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MarquisX
Posts: 925
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8/20/2010 12:34:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
First and foremost let me clarify, that I'm not saying you should believe in God. You have your right to believe in anything and everything you want. This is simply to address those who believe that religion is what causes 90% of the worlds problems. I know you wont like to read this but that assumption is wrong. The real enemy of human is in intolerance. The media would have you believe that Muslims like to build bombs. Real Muslims believe in peace. Muslims intolerant of others like to sacrifice themselves because they've been taught this is right by other intolerant people. The Atheist crowd is slowly becoming intolerant. You are becoming a new religion unintentionally.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
Yvette
Posts: 859
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8/20/2010 12:38:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:34:22 PM, MarquisX wrote:
First and foremost let me clarify, that I'm not saying you should believe in God. You have your right to believe in anything and everything you want. This is simply to address those who believe that religion is what causes 90% of the worlds problems. I know you wont like to read this but that assumption is wrong. The real enemy of human is in intolerance. The media would have you believe that Muslims like to build bombs. Real Muslims believe in peace. Muslims intolerant of others like to sacrifice themselves because they've been taught this is right by other intolerant people. The Atheist crowd is slowly becoming intolerant. You are becoming a new religion unintentionally.

(Hey, when were we going to have that discussion you wanted?)

Not all atheists think religion is harmful, and not all people who think religion is harmful. I should note that in your last two sentences you equated religion with intolerance.

I think the problem for many is that religions usually bypass rational thought and are very powerful methods of convincing people. Religious scriptures can be interpreted pretty much however the reader wants to interpret it, giving them a powerful way to delude themselves into thinking their intolerance is justified.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/20/2010 12:39:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Real Muslims believe in peace and also understand that sometimes violence gets you there. The Religion permits violence, human nature fills in the blanks.

Some atheists are intolerant, others such as myself simply do not beleive and leave others to do so, which is tolerance.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/20/2010 12:40:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I blame human nature. Humans have a natural tendency to fight so will use any means necessary to create conflict. Even if all the main things that cause conflict now were eliminated we would just find new things to fight about.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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8/20/2010 12:46:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:34:22 PM, MarquisX wrote:
First and foremost let me clarify, that I'm not saying you should believe in God. You have your right to believe in anything and everything you want. This is simply to address those who believe that religion is what causes 90% of the worlds problems. I know you wont like to read this but that assumption is wrong. The real enemy of human is in intolerance. The media would have you believe that Muslims like to build bombs. Real Muslims believe in peace. Muslims intolerant of others like to sacrifice themselves because they've been taught this is right by other intolerant people. The Atheist crowd is slowly becoming intolerant. You are becoming a new religion unintentionally.

Islam is a very intolerant religion and preaches the subjugation of people. Even the vast majority of "moderate" Muslims believe in jihad. Those that do not are often ostracized and considered "fake" Muslims.

However, I am in agreement with you that the belief that "religion is the cause of most human atrocities or wars" is a popular view propagated by the media. I think that there are many atheist that espouse such views, but not all. Just like there are theists that might think the same; but not all.

Clearly, man is perfectly capable of being the monster that he can be without the help of religion.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Anarcho
Posts: 887
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8/20/2010 12:46:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:40:25 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I blame human nature. Humans have a natural tendency to fight so will use any means necessary to create conflict. Even if all the main things that cause conflict now were eliminated we would just find new things to fight about.

I blame the social conditions that causes intolerance and makes people want to fight others.
InsertNameHere wrote: "If we evolved from apes then why are apes still around?

This is semi-serious btw. It's something that seems strange to me. You'd think that entire species would cease to exist if other ones evolved from them."

Anarcho wrote: *facepalm*
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/20/2010 12:46:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Tolerant like the christian God??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/20/2010 12:48:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:46:50 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Tolerant like the christian God??

he wouldn't ever persecute people for having the "wrong" beliefs, right?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/20/2010 12:57:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:46:28 PM, Anarcho wrote:
At 8/20/2010 12:40:25 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I blame human nature. Humans have a natural tendency to fight so will use any means necessary to create conflict. Even if all the main things that cause conflict now were eliminated we would just find new things to fight about.

I blame the social conditions that causes intolerance and makes people want to fight others.

No, we would find new things to fight over. Don't worry.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/20/2010 12:57:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:39:41 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Real Muslims believe in peace and also understand that sometimes violence gets you there. The Religion permits violence, human nature fills in the blanks.

Some atheists are intolerant, others such as myself simply do not beleive and leave others to do so, which is tolerance.

I think I'm tolerant... but if others have what I think to be Inhumane, or even silly, beliefs...

I don't wish to leave them to it... that can end badly... I'd prefer to have them be humane and see clearly
(though I wouldn't try to disillusion a sweet granmum)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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8/20/2010 12:59:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hooray for intolerance.

Boo for irrationality. You don't need to be tolerant not to blow yourself up. Heck, you have to be intolerant of death for it to be a problem.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/20/2010 1:05:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 1:00:05 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Hi, I'm a theist. :)

lol I'm Atheist too!
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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8/20/2010 1:16:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:59:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Hooray for intolerance.

Boo for irrationality. You don't need to be tolerant not to blow yourself up. Heck, you have to be intolerant of death for it to be a problem.

Lol.

One should be quite intolerant of the irrational.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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8/20/2010 2:18:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
My apologies. My post was rushed. I forgot, in my haste, to say I was mostly targeting Anti-Theist. Like I mentioned before I have no problem with atheists,(my best friend is atheist and is the Godfather of my first child) but I do believe that the mocking another persons beliefs is the first step of intolerance. Every religion does it, but atheist have no reason too. Consider the Christian bashing against gays. While this is very very wrong, in some misguided way they are trying to help. When an Anti-Theists attacks me and makes fun of my religion I can't help but wonder why. As for the comments about Muslims, I know Muslims and I've been to mosque. They are NOT trying to attack others but they believe, unlike Christians, that violence is necessary when attack first. As when I made the link between intolerance and religion, I did not mean to link those two together in that way. But I do believe that soon you Anti-theist, will accidentally make yourselves into a religion
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/20/2010 2:22:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is simply to address those who believe that religion is what causes 90% of the worlds problems.:

No it isn't. Religion is just one more scapegoat that people use to justify themselves. War and all the nasty things associated with human beings will happen irrespective of religion.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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8/20/2010 2:25:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 2:18:04 PM, MarquisX wrote:
My apologies. My post was rushed. I forgot, in my haste, to say I was mostly targeting Anti-Theist. Like I mentioned before I have no problem with atheists,(my best friend is atheist and is the Godfather of my first child) but I do believe that the mocking another persons beliefs is the first step of intolerance. Every religion does it, but atheist have no reason too. Consider the Christian bashing against gays. While this is very very wrong, in some misguided way they are trying to help. When an Anti-Theists attacks me and makes fun of my religion I can't help but wonder why.
Same reasons: trying to help in a misguided way.

As for the comments about Muslims, I know Muslims and I've been to mosque. They are NOT trying to attack others but they believe, unlike Christians, that violence is necessary when attack first. As when I made the link between intolerance and religion, I did not mean to link those two together in that way. But I do believe that soon you Anti-theist, will accidentally make yourselves into a religion
They are! The Godless religion!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/20/2010 2:25:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 2:18:04 PM, MarquisX wrote:
My apologies. My post was rushed. I forgot, in my haste, to say I was mostly targeting Anti-Theist. Like I mentioned before I have no problem with atheists,(my best friend is atheist and is the Godfather of my first child) but I do believe that the mocking another persons beliefs is the first step of intolerance. Every religion does it, but atheist have no reason too. Consider the Christian bashing against gays. While this is very very wrong, in some misguided way they are trying to help. When an Anti-Theists attacks me and makes fun of my religion I can't help but wonder why. As for the comments about Muslims, I know Muslims and I've been to mosque. They are NOT trying to attack others but they believe, unlike Christians, that violence is necessary when attack first. As when I made the link between intolerance and religion, I did not mean to link those two together in that way. But I do believe that soon you Anti-theist, will accidentally make yourselves into a religion

Yep. My best friend is a Catholic and I'm dating a Jew so religious people can be tolerant.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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8/20/2010 2:27:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 2:22:49 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
This is simply to address those who believe that religion is what causes 90% of the worlds problems.:

No it isn't. Religion is just one more scapegoat that people use to justify themselves. War and all the nasty things associated with human beings will happen irrespective of religion.

It's nice to see someone use English properly. I would have cringed if you irregardless!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Anarcho
Posts: 887
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8/20/2010 2:27:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 2:25:17 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Yep. My best friend is a Catholic and I'm dating a Jew so religious people can be tolerant.

lol But he isn't. And he's Atheist.
InsertNameHere wrote: "If we evolved from apes then why are apes still around?

This is semi-serious btw. It's something that seems strange to me. You'd think that entire species would cease to exist if other ones evolved from them."

Anarcho wrote: *facepalm*
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/20/2010 2:29:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 2:27:48 PM, Anarcho wrote:
At 8/20/2010 2:25:17 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Yep. My best friend is a Catholic and I'm dating a Jew so religious people can be tolerant.

lol But he isn't. And he's Atheist.

He's still Jewish.
Yvette
Posts: 859
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8/20/2010 3:07:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 2:18:04 PM, MarquisX wrote:
My apologies. My post was rushed. I forgot, in my haste, to say I was mostly targeting Anti-Theist. Like I mentioned before I have no problem with atheists,(my best friend is atheist and is the Godfather of my first child) but I do believe that the mocking another persons beliefs is the first step of intolerance. Every religion does it, but atheist have no reason too. Consider the Christian bashing against gays. While this is very very wrong, in some misguided way they are trying to help. When an Anti-Theists attacks me and makes fun of my religion I can't help but wonder why. As for the comments about Muslims, I know Muslims and I've been to mosque. They are NOT trying to attack others but they believe, unlike Christians, that violence is necessary when attack first. As when I made the link between intolerance and religion, I did not mean to link those two together in that way. But I do believe that soon you Anti-theist, will accidentally make yourselves into a religion

So...here's the problem for anti-theists, and the difference between anti-theism and real intolerance.

Intolerance is truly...intolerable when it attacks a person for who they are, or what they are. Attacking a person's beliefs/opinions? That's completely different. Whenever you criticize a person's beliefs or opinions you're doing it.

Now, mockery isn't the sole method of being anti-theist. Many anti-theists are respectful, and even the ones that aren't respectful of theism do more than mock it. What is really mocked isn't theism itself but the religious beliefs that shape theist beliefs. It's not belief in a god which is usually mocked but specific doctrines, myths, etc.

Atheism/anti-theism can't really be a religion by any definition. It's not a collection of beliefs, values, rituals, etc, etc.

Many of us who are anti-theist see religious belief as harmful and ridiculous, as overriding rational thought. If someone told you they believed in the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy, would you not find it ridiculous?

Granted, mockery isn't nice. But humans aren't perfect, and again, anti-theism is more than, "haha, stupid theists!"
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Yvette
Posts: 859
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8/20/2010 3:09:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 2:25:17 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/20/2010 2:18:04 PM, MarquisX wrote:
My apologies. My post was rushed. I forgot, in my haste, to say I was mostly targeting Anti-Theist. Like I mentioned before I have no problem with atheists,(my best friend is atheist and is the Godfather of my first child) but I do believe that the mocking another persons beliefs is the first step of intolerance. Every religion does it, but atheist have no reason too. Consider the Christian bashing against gays. While this is very very wrong, in some misguided way they are trying to help. When an Anti-Theists attacks me and makes fun of my religion I can't help but wonder why. As for the comments about Muslims, I know Muslims and I've been to mosque. They are NOT trying to attack others but they believe, unlike Christians, that violence is necessary when attack first. As when I made the link between intolerance and religion, I did not mean to link those two together in that way. But I do believe that soon you Anti-theist, will accidentally make yourselves into a religion

Yep. My best friend is a Catholic and I'm dating a Jew so religious people can be tolerant.

Religious people can be tolerant, and religious people can be rational and intelligent and good.

The problem is that the human mind is inclined to use anything it can to justify it's actions, specifically, justify taking and not giving. What better way than the most powerful language which appeals not to logic but emotion?
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/20/2010 3:21:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ok, let's get this straight. It is NOT human nature that's the problem. It's religion. In fact, the followers of the religion have more decency, more morality, more humanity than the religious doctrines that they follow.

"Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a fierce slaughter." (Surah 33:61; Quran)

"Lo! Allah hath cursed the disbelievers, and hath prepared for them a flaming fire." (Surah 33:64; Quran)

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16; Bible)


So who is willing to tell me with a straight face that human nature is the problem and that religion is pure??
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/20/2010 3:24:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 3:21:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

So who is willing to tell me with a straight face that human nature is the problem and that religion is pure??

False dichotomy. Beliefs, including religious ones, require an actor.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/20/2010 3:29:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 3:24:03 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/20/2010 3:21:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

So who is willing to tell me with a straight face that human nature is the problem and that religion is pure??

False dichotomy. Beliefs, including religious ones, require an actor.

I'm going by the dichotomy that is being presented to me.

I.e.

"This is simply to address those who believe that religion is what causes 90% of the worlds problems. ... The real enemy of human is in intolerance."

"The Religion permits violence, human nature fills in the blanks."

"I blame human nature."
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Yvette
Posts: 859
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8/20/2010 3:30:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 3:24:03 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/20/2010 3:21:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

So who is willing to tell me with a straight face that human nature is the problem and that religion is pure??

False dichotomy. Beliefs, including religious ones, require an actor.

He has a point, though. Religion is a reflection of humanity's best and worst, it's definitely not pure.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/20/2010 3:31:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It's still a false one. :P Religious beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. They require someone to believe and then enact them.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/20/2010 3:51:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 3:31:23 PM, Puck wrote:
It's still a false one. :P Religious beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. They require someone to believe and then enact them.

You don't believe there is a distinction between religion and followers? Do Muslims who blow up buildings represent Islamic doctrines? I don't think bombs nor the twin towers during the advent of Islam.

Just because a Muslim or Christian believes X, doesn't mean X is part of Christianity or Islamic doctrines.

I think the problem is, you don't differentiate between people vs. doctrines. Doctrines exist whether people believe them or not.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/20/2010 4:35:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 2:18:04 PM, MarquisX wrote:
(my best friend is atheist and is the Godfather of my first child)

18 years old

Dude.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.