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The issue of Faith

kasmic
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7/22/2015 3:34:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In Christianity, Faith is a bedrock principle of the gospel. How is faith defined?

In Hebrews 11: 1 we read "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Notice the lack of evidence, it is inherent in the definition provided of faith.

From this we see that the Christian concept of faith is to hope for things that are unseen. Things that the evidence for is absent. This is ironic as if by chance you were to visit Christian congregations you will likely hear people state that they "know" the Bible is true, or that they "know" their Church is true. Usually such proclamations are given along with phrases like "with every fiber of my being"" and "without a shadow of a doubt." I have often wondered how many Christians realize or notice this incoherency. Do they "know" or do they have "faith?"

As much as it may seem pedantic or overkill to quote a dictionary, it is worth doing in this case. Evidence is "that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof."(2) Thus we see that the notion of "walking by faith, and not by sight" (3) is to believe in something without grounds for belief. This is clearly nonsensical. Can I tell you to walk without the means to walk, or to see without the ability to see? Surely not, but here the concept of faith is just that. To believe when one should not.

We find in 1 Corinthians Chapter 2 "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him." To this I say Amen! Why would I receive what is demonstrably foolish?

We see than that faith is necessarily irrational. Most occasions I present this truth I am met with contempt often resulting in aggressive and ill-tempered rebuttals. It only gets worse when I then quote, in my opinion, the greatest verse of scripture. "Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?" Galatians 4: 16

The great danger in faith is the blind obedience that accompanies it. In James 2 we read that "Faith without works is dead." Thus it is not enough to profess belief in something without grounds to believe, you must act on it. Let say, for example, I have faith that the world is to end tomorrow. This means that despite lack of evidence of any kind I believe that the world is to end. I must now act in a way that demonstrates this belief. No matter what evidence is provided, rational reasoning, persuasion or whatever, doesn"t matter. "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than man." (4)

You have likely heard the Hans Christian Andersen"s "The Emperor"s new clothes." If not, here is Wikipedia"s version".

"A vain Emperor who cares about nothing except wearing and displaying clothes hires two swindlers who promise him the finest, best suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "hopelessly stupid". The Emperor's ministers cannot see the clothing themselves, but pretend that they can for fear of appearing unfit for their positions and the Emperor does the same. Finally the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they mime dressing him and the Emperor marches in procession before his subjects. The townsfolk play along with the pretense, not wanting to appear unfit for their positions or stupid. Then a child in the crowd, too young to understand the desirability of keeping up the pretense, blurts out that the Emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is taken up by others. The Emperor cringes, suspects the assertion is true, but continues the procession." (5)

Faith is much the "clothes." I have repeatedly pointed out the issue of faith to which, the faithful, like the emperor must see this issue but choose to ignore it or don"t mind believing a bare assertion.

There is no rational way to contend with a religious concept that requires "faith." This is because Faith is inherently irrational.

(1) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(2) 2 Corinthians 5:7
(3) 1 Corinthians 1:25
(4) https://en.wikipedia.org...
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
kasmic
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7/22/2015 3:35:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Each sited sources is one number off... oops...
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
graceofgod
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7/22/2015 4:11:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
While Christians have faith that is very true it does not have to stop there, when you see God work in your own life and situations or the life and situations of other believers or even non believers you can get to that place where the apostles Paul was when he declared for I am convinced..
faith is a starting point and even remains till the end but it does not have to be your only experience of God...
Benshapiro
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7/22/2015 4:18:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 3:34:00 PM, kasmic wrote:
In Christianity, Faith is a bedrock principle of the gospel. How is faith defined?

In Hebrews 11: 1 we read "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Notice the lack of evidence, it is inherent in the definition provided of faith.

From this we see that the Christian concept of faith is to hope for things that are unseen. Things that the evidence for is absent. This is ironic as if by chance you were to visit Christian congregations you will likely hear people state that they "know" the Bible is true, or that they "know" their Church is true. Usually such proclamations are given along with phrases like "with every fiber of my being"" and "without a shadow of a doubt." I have often wondered how many Christians realize or notice this incoherency. Do they "know" or do they have "faith?"

As much as it may seem pedantic or overkill to quote a dictionary, it is worth doing in this case. Evidence is "that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof."(2) Thus we see that the notion of "walking by faith, and not by sight" (3) is to believe in something without grounds for belief. This is clearly nonsensical. Can I tell you to walk without the means to walk, or to see without the ability to see? Surely not, but here the concept of faith is just that. To believe when one should not.

We find in 1 Corinthians Chapter 2 "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him." To this I say Amen! Why would I receive what is demonstrably foolish?

We see than that faith is necessarily irrational. Most occasions I present this truth I am met with contempt often resulting in aggressive and ill-tempered rebuttals. It only gets worse when I then quote, in my opinion, the greatest verse of scripture. "Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?" Galatians 4: 16

The great danger in faith is the blind obedience that accompanies it. In James 2 we read that "Faith without works is dead." Thus it is not enough to profess belief in something without grounds to believe, you must act on it. Let say, for example, I have faith that the world is to end tomorrow. This means that despite lack of evidence of any kind I believe that the world is to end. I must now act in a way that demonstrates this belief. No matter what evidence is provided, rational reasoning, persuasion or whatever, doesn"t matter. "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than man." (4)

You have likely heard the Hans Christian Andersen"s "The Emperor"s new clothes." If not, here is Wikipedia"s version".

"A vain Emperor who cares about nothing except wearing and displaying clothes hires two swindlers who promise him the finest, best suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "hopelessly stupid". The Emperor's ministers cannot see the clothing themselves, but pretend that they can for fear of appearing unfit for their positions and the Emperor does the same. Finally the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they mime dressing him and the Emperor marches in procession before his subjects. The townsfolk play along with the pretense, not wanting to appear unfit for their positions or stupid. Then a child in the crowd, too young to understand the desirability of keeping up the pretense, blurts out that the Emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is taken up by others. The Emperor cringes, suspects the assertion is true, but continues the procession." (5)

Faith is much the "clothes." I have repeatedly pointed out the issue of faith to which, the faithful, like the emperor must see this issue but choose to ignore it or don"t mind believing a bare assertion.

There is no rational way to contend with a religious concept that requires "faith." This is because Faith is inherently irrational.

(1) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(2) 2 Corinthians 5:7
(3) 1 Corinthians 1:25
(4) https://en.wikipedia.org...

I think you took "things unseen" to mean "things without evidence" and I don't think that's an accurate translation.

Mathematical entities and logical truths are "things unseen" but are certainly evidenced.
kasmic
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7/22/2015 4:22:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think you took "things unseen" to mean "things without evidence" and I don't think that's an accurate translation.

How would you define faith?

Mathematical entities and logical truths are "things unseen" but are certainly evidenced.

Exactly... and was the Bible defining mathematical entities or logical truths in that verse.

I don't think it is a jump to say that to walk by faith and not by sight means without evidence.

Does not Christ say to Thomas... Blessed are they who have believed and not seen...
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
kasmic
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7/22/2015 4:23:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
faith is a starting point and even remains till the end but it does not have to be your only experience of God...

So as a starting point, I am to believe without reason to believe?
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
graceofgod
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7/22/2015 4:28:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:23:42 PM, kasmic wrote:
faith is a starting point and even remains till the end but it does not have to be your only experience of God...

So as a starting point, I am to believe without reason to believe?

did you just believe evolution when you heard the word???

faith is the beginning of the subject, the beginning of understanding ....
kasmic
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7/22/2015 4:32:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:28:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:23:42 PM, kasmic wrote:
faith is a starting point and even remains till the end but it does not have to be your only experience of God...

So as a starting point, I am to believe without reason to believe?

did you just believe evolution when you heard the word???

faith is the beginning of the subject, the beginning of understanding ....

When I first heard the theory of evolution I rejected it flatly... I did not "believe" in it. I still don't believe in it now... rather having examined evidence I know it to be reality.

First time I hear things I typically don't "believe" unless I am given a reason to.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Benshapiro
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7/22/2015 4:32:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:22:15 PM, kasmic wrote:
I think you took "things unseen" to mean "things without evidence" and I don't think that's an accurate translation.

How would you define faith?

To seek truth in the face of uncertainty

Mathematical entities and logical truths are "things unseen" but are certainly evidenced.

Exactly... and was the Bible defining mathematical entities or logical truths in that verse.

No, but it said things unseen which those are. It didn't say "without evidence" which is what your OP hinges upon.

I don't think it is a jump to say that to walk by faith and not by sight means without evidence.

I think it's an unsubstantiated jump. It's basically saying listen to what your heart tells you. I think human beings are endowed with innate knowledge and sense and even thought it can't be verified empirically, truth sometimes can't be.

Does not Christ say to Thomas... Blessed are they who have believed and not seen...

I believe in God and have never seen him. I also have logical reasons to believe.
kasmic
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7/22/2015 4:34:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think it's an unsubstantiated jump. It's basically saying listen to what your heart tells you. I think human beings are endowed with innate knowledge and sense and even thought it can't be verified empirically, truth sometimes can't be.

Can you explain what listening to your heart means in more detail.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
graceofgod
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7/22/2015 4:36:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:32:10 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:28:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:23:42 PM, kasmic wrote:
faith is a starting point and even remains till the end but it does not have to be your only experience of God...

So as a starting point, I am to believe without reason to believe?

did you just believe evolution when you heard the word???

faith is the beginning of the subject, the beginning of understanding ....

When I first heard the theory of evolution I rejected it flatly... I did not "believe" in it. I still don't believe in it now... rather having examined evidence I know it to be reality.

First time I hear things I typically don't "believe" unless I am given a reason to.

did you reject it the moment you heard the word spoken or did you look in to it...??

for a believer a quickening in the spirit may be what prompts them to accept in faith the idea that it is true, then as you walk you realise more and more the truth that your were right to believe..
Benshapiro
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7/22/2015 4:39:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:34:39 PM, kasmic wrote:
I think it's an unsubstantiated jump. It's basically saying listen to what your heart tells you. I think human beings are endowed with innate knowledge and sense and even thought it can't be verified empirically, truth sometimes can't be.

Can you explain what listening to your heart means in more detail.

If you apprehend a sense of spirituality, listen to it.
kasmic
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7/22/2015 4:40:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
did you reject it the moment you heard the word spoken or did you look in to it...??

I was raised in a very religious family. I read and prayed daily. It was only over this last year grew out of my faith.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/22/2015 4:41:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 3:34:00 PM, kasmic wrote:
In Christianity, Faith is a bedrock principle of the gospel. How is faith defined?

In Hebrews 11: 1 we read "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Notice the lack of evidence, it is inherent in the definition provided of faith.

From this we see that the Christian concept of faith is to hope for things that are unseen. Things that the evidence for is absent. This is ironic as if by chance you were to visit Christian congregations you will likely hear people state that they "know" the Bible is true, or that they "know" their Church is true. Usually such proclamations are given along with phrases like "with every fiber of my being"" and "without a shadow of a doubt." I have often wondered how many Christians realize or notice this incoherency. Do they "know" or do they have "faith?"

As much as it may seem pedantic or overkill to quote a dictionary, it is worth doing in this case. Evidence is "that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof."(2) Thus we see that the notion of "walking by faith, and not by sight" (3) is to believe in something without grounds for belief. This is clearly nonsensical. Can I tell you to walk without the means to walk, or to see without the ability to see? Surely not, but here the concept of faith is just that. To believe when one should not.

We find in 1 Corinthians Chapter 2 "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him." To this I say Amen! Why would I receive what is demonstrably foolish?

We see than that faith is necessarily irrational. Most occasions I present this truth I am met with contempt often resulting in aggressive and ill-tempered rebuttals. It only gets worse when I then quote, in my opinion, the greatest verse of scripture. "Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?" Galatians 4: 16

The great danger in faith is the blind obedience that accompanies it. In James 2 we read that "Faith without works is dead." Thus it is not enough to profess belief in something without grounds to believe, you must act on it. Let say, for example, I have faith that the world is to end tomorrow. This means that despite lack of evidence of any kind I believe that the world is to end. I must now act in a way that demonstrates this belief. No matter what evidence is provided, rational reasoning, persuasion or whatever, doesn"t matter. "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than man." (4)

You have likely heard the Hans Christian Andersen"s "The Emperor"s new clothes." If not, here is Wikipedia"s version".

"A vain Emperor who cares about nothing except wearing and displaying clothes hires two swindlers who promise him the finest, best suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "hopelessly stupid". The Emperor's ministers cannot see the clothing themselves, but pretend that they can for fear of appearing unfit for their positions and the Emperor does the same. Finally the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they mime dressing him and the Emperor marches in procession before his subjects. The townsfolk play along with the pretense, not wanting to appear unfit for their positions or stupid. Then a child in the crowd, too young to understand the desirability of keeping up the pretense, blurts out that the Emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is taken up by others. The Emperor cringes, suspects the assertion is true, but continues the procession." (5)

Faith is much the "clothes." I have repeatedly pointed out the issue of faith to which, the faithful, like the emperor must see this issue but choose to ignore it or don"t mind believing a bare assertion.

There is no rational way to contend with a religious concept that requires "faith." This is because Faith is inherently irrational.

(1) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(2) 2 Corinthians 5:7
(3) 1 Corinthians 1:25
(4) https://en.wikipedia.org...

You have built up the largest straw man I've ever seen then expected Christians to account for it lol.

First of all let us begin by toppling the straw man.

In Hebrews 11: 1 we read "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Notice the lack of evidence, it is inherent in the definition provided of faith.

You have it all wrong my friend, faith is SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is the substance which produces evidence, evidence that has not been observed. Go back and read the rest of the chapter and you will get it, that faith was used TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is a substance that is trust, that trust is confidence in God to produce evidence. When evidence is produced faith (confidence) is strengthened.
Notice how Jesus says "ye of little faith", because their trust in God was little, but Jesus knew faith produced results (evidence), that is why He describes it as a seed, seeds produce fruit.
In other words faith produces evidence, faith is a spiritual substance.
kasmic
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7/22/2015 4:41:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:39:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:34:39 PM, kasmic wrote:
I think it's an unsubstantiated jump. It's basically saying listen to what your heart tells you. I think human beings are endowed with innate knowledge and sense and even thought it can't be verified empirically, truth sometimes can't be.

Can you explain what listening to your heart means in more detail.

If you apprehend a sense of spirituality, listen to it.

So, I have heard this line of thought before.

x is true because it feels true.

Do not all religions claim this kind of verification and yet teach conflicting doctrines. Leading me to believe either God is messed up telling people contrary things, or the more plausible.... something feeling good does not make it true.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
kasmic
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7/22/2015 4:43:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In Hebrews 11: 1 we read "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Notice the lack of evidence, it is inherent in the definition provided of faith.

You have it all wrong my friend, faith is SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is the substance which produces evidence, evidence that has not been observed. Go back and read the rest of the chapter and you will get it, that faith was used TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is a substance that is trust, that trust is confidence in God to produce evidence. When evidence is produced faith (confidence) is strengthened.
Notice how Jesus says "ye of little faith", because their trust in God was little, but Jesus knew faith produced results (evidence), that is why He describes it as a seed, seeds produce fruit.
In other words faith produces evidence, faith is a spiritual substance.

So tell me of the evidence you have received as a result of your faith.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
graceofgod
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7/22/2015 4:43:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:40:33 PM, kasmic wrote:
did you reject it the moment you heard the word spoken or did you look in to it...??

I was raised in a very religious family. I read and prayed daily. It was only over this last year grew out of my faith.

I meant the word evolution?? did you reject it immediately or did you look in to it..?

religion is of no use to anyone, it was the religious type that Jesus had most trouble with...

may I ask what relgion or denomination it was??
EtrnlVw
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7/22/2015 4:44:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:43:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
In Hebrews 11: 1 we read "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Notice the lack of evidence, it is inherent in the definition provided of faith.

You have it all wrong my friend, faith is SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is the substance which produces evidence, evidence that has not been observed. Go back and read the rest of the chapter and you will get it, that faith was used TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is a substance that is trust, that trust is confidence in God to produce evidence. When evidence is produced faith (confidence) is strengthened.
Notice how Jesus says "ye of little faith", because their trust in God was little, but Jesus knew faith produced results (evidence), that is why He describes it as a seed, seeds produce fruit.
In other words faith produces evidence, faith is a spiritual substance.

So tell me of the evidence you have received as a result of your faith.

The fruit of the Spirit, it's not a one-time thing. It is a lifetime of applying and observing.
kasmic
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7/22/2015 4:44:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:43:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:40:33 PM, kasmic wrote:
did you reject it the moment you heard the word spoken or did you look in to it...??

I was raised in a very religious family. I read and prayed daily. It was only over this last year grew out of my faith.

I meant the word evolution?? did you reject it immediately or did you look in to it..?

religion is of no use to anyone, it was the religious type that Jesus had most trouble with...

may I ask what relgion or denomination it was??

I was a devout Latter-day Saint and held leadership roles.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
EtrnlVw
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7/22/2015 4:46:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:44:43 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:43:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
In Hebrews 11: 1 we read "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Notice the lack of evidence, it is inherent in the definition provided of faith.

You have it all wrong my friend, faith is SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is the substance which produces evidence, evidence that has not been observed. Go back and read the rest of the chapter and you will get it, that faith was used TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is a substance that is trust, that trust is confidence in God to produce evidence. When evidence is produced faith (confidence) is strengthened.
Notice how Jesus says "ye of little faith", because their trust in God was little, but Jesus knew faith produced results (evidence), that is why He describes it as a seed, seeds produce fruit.
In other words faith produces evidence, faith is a spiritual substance.

So tell me of the evidence you have received as a result of your faith.

The fruit of the Spirit, it's not a one-time thing. It is a lifetime of applying and observing.

Also I would like you to acknowledge that Hebrews chapter 11 is in contradiction to what you are pretending to preach, until you do so we are at a stand still.
Benshapiro
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7/22/2015 4:48:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:41:59 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:39:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:34:39 PM, kasmic wrote:
I think it's an unsubstantiated jump. It's basically saying listen to what your heart tells you. I think human beings are endowed with innate knowledge and sense and even thought it can't be verified empirically, truth sometimes can't be.

Can you explain what listening to your heart means in more detail.

If you apprehend a sense of spirituality, listen to it.

So, I have heard this line of thought before.

x is true because it feels true.

Do not all religions claim this kind of verification and yet teach conflicting doctrines. Leading me to believe either God is messed up telling people contrary things, or the more plausible.... something feeling good does not make it true.

Like I said, faith is to seek the truth in the face of uncertainty. You might apprehend that something is true without knowing why. Moral truths are in the same boat.

The proposition "God exists" isn't true because of faith. It's a perspective of the evidence, one that utilizes spiritual truths - as innate awareness/knowledge/sense - that can't be verified empirically.
kasmic
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7/22/2015 4:48:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:46:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:44:43 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:43:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
In Hebrews 11: 1 we read "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Notice the lack of evidence, it is inherent in the definition provided of faith.

You have it all wrong my friend, faith is SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is the substance which produces evidence, evidence that has not been observed. Go back and read the rest of the chapter and you will get it, that faith was used TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is a substance that is trust, that trust is confidence in God to produce evidence. When evidence is produced faith (confidence) is strengthened.
Notice how Jesus says "ye of little faith", because their trust in God was little, but Jesus knew faith produced results (evidence), that is why He describes it as a seed, seeds produce fruit.
In other words faith produces evidence, faith is a spiritual substance.

So tell me of the evidence you have received as a result of your faith.

The fruit of the Spirit, it's not a one-time thing. It is a lifetime of applying and observing.

Also I would like you to acknowledge that Hebrews chapter 11 is in contradiction to what you are pretending to preach, until you do so we are at a stand still.

The "Fruit" of the spirit as listed in Galatians are all feelings. How do you know your feelings are supernatural and not self-affirmation as is more likely.
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kasmic
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7/22/2015 4:49:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The proposition "God exists" isn't true because of faith. It's a perspective of the evidence, one that utilizes spiritual truths - as innate awareness/knowledge/sense - that can't be verified empirically.

"can't be verified empirically." In other words... evidence.
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graceofgod
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7/22/2015 4:49:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:44:55 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:43:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:40:33 PM, kasmic wrote:
did you reject it the moment you heard the word spoken or did you look in to it...??

I was raised in a very religious family. I read and prayed daily. It was only over this last year grew out of my faith.

I meant the word evolution?? did you reject it immediately or did you look in to it..?

religion is of no use to anyone, it was the religious type that Jesus had most trouble with...

may I ask what relgion or denomination it was??

I was a devout Latter-day Saint and held leadership roles.

I have read a great deal about the lds and have had many missionaries visit, some of them many times...

they have many doctrines that go far beyond the bible and many that seriously contradict the bible, with constant changes to their stances,.

I'm not surprised you lost your faith...
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,954
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7/22/2015 4:50:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:49:15 PM, kasmic wrote:
The proposition "God exists" isn't true because of faith. It's a perspective of the evidence, one that utilizes spiritual truths - as innate awareness/knowledge/sense - that can't be verified empirically.

"can't be verified empirically." In other words... evidence.

Do you consider mathematical entities or the laws of logic could be used as evidence for something?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/22/2015 4:52:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:48:03 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:46:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:44:43 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:43:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
In Hebrews 11: 1 we read "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Notice the lack of evidence, it is inherent in the definition provided of faith.

You have it all wrong my friend, faith is SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is the substance which produces evidence, evidence that has not been observed. Go back and read the rest of the chapter and you will get it, that faith was used TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is a substance that is trust, that trust is confidence in God to produce evidence. When evidence is produced faith (confidence) is strengthened.
Notice how Jesus says "ye of little faith", because their trust in God was little, but Jesus knew faith produced results (evidence), that is why He describes it as a seed, seeds produce fruit.
In other words faith produces evidence, faith is a spiritual substance.

So tell me of the evidence you have received as a result of your faith.

The fruit of the Spirit, it's not a one-time thing. It is a lifetime of applying and observing.

Also I would like you to acknowledge that Hebrews chapter 11 is in contradiction to what you are pretending to preach, until you do so we are at a stand still.

The "Fruit" of the spirit as listed in Galatians are all feelings. How do you know your feelings are supernatural and not self-affirmation as is more likely.

That comes with the territory, I know myself, my mind, what it produces and what I am capable of. The spirit works outside of oneself, I know how it operates because I have been studying it for quite some time.
You of course will filter everything through a material mindset to block anything I say but that is no way to learn, try something a little fresh.
kasmic
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7/22/2015 4:53:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:50:21 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:49:15 PM, kasmic wrote:
The proposition "God exists" isn't true because of faith. It's a perspective of the evidence, one that utilizes spiritual truths - as innate awareness/knowledge/sense - that can't be verified empirically.

"can't be verified empirically." In other words... evidence.

Do you consider mathematical entities or the laws of logic could be used as evidence for something?

When Mathematical principles and laws of logic are applied... i.e. applied mathematics applied logic, yes I do.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

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EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/22/2015 4:53:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:52:30 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:48:03 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:46:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:44:43 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/22/2015 4:43:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
In Hebrews 11: 1 we read "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Notice the lack of evidence, it is inherent in the definition provided of faith.

You have it all wrong my friend, faith is SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is the substance which produces evidence, evidence that has not been observed. Go back and read the rest of the chapter and you will get it, that faith was used TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE, not the lack thereof.
Faith is a substance that is trust, that trust is confidence in God to produce evidence. When evidence is produced faith (confidence) is strengthened.
Notice how Jesus says "ye of little faith", because their trust in God was little, but Jesus knew faith produced results (evidence), that is why He describes it as a seed, seeds produce fruit.
In other words faith produces evidence, faith is a spiritual substance.

So tell me of the evidence you have received as a result of your faith.

The fruit of the Spirit, it's not a one-time thing. It is a lifetime of applying and observing.

Also I would like you to acknowledge that Hebrews chapter 11 is in contradiction to what you are pretending to preach, until you do so we are at a stand still.

The "Fruit" of the spirit as listed in Galatians are all feelings. How do you know your feelings are supernatural and not self-affirmation as is more likely.

That comes with the territory, I know myself, my mind, what it produces and what I am capable of. The spirit works outside of oneself, I know how it operates because I have been studying it for quite some time.
You of course will filter everything through a material mindset to block anything I say but that is no way to learn, try something a little fresh.

And if you don't fairly acknowledge what I've said then this conversation is pointless, do me a favor and show me you have some integrity.
Mike.com
Posts: 91
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7/22/2015 4:54:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 4:22:15 PM, kasmic wrote:
I think you took "things unseen" to mean "things without evidence" and I don't think that's an accurate translation.

How would you define faith?

Mathematical entities and logical truths are "things unseen" but are certainly evidenced.

Exactly... and was the Bible defining mathematical entities or logical truths in that verse.

I don't think it is a jump to say that to walk by faith and not by sight means without evidence.

Does not Christ say to Thomas... Blessed are they who have believed and not seen...

Is it not reasonable that if Thomas doubted the story, billions of people afterwards should be able to doubt as well, without the forced option of eternal punishment awaiting by wanting some real evidence. like he did?