Total Posts:4|Showing Posts:1-4
Jump to topic:

Jesus: Bastard bastard son of Pantera?

Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/20/2015 12:07:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hey fellow mutants!

I was recently discussing this topic with another member on a different thread. And was suprised that he--an alleged knowledgeable bible history person--was not aware of this fact. That many many theologians--including the folks who wrote the Talmud!--believe Jesus of Nazareth to have been borne the bastard son of an unwed Mary. The product of her affair with Roman Soldier "Pantera."

There are many many sources and links for this avaiable. I will provide two of them for you.

This story--fact--actually explains a lot about the gospel writers and how they took pains to cover it up with the whole Virgin Birth narratives.

What say you? Does this fact in any way erode your thoughts of Jesus?

Thanks!!

https://en.wikipedia.org...

http://robinhl.com...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
kp98
Posts: 729
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/20/2015 1:40:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hmm... there was no love lost between the Jews and early Christians (who were obbiously in competition for adherents). There is plenty of anti-Jew stuff in the NT, so I think it quite likely Mary was being slandered in an attempt to undermine the attractiveness of Christianity.

I'm not saying Mary was a virgin or that she definitely didn't have and affair with a Roman soldier (after all Jewish women may not have been in a strong position to say 'No'), but it smells like a bit of character assassination all the same.

Mt guess of the chance of being true (assuming Mary was the mother of Jesus at all) - about 20%, chance of it being pure slander - 80%. But I'm not going to argue anyone's other numbers.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/20/2015 3:22:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 1:40:41 PM, kp98 wrote:
Hmm... there was no love lost between the Jews and early Christians (who were obbiously in competition for adherents). There is plenty of anti-Jew stuff in the NT, so I think it quite likely Mary was being slandered in an attempt to undermine the attractiveness of Christianity.

I'm not saying Mary was a virgin or that she definitely didn't have and affair with a Roman soldier (after all Jewish women may not have been in a strong position to say 'No'), but it smells like a bit of character assassination all the same.

Mt guess of the chance of being true (assuming Mary was the mother of Jesus at all) - about 20%, chance of it being pure slander - 80%. But I'm not going to argue anyone's other numbers.

Wrong.

The Talmud is merely one source of evidence for Jesus being the biological son of Pantera. There are many others. More, even, than sources who claim he was the product of a Virgin Birth--which, BTW, is only mentioned in two of the four gospels. And Paul, who wrote BEFORE any of the Gospel writers, makes NO mention of it.

See! With Pantera, we have sources OUTSIDE of the Bible. The Virgin Birth story has ZERO secular references. Besides.....**sigh** many other religions (most?) also have virgin birth narratives. Some of them which PRE-DATE the Gospels.

There was a second century Greek philosopher named Celsus, who was very skeptical of Jesus' purported immaculate conception. He claimed to have searched the available records and determined that Jesus was the bastard son of Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera of Sidon (...sometimes Panthera), a Roman soldier who impregnated Mary. It is unknown whether Pantera raped or seduced Mary but, according to Celsus, Joseph first rejected Mary's unborn child and later relented. Celsus claimed to have documents to substantiate his claim.

Unfortunately, after Christianity became Rome's official state religion in 380, and after the first manuscript of the Latin Bible was completed in 384, Catholic Emperor Theodosius ordered a purge of all public records which contradicted the New Testament's version of Jesus' life. There was a suspicious fire at the Library of Alexandria and Celsus' scroll and evidence were apparently destroyed.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
kp98
Posts: 729
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/20/2015 4:31:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sometimes I think you take all this debate/forum stuff more seriously than I do, SoM.

With Pantera, we have sources OUTSIDE of the Bible

Yes, I checked. 2nd century - quite a long time after the events. Hardly proof positive of anything as we only have Origen's word for it that Celsus claimed to have looked in ancient records that were supposed to have said... would every rape/relationship of a Jewish girl and a Roman soldier be recorded? Methinks there would be a lot of such records.... or maybe, none.

I won't bother to quote any of several anti-Jewish passages in the NT, but is clear that there was tension between Jews and Christians. Casting aspertions about Mary would be part of the rough and tumble of religious politics. Perhaps the Celsus came across some slander (ok libel), not honest reporting. He was after all biased, being an admitted opponent of the virgin birth. Such people generally find what they are looking for, even if they have to make it up. I am sure that SoM would be the last person to insist that everyting written around that time is to be trusted!

As a card-carrying atheist, I don't suppose for one minute in the virgin birth - I did say so in my post. I am not sure if Jesus even existed - but for the purpose of this thread I was willing to accept that there was a Jesus, albeit a fully human one. Otherwise we'd be discussing the reality of Jesus, not whether there is any truth to the Pantera story.

There is next to nothing to be known for certain about those days (except we can safely throw out the all the supernatural stuff of course). Did Mary get raped by a roman soldier and Joseph married her to hide her shame, or whatever? Maybe, maybe no. On balance, I stick with my 80/20 estimate, even if SoM would put different numbers on it.