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Have you read Quran?

Dazz
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7/18/2015 12:32:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So I was surfing religious forum & Islam-related threads, which become derailed often, may be, because either the question is not efficiently confined to a purposeful discussion or sometimes the replies are so much diverged that it become nearly impossible to evaluate all of them, under one thread.

By & often I come across multiple views about Islam which remain unanswered because no answer can be provided to a view unless the counter-party presents a case of relevant reasoning or sometimes that view belongs to perceived category instead of being from logical inference. Logical inference is of absolute nature, I can't differ in it as long as I keep disclosing its flaws (if exist any). Hence I come up with a base question that I believe to be the essence of all Islamic topics. That is "have you read the whole Quran from A-Z"?. How much time have you given to read it & to draw logical inferences from its content. [if you're concluding what you want to conclude then that's not your unbiased research, you need to ask & debate & discuss, as long as others have valid argumentation to debunk your conclusion, you must behave responsively, same goes to my side]

Some criticism include...

Q: Its outdated...?
Islam is the religion that rely on progressive "Ijtihad" that means struggling to find out the solution of current issues in the light if predefined (basic) rules, it's definitely no where else. Calling it outdated is certainly lack of knowledge about its jurisprudencial process. [Ijtihad doesn't interfere in the faith system, that's established already, it only work over practical issues, so one must not misunderstand that Ijtihad can change any basic of Islam belief system, that would be invalid inference then].

Q: It calls to fight, & Jesus (Salam upon him) absolutely denied fighting....? Or it's copied from pagan or Christian religions...?
What about Moses (Salam upon him)? Didn't he fight to Paroah to free the land of his people from that oppressor king? What about previous Messengers? If I'm not wrong all three religions Judaism, Christianity & Islam (termed to be after Prophet Ibrahim Salam upon him) believe in one God_ALLAH. Surely it's not a new name to the world, any difference of wording is of language differences not for the entity. Don't all these religions have the concept of Dajjal? Yes they have. Don't Christian talk about re-arrival of Jesus? Yes they believe it. Are not Christians differing over the Jesus life? Yes they differ. Quran resolve the issue that Jesus didn't get death, he is alive in heavens & will come back to this Ummat when Dajjal [the liar who'll claimed to be god] will appear. Jesus will kill Dijjal [along with the people of Imam Mehdi]. So shortly, if Islam & Quran presents something about the previous religions that is because it's in alliance to one religious realm from God, but it also rectifies the false about which the previous religious sects are disputing. So thinking that it's copied is not supported by logic.

Quran 3:70. O People of the Book! Why are you denying Allah"s Revelations whilst you bear witness yourselves (i.e., you have read everything in your Books)?
Quran 3:80. Nor would that Messenger ever command you to take the angels and the Prophets as Lords. Would he command you (now) to disbelieve after you have become Muslims?
Quran 3:84. Say: "We believe in Allah and in that which has been sent down to us and in that which has been revealed to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma"il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac) and Ya"qub (Jacob) and their descendants and that which has been given to Musa (Moses), "Isa (Jesus) and all other Messengers by their Lord (we believe in all). We do not make distinction in our faith in any of them, and to Him we submit ourselves."

So above all, I've not currently presented any case, because my purpose here is not to support any view but to have a discussion with those who've studied the Quran completely, & if they have some ambiguity, I'd like to hear, so as to get the issue.

Please don't spam by posting hatred & polarized rivalry.

Advance thanks to well-mannered participants.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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7/18/2015 1:28:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
why would i?
if there was a GOD and that GOD wanted me to know about him, then why wouldn't GOD be able to be able to communicate directly?

is your GOD that weak, or just lazy?
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,482
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7/18/2015 1:32:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
no they dont just surfing in anti islamic sites to copy bullsht and after that they feel the did somthing great they became a scholar of Islam u know BCC and Foxnews people...
Never fart near dog
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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7/18/2015 1:40:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:28:16 PM, DanMGTOW wrote:
why would i?
if there was a GOD and that GOD wanted me to know about him, then why wouldn't GOD be able to be able to communicate directly?

is your GOD that weak, or just lazy?

This one. Look, you want to command the God?
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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7/18/2015 10:13:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:32:46 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
no they dont just surfing in anti islamic sites to copy bullsht and after that they feel the did somthing great they became a scholar of Islam u know BCC and Foxnews people...

That seems about right.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/18/2015 10:42:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've read the Quran three times now. I know in Arabic the words are reported to be poetic but as a Christian reading Muhammad's book I find it's tone ugly, sinister, always threatening revenge of Allah if one doesn't agree with Muhammad's personal invisible friend he says is Allah or God. When I check with other Christians who have read the Quran we seem to be in agreement about the nasty tone of Muhammad's god. And of course, the violence is totally unacceptable as no one is representing God when they demand killing of innocents and killing for merely holding different beliefs. The killing destroys any spiritual credibility in Muhammad or his god, or his book, or his religion.

Only desperate people who will accept religious dictatorship and denial of human rights can accept Muhammad's beliefs. Ignorant people, ones who lack education or whose societies are still stuck in ancient cultural ways where despotism rules, these ones will go for Muhammad, as they are used to the idea of the Strong Man ruling. Jesus Christ and Christianity seems to weak for these macho minded Muhammadans but they don't know God, can't access God by themselves, so only what Muhammad knows is what Muhammadan believers know. God is on the side of human rights which are way the Meek will inherit the earth. Muhammad is on the side of Muhammad and as such was against both God and Humanity.

Ahmadiyyah's are worthy Muslims but Muhammadan clones are as Churchill expressed: dangerous as a man with rabies..
UniversalTheologian
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7/18/2015 11:13:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 10:42:53 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
I've read the Quran three times now. I know in Arabic the words are reported to be poetic but as a Christian reading Muhammad's book I find it's tone ugly, sinister, always threatening revenge of Allah if one doesn't agree with Muhammad's personal invisible friend he says is Allah or God. When I check with other Christians who have read the Quran we seem to be in agreement about the nasty tone of Muhammad's god. And of course, the violence is totally unacceptable as no one is representing God when they demand killing of innocents and killing for merely holding different beliefs. The killing destroys any spiritual credibility in Muhammad or his god, or his book, or his religion.

Only desperate people who will accept religious dictatorship and denial of human rights can accept Muhammad's beliefs. Ignorant people, ones who lack education or whose societies are still stuck in ancient cultural ways where despotism rules, these ones will go for Muhammad, as they are used to the idea of the Strong Man ruling. Jesus Christ and Christianity seems to weak for these macho minded Muhammadans but they don't know God, can't access God by themselves, so only what Muhammad knows is what Muhammadan believers know. God is on the side of human rights which are way the Meek will inherit the earth. Muhammad is on the side of Muhammad and as such was against both God and Humanity.

Ahmadiyyah's are worthy Muslims but Muhammadan clones are as Churchill expressed: dangerous as a man with rabies..

Sincerity of faith, and loving charity is the way of life that the Qur'an outlines. You don't understand it, probably because you were reading the Qur'an with the intent to find something wrong with it.

I don't get the impression you understand what you are reading in the Qur'an, because if you understood it, you wouldn't have a problem with it.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
kp98
Posts: 729
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7/18/2015 11:50:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
as Churchill expressed: dangerous as a man with rabies..

Actually he said a 'as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog', but close enough. I hope your more careful in your quotation of the Koran!
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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7/20/2015 4:33:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:40:54 PM, Dazz wrote:
This one. Look, you want to command the God?

are you referring to the GOD of abraham?
since i know that i am morally superior to the GOD of abraham, i have no reason to worship any GOD mentioned in the torah, bible, or quran.

but if you are incapable of building a moral code, and have to rely on a book to tell you what is right and wrong, then it's good to know your limits.
do me a favor, if your GOD tells you to kill a child, just say no.
abraham failed that moral test.
Julia5678
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7/20/2015 5:15:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:28:16 PM, DanMGTOW wrote:
why would i?
if there was a GOD and that GOD wanted me to know about him, then why wouldn't GOD be able to be able to communicate directly?

is your GOD that weak, or just lazy?

How do you know that God doesn't communicate with you directly? Maybe He does and you cannot hear Him. Seems like you are an atheist. There are many signs of God around you. Maybe you are too blind to see them. God is talking to us through heavenly books to open the ears and eyes of our hearts, so that we can see God and hear him when He talks directly to us. When we want God to talk to us, we read the Quran. And when we want to talk to God, we pray...
Julia5678
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7/20/2015 5:37:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 4:33:14 AM, DanMGTOW wrote:

do me a favor, if your GOD tells you to kill a child, just say no.
abraham failed that moral test.

"And do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and for you. Indeed, their killing is ever a great sin." (The Quran 17:31)

On the contrary, Prophet Abraham passed the test. When you read about something, read it completely and carefully. God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his firstborn son, Ishmael. He wanted to test Abraham, Prophet Abraham who always obeyed God, took his son to the vally of Mecca. But when he wanted to slaughter him, the knife didn't cut his head. Abraham tried a few times but nothing happened. Then God revealed to Abraham and told him that he has passed his test an that he should slaughter a sheep instead. From that time, Muslims slaughter sheep when they perform Hajj.
Dazz
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7/20/2015 9:18:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 4:33:14 AM, DanMGTOW wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:40:54 PM, Dazz wrote:
This one. Look, you want to command the God?

are you referring to the GOD of abraham?
since i know that i am morally superior to the GOD of abraham, i have no reason to worship any GOD mentioned in the torah, bible, or quran.
You said you know that you're superior that means you've made "your self-desires" your god. Isn't it so?

but if you are incapable of building a moral code, and have to rely on a book to tell you what is right and wrong, then it's good to know your limits.
Again if you'd keep placing your self & your abilities at a priority that means you've yet to come out of your egoism. About human limitations, those are quite clear, if one keeps denying, one is denying reality. The approach of your wishes is limited to the availability of sources, you can't establish your order after of your limit.
do me a favor, if your GOD tells you to kill a child, just say no.
abraham failed that moral test.

God asked Ibrahim [salam upon him] to sacrifice the most beloved. Most beloved to him [in world] was his son. His son got ready too [though he was not ordered by God to be sacrificed, this is very clear point for an unbiased analyst to understand that theme was love of God]. Because they both loved God, more than they loved each other. God saved Ismael [the kid]. God can do anything what wills, so He could have given new life to a death kid as He gives life for the first time, but God loved both of them, & accepted their submission, so replaced the kid with sheep before any harm could reach to kid, & he remained safe. This has two aspects, first God chooses his beloved Prophets & then made them of higher rank, so as they become example of submission of God. Secondly God don't ask man to do what is out of his capacity, but if ask something then made man capable of doing that. That event is to clarify the Ibrahim's higher degree & rank, & his level of submission [to teach the others] but others aren't required to sacrifice [kill] their kids. Then why don't you also quote when God saved Ibrahim from that fire of king [who claimed to be a god]. That fire became cool & couldn't harm to him. If you believe in kid story [to support your view] then believe in fire story too, that's clearly explaining that Ibrahim's God is true God [means God which his Prophets taught about_one God_free from defects].

Anyhow, if you keep searching & evaluating for my God & your God separately, you'd end up at worshiping your self, in a sense that it urges you to prioritize your self-made god. First you need to understand that your & mine God is one. People differ in religions because some fails to define God accurately. If you understand the relationship between you & God, & you search for God's way, God helps you to find that out. But if you start questioning God's way to be of your desire & thought, that means you want your self-made god. God is the one whose's Order works. Prophets links us to God because this is how God wills. If you deny Prophets & give more weight to your thinking, & believe that your thinking may lead you to the right path, that's fallacy. Similarly if you think or believe that God should not order you anything outside of your desire or standard, then you've made your desire your god. Otherwise believing in God means submission.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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7/20/2015 10:41:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
at least you admit that your GOD commanded a human sacrafice
and then changed his mind, back tracked and realized how stupid that would be
if abraham actually followed through with it.

proving to me, that if GOD was all knowing, then your GOD is an idiot
although that would explain why people have such a hard time understanding the "will of GOD". the mentally handicapped are extremely hard to understand

which goes back to my earlier statement
if your GOD tells you to kill a child, JUST SAY NO
Dazz
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7/21/2015 1:28:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 10:41:53 AM, DanMGTOW wrote:
at least you admit that your GOD commanded a human sacrafice
If you don't understand something: ask. But please don't break my expectation that you can at least make a point to support your opinion. I've already answered your objection by establishing that "if you draw some specifications for your god by your desire, that would be absurd to call him "god", because it follows that you've anyhow made "your desire" your 'god'. Is it clear? Now for the next time, replying responsively, either accept my point or present something which is sufficient to debunk it [not just present your view which I can't debate over unless you're really interested sincerely & not ranting solely].

and then changed his mind, back tracked and realized how stupid that would be if abraham actually followed through with it.
This is your false assumption. You have yourself assumed that all, without asking & getting some knowledge about God's will. You seems to be very naive to that concept. Let me teach you; God's Will is God's attribute, that would never change [just like other attributes like knowledge & Power etc remain same]. It's established by God's definition. There can't occur any excess or deficiency in God's attribute because any change would render the changed position as better than the other one. It renders one stage at minimum that would be defective in regard of new position. So, God's Will as the cause of all happenings around us doesn't change. Change that we observe, is in the 'result'. All changes are already in God's knowledge & are according to God's Will which has no start, no end, thus no change.

So you need to either admit [& understand frankly] the true God's definition or present your different definition & god's attribute, so as we could reach at a reasonable point of discussion.

proving to me, that if GOD was all knowing, then your GOD is an idiot
Does paganism teach that god isn't all knowing? If yes, then your concept & definition of god is not just idiotic but defective too. But if you believe that God is all-knowing, then you don't need hand-made idols to worship them.

although that would explain why people have such a hard time understanding the "will of GOD". the mentally handicapped are extremely hard to understand
Again it's not sufficient to understand your purpose & belief system. Present YOUR VIEW & supporting reasoning. I've abundantly explained about God's Will.

which goes back to my earlier statement
if your GOD tells you to kill a child, JUST SAY NO
It goes back to my earlier statement: if you're ready to accept some self-explanatory expectations & desires, then you've made yourself your god.

I hope that you'd contribute & understand that you need to progress in your reasoning because you repeated the same objections which I've already answered.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
DanMGTOW
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7/21/2015 2:05:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 1:28:30 PM, Dazz wrote:
it's not my fault, that your GOD wrote a book, that is so very easy to misinterpret
from my point of view, abraham had a delusion, and the shock of almost killing his son, snapped him back to reality, and abraham came up with the story that GOD told him to kill isaac. better yet, a merciful GOD could have saved isaac from his delusional father
Dazz
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7/22/2015 6:55:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 2:05:41 PM, DanMGTOW wrote:
At 7/21/2015 1:28:30 PM, Dazz wrote:
it's not my fault, that your GOD wrote a book, that is so very easy to misinterpret
from my point of view, abraham had a delusion, and the shock of almost killing his son, snapped him back to reality, and abraham came up with the story that GOD told him to kill isaac. better yet, a merciful GOD could have saved isaac from his delusional father

It's quite evocative what your fault is; I can't expect a little of your ability to interpret anything while you don't even know that story is not of Isaac (salam upon him).
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
DanMGTOW
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7/22/2015 2:42:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
if you believe in any GOD, then pray that i receive proof that any GOD is real. i want a life changing event, no matter what it takes. does anyone care enough to spend 20 seconds praying for that simple request? how many prayers does it take for your GOD to act?
August_Burns_Red
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7/22/2015 3:54:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I tried to read it once at the urging of a Muslim friend.

I don't know, after about twenty minutes I began flipping through it. I found it prettty sterile and boring. A lot of commands to worship Allah. A lot of criticism and ideas of hurting or even killing Infidels. It read more like a rule book and a rant than a Holy Book.

I found none of the beauty and poetry and imagery of the Bible in the Koran. It was very disappointing to me. I feel sorry for people who base their lives on it.

Of course being a modern day American I probably missed some of the intended context and meaning of it. And I hear from a lot of Islamists that the Koran is much better when read aloud in Arabic.That is is more poetic.

I hope so for them because the way I found it to be was one huge turn-off and disappointment. I read some history on Mohammed too and he does not seem to be much of a man of God. He sure began starting wars right away after he received the Word, from Allah, didn't he? He seemed to my more like a con man type. I think he WAS a salesman type? Like a merchant? Illiterate? Married a little kid?
No thanks. I will take Jesus any day and twice on Sunday. Ha!
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
celestialtorahteacher
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7/22/2015 11:47:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So, to sum up, when non-Muslims read the Quran they don't like it and when they say so to Muslims the Muslims say they didn't read the Quran right. Yeah...sure..right..

It's so beautifully written it speaks for itself and there's no confusion in religion as everyone knows Islam is a religion of peaceful believers. Yeah...sure...right..
Dazz
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7/23/2015 3:58:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 2:42:13 PM, DanMGTOW wrote:
if you believe in any GOD, then pray that i receive proof that any GOD is real. i want a life changing event, no matter what it takes. does anyone care enough to spend 20 seconds praying for that simple request?

I pray to ALLAH Almighty for you; may ALLAH Almighty help you to find out His way & open up your heart soon enough to receive the guidance. You also long & pray to ALLAH, so as He show you His signs.

how many prayers does it take for your GOD to act?
Acceptance of prayers is delayed as much as we expect it to be delayed. Means God meets man as a man perceives Him to be. Acceptance of man's pure effort & love for God is guaranteedly accepted by Him.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
MadCornishBiker
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7/23/2015 4:03:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 12:32:00 PM, Dazz wrote:
So I was surfing religious forum & Islam-related threads, which become derailed often, may be, because either the question is not efficiently confined to a purposeful discussion or sometimes the replies are so much diverged that it become nearly impossible to evaluate all of them, under one thread.

By & often I come across multiple views about Islam which remain unanswered because no answer can be provided to a view unless the counter-party presents a case of relevant reasoning or sometimes that view belongs to perceived category instead of being from logical inference. Logical inference is of absolute nature, I can't differ in it as long as I keep disclosing its flaws (if exist any). Hence I come up with a base question that I believe to be the essence of all Islamic topics. That is "have you read the whole Quran from A-Z"?. How much time have you given to read it & to draw logical inferences from its content. [if you're concluding what you want to conclude then that's not your unbiased research, you need to ask & debate & discuss, as long as others have valid argumentation to debunk your conclusion, you must behave responsively, same goes to my side]

Some criticism include...

Q: Its outdated...?
Islam is the religion that rely on progressive "Ijtihad" that means struggling to find out the solution of current issues in the light if predefined (basic) rules, it's definitely no where else. Calling it outdated is certainly lack of knowledge about its jurisprudencial process. [Ijtihad doesn't interfere in the faith system, that's established already, it only work over practical issues, so one must not misunderstand that Ijtihad can change any basic of Islam belief system, that would be invalid inference then].

Q: It calls to fight, & Jesus (Salam upon him) absolutely denied fighting....? Or it's copied from pagan or Christian religions...?
What about Moses (Salam upon him)? Didn't he fight to Paroah to free the land of his people from that oppressor king? What about previous Messengers? If I'm not wrong all three religions Judaism, Christianity & Islam (termed to be after Prophet Ibrahim Salam upon him) believe in one God_ALLAH. Surely it's not a new name to the world, any difference of wording is of language differences not for the entity. Don't all these religions have the concept of Dajjal? Yes they have. Don't Christian talk about re-arrival of Jesus? Yes they believe it. Are not Christians differing over the Jesus life? Yes they differ. Quran resolve the issue that Jesus didn't get death, he is alive in heavens & will come back to this Ummat when Dajjal [the liar who'll claimed to be god] will appear. Jesus will kill Dijjal [along with the people of Imam Mehdi]. So shortly, if Islam & Quran presents something about the previous religions that is because it's in alliance to one religious realm from God, but it also rectifies the false about which the previous religious sects are disputing. So thinking that it's copied is not supported by logic.

Quran 3:70. O People of the Book! Why are you denying Allah"s Revelations whilst you bear witness yourselves (i.e., you have read everything in your Books)?
Quran 3:80. Nor would that Messenger ever command you to take the angels and the Prophets as Lords. Would he command you (now) to disbelieve after you have become Muslims?
Quran 3:84. Say: "We believe in Allah and in that which has been sent down to us and in that which has been revealed to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma"il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac) and Ya"qub (Jacob) and their descendants and that which has been given to Musa (Moses), "Isa (Jesus) and all other Messengers by their Lord (we believe in all). We do not make distinction in our faith in any of them, and to Him we submit ourselves."

So above all, I've not currently presented any case, because my purpose here is not to support any view but to have a discussion with those who've studied the Quran completely, & if they have some ambiguity, I'd like to hear, so as to get the issue.

Please don't spam by posting hatred & polarized rivalry.

Advance thanks to well-mannered participants.

Yes, and it is one of the most evilly inspired distortions of history that ever was.

It turns God's word upside down from Abraham onwards especially.
DanMGTOW
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7/23/2015 4:54:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 3:58:38 AM, Dazz wrote:
At 7/22/2015 2:42:13 PM, DanMGTOW wrote:
if you believe in any GOD, then pray that i receive proof that any GOD is real. i want a life changing event, no matter what it takes. does anyone care enough to spend 20 seconds praying for that simple request?

I pray to ALLAH Almighty for you; may ALLAH Almighty help you to find out His way & open up your heart soon enough to receive the guidance. You also long & pray to ALLAH, so as He show you His signs.

how many prayers does it take for your GOD to act?
Acceptance of prayers is delayed as much as we expect it to be delayed. Means God meets man as a man perceives Him to be. Acceptance of man's pure effort & love for God is guaranteedly accepted by Him.

well that is convenient, then apparently ALLAH wants me to be an atheist.
i stopped believing in things that i have no evidence for.
if a book says 99 things that are true, and 1 thing that is impossible, do you believe the impossible as well?
Dazz
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7/23/2015 5:24:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 3:54:14 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
I tried to read it once at the urging of a Muslim friend.
Thanks for your reply. But I've found some concrete points to discuss.

I don't know, after about twenty minutes I began flipping through it. I found it prettty sterile and boring.
Alright, my question was, did you finish reading it fully?
A lot of commands to worship Allah.
Generally speaking; isn't it what should be the essence of life, when ALLAH alone is our creator?
A lot of criticism and ideas of hurting or even killing Infidels.
As long as hurting infidels "unjustly" matters that's debatable & is a conflicting claim that needs to be proved yet, so leave it for a while. I need another perspective to be cleared first. If Islam or Quran claims to be authentic, shouldn't it logically debunk the opposite? That's the logical requirement to justify the authentic & to prove the false unauthentic & I can prove that Quran deals with reasoning rather appeal its readers to have rational argumentation while drawing conclusion. Thus any valid & justified criticism of wrong beliefs is logically justified, this should not be any point of contention. On contrary if one claims to to true but also appreciate [i.e. not condemning] the false that's self-contradiction & thus irrational. After all, Bible or Christianity condemns or criticize polytheism & that's very much rational.
It read more like a rule book and a rant than a Holy Book.
May be because you see it against you & when I read it, I see it as a blessing and rewarding. So if you'd imply your personal experience to be fair & unbiased, then via this reasoning, you'd also have to accept the personal experience of Muslims to be fair too. Otherwise my argument that opposing the contradictory [false] is compulsory for a claim of truth, would still apply, here. So finally I think, these objections don't qualify to be any point of contention between us.
I found none of the beauty and poetry and imagery of the Bible in the Koran. It was very disappointing to me. I feel sorry for people who base their lives on it.
People get doubt sometimes that God's word is in a poetry form because it don't follow sentence structure that we follow. But interestingly [you'd agree that], God's word is also not in the poetic form (nor it can be, because God's word has no match in the world). I can surely say, Bible also don't follow the structure of [poetic] verses, the word "verse" is wrongly given to that God's "sign" [of book].

Of course being a modern day American I probably missed some of the intended context and meaning of it. And I hear from a lot of Islamists that the Koran is much better when read aloud in Arabic.That is is more poetic.

I hope so for them because the way I found it to be was one huge turn-off and disappointment. I read some history on Mohammed too and he does not seem to be much of a man of God. He sure began starting wars right away after he received the Word, from Allah, didn't he? He seemed to my more like a con man type. I think he WAS a salesman type? Like a merchant? Illiterate? Married a little kid?
No you missed many things. Miracles, forgiveness, conformity to contracts, tolerance, mercy to enemies, knowledge of unseen, curing, generosity, simplicity in living standard, affection to poor, savior of humanity from brutal customs & much more. If you make your reading spectrum wide, picture'd be better clear to you, otherwise supporting your opinion through historical proof & then ignoring the other part of same history would a biased research. Rather a half fact is a perfect proof of non-factual story.
No thanks. I will take Jesus any day and twice on Sunday. Ha!
My faith demands me to accept all the messengers & Prophets [salam upon all of them] of ALLAH Almighty & their teachings. But surprisingly, Jesus has a special connection to us as his re-arrival as a savior of Muslims from Dijjal has already been mentioned in Hadees, because we believe God saved his man from the cross & he is alive in heaven & will come back as a follower Islamic shariah. Anyhow I shared it all for information sake & I still need a more justified response, rest you are better aware about your sincerity to search & comprehend, I'm no way offended as long as others remain frank decently, prayer for you.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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7/23/2015 5:46:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 4:54:17 AM, DanMGTOW wrote:
At 7/23/2015 3:58:38 AM, Dazz wrote:
At 7/22/2015 2:42:13 PM, DanMGTOW wrote:
if you believe in any GOD, then pray that i receive proof that any GOD is real. i want a life changing event, no matter what it takes. does anyone care enough to spend 20 seconds praying for that simple request?

I pray to ALLAH Almighty for you; may ALLAH Almighty help you to find out His way & open up your heart soon enough to receive the guidance. You also long & pray to ALLAH, so as He show you His signs.

how many prayers does it take for your GOD to act?
Acceptance of prayers is delayed as much as we expect it to be delayed. Means God meets man as a man perceives Him to be. Acceptance of man's pure effort & love for God is guaranteedly accepted by Him.

well that is convenient, then apparently ALLAH wants me to be an atheist.
ALLAH knows what you're going to do & die as. And I said; God is as you perceives him to be. Perceive Him that he'd guide you, he'd guide. Perceive God wants you to be an atheist, God would keep you atheist, retrospectively you'd remain atheist.
i stopped believing in things that i have no evidence for.
Did you try praying? I'm sure that'll work. What I can say else.
if a book says 99 things that are true, and 1 thing that is impossible, do you believe the impossible as well?
Would you elaborate? I couldn't get. How do you know that what you're implying.....
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
DanMGTOW
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7/23/2015 7:19:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 5:46:23 AM, Dazz wrote:
Did you try praying? I'm sure that'll work. What I can say else.

i used to pray, then i gave up, because i don't have any faith left.
if your GOD wants to be a part of my life, then GOD should know exactly what it would take. so either GOD is incapable of doing it, or GOD doesn't want to be, yet.
Dazz
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7/23/2015 8:02:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 7:19:59 AM, DanMGTOW wrote:
At 7/23/2015 5:46:23 AM, Dazz wrote:
Did you try praying? I'm sure that'll work. What I can say else.

i used to pray, then i gave up, because i don't have any faith left.
if your GOD wants to be a part of my life, then GOD should know exactly what it would take. so either GOD is incapable of doing it, or GOD doesn't want to be, yet.

If you blame over God that he'd made you atheist, then you are at least aware of God but still denying & are being agreed at denial, thus rejection on denial basis is not legitimated. Rest if you're confused & not sure, then don't fear to read Quran.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
DanMGTOW
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7/23/2015 8:17:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 8:02:03 AM, Dazz wrote:

If you blame over God that he'd made you atheist, then you are at least aware of God but still denying & are being agreed at denial, thus rejection on denial basis is not legitimated. Rest if you're confused & not sure, then don't fear to read Quran.

do you blame santa, for not believing in santa?
show me proof that your GOD is real, then i'll consider reading the Quran
or is your GOD incapable of using you to convince me?
if you don't have that much faith in your GOD, then it proves how useless faith is, at least to me.
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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7/23/2015 8:35:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If Allah exists then why does he only exist for Arabs?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/23/2015 12:57:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 5:24:43 AM, Dazz wrote:
At 7/22/2015 3:54:14 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
I tried to read it once at the urging of a Muslim friend.
Thanks for your reply. But I've found some concrete points to discuss.

I don't know, after about twenty minutes I began flipping through it. I found it prettty sterile and boring.
Alright, my question was, did you finish reading it fully?
A lot of commands to worship Allah.
Generally speaking; isn't it what should be the essence of life, when ALLAH alone is our creator?
A lot of criticism and ideas of hurting or even killing Infidels.
As long as hurting infidels "unjustly" matters that's debatable & is a conflicting claim that needs to be proved yet, so leave it for a while. I need another perspective to be cleared first. If Islam or Quran claims to be authentic, shouldn't it logically debunk the opposite? That's the logical requirement to justify the authentic & to prove the false unauthentic & I can prove that Quran deals with reasoning rather appeal its readers to have rational argumentation while drawing conclusion. Thus any valid & justified criticism of wrong beliefs is logically justified, this should not be any point of contention. On contrary if one claims to to true but also appreciate [i.e. not condemning] the false that's self-contradiction & thus irrational. After all, Bible or Christianity condemns or criticize polytheism & that's very much rational.
It read more like a rule book and a rant than a Holy Book.
May be because you see it against you & when I read it, I see it as a blessing and rewarding. So if you'd imply your personal experience to be fair & unbiased, then via this reasoning, you'd also have to accept the personal experience of Muslims to be fair too. Otherwise my argument that opposing the contradictory [false] is compulsory for a claim of truth, would still apply, here. So finally I think, these objections don't qualify to be any point of contention between us.
I found none of the beauty and poetry and imagery of the Bible in the Koran. It was very disappointing to me. I feel sorry for people who base their lives on it.
People get doubt sometimes that God's word is in a poetry form because it don't follow sentence structure that we follow. But interestingly [you'd agree that], God's word is also not in the poetic form (nor it can be, because God's word has no match in the world). I can surely say, Bible also don't follow the structure of [poetic] verses, the word "verse" is wrongly given to that God's "sign" [of book].

Of course being a modern day American I probably missed some of the intended context and meaning of it. And I hear from a lot of Islamists that the Koran is much better when read aloud in Arabic.That is is more poetic.

I hope so for them because the way I found it to be was one huge turn-off and disappointment. I read some history on Mohammed too and he does not seem to be much of a man of God. He sure began starting wars right away after he received the Word, from Allah, didn't he? He seemed to my more like a con man type. I think he WAS a salesman type? Like a merchant? Illiterate? Married a little kid?
No you missed many things. Miracles, forgiveness, conformity to contracts, tolerance, mercy to enemies, knowledge of unseen, curing, generosity, simplicity in living standard, affection to poor, savior of humanity from brutal customs & much more. If you make your reading spectrum wide, picture'd be better clear to you, otherwise supporting your opinion through historical proof & then ignoring the other part of same history would a biased research. Rather a half fact is a perfect proof of non-factual story.
No thanks. I will take Jesus any day and twice on Sunday. Ha!
My faith demands me to accept all the messengers & Prophets [salam upon all of them] of ALLAH Almighty & their teachings. But surprisingly, Jesus has a special connection to us as his re-arrival as a savior of Muslims from Dijjal has already been mentioned in Hadees, because we believe God saved his man from the cross & he is alive in heaven & will come back as a follower Islamic shariah. Anyhow I shared it all for information sake & I still need a more justified response, rest you are better aware about your sincerity to search & comprehend, I'm no way offended as long as others remain frank decently, prayer for you.

yeah....whatever, brother. I reckon this is just another example of "to each their own." That proverb also applies to choosing our Gods and our theologies. religions. no offense, many...but Islam and the koran is not my cup of tea. I find nothing alluring in that book. besides I have already been saved--with an irrefutably real and self-shaking experience. and the theme of my Vision when I was saved was from the Christian Gospels. So I reckon I will stick with what works and what God wants for me.
But..good luck with that Islam thing.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!