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But what created God ?

Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
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7/18/2015 9:32:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

And... what exactly prevents the universe from behaving as this so called (invented) "Spirit" world? The universe has no end, it just cycles from being bang to big crunch through all of eternity. One. Big. Circle. So, now that we have again demonstrated the special pleading....

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

From the eternal spirit world to the linear material world, boldly asserted with no evidence or reasoning as to why the material isn't just as circular.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Then there is another "uber" deity. God is not the source any more than my parents "created" me, at least on a cosmic scale.

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

... especially if you invent the rules. "Spirits" and such.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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kp98
Posts: 729
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7/18/2015 10:05:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.
Pure logic can support anyting.
Cats are Dogs
Dogs are invisible
therefore Cats are invisible.

As pure logic that is fine. The reason it is nonsense is because 'truth' depends on facts, not only 'pure logic'. The 'logical argument' supporting a Creator Being is almost non-existent. It consists purely of the assertion 'nothing comes from nothing'.

That implies that the universe must have come from something (Duh!). Even if one accepts that there is no way in even pure logic - divorced from the need for mere facts - that the something has to be 'god' - certainly not the god of the approved scripture of your culture. What brought the universe into being is certainly something and not nothing - but how is it 'pure logic' that the same something, say, answers prayers, or prefered the Hebrews to the Amelekites?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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7/18/2015 10:12:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Anything that is eternal or doesn't exist doesn't have a cause. The universe could be eternal and causeless. Just don't tell me that the Big Bang didn't have a cause. That would mean that it was eternal or didn't exist.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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7/18/2015 10:13:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 10:05:32 AM, kp98 wrote:
nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.
Pure logic can support anyting.
Cats are Dogs
Dogs are invisible
therefore Cats are invisible.

As pure logic that is fine. The reason it is nonsense is because 'truth' depends on facts, not only 'pure logic'. The 'logical argument' supporting a Creator Being is almost non-existent. It consists purely of the assertion 'nothing comes from nothing'.

Are you implying that facts require empirical verification?

That implies that the universe must have come from something (Duh!). Even if one accepts that there is no way in even pure logic - divorced from the need for mere facts - that the something has to be 'god' - certainly not the god of the approved scripture of your culture. What brought the universe into being is certainly something and not nothing - but how is it 'pure logic' that the same something, say, answers prayers, or prefered the Hebrews to the Amelekites?
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
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7/18/2015 10:26:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Of course there's special pleading for God, and rightfully so; He's God! By definition He doesn't have to adhere to human ideas about logic as perceived in this Universe.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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janesix
Posts: 3,466
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7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/18/2015 1:16:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 10:26:37 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Of course there's special pleading for God, and rightfully so; He's God! By definition He doesn't have to adhere to human ideas about logic as perceived in this Universe.

Not just God. But reality doesn't have to adhere to human ideas about logic as perceived in this Universe.

I hope that helps.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2015 2:18:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 10:05:32 AM, kp98 wrote:
nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.
Pure logic can support anyting.
Cats are Dogs
Dogs are invisible
therefore Cats are invisible.

As pure logic that is fine. The reason it is nonsense is because 'truth' depends on facts, not only 'pure logic'. The 'logical argument' supporting a Creator Being is almost non-existent. It consists purely of the assertion 'nothing comes from nothing'.

That was not an argument for God my friend, that was just an after thought.

That implies that the universe must have come from something (Duh!). Even if one accepts that there is no way in even pure logic - divorced from the need for mere facts - that the something has to be 'god' - certainly not the god of the approved scripture of your culture. What brought the universe into being is certainly something and not nothing - but how is it 'pure logic' that the same something, say, answers prayers, or prefered the Hebrews to the Amelekites?

See above and I'm not sure what the last part has to do with anything.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2015 2:23:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.

I'm not sure what your point is but how would you know what a spirit being needs? How would you know it needs physical support?? That would negate the nature of spirit all together however....

When I say "spirit" I don't mean nothingness, spirit does have it's own properties we just have no real way of examining those properties. I could speculate on what I've seen and learned but that is it, until we leave this body we will only see in "part".
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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7/18/2015 2:26:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Circular reasoning.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2015 2:30:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 9:32:14 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

And... what exactly prevents the universe from behaving as this so called (invented) "Spirit" world? The universe has no end, it just cycles from being bang to big crunch through all of eternity. One. Big. Circle. So, now that we have again demonstrated the special pleading....

The material universe exists inside of eternity, creation is what cycles, not God.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

From the eternal spirit world to the linear material world, boldly asserted with no evidence or reasoning as to why the material isn't just as circular.

Are you serious lol? All we see in creation is life and death, point A to point B that goes without saying, how do you not see that in reality? When I say the material world I'm talking about you, the animals, the planets ect... all these things we know has a beginning and an end, I shouldn't have to explain that for you.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Then there is another "uber" deity. God is not the source any more than my parents "created" me, at least on a cosmic scale.

Why? even if God had a beginning He is still the creator of our world...

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

... especially if you invent the rules. "Spirits" and such.

Not my rules brother, read the scriptures and listen to the majority of man kind, I have made up nothing of my own rules, only testifying it is true.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/18/2015 2:32:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

The theist will say that things that begin to exist require a cause, but there is no reason to believe God began to exist. Therefore, no reason to think God has a cause. The universe did begin to exist, therefore saying God needs a cause because the universe does would be comparing apples and oranges. The theist would also say that a trillion Gods violates Occam's Razor, one is more simple.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2015 2:33:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 2:26:21 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Circular reasoning.

I'm assuming you meant that directed at the last paragraph? That was not my argument or reasoning, that was just an opinion I could have left out.
janesix
Posts: 3,466
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7/18/2015 2:39:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 2:23:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.

I'm not sure what your point is but how would you know what a spirit being needs? How would you know it needs physical support?? That would negate the nature of spirit all together however....

When I say "spirit" I don't mean nothingness, spirit does have it's own properties we just have no real way of examining those properties. I could speculate on what I've seen and learned but that is it, until we leave this body we will only see in "part".

How do you know there are spiritual beings?
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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7/18/2015 2:40:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 10:26:37 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Of course there's special pleading for God, and rightfully so; He's God! By definition He doesn't have to adhere to human ideas about logic as perceived in this Universe.

Circular reasoning. "He is God because that is what I define him as." (I use the term "circular reasoning" instead of "circular logic" because there is no logic nor evidence to your assumption.)
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2015 2:41:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 2:39:27 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:23:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.

I'm not sure what your point is but how would you know what a spirit being needs? How would you know it needs physical support?? That would negate the nature of spirit all together however....

When I say "spirit" I don't mean nothingness, spirit does have it's own properties we just have no real way of examining those properties. I could speculate on what I've seen and learned but that is it, until we leave this body we will only see in "part".

How do you know there are spiritual beings?

Lol, I've been ridiculed for sharing my testimony, not interested anymore but lets just say that a spiritual world exists. I'd be lying to say otherwise and so would Christ.
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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7/18/2015 2:49:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 2:41:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:39:27 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:23:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.

I'm not sure what your point is but how would you know what a spirit being needs? How would you know it needs physical support?? That would negate the nature of spirit all together however....

When I say "spirit" I don't mean nothingness, spirit does have it's own properties we just have no real way of examining those properties. I could speculate on what I've seen and learned but that is it, until we leave this body we will only see in "part".

How do you know there are spiritual beings?

Lol, I've been ridiculed for sharing my testimony, not interested anymore but lets just say that a spiritual world exists. I'd be lying to say otherwise and so would Christ.

So, everyone is just supposed to take your word for imaginary existence? Really now. That crosses the line of rationality.
komododragon8
Posts: 405
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7/18/2015 2:54:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

I'll tell you who created god....I did :)
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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7/18/2015 3:03:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 2:54:19 PM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

I'll tell you who created god....I did :)

Quite honestly, that makes as much sense as anything I have ever read on this forum.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
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7/18/2015 3:04:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

And... what exactly prevents the universe from behaving as this so called (invented) "Spirit" world? The universe has no end, it just cycles from being bang to big crunch through all of eternity. One. Big. Circle. So, now that we have again demonstrated the special pleading....

The material universe exists inside of eternity, creation is what cycles, not God.

And in this example, because the material universe cycles inside of eternity, God is not needed. See?

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

From the eternal spirit world to the linear material world, boldly asserted with no evidence or reasoning as to why the material isn't just as circular.

Are you serious lol? All we see in creation is life and death, point A to point B that goes without saying, how do you not see that in reality? When I say the material world I'm talking about you, the animals, the planets ect... all these things we know has a beginning and an end, I shouldn't have to explain that for you.

And from whence did "God set it all in motion" from? Surely, it couldn't have been the material world, it MUST have been from the eternal spirit world, even though the eternal spirit is something that is not only not necessary if we apply the special pleading God uses, but actually sounds reasonable.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Then there is another "uber" deity. God is not the source any more than my parents "created" me, at least on a cosmic scale.

Why? even if God had a beginning He is still the creator of our world...

Why should I care about a middle man? It means He is not the -ultimate- authority on anything, as there is yet another man behind another curtain.

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

... especially if you invent the rules. "Spirits" and such.

Not my rules brother, read the scriptures and listen to the majority of man kind, I have made up nothing of my own rules, only testifying it is true.

... and...? Not your rules, but you are happy to play by them, and yes, Theists now -a-days do invent them up as they go, its why we have the countless denominations of religion we have now. Just because you are not one of the "original" theists to make up the rules doesn't exonerate you of playing along.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
janesix
Posts: 3,466
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7/18/2015 4:08:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 2:41:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:39:27 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:23:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.

I'm not sure what your point is but how would you know what a spirit being needs? How would you know it needs physical support?? That would negate the nature of spirit all together however....

When I say "spirit" I don't mean nothingness, spirit does have it's own properties we just have no real way of examining those properties. I could speculate on what I've seen and learned but that is it, until we leave this body we will only see in "part".

How do you know there are spiritual beings?

Lol, I've been ridiculed for sharing my testimony, not interested anymore but lets just say that a spiritual world exists. I'd be lying to say otherwise and so would Christ.

I haven't ridiculed you, nor would I. I figured you wanted to discuss the matter, otherwise you wouldn't be here. I personally think there is an aspect of spirit to the world, but I think it deserves a real explanation. I keep looking for it.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2015 5:21:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 2:49:31 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:41:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:39:27 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:23:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.

I'm not sure what your point is but how would you know what a spirit being needs? How would you know it needs physical support?? That would negate the nature of spirit all together however....

When I say "spirit" I don't mean nothingness, spirit does have it's own properties we just have no real way of examining those properties. I could speculate on what I've seen and learned but that is it, until we leave this body we will only see in "part".

How do you know there are spiritual beings?

Lol, I've been ridiculed for sharing my testimony, not interested anymore but lets just say that a spiritual world exists. I'd be lying to say otherwise and so would Christ.

So, everyone is just supposed to take your word for imaginary existence? Really now. That crosses the line of rationality.

What is imaginary my friend? And no, no one should take my word for anything but since I'm an honest person I would think anyone has the right to hear me out.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2015 5:39:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 4:08:53 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:41:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:39:27 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:23:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.

I'm not sure what your point is but how would you know what a spirit being needs? How would you know it needs physical support?? That would negate the nature of spirit all together however....

When I say "spirit" I don't mean nothingness, spirit does have it's own properties we just have no real way of examining those properties. I could speculate on what I've seen and learned but that is it, until we leave this body we will only see in "part".

How do you know there are spiritual beings?

Lol, I've been ridiculed for sharing my testimony, not interested anymore but lets just say that a spiritual world exists. I'd be lying to say otherwise and so would Christ.

I haven't ridiculed you, nor would I. I figured you wanted to discuss the matter, otherwise you wouldn't be here. I personally think there is an aspect of spirit to the world, but I think it deserves a real explanation. I keep looking for it.

Okay I respect that but don't be surprised if some idiot interrupts with accusations about me personally. A real explanation however is perfectly within Christianity, but I will tell you I've seen spirits, although I have heard no audible voices the spirits definitely wanted me to know they were there.
I'm not a normal individual Janesix, I'm very spiritual by nature and have been that way since I can remember, I have always desired spiritual over the physical. I can tell by observing people and the way they interact and think about things that I am living and thinking about life and reality in a much different manner.
Because of this I have been through several spiritual experiences, including seeing visions and spirits and observing a spiritual reality by applying what Jesus taught, not head knowledge but being willing to be pliable and being willing to move my position is what makes my experiences abnormal, for the common folk has not as an intense desire.
But seek ye first the Kindom of God and all these things will be added unto you, there is nothing that God will keep from you within the realm of eternity.
If you think there is an aspect of spiritual reality you are on the mark, keep seeking and asking questions and you will find you will be acquainted but remember, there is nothing that will be withheld from you according to your own integrity.
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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7/18/2015 6:17:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 5:21:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:49:31 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:41:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:39:27 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:23:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.

I'm not sure what your point is but how would you know what a spirit being needs? How would you know it needs physical support?? That would negate the nature of spirit all together however....

When I say "spirit" I don't mean nothingness, spirit does have it's own properties we just have no real way of examining those properties. I could speculate on what I've seen and learned but that is it, until we leave this body we will only see in "part".

How do you know there are spiritual beings?

Lol, I've been ridiculed for sharing my testimony, not interested anymore but lets just say that a spiritual world exists. I'd be lying to say otherwise and so would Christ.

So, everyone is just supposed to take your word for imaginary existence? Really now. That crosses the line of rationality.

What is imaginary my friend? And no, no one should take my word for anything but since I'm an honest person I would think anyone has the right to hear me out.

So, I'm supposed to believe you are an honest person just because you say so? And what do you do for a living? Sell used cars? Or Wall Street securities?

Well, when one has heard the same fairy tale hundreds of thousands of times. it only gets older, not truer.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2015 6:22:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 6:17:16 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 5:21:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:49:31 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:41:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:39:27 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:23:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.

I'm not sure what your point is but how would you know what a spirit being needs? How would you know it needs physical support?? That would negate the nature of spirit all together however....

When I say "spirit" I don't mean nothingness, spirit does have it's own properties we just have no real way of examining those properties. I could speculate on what I've seen and learned but that is it, until we leave this body we will only see in "part".

How do you know there are spiritual beings?

Lol, I've been ridiculed for sharing my testimony, not interested anymore but lets just say that a spiritual world exists. I'd be lying to say otherwise and so would Christ.

So, everyone is just supposed to take your word for imaginary existence? Really now. That crosses the line of rationality.

What is imaginary my friend? And no, no one should take my word for anything but since I'm an honest person I would think anyone has the right to hear me out.

So, I'm supposed to believe you are an honest person just because you say so? And what do you do for a living? Sell used cars? Or Wall Street securities?

Well, when one has heard the same fairy tale hundreds of thousands of times. it only gets older, not truer.

Looks like it time for something different, and I'm different my brother. You don't have to believe I'm an honest person, you should be able to detect that without me saying it, but oh well.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2015 6:27:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 6:17:16 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 5:21:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:49:31 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:41:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:39:27 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:23:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.

I'm not sure what your point is but how would you know what a spirit being needs? How would you know it needs physical support?? That would negate the nature of spirit all together however....

When I say "spirit" I don't mean nothingness, spirit does have it's own properties we just have no real way of examining those properties. I could speculate on what I've seen and learned but that is it, until we leave this body we will only see in "part".

How do you know there are spiritual beings?

Lol, I've been ridiculed for sharing my testimony, not interested anymore but lets just say that a spiritual world exists. I'd be lying to say otherwise and so would Christ.

So, everyone is just supposed to take your word for imaginary existence? Really now. That crosses the line of rationality.

What is imaginary my friend? And no, no one should take my word for anything but since I'm an honest person I would think anyone has the right to hear me out.

So, I'm supposed to believe you are an honest person just because you say so? And what do you do for a living? Sell used cars? Or Wall Street securities?

Well, when one has heard the same fairy tale hundreds of thousands of times. it only gets older, not truer.

And BTW, I'm no sales person, that is the least of my qualities only making my offerings much more realistic. I am not interested at all in sales or manipulating people.
I'm not about a show, I'm about people and their well-being. I would only be lying to you by telling you atheist propaganda and lies. A spiritual existence is more real then the material world, it is wonderful and full of experience, not something you want to dismiss or reject, it is reality.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2015 6:41:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 6:17:16 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 5:21:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:49:31 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:41:13 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:39:27 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:23:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:54:51 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/18/2015 9:27:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

Yes that is correct, almost can't even believe you went there again lol.

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

Look illegal, there is the material physical world in which theists only claim needed a first cause, this simple truth gets lost in the grey area of the atheist brain.
God is not a physical entity but a spiritual Being that has always existed how? Because eternity works in a circle whereas the material runs in a straight line from point A to point B, this cycle of life is removed when we leave this material body, you have now crossed over into the realm that does not die off or deteriorate (this is where God abides), therefore God does not die off or deteriorate, He is Spirit.

No one claims that anything other than our natural universe had a cause, we know it had a beginning we don't have to guess, the earth, universe and all the little marvelous critters that inhabit it were the result of the creation God set in motion.

Now having said that, IF God indeed had a beginning (which would cause more problems than not) we have no idea of it, God would have chosen to thus far to keep that mystery to Himself, but let's say just for kicks this was somehow possible that some god could have had a cause, what would this mean? what would we do with that information?

Theists aren't saying everything has to have a first cause, we are saying that the universe did not create itself and we did not grow into these bodies wearing tuxedos and dresses by chance lol, it just didn't happen, logic, nothing more than pure logic supports a Creator Being.

Immaterial things must have a physical support. Like your thoughts, which must have the brain as a physical support. Thus "spirit" would need a physical support, including God. That's logical.

I'm not sure what your point is but how would you know what a spirit being needs? How would you know it needs physical support?? That would negate the nature of spirit all together however....

When I say "spirit" I don't mean nothingness, spirit does have it's own properties we just have no real way of examining those properties. I could speculate on what I've seen and learned but that is it, until we leave this body we will only see in "part".

How do you know there are spiritual beings?

Lol, I've been ridiculed for sharing my testimony, not interested anymore but lets just say that a spiritual world exists. I'd be lying to say otherwise and so would Christ.

So, everyone is just supposed to take your word for imaginary existence? Really now. That crosses the line of rationality.

What is imaginary my friend? And no, no one should take my word for anything but since I'm an honest person I would think anyone has the right to hear me out.

So, I'm supposed to believe you are an honest person just because you say so? And what do you do for a living? Sell used cars? Or Wall Street securities?

Well, when one has heard the same fairy tale hundreds of thousands of times. it only gets older, not truer.

I am a house remodeler among other things, I remodel sections of houses such as bathrooms, kitchens, basements ect.... I am about honest work and honest prices, I am a professional painter as well but no salesman, that is not what I am about.
It is the spiritual nature of life and the well being of others that attracts me, nothing else I have no mixture I am trustworthy my friend, if you knew me I wouldn't have to say that.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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7/18/2015 9:30:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 8:27:53 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
When religious people demand an answer to what is the cause of the universe/or what ever in order to justify their belief in God there own questions can get turned onto their own claim.....................if God, what caused God ?

At which point the naughty religionist will now claim, oh that's a silly question God doesn't have a cause !!!

But here is the problem now that you have opened the door to things existing that don't need a cause (eg God) this raises the question what other things exist or can exist without a cause ?

It's not good enough just to claim well only God exists without a cause since that is just special pleading for God.

But I do fear this will be loss on alot of religious people. They don't really think through, they just think through enough to get to their desired outcome then if worse comes to worse they jsut make up an ad hoc rule to get them out of trouble.

You want one God existing without a cause ? well I give you a trillion Gods.......all existing...............all without cause.

The only God without a cause is the one that can't be put into words. Words are creation. Materialists can't tell the difference between representations of reality and reality itself.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer