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A question for Mormons....

the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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8/21/2010 2:38:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
-----------------

In the alleged preexistence you teach of, who in the great plan was going to be our opposition on earth in our quest for gaining a body ?

We know Satan is opposing us now,

At the alleged meeting, according to my understanding, Satan had the idea of destroying the opposition and making us do the will of the father, and he (Satan) would get all the glory
Jesus then put forward his plan where he would be sacrificed, this was accepted and all the glory goes to the Father

So who was it ?
I've heard various answers and the only one that makes any sense to me is the story it's self doesn't make sense.

If you answer "it was always going to be Satan" not only are you answering with no scripture to substantiate it, but you are saying that Satan didn't know the answer also, thus he became the opposition he wanted to destroy

Please explain.

-----------------------------------o O---^5 ---><))))>
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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8/21/2010 9:44:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Congratulations you don't understand the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
You misunderstand what Satan wanted to do. His plan was not to eliminate the opposition and take the glory for himself, his plan was to force all of us to always choose the right. Thus he would've eliminated our agency, which means we could not have progressed and advanced and therefore the primary purpose of our existence would've been eliminated.
So in a nutshell Satan's plan was
Make everyone always do what was right so there would be no need for a savior or an atonement.
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
the-good-teacher
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8/21/2010 9:50:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/21/2010 9:44:06 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Congratulations you don't understand the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
You misunderstand what Satan wanted to do. His plan was not to eliminate the opposition and take the glory for himself, his plan was to force all of us to always choose the right. Thus he would've eliminated our agency, which means we could not have progressed and advanced and therefore the primary purpose of our existence would've been eliminated.
So in a nutshell Satan's plan was
Make everyone always do what was right so there would be no need for a savior or an atonement.

-----------------

Interesting !
You teach "opposition in all things" so in the plan opposition had to be included, and the story of this plan mentions "NO OPPOSITION" so my question remains unanswered.

----------------------------------o O---^5--- <((((><
Strikeeagle84015
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8/21/2010 9:53:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Mosiah 3:19
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

The natural man is the opposition. Check and Mate
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/21/2010 9:53:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/21/2010 9:44:06 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Congratulations you don't understand the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
You misunderstand what Satan wanted to do. His plan was not to eliminate the opposition and take the glory for himself, his plan was to force all of us to always choose the right. Thus he would've eliminated our agency, which means we could not have progressed and advanced and therefore the primary purpose of our existence would've been eliminated.
So in a nutshell Satan's plan was
Make everyone always do what was right so there would be no need for a savior or an atonement.

So Satan was not a force for evil, merely had alternative ideas of what was good?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
the-good-teacher
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8/21/2010 10:09:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/21/2010 9:53:51 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Mosiah 3:19
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

The natural man is the opposition. Check and Mate

-------------
the natural man is the man born of Adam, not a man "born again" of the spirit (God), and the opposition remains after the rebirth,when the natural man is no more, therefore the question remains unanswered !

You have no answer because your book of Moses provides no answer, something the writer forgot to include for the story to make sense.

I have ask this very same question many times, bishops, stake presidents, missionaries, Adult teachers, the lot, you cannot answer.

------------------------------------o O---^5 <((((><
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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8/26/2010 9:08:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hi, I read your posting but I am not sure I understand your question...

Here is what the Church teaches about the Premortal Spirit World - What in particular about this teaching do you have a question about?

-->
Premortal Life

Before we were born on the earth, we lived in the presence of our Heavenly Father as one of His spirit children. In this premortal existence, we attended a council with Heavenly Father's other spirit children. At that council, Heavenly Father presented His great plan of happiness (see Abraham 3:22–26).

In harmony with the plan of happiness, the premortal Jesus Christ, the Firstborn Son of the Father in the spirit, covenanted to be the Savior (see Moses 4:2; Abraham 3:27). Those who followed Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were permitted to come to the earth to experience mortality and progress toward eternal life. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan and "sought to destroy the agency of man" (Moses 4:3). He became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven and denied the privileges of receiving a physical body and experiencing mortality (see Moses 4:4; Abraham 3:27–28).

Throughout our premortal lives, we developed our identity and increased our spiritual capabilities. Blessed with the gift of agency, we made important decisions, such as the decision to follow Heavenly Father's plan. These decisions affected our life then and now. We grew in intelligence and learned to love the truth, and we prepared to come to the earth, where we could continue to progress.
http://lds.org...

------------

In the first paragraph there also we see that the plan was Heavenly Father's plan...Jesus simply volunteered to fill the role of the Savior in the plan.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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8/26/2010 2:23:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/21/2010 9:53:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/21/2010 9:44:06 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Congratulations you don't understand the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
You misunderstand what Satan wanted to do. His plan was not to eliminate the opposition and take the glory for himself, his plan was to force all of us to always choose the right. Thus he would've eliminated our agency, which means we could not have progressed and advanced and therefore the primary purpose of our existence would've been eliminated.
So in a nutshell Satan's plan was
Make everyone always do what was right so there would be no need for a savior or an atonement.

So Satan was not a force for evil, merely had alternative ideas of what was good?

The way I understood it is that Satan wanted us not to have "free will" and for us to ALWAYS do the right thing. And that's bad, how?
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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8/26/2010 2:26:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 2:23:42 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/21/2010 9:53:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/21/2010 9:44:06 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Congratulations you don't understand the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
You misunderstand what Satan wanted to do. His plan was not to eliminate the opposition and take the glory for himself, his plan was to force all of us to always choose the right. Thus he would've eliminated our agency, which means we could not have progressed and advanced and therefore the primary purpose of our existence would've been eliminated.
So in a nutshell Satan's plan was
Make everyone always do what was right so there would be no need for a savior or an atonement.

So Satan was not a force for evil, merely had alternative ideas of what was good?

The way I understood it is that Satan wanted us not to have "free will" and for us to ALWAYS do the right thing. And that's bad, how?

If you're forced to do the right thing, you aren't really doing the right thing, you're just obeying orders. It makes morality impossible.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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8/26/2010 2:29:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 2:26:08 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:23:42 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/21/2010 9:53:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/21/2010 9:44:06 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Congratulations you don't understand the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
You misunderstand what Satan wanted to do. His plan was not to eliminate the opposition and take the glory for himself, his plan was to force all of us to always choose the right. Thus he would've eliminated our agency, which means we could not have progressed and advanced and therefore the primary purpose of our existence would've been eliminated.
So in a nutshell Satan's plan was
Make everyone always do what was right so there would be no need for a savior or an atonement.

So Satan was not a force for evil, merely had alternative ideas of what was good?

The way I understood it is that Satan wanted us not to have "free will" and for us to ALWAYS do the right thing. And that's bad, how?

If you're forced to do the right thing, you aren't really doing the right thing, you're just obeying orders. It makes morality impossible.

And that's evil, how?
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
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8/26/2010 2:53:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/21/2010 2:38:26 AM, the-good-teacher wrote:
-----------------

In the alleged preexistence you teach of, who in the great plan was going to be our opposition on earth in our quest for gaining a body ?

We know Satan is opposing us now,

At the alleged meeting, according to my understanding, Satan had the idea of destroying the opposition and making us do the will of the father, and he (Satan) would get all the glory
Jesus then put forward his plan where he would be sacrificed, this was accepted and all the glory goes to the Father

So who was it ?
I've heard various answers and the only one that makes any sense to me is the story it's self doesn't make sense.

If you answer "it was always going to be Satan" not only are you answering with no scripture to substantiate it, but you are saying that Satan didn't know the answer also, thus he became the opposition he wanted to destroy

Please explain.

-----------------------------------o O---^5 ---><))))>

I struggled with this for a long time. It was one of my main concerns. But then my dad explained it to me in fashion to me that made sense and that I didn't have a problem with.

This is not doctrine and i cold not find any doctrine, so this is the opinion of me and my dad. (2 possibilities)

1)It was unavoidable that it would happen. It might not have been Satan but it was unavoidable that this would happen. (I didn't like this. I really didn't like this for many reasons)

2)Satan didn't have to be the opposition. Actually, if no one had stepped forward then the opposition would have been the natural man. For the natural man is not of god. (I can live with this)
Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
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8/26/2010 2:55:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 2:29:33 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:26:08 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:23:42 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/21/2010 9:53:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/21/2010 9:44:06 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Congratulations you don't understand the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
You misunderstand what Satan wanted to do. His plan was not to eliminate the opposition and take the glory for himself, his plan was to force all of us to always choose the right. Thus he would've eliminated our agency, which means we could not have progressed and advanced and therefore the primary purpose of our existence would've been eliminated.
So in a nutshell Satan's plan was
Make everyone always do what was right so there would be no need for a savior or an atonement.

So Satan was not a force for evil, merely had alternative ideas of what was good?

The way I understood it is that Satan wanted us not to have "free will" and for us to ALWAYS do the right thing. And that's bad, how?

If you're forced to do the right thing, you aren't really doing the right thing, you're just obeying orders. It makes morality impossible.

And that's evil, how?

It took away our agency. The point of this life is for us to choose good over evil and to grow and learn. If we were forced to always choose good and were never given the option of choosing evil then we would have been deprived of a vital experience that we need in order to continue to progress.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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8/26/2010 3:11:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 2:55:43 PM, Kahvan wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:29:33 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:26:08 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:23:42 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/21/2010 9:53:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/21/2010 9:44:06 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Congratulations you don't understand the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
You misunderstand what Satan wanted to do. His plan was not to eliminate the opposition and take the glory for himself, his plan was to force all of us to always choose the right. Thus he would've eliminated our agency, which means we could not have progressed and advanced and therefore the primary purpose of our existence would've been eliminated.
So in a nutshell Satan's plan was
Make everyone always do what was right so there would be no need for a savior or an atonement.

So Satan was not a force for evil, merely had alternative ideas of what was good?

The way I understood it is that Satan wanted us not to have "free will" and for us to ALWAYS do the right thing. And that's bad, how?

If you're forced to do the right thing, you aren't really doing the right thing, you're just obeying orders. It makes morality impossible.

And that's evil, how?

It took away our agency. The point of this life is for us to choose good over evil and to grow and learn. If we were forced to always choose good and were never given the option of choosing evil then we would have been deprived of a vital experience that we need in order to continue to progress.

First of all, that's the "do as I say" method and it has been shown to work. We all went through that phase of our lives and we DID learn what was right & wrong.

Secondly, you are saying that one cannot progress by always doing what's right. So then what's the point of doing what's right?
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
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8/26/2010 3:14:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 3:11:12 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:55:43 PM, Kahvan wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:29:33 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:26:08 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:23:42 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/21/2010 9:53:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/21/2010 9:44:06 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Congratulations you don't understand the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
You misunderstand what Satan wanted to do. His plan was not to eliminate the opposition and take the glory for himself, his plan was to force all of us to always choose the right. Thus he would've eliminated our agency, which means we could not have progressed and advanced and therefore the primary purpose of our existence would've been eliminated.
So in a nutshell Satan's plan was
Make everyone always do what was right so there would be no need for a savior or an atonement.

So Satan was not a force for evil, merely had alternative ideas of what was good?

The way I understood it is that Satan wanted us not to have "free will" and for us to ALWAYS do the right thing. And that's bad, how?

If you're forced to do the right thing, you aren't really doing the right thing, you're just obeying orders. It makes morality impossible.

And that's evil, how?

It took away our agency. The point of this life is for us to choose good over evil and to grow and learn. If we were forced to always choose good and were never given the option of choosing evil then we would have been deprived of a vital experience that we need in order to continue to progress.

First of all, that's the "do as I say" method and it has been shown to work. We all went through that phase of our lives and we DID learn what was right & wrong.

we were able to learn AND have been given the option of choosing to follow good or evil.


Secondly, you are saying that one cannot progress by always doing what's right. So then what's the point of doing what's right?

wrong, you can progress by always doing right so long as you CHOOSE to do it and are not forced to. Forced also including not given the option of choosing evil.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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8/26/2010 3:39:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 3:14:03 PM, Kahvan wrote:
we were able to learn AND have been given the option of choosing to follow good or evil.
So by your own admission, we ARE able to learn without agency.

Secondly, you are saying that one cannot progress by always doing what's right. So then what's the point of doing what's right?
wrong, you can progress by always doing right so long as you CHOOSE to do it and are not forced to.
Fail. You said so yourself (see above.) You agreed that at times we are able to learn even when we lack agency. You have contradicted yourself.

Forced also including not given the option of choosing evil.
I didn't say it was, so this is pointless.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
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8/26/2010 4:28:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 3:39:58 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/26/2010 3:14:03 PM, Kahvan wrote:
we were able to learn AND have been given the option of choosing to follow good or evil.
So by your own admission, we ARE able to learn without agency.
yes we are still able to learn. But only so much. Also a huge part would be missing. Choice. As is previously mentioned one huge part of coming here is choosing to learn and choosing good over evil. Also, we learn so much more by choice and are able to progress even further. Besides who wants their life to be absolutely controlled. If it was controlled you wouldn't be able to truelly know what certain things are. Such as happiness.

If we are all forced to chose good but are told what bad is what is the point if we can't choose? and for those who do choose to do something wrong (all of us at one point or another) we can also choose to be forgiven by following certain steps. But now I am getting slightly off course.


Secondly, you are saying that one cannot progress by always doing what's right. So then what's the point of doing what's right?
wrong, you can progress by always doing right so long as you CHOOSE to do it and are not forced to.
Fail. You said so yourself (see above.) You agreed that at times we are able to learn even when we lack agency. You have contradicted yourself.
Is it really progression? If you are forced to do everything right then even though you are learning you are not progressing as an individual.

Forced also including not given the option of choosing evil.
I didn't say it was, so this is pointless.
This was just to avoid any confusion.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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8/26/2010 5:27:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 4:28:31 PM, Kahvan wrote:
yes we are still able to learn. But only so much.
Why only so much? Who says?

Also a huge part would be missing. Choice.
But would any really miss it? Is it such a horrible price to pay, to be in a place where only good things happen? I thought Heaven was a great place to be in?

As is previously mentioned one huge part of coming here is choosing to learn and choosing good over evil.
Well, if learning is good and we are without agency then we must learn. So I don't see how wouldn't learn as doing good is required and learning is good.

Also, we learn so much more by choice and are able to progress even further.
Says who? How so?

Besides who wants their life to be absolutely controlled. If it was controlled you wouldn't be able to truelly know what certain things are. Such as happiness.
But happiness is good so you would be required to only do good and so you would be happy.

If we are all forced to chose good but are told what bad is what is the point if we can't choose?
The same point as if you could choose because you wouldn't know the difference.

and for those who do choose to do something wrong (all of us at one point or another) we can also choose to be forgiven by following certain steps. But now I am getting slightly off course.
Indeed.

Is it really progression?
I don't know? Were you lying about progression when you made the statement?

If you are forced to do everything right then even though you are learning you are not progressing as an individual.
Why not? I am learning to do everything right, every day I learn more things and how to do them right, etc. I think that's progression, don't you?
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
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8/26/2010 5:50:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 5:27:35 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/26/2010 4:28:31 PM, Kahvan wrote:
yes we are still able to learn. But only so much.
Why only so much? Who says?
Because it be like learning all about basketball through a book as opposed to going learning by playing it.

Also a huge part would be missing. Choice.
But would any really miss it? Is it such a horrible price to pay, to be in a place where only good things happen? I thought Heaven was a great place to be in?
That is not a horrible thing, and in heaven we will all still have choice but only those who choose good will be in heaven.

Yes it is a terrible price but you will learn more with my other answers.

As is previously mentioned one huge part of coming here is choosing to learn and choosing good over evil.
Well, if learning is good and we are without agency then we must learn. So I don't see how wouldn't learn as doing good is required and learning is good.

Also, we learn so much more by choice and are able to progress even further.
Says who? How so?
see previous analogy.

Besides who wants their life to be absolutely controlled. If it was controlled you wouldn't be able to truelly know what certain things are. Such as happiness.
But happiness is good so you would be required to only do good and so you would be happy.
But it wouldn't bring you happiness. Doing good because you are forced too does not bring happiness for 2 key reasons.
1)It will be all you have known so it will be compared to nothing. Thus you cant be happy if you dont know what sadness is like.
2)You are not making the choice to do what brings you happiness. Another is making that choice for you so you gain nothing from it.

If we are all forced to chose good but are told what bad is what is the point if we can't choose?
The same point as if you could choose because you wouldn't know the difference.
?

and for those who do choose to do something wrong (all of us at one point or another) we can also choose to be forgiven by following certain steps. But now I am getting slightly off course.
Indeed.

Is it really progression?
I don't know? Were you lying about progression when you made the statement?
?

If you are forced to do everything right then even though you are learning you are not progressing as an individual.
Why not? I am learning to do everything right, every day I learn more things and how to do them right, etc. I think that's progression, don't you?
Nope, its not. It would be progression if you were choosing to do so. But because it is not your choice you are no better than a mindless drone.