to be at having a meaningful discussion with me when you tell me what I believe, I tell you that you are mistaken, and you respond by telling me that you know better what I believe than I do?

It's sub-mongoloid level stupidity, and it is coupled with the most self destructive arrogance.


Theology is a very misunderstood subject. Most people don't understand these things, and most people's beefs with these things are not based on honest evaluation.

What, you don't like God because God does bad things? What, you don't like God because people suck? What you don't like God because you don't understand the concept of a metaphor? What, you don't like God because you don't understand something on first reading it?

It takes discipline to study scripture and understand it, and most people don't have that discipline.

I am a theologian. I'm an ascetic. I talk with other theologians. We have common understanding. Our language means something, it isn't just the spooky nonsense the shamans of this world turn it into.

But how are you going to figure this stuff out if you are already right in your own mind?

You know, I'm trying to make clear the mysteries in such a way that people realize that it isn't all nonsense, and is actually worth looking into. I don't expect to get people to understand anything I say, that is something only God can do.

I speak plainly and lucidly, yet people have too much baggage attached to the words I'm using. On top of that, it's really hard to get people to expand on their narrow understanding of linguistics.

How absurd it is to try to express what is infinite through finite language!

I assure you, people have been banging their heads against the wall for thousands of years trying to pass down this hidden information. Thankfully I understand the futility of doing it through methods that don't involve discipleship.

Ah, we are called to be fools for Christ.

Do you know what "mongoloid" means?
Najs
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7/14/2015 1:41:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.

Also...

http://www.rightdiagnosis.com...

Theophobia Treatments:
-Behavior therapy
-Medication
-Psychotherapy
-Cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT)
-Behavioral therapy
-Exposure therapy
-Relaxation techniques: controlled breathing, visualisation

"RightDiagnosis.com is one of the world"s leading providers of online medical health information. The site is an independent, objective source of factual, mainstream health information for both consumers and health professionals.

The objective of the site is to encourage consumers to be informed and interested in managing their health, and to know what questions to ask their doctors to help ensure they are getting the best healthcare possible."
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com...

Symptoms:
"Other symptoms may also include anger, frustration, trembling, elevated heart rate, nausea, feeling as if you are losing your mind, an urge to prove others wrong who believe in the deity, weeping."
http://www.phobiasource.com...

MediLexicon:
http://www.medilexicon.com...

Farlex Partner Medical Dictionary:
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...

Farlex Partner Medical Dictionary:
theophobia. (n.d.) Farlex Partner Medical Dictionary. (2012). Retrieved July 13 2015 from http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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7/14/2015 9:41:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 6:57:48 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/12/2015 10:11:12 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The irrational fear of anything related to do with religion, scripture, or God.

OK..so, I just flipped through my boss's DSM-V and, what do ya know? Found no mention of the Dx (diagnosis) of "Theophobia."

So I am guessing you just sorta made that word up? As you knew what "phobia" meant and added the prefix "theo" to it so as to toss off a little dig on all of us who detest most organized religions. And you made it sound as if were an official Dx.

Too, a phobia is, as you said, an irrational fear. But even if somebody were phobic about religion, instead of merely detesting it, would said fear really be goundless?

I for one think not. After all, look at all the millions of deaths that have occurred in the name of religion? The childhood emotional damage done by religious zealot parents? The corrupt evangelists? The pedophile priests? Global terrorism--mostly by radical Islamic jihadists?

If yo ask me a person would have a pretty good reason for being a tad phobic about the death and destruction that some of these murderous factions have caused.

Thus...it is NOT a phobia. Merely well-grounded loathing for a group of deluded and murderous zealots.

Hope this helps!

I agree with you wholeheartedly, there are a lot of rational reasons to be put off by these things.

However, you also have to understand, that people are going to do terrible things, and if they can fool people into going along with it by manipulating them through their beliefs... Well, it happens.

Also, keep in mind that the scriptures were kept from lay people for the longest time.

Religion is man made. I'd be the first to tell you this.

However, the scriptures that these religions are based on point to something that is very real.

People don't understand the things they profess to believe in. In Christian scripture, all of the apostasies of the church were prophesied in the epistles. Attempt to sabotage the message has been there since the very beginning.

If you understand the scriptures, you aren't going to put your faith in man or man made institution. You aren't going to commit the idolatry of scripture either. They point to something very real.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer