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The Gospel

anonymouswho
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7/20/2015 12:14:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hello everyone. I hope to talk to my Christian brothers and sisters, so if you are Atheist or Agnostic, I respectfully ask that you keep all questions relevant to Scripture and the topic. Thank you.

This is very hard for me to do. Even before I start writing this, I already feel as Paul felt when writing to the Corinthians:

"But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness.
For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me?
And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you." 2 Corinthians 2:1

I will perhaps say things that are very offensive to some of you. I do not want to offend anyone, nor do I wish to bring confusion, and that is why I'm writing this with literal fear and trembling.

I hope to discuss the purpose of mankind, the Sovereignty of God, and the Good News that has been revealed to us through Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ). Paul tells us there is one Gospel:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." Galatians 1:6

But how are we to be sure that the Gospel we know is not another? There is a gospel from the Catholics, another from the Protestants, and from within the Protestants there are possibly hundreds of differing gospels. There are Jehovah Witnesses, Latter-Day Saints, Messianic Jews, Amish, prosperity preachers, hell-fire preachers, and several nondenominational subgroups.

Each group has its own set of rules and standards; faith-alone, salvation from works, sacraments, Arminianism, Calvanism, KJV-onlyism, trinitarianism, modalism, Arianism, speaking in tongues, ect....

How can anyone be sure that what they believe is the correct Gospel?

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling." 1 Corinthians 2:2

Let us start from the beginning, when we first heard the glorious Gospel: that Yeshua came to save the world. When we first heard this, remember the joy that overcame us. Remember the Love that our Father graciously showed us, when He called us out, and His Son said to us "Follow me".

So we read the Scriptures and went to "church". We searched for more information about this wonderful Gospel, and before long, we are led into that serpent infested wilderness called Religion. One group proclaims that they have the truth, and all others are liars. The next group asserts the same. But there is one thing that all of these groups have in common: if you don't believe what they teach, you are in trouble of either an eternal torment in hell, or you will be annihilated.

There are some that believe most Catholics will go to hell. There are others that believe anyone who follows Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, Ellen White, ect., are all in trouble of either eternal torment in hell fire, or annihilation. This means that not only is God going to torture 75% of mankind because they are unbelievers, but He will also torture most of the Christians as well.

Is this really the Gospel? Is this really the Good News that Yeshua came to reveal to us? That God is "trying" as hard as He can to save as many as possible from a massive place of fire and torture for all of eternity. Did God created this place? Why?

"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?" Jeremiah 32:27

"And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son." Genesis 13:13

Does God have to "try" to do anything? Is He not above all things? Is the devil more powerful than God, so that he can drag more to hell than God can save?

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not." Numbers 11:23

"Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear" Isaiah 59:1

Who did Yeshua come to save? Was it the Righteous, or did He come to save sinners?

"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:17

If Messiah died for sinners, and we are all sinners, then who has Messiah died for? Who has His crucifixion saved?

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the SIN OF THE WORLD." John 1:29

When Yeshua chose the disciples, He makes it extremely clear to them that He did not choose them because of anything they had done. It wasn't their works that brought Grace to them, and it wasn't confessing that Messiah is Lord. They did nothing but fish and live their lives like everyone else; but when Yeshua called them, they immediately followed.

"Ye have NOT chosen me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." John 15:16

Paul confirms that this is to be understood among all believers:

"For BY GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God:
NOT of works, lest any man should BOAST.
For we are his WORKMANSHIP, CREATED in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8

"According as HE HATH CHOSEN US in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION of the WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL" Ephesians 1:4

Messiah has been given authority to choose whomsoever He wants. Who has Yeshua chosen?

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me." John 12:32

(The Greek word translated draw is helkuo; literally- drag)

Messiah has chosen ALL. This is the Gospel my friends. This is the Mystery that has been revealed to us. The Gospel is not a mystery any longer, because God has made known ALL things to us:

"Wherein he hath abounded toward us in ALL wisdom and prudence;
Having made KNOWN unto us the MYSTERY of HIS WILL, according to HIS good pleasure which HE hath purposed in himself:
That in the DISPENSATION OF THE FULNESS OF TIMES he might GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of HIM who worketh ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" Ephesians 1:8

I don't have much room left, so I will wait for your replies. I ask that we make this a group discussion rather than several separate conversations, so please read through all the replies to make sure your questions are not answered.

Thank you and God bless you
graceofgod
Posts: 5,049
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7/20/2015 12:58:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Jesus was with God from the beginning, God already knew his plan of redemption before the fall of man..
So our redemption was prepared at the very beginning of God's time before the world was formed...
This redemption is for all, the price for the sin of all has been paid, as the word says sin entered through one man, the price will be paid by one man..
Here I would like to skip to my favourite scripture John 3 :16
It was God's love for us that brought the necessity for a plan, the plan of redemption, God made the covenant, strong agreement with his son Jesus but Jesus is God, So God made the agreement with himself that the price for all sin will be paid by the perfect sacrifice, the perfect sacrifice that would fulfill the legal requirements God had set for man to be sin free and to be able to stand before God as righteous.
He made the covenant with himself because it was the only way it could be rock solid and fulfilled.
So the payment for all sin is there, the gift of righteousness with God is there, by his love or Grace, undeserved favour, so the gift is in place for all ...

Who can receive the gift, everyone but how??

Believe in the one who paid the Price, See Jesus as the one who made a away for you to accept the Grace, the undeserved favour..

What do you get, you get your sins bought and paid for, you become righteous in God's eyes because the perfect sacrifice makes you clean for all time..

you have eternal life come the return of Christ..
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/20/2015 11:04:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 12:58:29 PM, graceofgod wrote:

Hello graceofgod, thank you for replying. I look forward to discussing this with you.

Jesus was with God from the beginning, God already knew his plan of redemption before the fall of man..
So our redemption was prepared at the very beginning of God's time before the world was formed...
This redemption is for all, the price for the sin of all has been paid, as the word says sin entered through one man, the price will be paid by one man..
Here I would like to skip to my favourite scripture John 3 :16

I agree 100%. Therefore, God made mankind "knowing" that they would eat the Fruit of Knowledge. In fact, if everything is going according to His plan, He created us with every intention of giving us the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Would you agree?

Yeshua's sacrifice paid the price for all of mankind. We both agree with this. However, I think we disagree about what this means. Just as you said, sin entered through one man, and redemption was brought through one Man. What does the Scriptures say this means?

"For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22

If all died in Adam, does this mean everyone who has ever lived? If all shall be made alive in Messiah, does this not mean the same thing?

It was God's love for us that brought the necessity for a plan, the plan of redemption, God made the covenant, strong agreement with his son Jesus but Jesus is God, So God made the agreement with himself that the price for all sin will be paid by the perfect sacrifice, the perfect sacrifice that would fulfill the legal requirements God had set for man to be sin free and to be able to stand before God as righteous.
He made the covenant with himself because it was the only way it could be rock solid and fulfilled.

Did God need to sacrifice Messiah? Did God Himself not determine this very Rule?

"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matthew 9:13

"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?" Isaiah 1:11

"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:16

So the payment for all sin is there, the gift of righteousness with God is there, by his love or Grace, undeserved favour, so the gift is in place for all ...

Exactly.

Who can receive the gift, everyone but how?

I have to disagree that everyone can receive the Gift.

"But the natural man receiveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are FOOLISHNESS unto him: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

The carnal mind cannot accept the Gospel. They think it is foolishness. God has only chosen a few to receive His Spirit at this present age. How can the natural mind make itself become spiritual?

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is ENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Believe in the one who paid the Price, See Jesus as the one who made a away for you to accept the Grace, the undeserved gift.

I agree that we must believe Yeshua. We must confess and believe that He is Lord, because God has given Him that authority. We do this BECAUSE we receive Grace.

But what is Grace? Is it really a free Gift if we must do something to obtain it? Did any of us do anything to deserve His Grace? Or was we yet still sinners when He called us?

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were YET sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. But God is working on something amazing, and when the rest of the world knows out how much Love He's given, this prophecy shall be fulfilled:

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have SWORN by myself, the WORD is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me EVERY knee shall BOW, EVERY tongue shall SWEAR." Isaiah 45:22

I've heard it said that every knee will bow, even if God has to break their legs. That's rational I guess. But what about "every tongue shall swear"? What are they going to swear? They will swear to know the one True God, that is Father of all, and His Son Yeshua. In order to do this, they must receive God's Spirit:

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but BY THE Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:3

The only way one can confess that Yeshua is Lord is by the holy Spirit. We just saw that the Carnal mind cannot receive the things of the Spirit, so how can every tongue confess if they are still Carnal?

You see my friend, there is no difference between us and an unbeliever. The only reason we believe is because God has given us His Spirit. He decided before He ever made the world who would believe Him (not just believe in Him, but believe Him)

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL AND upon all them that believe: for there is NO DIFFERENCE: For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified FREELY by HIS grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:22

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, SPECIALLY of those that believe.
These things command and teach." 1 Timothy 4:9

There is no mistranslation here. Paul says that God is the Saviour of all, ESPECIALLY of those that believe. Not exclusively.

"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
GOD FORBID: yea, let God be true, but every man a LIAR; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Romans 3:3

It is God's Will that all men be saved. God always gets what He wants.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE ALL men to be saved, and to COME unto the knowledge of the TRUTH.
For there is ONE God, AND one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in DUE TIME." 1 Timothy 2:3

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is NONE else; I am God, and there is none LIKE ME,
DECLARING THE END from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are NOT YET DONE, saying, My counsel SHALL stand, and I WILL DO ALL my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass; I have PURPOSED it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:9

What do you get, you get your sins bought and paid for, you become righteous in God's eyes because the perfect sacrifice makes you clean for all time..

you have eternal life come the return of Christ..

But what is "eternal life" (Greek aionios zoe- literally: life concerning the age)?

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Remember:

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is GOOD." 1 Thessalonians 5:21

God bless you friend.
graceofgod
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7/21/2015 5:00:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hiya bless you..

I agree he knew it would happen but he had to give Adam and eve the choice to sin or not..

he did not make them sin..
AI believe many of the decisions and plans made are because God honours freedom of Choice, he did not create robots..

I believe adam and eve existed in the original Grace covenant, they would have done things wrong in essence, yet God perceived them as blameless and without sin, It wasn't untill they had the knowledge of good and evil that they realised they could and had separated themselves from God and felt dirty and sinful.

He had to send Jesus as he just, he set the rule in place and the rule had to be fulfilled, so Jesus came to pay the price that was required by the law to make us clean again once and for all, the rule couldn't just be cancelled as the rule was correct, we should be responsible for our own actions and choices, God made the perfect way through Jesus to make sure the payment was met and the law was put right with the payment made in full and yet we could still stand before God clean and blameless as we were originally with adam and eve..

I am not saying everyone gets the gift without acknowledging Jesus but the gift is there for all to receive, some will be so deep in sin they will never look up to see the gift is there all along..
dee-em
Posts: 6,447
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7/21/2015 5:12:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 12:14:43 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

I hope to discuss the purpose of mankind, the Sovereignty of God, and the Good News that has been revealed to us through Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ). Paul tells us there is one Gospel:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." Galatians 1:6

But how are we to be sure that the Gospel we know is not another? There is a gospel from the Catholics, another from the Protestants, and from within the Protestants there are possibly hundreds of differing gospels. There are Jehovah Witnesses, Latter-Day Saints, Messianic Jews, Amish, prosperity preachers, hell-fire preachers, and several nondenominational subgroups.

Don't be silly, Anon. Paul, like every other human, had no knowledge of the future. His concerns were contemporary, of course. The gospel he was referring to was from the Jerusalem faction (Peter etc.) who were trying to bring him into line with more orthodox Judaic-based belief. This was a political fight as much as a religious one, and he was trying to keep 'his' community faithful to his revolutionary gospel for the gentiles, something being resisted strenuously by the Jerusalem pillars.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/21/2015 12:21:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 5:00:27 AM, graceofgod wrote:
Hiya bless you..

Thank you my friend.

I'm going to try and address things very carefully. Please know that I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am fastidious. I pay very careful attention to words, because I believe a single word or phrase can bring an entire proposition into a completely different direction. And this causes contradictions.

"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." Titus 1:9

The Greek for convince is elegcho, and it means "to convict, refute", and the Greek for gainsayers is antilego, and it means "to speak against, to contradict". Therefore, if I see what I perceive to be a contradiction, I must refute it.

I agree he knew it would happen but he had to give Adam and eve the choice to sin or not..

I think I might need to define a few words. If you don't agree with my definitions, then please by all means refute them.

Choice- an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.

Will- a desire or intention

Free Will- the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

I'm not denying that we make choices or have a will. I'm denying that we have a "free" will. If God knows what we are going to do before we do it, it is impossible that we can choose any other option. There is no way to reconcile the two.

I've heard this example many times.

I put in front of my child a cake and cauliflower. I know the child will choose cake because they don't like cauliflower and cake is their favorite. The child chooses cake, so I knew the child's choice without acting upon their will.

This, to me, us nonsense. We cannot compare our limited mental capacity to the Most High by stating a scenario that would have been obvious for almost every child.

Suppose the child had a choice of cake or ice cream. Would we then know the future? Would the child even know what to choose? But I assure you, God knows all things. And if He knows we will do something, then to choose something else would make Him wrong, which is impossible.

God did not give Adam and Eve a free choice. He planted the Tree of Knowledge Himself, He created the Serpent to be exactly as he was, and He set up the entire scenario to bring about His plan. He said He was going to make man in His Image, this required the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and then He confirms Adam and Eve became like Him after they ate the Fruit. I will explain this in a separate post because it is very long.

he did not make them sin..

God works all things after the council of His own will. He did not "make" them sin as though He possessed their bodies to do it. But He did "Cause" them to sin because He is the Great Cause of all things. And Cause and Effect cannot be broken. Adam and Eve had no Knowledge of either Good or Evil. They didn't know that it was Evil to disobey and they didn't know that it was Good to obey. They only did what God wanted them to do.

AI believe many of the decisions and plans made are because God honours freedom of Choice, he did not create robots..

We are not robots my friend, we are pottery.

"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" Isaiah 29:16

Please read this carefully. I struggled with this passage for many years.

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there UNRIGHTEOUSNESS with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on WHOM I WILL have mercy, and I will have compassion on WHOM I WILL have compassion.
So then it is NOT of him that WILLETH, NOR of him that RUNNETH, but OF GOD that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same PURPOSE have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he WILL have mercy, and whom he WILL he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, WHY DOTH HE YET FIND FAULT? FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL?
Nay but, O man, WHO ARE THOU that repliest against God? Shall the thing FORMED say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the POTTER POWER OVER THE CLAY, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What (What is italicized in the KJV, which means this is not in the original Greek. Do you see how one word makes this a hypothetical question rather than a sure assertion?)
IF God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory," Romans 9:13

I have many, many Scriptures that say God directs our steps and has Determined all things. I will likewise send these to you in a separate post. I only believe the Scriptures my friend.

I believe adam and eve existed in the original Grace covenant, they would have done things wrong in essence, yet God perceived them as blameless and without sin, It wasn't untill they had the knowledge of good and evil that they realised they could and had separated themselves from God and felt dirty and sinful.

I believe Adam and Eve existed under no Covenant, and if they were under a Covenant, they had no Knowledge to understand the Covenant's terms.

He had to send Jesus as he just, he set the rule in place and the rule had to be fulfilled, so Jesus came to pay the price that was required by the law to make us clean again once and for all, the rule couldn't just be cancelled as the rule was correct, we should be responsible for our own actions and choices, God made the perfect way through Jesus to make sure the payment was met and the law was put right with the payment made in full and yet we could still stand before God clean and blameless as we were originally with adam and eve..

I have to ask you some hard questions.

How can we be responsible for our actions and choices? Nobody asked to be born. Had someone come to me before I was born and given me a choice: either be annihilated now, or go to Earth for the opportunity to either gain eternal life or eternal hell (and eternal hell is more likely to be my choice), I would have asked to be annihilated right then. Why would God eternally torment a man that sinned for a mere 60 to 70 years? Actually, the person couldn't even make a rational decision before they were about 20, so that is more like 40 to 50 years of sinning. Eternity is a trillion times a trillion times a trillion ect... years, and that isn't even a millisecond in comparison to forever. Is this really Just? Listen to your heart my friend. The Scriptures are True and I believe everything they teach, but if something appears to teach that our God of Love will torment someone forever in scolding fire, should we not try to understand if there is something spiritual He is telling us?

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

Paul tells us to compare Spiritual to Spiritual. Saying that the Lake of Fire is a literal body of water made of fire(?) is comparing Spiritual to Carnal. The Carnal mind hates God. This Lake of Fire is something far greater than a massive torture chamber.

I am not saying everyone gets the gift without acknowledging Jesus but the gift is there for all to receive, some will be so deep in sin they will never look up to see the gift is there all along..

I'm almost out of room. Thank you my friend.
anonymouswho
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7/21/2015 12:26:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 5:12:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/20/2015 12:14:43 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

I hope to discuss the purpose of mankind, the Sovereignty of God, and the Good News that has been revealed to us through Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ). Paul tells us there is one Gospel:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." Galatians 1:6

But how are we to be sure that the Gospel we know is not another? There is a gospel from the Catholics, another from the Protestants, and from within the Protestants there are possibly hundreds of differing gospels. There are Jehovah Witnesses, Latter-Day Saints, Messianic Jews, Amish, prosperity preachers, hell-fire preachers, and several nondenominational subgroups.

Don't be silly, Anon. Paul, like every other human, had no knowledge of the future. His concerns were contemporary, of course. The gospel he was referring to was from the Jerusalem faction (Peter etc.) who were trying to bring him into line with more orthodox Judaic-based belief. This was a political fight as much as a religious one, and he was trying to keep 'his' community faithful to his revolutionary gospel for the gentiles, something being resisted strenuously by the Jerusalem pillars.

As far as I know, every verifiable letter from Paul is contained in the Epistles. So please my friend, where is your evidence that any of this is true? You can use Acts or any of Pauls letters. Or are you making an assertion and accusation against Paul that you have no evidence for? Thank you my friend.
RightWinged
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7/21/2015 1:58:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
But how are we to be sure that the Gospel we know is not another? There is a gospel from the Catholics, another from the Protestants, and from within the Protestants there are possibly hundreds of differing gospels. There are Jehovah Witnesses, Latter-Day Saints, Messianic Jews, Amish, prosperity preachers, hell-fire preachers, and several nondenominational subgroups.
You can't truly know, the only thing that you can do is study the scripture and ask for guidance from our Heavenly Father. If the teachings of one particular sect is not the teachings of the Bible, then you know that they are not the truth. That means even if they seemingly get one thing wrong.

How can anyone be sure that what they believe is the correct Gospel?
No one can be 100% sure, but basic studying of the scripture can lead you away from some sects and lead you in the direction of others. The problem is that people seem to be willing to blindly accept a faith because they were born in it. Or because their family is apart of it.

Is this really the Gospel? Is this really the Good News that Yeshua came to reveal to us? That God is "trying" as hard as He can to save as many as possible from a massive place of fire and torture for all of eternity. Did God created this place? Why?
You have to understand that we are responsible for sharing the good news of the Kingdom. Matthew 28:19 reads:
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," (NIV)

Does God have to "try" to do anything? Is He not above all things? Is the devil more powerful than God, so that he can drag more to hell than God can save?
Second Corinthians 4:4 reads:
"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (NIV)

Who is the "god of this age"? It is is none other than Satan the Devil. He is the principal promoter of false worship.

Second Corinthians 11:14, 15 reads:
"[14] And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. [15] It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." (NIV)

Who did Yeshua come to save? Was it the Righteous, or did He come to save sinners?
Why not both? After all, Romans 6:7 reads:
"because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." (NIV)

If Messiah died for sinners, and we are all sinners, then who has Messiah died for? Who has His crucifixion saved?
His execution saved us all. Consider Romans 3:23, 24:
"[23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (NIV)

So we read the Scriptures and went to "church". We searched for more information about this wonderful Gospel, and before long, we are led into that serpent infested wilderness called Religion.

I would just like to add that "Religion is a snare and a racket."
God bless.
Skyangel
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7/21/2015 6:10:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 12:14:43 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

I hope to discuss the purpose of mankind, the Sovereignty of God, and the Good News that has been revealed to us through Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ). Paul tells us there is one Gospel:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." Galatians 1:6

But how are we to be sure that the Gospel we know is not another? .......etc

How can anyone be sure that what they believe is the correct Gospel?

What exactly is the Gospel?
http://www.merriam-webster.com...
The word Gospel comes from the Old English godspel , from god meaning good + spell meaning tale. It is basically a good story, a good tale or often translated as good news.
It is also something accepted or promoted as infallible truth or as a guiding principle or doctrine .. eg "took her words as gospel".
What is Truth? Is Truth a man or a supernatural being that desires worship or is it a simple concept of honesty, being true to yourself and others, being real rather than pretending to be something you are not?

Is it about believing in an invisible supernatural character or about believing what is true?
Does a belief in a supernatural character save anyone from anything? If so what does it save people from?
Does a belief in Truth save anyone from anything? I say Yes it does. Only Truth can set people free from lies, self deceptions, false doctrines, and anything that leads people astray.
However, It will only set people free from their self deceptions if they admit they are deceiving themselves. If they refuse to admit it, they will remain self deceived as a result of rejecting the truth that they are self deceived in the first place.

Truth is like a fire which will burn up all the dross and purify the gold in the minds of those who believe and embrace the truth. Those who don't want to embrace it will always despise and reject it as they desperately hold on to their fictions and fantasies of some supernatural character saving them from something. Yet they have no clue what that character is supposed to be saving them from. Themselves? Some fictional location called hell where unbelievers in supernatural characters are tortured for their unbelief for all eternity?

It seems to me that those who believe in the supernatural characters have the most fear of letting go of their belief in case they end up being tortured in hell for becoming an unbeliever. Their belief in the supernatural characters binds them to those characters out of fear of what will happen if they reject the character as superstitious nonsense.

The truth within them tells them all supernatural characters and gods are no more real than Santa or Mother Nature but the self deception within them makes them hold on to their childish beliefs in the characters just in case they might be wrong. Their childish immaturity and fear of hell stops them from grow in the grace and knowledge of God as a personification of Truth itself. They end up following a false truth ( False Christ) due to following an invisible man instead of following a principle.

Truth is not an invisible man who humans are supposed to idolize. Truth is a principle of honesty in which humans are supposed to live as they put aside childish things like the idolatry of invisible mythical characters.
Truth saves you from fictions.
Reality saves you from fantasy.
The problem is most love their fantasy and fiction more than Truth and reality. That is why they remain self deceived invisible character idolaters.
Skyangel
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7/21/2015 6:46:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 12:21:36 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/21/2015 5:00:27 AM, graceofgod wrote:

Suppose the child had a choice of cake or ice cream. Would we then know the future? Would the child even know what to choose? But I assure you, God knows all things. And if He knows we will do something, then to choose something else would make Him wrong, which is impossible.

If you compare the story of the Tree of knowledge to cake and ice cream it would like putting an icecream cake in front of a child and telling them not to eat it because if they do it will make them fat. Does the child care if he becomes fat or not? The child does not care about the consequences. He only cares about gaining what looks good at the time and if the consequence of eating it makes him fat, then the consequence is a risk he is willing to take to gain what he wants.

God did not give Adam and Eve a free choice. He planted the Tree of Knowledge Himself, He created the Serpent to be exactly as he was, and He set up the entire scenario to bring about His plan. He said He was going to make man in His Image, this required the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and then He confirms Adam and Eve became like Him after they ate the Fruit. I will explain this in a separate post because it is very long.

he did not make them sin..

What is sin? You better define that word. Gaining knowledge is not an act of doing something wrong. Who or what does it violate if humans gain knowledge? Gaining knowledge does not result in physical death on the same day you gain it either.
dee-em
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7/21/2015 7:59:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 12:26:14 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/21/2015 5:12:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/20/2015 12:14:43 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

I hope to discuss the purpose of mankind, the Sovereignty of God, and the Good News that has been revealed to us through Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ). Paul tells us there is one Gospel:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." Galatians 1:6

But how are we to be sure that the Gospel we know is not another? There is a gospel from the Catholics, another from the Protestants, and from within the Protestants there are possibly hundreds of differing gospels. There are Jehovah Witnesses, Latter-Day Saints, Messianic Jews, Amish, prosperity preachers, hell-fire preachers, and several nondenominational subgroups.

Don't be silly, Anon. Paul, like every other human, had no knowledge of the future. His concerns were contemporary, of course. The gospel he was referring to was from the Jerusalem faction (Peter etc.) who were trying to bring him into line with more orthodox Judaic-based belief. This was a political fight as much as a religious one, and he was trying to keep 'his' community faithful to his revolutionary gospel for the gentiles, something being resisted strenuously by the Jerusalem pillars.

As far as I know, every verifiable letter from Paul is contained in the Epistles. So please my friend, where is your evidence that any of this is true? You can use Acts or any of Pauls letters. Or are you making an assertion and accusation against Paul that you have no evidence for? Thank you my friend.

Anon, all you have to do is keep reading Galatians but with your eyes open. There was a power struggle going on between Paul and the Jerusalem faction of Cephas (Peter), James etc. Specifically, the fight was on whether the community should follow Jewish customs such as circumcision or not. Here are some key verses which illustrate this fierce battle for the hearts and minds of the Galatians.

Galatians 2

6 As for those who were held in high esteem"whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism"they added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,[a] just as Peter had been to the circumcised.[b] 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas[c] and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

Paul making his case that he is the apostle to the gentiles and the Jerusalem faction should stick with the Jews and mind their own business.

11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?


Paul accusing Cephas (Peter) of hypocrisy.

Galatians 4

17 Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may have zeal for them. 18 It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always, not just when I am with you. 19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20 how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!

Another oblique reference to the Jerusalem faction.

Galatians 5

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

The Jerusalem apostles were trying to convince the Galatians that they had to be circumcised and Paul wasn't impressed.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Paul shows his barely disguised contempt for the Jerusalem pillars. The one is Cephas (Peter), of course.

Galatians 6

12 Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.

A summary of the purpose of this epistle.
anonymouswho
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7/21/2015 8:05:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 1:58:49 PM, RightWinged wrote:

Hello RightWinged, it is good to meet you. I look forward to discussing the glorious Gospel with you.

But how are we to be sure that the Gospel we know is not another? There is a gospel from the Catholics, another from the Protestants, and from within the Protestants there are possibly hundreds of differing gospels. There are Jehovah Witnesses, Latter-Day Saints, Messianic Jews, Amish, prosperity preachers, hell-fire preachers, and several nondenominational subgroups.
You can't truly know, the only thing that you can do is study the scripture and ask for guidance from our Heavenly Father. If the teachings of one particular sect is not the teachings of the Bible, then you know that they are not the truth. That means even if they seemingly get one thing wrong.

Tell me my friend, what happens to those that get it "seemingly" wrong? Say they believe in the trinity, or annihilation, or free will? Say they are Baptist, Pentacostal, Jehovah Witness, Morman, or Catholic. What if we believe one prophet over another? Should I believe Charles Russell or Joseph Smith? I believe every person that has ever lived will be gathered together as one in Messiah.

How can anyone be sure that what they believe is the correct Gospel?
No one can be 100% sure, but basic studying of the scripture can lead you away from some sects and lead you in the direction of others. The problem is that people seem to be willing to blindly accept a faith because they were born in it. Or because their family is apart of it.

No one can be 100% sure of anything, however....

"...I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38

Is this really the Gospel? Is this really the Good News that Yeshua came to reveal to us? That God is "trying" as hard as He can to save as many as possible from a massive place of fire and torture for all of eternity. Did God created this place? Why?
You have to understand that we are responsible for sharing the good news of the Kingdom. Matthew 28:19 reads:
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," (NIV)

I understand, that is why I'm here. But again, what is the Good News? Is it that God is saving a few people from an eternal torture chamber? Is it that God is saving a few people from death? Or is death being destroyed and all will live again?

Does God have to "try" to do anything? Is He not above all things? Is the devil more powerful than God, so that he can drag more to hell than God can save?
Second Corinthians 4:4 reads:
"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (NIV)

Who is the "god of this age"? It is is none other than Satan the Devil. He is the principal promoter of false worship.

Second Corinthians 11:14, 15 reads:
"[14] And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. [15] It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." (NIV)

Who do you believe the Devil is? Do you believe he is "Lucifer the fallen angel that gave mankind knowledge" or is he God's Devil, that God uses to destroy the fleshy carnal mind? Will Satan bring more to hell or annihilation than God is able to save?

Who did Yeshua come to save? Was it the Righteous, or did He come to save sinners?
Why not both? After all, Romans 6:7 reads:
"because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." (NIV)

Exactly.

If Messiah died for sinners, and we are all sinners, then who has Messiah died for? Who has His crucifixion saved?
His execution saved us all. Consider Romans 3:23, 24:
"[23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (NIV)

Again, I agree completely.

So we read the Scriptures and went to "church". We searched for more information about this wonderful Gospel, and before long, we are led into that serpent infested wilderness called Religion.

I would just like to add that "Religion is a snare and a racket."
God bless.

And finally, I agree.

Honestly, I'd really like to know a little bit more about what you believe concerning the Gospel. Is it eternal hell, annihilation, eternal seperation, or the Universal Reconciliation of all things?

Thank you my friend and God bless you.
anonymouswho
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7/21/2015 11:51:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 7:59:13 PM, dee-em wrote:

Anon, all you have to do is keep reading Galatians but with your eyes open. There was a power struggle going on between Paul and the Jerusalem faction of Cephas (Peter), James etc.

My friend, all you have to do is read the Scriptures with your eyes opened just a little bit wider. This passage is not about a power struggle. There are a few things you have to learn before trying to understand Paul. First, Peter fully accepted Paul, and he even says that we are to hold to Paul's words:

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our BELOVED BROTHER PAUL also according to the WISDOM GIVEN UNTO HIM hath written unto you;
As also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD, which they that are UNLEARNED and UNSTABLE WREST, as they do also the OTHER SCRIPTURES, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things BEFORE, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." 2 Peter 3:15

Galatians 2

On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,[a] just as Peter had been to the circumcised.[b] 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas[c] and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

Paul making his case that he is the apostle to the gentiles and the Jerusalem faction should stick with the Jews and mind their own business.

He did not say they should stick to their own business. They made an agreement that Paul was to go one way and they were to go another. They all preached the same Gospel.

11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Paul accusing Cephas (Peter) of hypocrisy.

Yes, and rightly so.

The second thing you have to know is the difference between common (Greek koinos) and unclean (Greek akathartos). The Law states that there are certain things that are unclean, but never does it describe anything being common. The Jews had went so far as to say that sitting with an unclean Gentile would make them common. This was in total violation of the Law, which states the Jews are to be a Light to the Gentiles.

"I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;" Isaiah 42:6

Thus Yeshua was correct when He said

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." Mark 7:13

Paul did not call out Peter for teaching circumcision or the Law. He called Peter out because he wouldn't sit with the Gentiles to eat when the Jews came in. Peter was being a hypocrite and desired man's approval rather than God's. This has nothing to do with Peter being a false teacher.

Galatians 4

17 Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may have zeal for them. 18 It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always, not just when I am with you. 19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20 how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!

Another oblique reference to the Jerusalem faction.

Yes, this is Chapter 4 now. Paul finished talking about Peter two chapters ago. This is about the Jerusalem Council, but it has nothing to do with Peter.

Galatians 5

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

The Jerusalem apostles were trying to convince the Galatians that they had to be circumcised and Paul wasn't impressed.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Paul shows his barely disguised contempt for the Jerusalem pillars. The one is Cephas (Peter), of course.

No, Paul says nothing about Peter here. You are four chapter ahead of the passage about Peter. In fact, Paul asks "Who?", which means he doesn't know who is teaching these customs and traditions, but they need to stop.

Paul did speak out against the Jewish customs and traditions, but never against the Law. Circumcision was not part of the Law for Gentiles. It was a Covenant made under Abraham and his descendents. However, to be brought into Judaism, a Gentile was required to get circumcised. But Paul and the other Apostles were not trying to convert Gentiles to Judaism. They were teaching the Gentiles about the One True God.

Paul also says James is a pillar. James was the one that made the decision that the Gentiles did not need to be circumcised. This can be seen in Acts 15, where the debate over circumcision was discussed. This was only about circumcision and nothing else:

"And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me" Acts 15:15

Notice in your quote that Paul says they should emasculate themselves. That was what made the final decision at the Jerusalem Council. And it was Peter that stated it first:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10

This is not talking about the Law being a burden. John tells us in his Epistle that the Law is not burdensome. It was circumcision that was burdensome. These were grown men who were chosen to follow the Gospel, and they were being told they had to have their pens sliced open. That's not something they were looking forward to, so they made the decision that circumcision was not required for the Gentiles.

Galatians 6

12 Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ.

A summary of the purpose of this epistle.

Yes, Paul is speaking of circumcision. Peter had nothing to do with this passage. Paul even says

"After that, he was seen of JAMES; then of ALL the apostles.
And LAST of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
For I am the LEAST OF THE APOSTLES, that am NOT MEET TO BE CALLED AN APOSTLE, because I persecuted the church of God." 1 Corinthians 15:7

Thank you my friend.
anonymouswho
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7/22/2015 12:13:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 6:10:58 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/20/2015 12:14:43 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

I hope to discuss the purpose of mankind, the Sovereignty of God, and the Good News that has been revealed to us through Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ). Paul tells us there is one Gospel:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." Galatians 1:6

But how are we to be sure that the Gospel we know is not another? .......etc


How can anyone be sure that what they believe is the correct Gospel?

What exactly is the Gospel?
http://www.merriam-webster.com...
The word Gospel comes from the Old English godspel , from god meaning good + spell meaning tale. It is basically a good story, a good tale or often translated as good news.
It is also something accepted or promoted as infallible truth or as a guiding principle or doctrine .. eg "took her words as gospel".
What is Truth? Is Truth a man or a supernatural being that desires worship or is it a simple concept of honesty, being true to yourself and others, being real rather than pretending to be something you are not?

Is it about believing in an invisible supernatural character or about believing what is true?
Does a belief in a supernatural character save anyone from anything? If so what does it save people from?
Does a belief in Truth save anyone from anything? I say Yes it does. Only Truth can set people free from lies, self deceptions, false doctrines, and anything that leads people astray.
However, It will only set people free from their self deceptions if they admit they are deceiving themselves. If they refuse to admit it, they will remain self deceived as a result of rejecting the truth that they are self deceived in the first place.

Truth is like a fire which will burn up all the dross and purify the gold in the minds of those who believe and embrace the truth. Those who don't want to embrace it will always despise and reject it as they desperately hold on to their fictions and fantasies of some supernatural character saving them from something. Yet they have no clue what that character is supposed to be saving them from. Themselves? Some fictional location called hell where unbelievers in supernatural characters are tortured for their unbelief for all eternity?

It seems to me that those who believe in the supernatural characters have the most fear of letting go of their belief in case they end up being tortured in hell for becoming an unbeliever. Their belief in the supernatural characters binds them to those characters out of fear of what will happen if they reject the character as superstitious nonsense.

The truth within them tells them all supernatural characters and gods are no more real than Santa or Mother Nature but the self deception within them makes them hold on to their childish beliefs in the characters just in case they might be wrong. Their childish immaturity and fear of hell stops them from grow in the grace and knowledge of God as a personification of Truth itself. They end up following a false truth ( False Christ) due to following an invisible man instead of following a principle.

Truth is not an invisible man who humans are supposed to idolize. Truth is a principle of honesty in which humans are supposed to live as they put aside childish things like the idolatry of invisible mythical characters.
Truth saves you from fictions.
Reality saves you from fantasy.
The problem is most love their fantasy and fiction more than Truth and reality. That is why they remain self deceived invisible character idolaters.

Honestly, I agree with a lot more of this than you might think Skyangel. But I do believe in that invisible supernatural GOD. I am panentheist, so I believe all is of God, but not all IS God. You know, the Kingdom of God could really use someone like you. You're smart, and you are very firm and vocal about your beliefs. Please friend, read what is written and see for yourself if the Scriptures teach something very different than we've been told. God is Love, and the Scriptures told us about Him many, many years ago. But the carnal mind of men have refused to believe, so they make up whatever is pleasing to their ears. Is eternal torment pleasing to their ears? No, but it gives them self righteousness, and the ego is stronger than the heart. There is no hell and there is no annihilation.

Yeshua had just finished feeding the multitudes, when he delivers a riddle to the disciples. The disciples still had no clue about half of the things Yeshua was talking about, but He chose them, so they had to follow.

"And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, TWELVE.
And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, SEVEN.
And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?" Mark 8:17

John gives us the answer to this riddle when he writes of the feeding:

"When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the FRAGMENTS that remain, that NOTHING BE LOST." John 6:12

Do you understand Skyangel? What about these verses?

"The Father loveth the Son, and hath GIVEN ALL things into his hand." John 3:35

"And this is the Father's WILL which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath GIVEN me I should LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39

Thank you Skyangel, and God bless you.
Skyangel
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7/22/2015 1:08:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 12:13:34 AM, anonymouswho wrote:

Honestly, I agree with a lot more of this than you might think Skyangel. But I do believe in that invisible supernatural GOD. I am panentheist, so I believe all is of God, but not all IS God. You know, the Kingdom of God could really use someone like you. You're smart, and you are very firm and vocal about your beliefs. Please friend, read what is written and see for yourself if the Scriptures teach something very different than we've been told. God is Love, and the Scriptures told us about Him many, many years ago. But the carnal mind of men have refused to believe, so they make up whatever is pleasing to their ears. Is eternal torment pleasing to their ears? No, but it gives them self righteousness, and the ego is stronger than the heart. There is no hell and there is no annihilation.

All invisible supernatural gods are as fictional as any mythical Greek gods. All are personifications of the powers that be.
I have read the scriptures many times in my life. I was involved in religion for over 40 years.
The scriptures say God is Love but any logical thinking people understand Love is not a supernatural person but an attitude in which normal people live.
Living in that attitude of Love is living in God. Personifying Love does not make Love a person any more than personifying Nature as Mother Nature makes the character real.

The carnal mind is the immature mind according to scripture. See 1Cor 3:1-4. Think about how Christians today are as carnal and immature as those Corinthians were. One says "I am Baptist" or "I am Pentecostal" or "I am Presbyterian"... etc etc .They argue amongst themselves about their doctrines and they are as childish and immature as a child who believes in Santa and argues with other children about whether he exists at the North Pole or not and if he is coming again in his magic sleigh.

The carnal mind is the childish way of thinking which has not grown in grace and knowledge of God but still considers God to be a supernatural character in the same way a child perceives Santa to be a magical man rather than a personification of a principle.
I agree there is no supernatural location called hell and there is also no supernatural location called heaven. Both those things refer to a state of mind. One is a state of inner peace and the other is a state of inner turmoil.

Scripture encourages people to grow up in their understanding and not to remain children who are tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
1 Cor 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
Eph 4:14-15 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

With all the love I can muster up in me, I am telling Christians that as long as they continue in the attitudes that their particular Christians sect is right and others are wrong, they are all as carnal minded as the Corinthians were. They are babes in Christ and need to grow up and realize that Christ is not a man, not a natural man and not a supernatural invisible man but Christ is simply a personification of TRUTH itself. Living in TRUTH is living in Christ and it is the same as Living in God.
God, Christ, Jesus, are all just characterizations of different aspects of TRUTH and LIFE and the WAY to live in them. The lesson taught by scripture is to live a WAY of LIFE in TRUTH and face reality. Do not worship idols, not visible ones and not invisible ones. Do not worship any man as God because God is not a man of any kind. God is a Principle. God is a Power, a Force, an attitude in which people can choose to live or not.
Christians need to grow up and put aside childish things like the immature mindset that Christ is a supernatural man and demands worship. Love does not need to be worshiped like an idol is worshiped with religious rituals. To live in Love is all you need to do to honor and respect the principle. No religious rituals are necessary.

The carnal minded ego is not easy to overcome but if you wish to grow in grace and knowledge of God you need to come to the mature understanding that all gods are mythical and are nothing more than personifications of the principles of Life which exist in reality.
Maturity sets people free from immaturity.
Truth sets people free from self deceptions and false doctrines.
Immature people take time to grow up and put aside childish things including childish thinking but all who wish to grow in the knowledge of God need to grow up and understand all gods are an anthropomorphism of the powers that be.
Skyangel
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7/22/2015 1:57:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 12:13:34 AM, anonymouswho wrote:

Yeshua had just finished feeding the multitudes, when he delivers a riddle to the disciples. The disciples still had no clue about half of the things Yeshua was talking about, but He chose them, so they had to follow.

"And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, TWELVE.
And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, SEVEN.
And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?" Mark 8:17

John gives us the answer to this riddle when he writes of the feeding:

"When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the FRAGMENTS that remain, that NOTHING BE LOST." John 6:12

Do you understand Skyangel?

I understand a lot more than most do. I have the mind of Christ ( 1 Cor 2:16)
I encourage you to put on the same mind too. ( Phil 2:5)

Unleavened bread in the bible represents truth and sincerity. 1 Cor 5:8 ..... but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Leavened bread represents doctrines. Matt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

The "bread" of Religions is like the leavened bread of the Pharisees and Saducees. It is preached as truth as they cherry pick what suits their doctrines from scripture and reject the rest as they place it in the basket of scriptures which don't fit their taste or don't fit their doctrines. They basically turn the truth ( unleavened bread) into a lie ( leavened bread ) by adding their "yeast" to it. Leaven or yeast is metaphoric of habitual mental and moral corruption, viewed in its tendency to infect others.
False doctrines corrupt people and lead them astray. It is a sad thing when those doctrines keep people bound in the worship of invisible idols and mentally stagnating as immature children rather than growing up mentally to have a mature mentality and state of mind which has put aside childish idolatry.

What about these verses?
"The Father loveth the Son, and hath GIVEN ALL things into his hand." John 3:35

"And this is the Father's WILL which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath GIVEN me I should LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39


The Father of LIFE is LIFE.
The Father of TRUTH is TRUTH.
The Father of LOVE is LOVE.
The "Father" is the mature process, principle, power, force, etc . The "Son" is the immature offspring which has been reproduced in the image of the mature.
When talking about attitudes ( spirits) the principle is that Love can only reproduce Love.
The "only begotten Son" ( only offspring) of Love is Love.
Love is not a man but is a spirit, an attitude within mankind. Love is not one man or many men but is ONE SPIRIT in which people can choose to live or not.
Replace the word Love with the word TRUTH and the same principle applies.

It is the WAY of LIFE in TRUTH which has compelled me to speak in LOVE and share the TRUTH which may offend all immature people who still think with their carnal mind and live in the way of the flesh which is led by the carnal nature.
TRUTH LOSES NOTHING at any time. It is people who reject the Truth which lose out on it and end up lost in fantasies where they worship invisible supernatural idols instead of putting on a mature mindset and understanding God is an attitude, a principle, a WAY of LIFE in TRUTH. It is not an invisible supernatural man.

The "last day" and the "first day" are the same "day" in God ( the principle of eternity ) which is never confined to TIME but is infinite. It ( personified as "He") IS the first and last, the beginning and end at all times. It or "He" is always with all LIFE in the ever present "NOW" which is constantly going and coming again instantaneously faster than anyone can measure it.
TRUTH is always with you and will never leave or forsake you at any time. Humans can forsake Truth and Love but Truth and Love cannot forsake humans. It is always present regardless of whether humans can sense it and recognize it or not.
Nothing is ever lost in reality. Reality ( the TRUTH) simply recycles itself constantly. It is Energy which cannot be created or destroyed.
dee-em
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7/22/2015 3:32:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 11:51:27 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

Anon, I can see that the blinkers are well and truly on. It's always amazing to me when theists cannot understand their own holy texts. The whole of Galatians is Paul telling them to ignore the clowns in Jerusalem and to listen to him that Jewish customs are unnecessary. This is self-evident.

You dont go quoting Acts (another author later trying vainly to harmonize Paul with the Jerusalem pillars) and you don't go quoting epistles to other communities written for a different purpose. You just have to read Galatians from start to finish and the conflict between Paul (the self-appointed apostle) and the others in Jerusalem leaps out at you. He even goes as far as stating that those Jerusalem should go one step further than circumcision and cut their penises off completely. He despises them. This is so obvious that I'm not going to argue this further. Carry on.
annanicole
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7/22/2015 7:55:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 3:32:18 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/21/2015 11:51:27 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

Anon, I can see that the blinkers are well and truly on. It's always amazing to me when theists cannot understand their own holy texts. The whole of Galatians is Paul telling them to ignore the clowns in Jerusalem and to listen to him that Jewish customs are unnecessary. This is self-evident.

It must be, for there is no such language in Galatians.

You dont go quoting Acts (another author later trying vainly to harmonize Paul with the Jerusalem pillars) and you don't go quoting epistles to other communities written for a different purpose. You just have to read Galatians from start to finish and the conflict between Paul (the self-appointed apostle)

Paul makes no claim to having been "self-appointed."

and the others in Jerusalem leaps out at you. He even goes as far as stating that those Jerusalem should go one step further than circumcision and cut their penises off completely. He despises them.

Nor does Paul come close to stating that he despises the other apostles.

This is so obvious that I'm not going to argue this further.

Well, I might not agree with the means ("This is so obvious"), but I concur with the ends.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
dee-em
Posts: 6,447
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7/22/2015 8:21:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 7:55:41 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/22/2015 3:32:18 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/21/2015 11:51:27 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

Anon, I can see that the blinkers are well and truly on. It's always amazing to me when theists cannot understand their own holy texts. The whole of Galatians is Paul telling them to ignore the clowns in Jerusalem and to listen to him that Jewish customs are unnecessary. This is self-evident.

It must be, for there is no such language in Galatians.

No, only the entire epistle. Lol.

You dont go quoting Acts (another author later trying vainly to harmonize Paul with the Jerusalem pillars) and you don't go quoting epistles to other communities written for a different purpose. You just have to read Galatians from start to finish and the conflict between Paul (the self-appointed apostle)

Paul makes no claim to having been "self-appointed."

Not in those words. Nevertheless he appointed himself as an apostle. Stop splitting hairs.

and the others in Jerusalem leaps out at you. He even goes as far as stating that those Jerusalem should go one step further than circumcision and cut their penises off completely. He despises them.

Nor does Paul come close to stating that he despises the other apostles.

He probably did but the later redacters and interpolators sanitized it. Again, nevertheless, his utter disdain for them comes through. You don't wish emasculation on your friends. Lol.

This is so obvious that I'm not going to argue this further.

Well, I might not agree with the means ("This is so obvious"), but I concur with the ends.

Anna, I expect nothing but nit-picking from you. You can't address the substance of my post, so you snipe. As ever, the only way you know is to attack trivia and play word games with meanings. I'm not really interested.
annanicole
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7/22/2015 8:31:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:21:47 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/22/2015 7:55:41 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/22/2015 3:32:18 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/21/2015 11:51:27 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

Anon, I can see that the blinkers are well and truly on. It's always amazing to me when theists cannot understand their own holy texts. The whole of Galatians is Paul telling them to ignore the clowns in Jerusalem and to listen to him that Jewish customs are unnecessary. This is self-evident.

It must be, for there is no such language in Galatians.

No, only the entire epistle. Lol.

You dont go quoting Acts (another author later trying vainly to harmonize Paul with the Jerusalem pillars) and you don't go quoting epistles to other communities written for a different purpose. You just have to read Galatians from start to finish and the conflict between Paul (the self-appointed apostle)

Paul makes no claim to having been "self-appointed."

Not in those words. Nevertheless he appointed himself as an apostle. Stop splitting hairs.

and the others in Jerusalem leaps out at you. He even goes as far as stating that those Jerusalem should go one step further than circumcision and cut their penises off completely. He despises them.

Nor does Paul come close to stating that he despises the other apostles.

He probably did but the later redacters and interpolators sanitized it. Again, nevertheless, his utter disdain for them comes through. You don't wish emasculation on your friends. Lol.

This is so obvious that I'm not going to argue this further.

Well, I might not agree with the means ("This is so obvious"), but I concur with the ends.

Anna, I expect nothing but nit-picking from you. You can't address the substance of my post, so you snipe. As ever, the only way you know is to attack trivia and play word games with meanings. I'm not really interested.

But word games are all you play, dude. Observe:

(1) "Theists cannot understand their own holy texts"

The natural conclusion would be that Christians do not "understand" the import of Galatians, but ... ummm .... YOU do!

(2) "Paul (the self-appointed apostle)"

There exists not a single statement in the entire NT to that effect. You sorta played a word game and added it.

(3) "He even goes as far as stating that those Jerusalem should go one step further than circumcision and cut their penises off completely."

No, Paul never said that, either.

(4) "He probably did but the later redacters and interpolators sanitized it."

So now folks came along at a much later date and kinda "cleaned up" the harsh language that you've concluded that Paul "probably" used originally.

(5) "He despises them."

Never stated. Never implied. You added it as a word game.

(6) "the only way you know is to attack trivia"

I'm guilty as charged on that one. I attacked a trivial post.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/22/2015 9:10:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 3:32:18 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/21/2015 11:51:27 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

Anon, I can see that the blinkers are well and truly on. It's always amazing to me when theists cannot understand their own holy texts. The whole of Galatians is Paul telling them to ignore the clowns in Jerusalem and to listen to him that Jewish customs are unnecessary. This is self-evident.

You dont go quoting Acts (another author later trying vainly to harmonize Paul with the Jerusalem pillars) and you don't go quoting epistles to other communities written for a different purpose. You just have to read Galatians from start to finish and the conflict between Paul (the self-appointed apostle) and the others in Jerusalem leaps out at you. He even goes as far as stating that those Jerusalem should go one step further than circumcision and cut their penises off completely. He despises them. This is so obvious that I'm not going to argue this further. Carry on.

Well, thank you dee-em. I have read Galatians from start to finish several times. Paul was a Hebrew, so He believed the Scriptures. The Jews had added many customs and traditions to God's Word, such as refusal to sit with Gentiles. These customs are contained in the Talmud, not Torah. These are the things that Paul speaks against. Peter knew that these customs were wrong, but he chose to follow them when he was peer pressured by his fellow Hebrews. This is what Paul calls him out on. It has nothing to do with circumcision or the Law. Paul does not say Peter should castrate himself, he says those that wish for the Gentiles to be circumcised should. Peter and James both agreed that this was not necessary. You're talking about two different groups of people, and claiming that Paul condemns them both for the same reasons. This is incorrect.

I always enjoy a good conversation about Galatians. It is one of the most misunderstood Epistles in Scripture. Here's a great commentary to explain what Paul is actually talking about:

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net...

Thank you my friend.
anonymouswho
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7/22/2015 9:21:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 7:55:41 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/22/2015 3:32:18 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/21/2015 11:51:27 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

Hello annanicole, thanks for joining the conversation. What do you think of this Gospel? Is this not the Gospel that we received from the prophets, Yeshua, and the apostles? I'm really interested to know what your opinion is of eternal torment , annihilation, or the Reconciliation of all things. Or do you believe something completely different? Thank you my friend and God bless you.
annanicole
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7/22/2015 9:28:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 9:21:39 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/22/2015 7:55:41 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/22/2015 3:32:18 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/21/2015 11:51:27 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

Hello annanicole, thanks for joining the conversation. What do you think of this Gospel?

What gospel? The only one with which I am familiar is from I Cor 15, as far as the brute facts of the gospel:

"Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures"
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
anonymouswho
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7/22/2015 9:37:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 1:57:24 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 7/22/2015 12:13:34 AM, anonymouswho wrote:

Yeshua had just finished feeding the multitudes, when he delivers a riddle to the disciples. The disciples still had no clue about half of the things Yeshua was talking about, but He chose them, so they had to follow.

"And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, TWELVE.
And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, SEVEN.
And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?" Mark 8:17

John gives us the answer to this riddle when he writes of the feeding:

"When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the FRAGMENTS that remain, that NOTHING BE LOST." John 6:12

Do you understand Skyangel?

I understand a lot more than most do. I have the mind of Christ ( 1 Cor 2:16)
I encourage you to put on the same mind too. ( Phil 2:5)

Unleavened bread in the bible represents truth and sincerity. 1 Cor 5:8 ..... but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Leavened bread represents doctrines. Matt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

The "bread" of Religions is like the leavened bread of the Pharisees and Saducees. It is preached as truth as they cherry pick what suits their doctrines from scripture and reject the rest as they place it in the basket of scriptures which don't fit their taste or don't fit their doctrines. They basically turn the truth ( unleavened bread) into a lie ( leavened bread ) by adding their "yeast" to it. Leaven or yeast is metaphoric of habitual mental and moral corruption, viewed in its tendency to infect others.
False doctrines corrupt people and lead them astray. It is a sad thing when those doctrines keep people bound in the worship of invisible idols and mentally stagnating as immature children rather than growing up mentally to have a mature mentality and state of mind which has put aside childish idolatry.

What about these verses?
"The Father loveth the Son, and hath GIVEN ALL things into his hand." John 3:35

"And this is the Father's WILL which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath GIVEN me I should LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39


The Father of LIFE is LIFE.
The Father of TRUTH is TRUTH.
The Father of LOVE is LOVE.
The "Father" is the mature process, principle, power, force, etc . The "Son" is the immature offspring which has been reproduced in the image of the mature.
When talking about attitudes ( spirits) the principle is that Love can only reproduce Love.
The "only begotten Son" ( only offspring) of Love is Love.
Love is not a man but is a spirit, an attitude within mankind. Love is not one man or many men but is ONE SPIRIT in which people can choose to live or not.
Replace the word Love with the word TRUTH and the same principle applies.

It is the WAY of LIFE in TRUTH which has compelled me to speak in LOVE and share the TRUTH which may offend all immature people who still think with their carnal mind and live in the way of the flesh which is led by the carnal nature.
TRUTH LOSES NOTHING at any time. It is people who reject the Truth which lose out on it and end up lost in fantasies where they worship invisible supernatural idols instead of putting on a mature mindset and understanding God is an attitude, a principle, a WAY of LIFE in TRUTH. It is not an invisible supernatural man.

The "last day" and the "first day" are the same "day" in God ( the principle of eternity ) which is never confined to TIME but is infinite. It ( personified as "He") IS the first and last, the beginning and end at all times. It or "He" is always with all LIFE in the ever present "NOW" which is constantly going and coming again instantaneously faster than anyone can measure it.
TRUTH is always with you and will never leave or forsake you at any time. Humans can forsake Truth and Love but Truth and Love cannot forsake humans. It is always present regardless of whether humans can sense it and recognize it or not.
Nothing is ever lost in reality. Reality ( the TRUTH) simply recycles itself constantly. It is Energy which cannot be created or destroyed.

You appear to believe at least some of the Scriptures. Your interpretation is not too far from my own, though I guess you would consider me a child since I believe that God is more than what we physically see to exist. I do believe there is the conscious Being that guides and determines all that happens. Cause and Effect appear to be working It's way towards something, and I believe only the conscious Being has the Knowledge, Wisdom, and Prudence to make this Plan, and to ascertain that it is fulfilled exactly as intended. But hey, if I am a child, Yeshua said that such is the Kingdom of God.

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." Luke 18:16

Like I said, you appear to believe the Scriptures, but you have a different interpretation. What is your interpretation of this passage?

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" 1 Corinthians 15:54

Thank you Skyangel and God bless you.
anonymouswho
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7/22/2015 9:55:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 9:28:20 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/22/2015 9:21:39 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/22/2015 7:55:41 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/22/2015 3:32:18 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/21/2015 11:51:27 PM, anonymouswho wrote:

Hello annanicole, thanks for joining the conversation. What do you think of this Gospel?

What gospel? The only one with which I am familiar is from I Cor 15, as far as the brute facts of the gospel:

"Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures"

Yes, but what does this mean? This is not the end of the Gospel. The very next verse says:

"AND that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve" 1 Corinthians 15:4

And the the chapter ends (well not really because the Greek doesn't use verses or chapters) ends with this wonderful proclamation:

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" 1 Corinthians 15:54

There is a lot of information in Corinthians 15. The whole chapter is the Gospel. God has delivered everything to Messiah, and Messiah is gathering all things to Himself. Is the following verse not the Wisdom that the Gospel leads us to:

For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
But every man in his OWN ORDER: Christ the FIRSTFRUITS; AFTERWARD they that are Christ's at his coming.
THEN cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put ALL ENEMIES under his feet.
The LAST enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when ALL things shall be SUBDUED unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL."

What does this mean?

Why was Messiah raised up?

Whose sins did He die for?

Was it for believers alone, or the whole world?

What happens to those that do not believe?

Why is Yeshua Crucified and Resurrected important?

Thank you.
JJ50
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7/22/2015 10:06:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
There is not the slightest bit of verifiable evidence to substantiate any of the gospel accounts of the less than credible activities attributed to Jesus!
anonymouswho
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7/22/2015 10:12:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 10:06:01 AM, JJ50 wrote:
There is not the slightest bit of verifiable evidence to substantiate any of the gospel accounts of the less than credible activities attributed to Jesus!

Thanks for joining us JJ50. I appreciate your deep, thought provoking reply. God bless you my friend.
anonymouswho
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7/22/2015 11:23:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 5:00:27 AM, graceofgod wrote

Hello again my friend. I wanted to explain the Garden of Eden and see if this makes sense to you. I believe the Garden scenario has been completely stripped of its meaning. I don't believe it had anything to do with a "choice". None of the other Scripture writers say anything about the Garden being about free will. I believe there is something far greater and more important than free will going on here. Please let me explain:

What is God doing? Why did He create mankind? He lays it all out for us in the very first chapters of Genesis:

"And God said, Let us MAKE man in our image, after our LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

God said right from the beginning what He wanted to accomplish. He wanted to make man in His Image, to be like Him.

"So God CREATED man in his own image, in the IMAGE of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27

The Creation process and the Making process are two different things. Created comes from the Hebrew bara, and only God can bara. Bara is in the perfect aspect (Hebrew doesn't have past, present, or future tense). The perfect aspect, when speaking of God, is to be understood as "here now- but not yet". This is because everything God sets out to do is certain to happen. Here's an article that explains the perfect aspect of Hebrew:

http://www.truthortradition.com...

So God is making man in His Image. How is He to accomplish this? What did man lack, that stopped them from being like God?

"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the MIDST of the garden, and the tree of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL." Genesis 2:9

We see that it was God Himself that planted the Tree of Knowledge, and He put it right in the middle of the Garden with the Tree of Life. Then God gives man this charge:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou MAYEST freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [shalt] not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:16

There are a few small problems with this translation, and it shows how a single word can change everything. First, it does not say "thou shall surely die", it says "dying thou die". The KJV translators left a footnote telling us this us the original Hebrew, but for some reason they chose to translate it this way.

The main problem with this verse is that the bonded "shalt" is not in the original Hebrew. The original literally says:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil eat not of for in the day that you eat dying you die

Here is an interlinear of this verse from biblehub:

http://biblehub.com...

The commandment was that they may eat of every tree in the Garden, but God warned them that the day they eat of the Fruit of Knowledge, they would die. He even says "for in that day", because He knew that day would eventually come.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had MADE. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall NOT eat of every tree of the garden?" Genesis 3:1

Now we see why the Serpent truly was a liar from the beginning. God did not say they shall "not" eat, he said they are free to eat of "any" tree. This confuses Eve, but she confirms what God said:

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye [shall] not eat of it, neither [shall] ye touch it, lest ye die." Genesis 3:2

Next, the Serpent tells another lie, mixed with some truth to confuse Eve.

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be AS gods, KNOWING good and evil."

We all know that Adam and Eve eventually died, as do all people. But the Serpent said that they would be "as" or "like" gods. This is what God said He was going to do in the first place, so where is the sin? The sin is spiritual:

"And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food, and that it was PLEASANT to the eyes, and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Genesis 3:6

Adam and Eve did not sin by taking the Fruit. They sinned because they lusted, coveted, and desired the Knowledge. However, they didn't know this was wrong. They had no knowledge of either Good or Evil. They couldn't weigh the options to make a Good decision because they didn't have the Knowledge to do so.

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become AS one of us, to KNOW good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

If we compare this verse with Genesis 1:26, we can see that everything is going exactly as God determined it to happen. As is all things that have ever happened, everything that is happening now, and everything that will ever happen. God works all things after the council of His own will, and that which He thinks or purposes shall surly come to pass.

"The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand" Isaiah 14:24

Does this make sense my friend?

Is anything I've told you unscriptural?

Thank you and God bless you.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,049
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7/22/2015 12:08:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 11:23:09 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/21/2015 5:00:27 AM, graceofgod wrote

Hello again my friend. I wanted to explain the Garden of Eden and see if this makes sense to you. I believe the Garden scenario has been completely stripped of its meaning. I don't believe it had anything to do with a "choice". None of the other Scripture writers say anything about the Garden being about free will. I believe there is something far greater and more important than free will going on here. Please let me explain:

What is God doing? Why did He create mankind? He lays it all out for us in the very first chapters of Genesis:

"And God said, Let us MAKE man in our image, after our LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

God said right from the beginning what He wanted to accomplish. He wanted to make man in His Image, to be like Him.

"So God CREATED man in his own image, in the IMAGE of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27

The Creation process and the Making process are two different things. Created comes from the Hebrew bara, and only God can bara. Bara is in the perfect aspect (Hebrew doesn't have past, present, or future tense). The perfect aspect, when speaking of God, is to be understood as "here now- but not yet". This is because everything God sets out to do is certain to happen. Here's an article that explains the perfect aspect of Hebrew:

http://www.truthortradition.com...

So God is making man in His Image. How is He to accomplish this? What did man lack, that stopped them from being like God?

"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the MIDST of the garden, and the tree of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL." Genesis 2:9

We see that it was God Himself that planted the Tree of Knowledge, and He put it right in the middle of the Garden with the Tree of Life. Then God gives man this charge:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou MAYEST freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [shalt] not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:16

There are a few small problems with this translation, and it shows how a single word can change everything. First, it does not say "thou shall surely die", it says "dying thou die". The KJV translators left a footnote telling us this us the original Hebrew, but for some reason they chose to translate it this way.

The main problem with this verse is that the bonded "shalt" is not in the original Hebrew. The original literally says:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil eat not of for in the day that you eat dying you die

Here is an interlinear of this verse from biblehub:

http://biblehub.com...

The commandment was that they may eat of every tree in the Garden, but God warned them that the day they eat of the Fruit of Knowledge, they would die. He even says "for in that day", because He knew that day would eventually come.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had MADE. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall NOT eat of every tree of the garden?" Genesis 3:1

Now we see why the Serpent truly was a liar from the beginning. God did not say they shall "not" eat, he said they are free to eat of "any" tree. This confuses Eve, but she confirms what God said:

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye [shall] not eat of it, neither [shall] ye touch it, lest ye die." Genesis 3:2

Next, the Serpent tells another lie, mixed with some truth to confuse Eve.

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be AS gods, KNOWING good and evil."

We all know that Adam and Eve eventually died, as do all people. But the Serpent said that they would be "as" or "like" gods. This is what God said He was going to do in the first place, so where is the sin? The sin is spiritual:

"And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food, and that it was PLEASANT to the eyes, and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Genesis 3:6

Adam and Eve did not sin by taking the Fruit. They sinned because they lusted, coveted, and desired the Knowledge. However, they didn't know this was wrong. They had no knowledge of either Good or Evil. They couldn't weigh the options to make a Good decision because they didn't have the Knowledge to do so.

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become AS one of us, to KNOW good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

If we compare this verse with Genesis 1:26, we can see that everything is going exactly as God determined it to happen. As is all things that have ever happened, everything that is happening now, and everything that will ever happen. God works all things after the council of His own will, and that which He thinks or purposes shall surly come to pass.

"The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand" Isaiah 14:24

Does this make sense my friend?

Is anything I've told you unscriptural?

Thank you and God bless you.

are you insinuating God's plan was to make more gods???
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/22/2015 1:31:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 12:08:17 PM, graceofgod wrote:

are you insinuating God's plan was to make more gods???

Not to make "more" gods, but to reproduce Himself. We are called His Children.

"Behold, what manner of LOVE the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the SONS of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Beloved, NOW are we the SONS of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be LIKE him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this HOPE in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." 1 John 3:1

This verse is speaking of believers in this present Age. God has not called out all to believe, but He has called out "many" (thus why Christianity is the largest, most diverse, most misunderstood religion in the world). However, He has only chosen a few. Many are called, few are chosen.

This verse does not say that everyone is called, but only a few get to heaven while the rest suffer for all of eternity. That is not Justice. That is far, far, FAR from Justice. Listen to the Spirit, does it not tell you that our Father is far greater than this? Far be it that you should believe me, but was Paul lying when he says:

(this is long but please read it carefully. It contains something I never noticed before):

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to FEAR; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, ABBA, FATHER.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the CHILDREN of God:
And if CHILDREN, then heirs; heirs of God, and JOIN-HEIRS with Christ; if so be that we SUFFER with him, that we may be also glorified together.
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the CREATURE WAITETH FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. (Why?)
For the creature was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of HIM who hath subjected the same in HOPE,
BECAUSE THE CREATURE ITSELF ALSO SHALL BE DELIVERED FROM THE BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD.
For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And NOT ONLY THEN, but OURSELVES ALSO, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:14

Do you see my friend? This is what has been delivered to us. This is the Good News! What better News could you possibly think of? Is God not able to do what is greater than anything our minds cam imagine? Of course He is. He is able, and He is willing.

God is delivering us from Vanity. Life is meaningless, and we all do what God has determined for us to do. We ate all as the grass, here for a while and then whither away.

"The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? ALL FLESH IS GRASS, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: SURELY THE PEOPLE IS GRASS." Isaiah 40:6

So we patiently wait until all has been fulfilled, when we shall be brought out of this Vanity and into the glorious liberty of as the Children of God. Do not the Old Scriptures teach us this very thing?

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity." Ecclesiastes 1:2

If Yeshua came to warn us about an eternal torture chamber, then He did not bring Good News. In fact, He would have brought the worst news that mankind had ever heard of! What can you possibly imagjne that is worst than the image of hell? The Hebrew Scriptures know nothing of hell. The Jews have never believed in it. If this is what Yeshua taught, it was very, very bad news.

" And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU." Luke 17:20

What does this mean? It is not our actions that God judges, as He has determined all:

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." Proverbs 16:9

It is your heart that God is after:

"But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD SEETH NOT AS MAN TEETH; for man looketh on the OUTWARD APPEARANCE, but the LORD LOOKETH ON THE HEART." 1 Samuel 16:7

God judges our heart. And when God judges, amazing things happen:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS." Isaiah 26:9

And God will judge the entire world:

"Because he hath appointed a DAY, in the which he will JUDGE THE WORLD IN RIGHTEOUSNESS by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto ALL men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

Paul tells us that He will judge the world through us:

"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" 1 Corinthians 6:2

If we are to judge the world, what are we told to do?

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matthew 19:21

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, EVEN as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:43

"Herein is love, NOT that we loved God, but that HE loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." 1 John 4:10

"Woe unto you, SCRIBES and PHARISEES, HYPOCRITES! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have OMITTED THE WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF THE LAW, JUDGMENT, MERCY, and FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matthew 23:23

So I ask my friend, should these things be reinterpreted to fit around hell, or should hell be reinterpreted to work with Love?

What happens when we compare Spiritual with Spiritual?

Does anything contradict these Scriptures?

Thank you and God bless.