Total Posts:13|Showing Posts:1-13
Jump to topic:

CFZ Roman Catholics and Martin Luther

Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2015 8:39:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Roman Catholics only:
What is your opinion on Martin Luther?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2015 10:15:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Not a Roman Catholic, but my favorite Roman Catholic has a take on Luther the I find really refreshing:

"IT is true that Luther's own religious experience was both genuine and profound, but it was not the positive intuition of the contemplative; it was a dark and tormented sense of man's utter helplessness and of the otherness of the Divine Power. For his discarding of the intellectual element in religion had brought his mind back, as it were, to the religious attitude of primitive man who sees the Divine as an unknown and hostile power from which it recoils in terror, "Yea," he writes,

"God is more terrible and frightful than the Devil, for he dealeth with us and bringeth to ruin with power, smiteth and hammereth us and payeth no heed to us. 'In His majesty He is a consuming fire,' For therefrom can no man refrain; if he thinketh on God aright his heart in his body is stricken with terror. . . . Yea, as soon as he heareth God named he is filled with trepidation and fear.

"For He assaileth a man and has such a delight therein that He is of His Jealousy and Wrath impelled to consume the wicked."

But Luther's personal attitude is decidedly abnormal and nonrepresentative; the normal Protestant religious experience is of the milder and more emotional type represented by pietism and revivalism. Here faith is no longer conceived as a super-rational knowledge founded on the Divine Reason, but as a subjective conviction of one's own conversion and justification, and in place of the personal ecstasy of the mystic, who realizes his own nothingness, we have the self-conscious attitude of the pietist, who is intensely preoccupied with his own feelings and with the moral state of his neighbor. And this substitution if the ideal of pietism for those of asceticism and mysticism eventually led to the weakening and discrediting of the ethical ideals of Christianity, just as sectarianism undermined its social authority. However unjust may be the popular caricature of the pietist as a snuffling hypocrite of the type of Tribulation Wholesome or Zeal-of-the Land Busy or Mr. Chadband, there can be no doubt that Puritan and Evangelical pietism succeeded in making religion supremely unattractive in a way that medieval asceticism had never done."
-Christopher Dawson -
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2015 10:33:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:39:09 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Roman Catholics only:
What is your opinion on Martin Luther?

Fantastic human being. Spiritually driven most all hIs life.
Though he had his colorful attitude, the anger towards corruptness in the church, as well as the world, made it his lively characteristic. I am glad for how God used Him.

He was a bit confusing, having come out of Catholicism, about the sacraments and free will; when put together especially. Free will he replied to with his book called "The Bondage of the Will", but when he got the sacraments, mainly baptism, mixed in, it got a little confusing.
ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2015 10:37:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 10:33:32 PM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 7/22/2015 8:39:09 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Roman Catholics only:
What is your opinion on Martin Luther?

Fantastic human being. Spiritually driven most all hIs life.
Though he had his colorful attitude, the anger towards corruptness in the church, as well as the world, made it his lively characteristic. I am glad for how God used Him.

He was a bit confusing, having come out of Catholicism, about the sacraments and free will; when put together especially. Free will he replied to with his book called "The Bondage of the Will", but when he got the sacraments, mainly baptism, mixed in, it got a little confusing.

Oh. my bad. I was a bit too quick to answer. I see it was meant for Roman Catholics.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,270
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2015 11:35:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:39:09 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Roman Catholics only:
What is your opinion on Martin Luther?

Short: Heretic.

Long: A scholarly monk who saw abuses in the Church and had powerful men make him "mad" with his own power and use him to fracture Christianity. He had malformed ideas of the Gospel, removed books from the Old Testament that disagreed with his views and went so far as to alter the New Testament. So Luther created a new religion by giving himself authority that even the Pope did not claim, fractured Christianity throughout Europe and broke his vows to God by marrying a nun.

Here are some of the things Luther said:

"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.", from Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521.

"Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: Whatever has He been doing with her? Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.", from Trishreden, Weimer Edition, Vol. 2, Pg. 107

"What harm could it do if a man told a good lusty lie in a worthy cause and for the sake of the Christian Churches?", from Lenz: Briefwechsel, Vol. 1. Pg. 373.

"If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham."

"The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves."
, taken from "The Jews and their Lies"

"To kill a peasant is not murder; it is helping to extinguish the conflagration. Let there be no half measures! Crush them! Cut their throats! Transfix them. Leave no stone unturned! To kill a peasant is to destroy a mad dog! If they say that I am very hard and merciless, mercy be damned. Let whoever can stab, strangle, and kill them like mad dogs.", from Erlangen Vol 24, Pg. 294

"If the husband is unwilling, there is another who is; if the wife is unwilling, then let the maid come.", from "Of Married Life "

"The word and work of God is quite clear, viz., that women are made to be either wives or prostitutes.", from "Of Married Life "

"There is no scandal greater, more dangerous, more venomous, than a good outward life, manifested by good works and a pious mode of life. That is the grand portal, the highway that leads to damnation.", from Denifle's Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d'apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 128

The American Journalist William Shirer wrote:

"It is difficult to understand the behavior of most German Protestants in the first Nazi years unless one is aware of two things: their history and the influence of Martin Luther. The great founder of Protestantism was both a passionate anti-Semite and a ferocious believer in absolute obedience to political authority. He wanted Germany rid of the Jews. Luther's advice was literally followed four centuries later by Hitler, Goering and Himmler."
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2015 2:48:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 11:35:29 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/22/2015 8:39:09 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Roman Catholics only:
What is your opinion on Martin Luther?

Short: Heretic.

Long: A scholarly monk who saw abuses in the Church and had powerful men make him "mad" with his own power and use him to fracture Christianity. He had malformed ideas of the Gospel, removed books from the Old Testament that disagreed with his views and went so far as to alter the New Testament. So Luther created a new religion by giving himself authority that even the Pope did not claim, fractured Christianity throughout Europe and broke his vows to God by marrying a nun.

Here are some of the things Luther said:

"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.", from Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521.

"Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: Whatever has He been doing with her? Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.", from Trishreden, Weimer Edition, Vol. 2, Pg. 107

"What harm could it do if a man told a good lusty lie in a worthy cause and for the sake of the Christian Churches?", from Lenz: Briefwechsel, Vol. 1. Pg. 373.

"If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham."

"The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves."
, taken from "The Jews and their Lies"

"To kill a peasant is not murder; it is helping to extinguish the conflagration. Let there be no half measures! Crush them! Cut their throats! Transfix them. Leave no stone unturned! To kill a peasant is to destroy a mad dog! If they say that I am very hard and merciless, mercy be damned. Let whoever can stab, strangle, and kill them like mad dogs.", from Erlangen Vol 24, Pg. 294

"If the husband is unwilling, there is another who is; if the wife is unwilling, then let the maid come.", from "Of Married Life "

"The word and work of God is quite clear, viz., that women are made to be either wives or prostitutes.", from "Of Married Life "

"There is no scandal greater, more dangerous, more venomous, than a good outward life, manifested by good works and a pious mode of life. That is the grand portal, the highway that leads to damnation.", from Denifle's Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d'apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 128


The American Journalist William Shirer wrote:

"It is difficult to understand the behavior of most German Protestants in the first Nazi years unless one is aware of two things: their history and the influence of Martin Luther. The great founder of Protestantism was both a passionate anti-Semite and a ferocious believer in absolute obedience to political authority. He wanted Germany rid of the Jews. Luther's advice was literally followed four centuries later by Hitler, Goering and Himmler."

I know this thread is intended to not be confrontational, but please excuse me as I try to argue with you about this:
The church was kind of screwed up by the time of the Reformation. The church was making money by telling people they needed to pay money to the church otherwise they'd spend thousands of years in a quasi-hell in penance for their sins. People such as Tetzel made a killing doing this, all with Rome's approval. It had become a business, wealthy Italian banking families used their influence to place their own on the throne, at least one Pope fathered illegitimate children, and there were rumors (probably true) that one Pope was a practicing homosexual.
At the very least, the church needed to undergo some serious reforms. Martin Luther decided on another course of action: break apart from the Church of Rome and form a pure, doctrinally sound church (whether or not his church was doctrinally sound or not is another matter). In short, Martin Luther caused countless people in Europe to leave the Catholic Church and join other churches which rightly placed an emphasis on salvation by grace through faith (Sola Gratia). The Roman Church wasn't about to fix itself, so the way I see it the Reformation was needed so that at least half of all European Christians bought into sound doctrine in regards to salvation.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2015 2:53:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The way I see it, the Roman Church was basically the idea that all Christendom needed to be united, and that the Leader of Christendom needed to be someone who was part of the line which succeeded Saint Peter. This works just so long as the Church teaches sound doctrine and isn't corrupt. By the time of Martin Luther it had become messed up.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2015 3:07:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/22/2015 8:39:09 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Roman Catholics only:
What is your opinion on Martin Luther?

Excuse me but why would you ask Catholics what they think about Martin Luther lol? That should be obvious....
Geogeer
Posts: 4,270
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 1:24:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 2:48:59 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

I know this thread is intended to not be confrontational,

Oh. My apologies I thought you wanted an honest answer... Luther was a great guy, he gave awesome parties.

but please excuse me as I try to argue with you about this:

Hey, it is a debating website!

The church was kind of screwed up by the time of the Reformation. The church was making money by telling people they needed to pay money to the church otherwise they'd spend thousands of years in a quasi-hell in penance for their sins.

That is precisely not what the Church teaches. Purgatory is by all means a Catholic doctrine. And indulgences had existed for centuries prior to this time. If you look at the early Church, penance from confession could sometimes be quite severe.

Let's say a blacksmith was given a penance of his work for 2 weeks to be donated solely to feed the poor. Now he has a wife and kids and 2 weeks is a substantial burden to feeding and maintaining his family. You as a blacksmith could as an act of charity donate a week of your time to help this blacksmith meet his penance. Now you friend is an accountant and cannot work in a smithy, he could donate money to help cover the penance.

Now let's extend this to purgatory. The souls in purgatory are not in full communion with God yet. Their souls are undergoing a type of penance to be cleansed of impurity. Since I cannot exchange my labour, I can offer alms to the poor on their behalf to help pay the purification. I can also offer intercessory prayer (which has always been considered more valuable) on their behalf.

In essence the Church uses indulgences to encourage the faithful to perform good works. The works include generally include praying, attending Mass, reading the Bible and Charity. Works of charity included (but were not limited to) donation of money to help the poor or to promote the glory of God.

In this light Pope Julius II granted a Plenary indulgence to all who confessed their sins, received the Eucharist and contributed according to their means towards the construction of St. Peter's Basilica. Tetzel, took this to be a sale instead of a donation and charged a price for the indulgence. This was simony and a serious sin on his part.

People such as Tetzel made a killing doing this, all with Rome's approval.

[Tetzel's] opinion found no recognition but actual condemnation at the hands of authoritative writers, and was rejected in explicit terms by Cardinal Cajetan as late as 1517-19. By the teaching he laid himself open to just censure and reproach. To condition a plenary indulgence for the dead on the mere gift of money, without contrition on the part of the giver, was as repugnant to the teaching of the Church, as it violated every principle of elementary justice. "Preachers act in the name of the Church", writes Cardinal Cajetan, "so long as they teach the doctrines of Christ and the Church; but if they teach, guided by their own minds and arbitrariness of will, things of which they are ignorant, they cannot pass as representatives of the Church; it need not be wondered at that they go astray" (Paulus, "Johann Tetzel", 165). It was this deviation from the correct teaching of the Church and the obtrusive and disgraceful injection of the treasury chest, that led to abuses and scandals reprobated by such contemporaries as Cochl"us, Emser, and Duke George (Paulus, op. cit., 117-18). "Grave abuses arose; the attitude of the preachers, the manner of offering and publishing the indulgences aroused many scandals; above all, Tetzel is in no way to be exonerated" (Janssen-Pastor, "Geschichte des deutsch. Volkes", 18th ed., Freiburg, II, 84).

http://www.newadvent.org...

It had become a business, wealthy Italian banking families used their influence to place their own on the throne, at least one Pope fathered illegitimate children, and there were rumors (probably true) that one Pope was a practicing homosexual.

And yet the Church has never claimed impeccability of the Popes. There has always been corruption in the Church. It is made up of sinners. One of its first 12 bishops betrayed Christ, and its first Pope denied Him 3 times. Heck, only the youngest bishop had the courage to stand at the foot of the cross.

Yet through all of that none of those bishops altered the teachings of the Magisterium. Before Luther, St. Francis saw the corruption and worked to rebuild the Church. The so called counter-reformation in the Church, actually began prior to the protestant reformation.

At the very least, the church needed to undergo some serious reforms. Martin Luther decided on another course of action: break apart from the Church of Rome and form a pure, doctrinally sound church (whether or not his church was doctrinally sound or not is another matter). In short, Martin Luther caused countless people in Europe to leave the Catholic Church and join other churches which rightly placed an emphasis on salvation by grace through faith (Sola Gratia).

The Catholic Church has always taught salvation can only come through Grace. Luther's version was a perverted form of that.

The Roman Church wasn't about to fix itself, so the way I see it the Reformation was needed so that at least half of all European Christians bought into sound doctrine in regards to salvation.

I would argue that they were brought out of sound doctrine. Look how many different theologies there are now. How many denominations? 30,000?
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 8:27:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 2:48:59 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I know this thread is intended to not be confrontational, but please excuse me as I try to argue with you about this:
The church was kind of screwed up by the time of the Reformation. The church was making money by telling people they needed to pay money to the church otherwise they'd spend thousands of years in a quasi-hell in penance for their sins. People such as Tetzel made a killing doing this, all with Rome's approval. It had become a business, wealthy Italian banking families used their influence to place their own on the throne, at least one Pope fathered illegitimate children, and there were rumors (probably true) that one Pope was a practicing homosexual.
At the very least, the church needed to undergo some serious reforms. Martin Luther decided on another course of action: break apart from the Church of Rome and form a pure, doctrinally sound church (whether or not his church was doctrinally sound or not is another matter). In short, Martin Luther caused countless people in Europe to leave the Catholic Church and join other churches which rightly placed an emphasis on salvation by grace through faith (Sola Gratia). The Roman Church wasn't about to fix itself, so the way I see it the Reformation was needed so that at least half of all European Christians bought into sound doctrine in regards to salvation.

The history of the Church can be seen as cyclical: Rome is pulled into Italian power politics, corrupted by a decadent court, and then a wave of Northern radicals sweeps through the Church and reforms it. This happened numerous times before the Reformation, but when it came time to reform the church again the process gridlocked due to recent political maneuvering which had tied the church closely to the European political apparatus. This produced frustration, which was taken advantage of by several political leaders who wished to break free from the Church. These leaders proceeded to use Protestant theology as a justification. Whether a rebellion against a mother empire (the Dutch), a challenge to a King's authority, which was tied to the church (The French Protestant movement), an attempt to unite into a larger, nationalistic state (Philip of Hesse and Martin Luther), or an attempt to establish a new, nationalistic religion (Henry VIII), just about all of the Protestant movements were seized upon in order to foment political schism with the church when it came to worldly powers, which nurtured doctrinal divisions when it came to spiritual powers. The end result was the weakening of Christendom, the birth of European Nationalism, and a potent cultural divide between southern and northern Europe which persists to this day.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Dogknox
Posts: 5,070
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 9:30:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 2:53:49 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The way I see it, the Roman Church was basically the idea that all Christendom needed to be united, and that the Leader of Christendom needed to be someone who was part of the line which succeeded Saint Peter. This works just so long as the Church teaches sound doctrine and isn't corrupt. By the time of Martin Luther it had become messed up.
Vox_Veritas Good to meet you..
I reply: with Scripture Prophesy

FACT: Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest, he was AMONG Catholics, he started out as a Catholic! Until Martin Luther was born, there was Just the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church Jesus established!

Prophesy...
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them"bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.


Verse #1 (above).. there will be false teachers among you. This is PROPHESY! This prophesy cannot work in the reverse... The Catholic Church was NOT "Among" Martin Luther! The prophesy can only work in the one direction.. Martin Luther was AMONG Catholics.. This Prophesy tells you; "Martin Luther is a FALSE TEACHER"! It proves Martin Luther is a False Teacher.

Verse #2 (above) proves the Catholic Church is the "Way Of Truth"! The prophesy cannot work in the reverse, "Martin Luther was AMONG Catholic' not Catholic Church among Martin Luther"! It PROVES The Heretic Martin Luther is a False teacher. It Proves all who believe the TRADITIONS "He started are a Lie".. "Scriptures and Faith ALONE" are his teaching, his TRADITION are what his followers believe!!!

Jesus is ALWAYS with the One Church He established.. He did not leave her!
THE GREAT COMMISSION: 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

To be in Protest against the Catholic Church the De-Former had to reject the Great Commission, had to believe Jesus lied, that Jesus is NOT "Always with his Church to the end of time"!

With the first lie of Martin Luther comes others and others and others.. The de-Formers have to reject the scriptures to be in Protest with the False teacher!
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 12:03:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 9:30:28 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/23/2015 2:53:49 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The way I see it, the Roman Church was basically the idea that all Christendom needed to be united, and that the Leader of Christendom needed to be someone who was part of the line which succeeded Saint Peter. This works just so long as the Church teaches sound doctrine and isn't corrupt. By the time of Martin Luther it had become messed up.
Vox_Veritas Good to meet you..
I reply: with Scripture Prophesy

FACT: Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest, he was AMONG Catholics, he started out as a Catholic! Until Martin Luther was born, there was Just the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church Jesus established!

Well, the Nestorian, Syriac, Armenian, Coptic, and Eastern Orthodox churches also existed at that time, not to mention historical schismatics like the Arians.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Dogknox
Posts: 5,070
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2015 11:31:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 12:03:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 7/24/2015 9:30:28 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/23/2015 2:53:49 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The way I see it, the Roman Church was basically the idea that all Christendom needed to be united, and that the Leader of Christendom needed to be someone who was part of the line which succeeded Saint Peter. This works just so long as the Church teaches sound doctrine and isn't corrupt. By the time of Martin Luther it had become messed up.
Vox_Veritas Good to meet you..
I reply: with Scripture Prophesy

FACT: Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest, he was AMONG Catholics, he started out as a Catholic! Until Martin Luther was born, there was Just the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church Jesus established!

Well, the Nestorian, Syriac, Armenian, Coptic, and Eastern Orthodox churches also existed at that time, not to mention historical schismatics like the Arians.

Skepsikyma Good to meet you..
I reply: Aries was a Catholic.. He was AMONG Catholic's! Catholic Church was NOT AMONG Arius.
Arius taught "Jesus was NOT God" He got his ideas from the scriptures.. Much the same as the Jehovah Witnesses. The Catholic Church removed him as a "False teacher" a Heretic!

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them"bringing swift destruction on themselves.


The Prophesy PROVES he is a False teacher... When Arius was removed there was NO other Church BUT the Holy Catholic Church!

By the time of Martin Luther there was still the same church.. The Holy Catholic Church!!
Skepsikyma You say what you say makes no difference... You MUST reject the scriptures to say it!!! Jesus established only one Church..LOOK.. at the scriptures..

THE GREAT COMMISSION...MATTHEW 28
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."


verse #19 tells you.. "Disciples are made by Baptism"! The very same way Disciples are still made today, in the Catholic Church! For 2000 years the Catholic Church has been trusting the Great Commission to make Disciples of ALL Nations by Baptism!!

verse #20 Tells you "The Church can TEACH ALL NATIONS!" The Catholic Church has the AUTHORITY of God to TEACH! For 2000 years Catholic Church has been trusting the Great Commission to TEACH ALL NATIONS with all the Authority of God!!

verse #20 Tells you "Jesus is ALWAYS with his Church to the very end of time!"

Skepsikyma The Protester, the person with roots back to the Deforming rejects a "Teaching Church" they (Most) reject "Baptism saves" ALL say..
"Satan has SOMEHOW overpowered Jesus; Satan has taken Jesus' body (Church) from Jesus"! THINK..
Skepsikyma think about this..They MUST reject verse #20.. To justify the need to make their many churches!!!
They MUST reject verse #20 as LIES coming straight from the mouth of God!! That Jesus is NOT ALWAYS with his body to the end of time!!

Skepsikyma All the others every one you mentioned MUST reject the "Great Commission" to remain in Protest against: "Jesus' Holy BLAMELESS Catholic Church"! Jesus is ALWAYS with his Church.. If Jesus is always with her his BRIDE then their Protesting man made Churches are with Satan! They reject Jesus' Holy Bride he is ALWAYS WITH!

Skepsikyma They (YOU) MUST REJECT the scriptures to be Protestant!! To accept the scriptures word for word you MUST be a Catholic! LOOK...
Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.


verse #25.. Jesus died for his Church, he LOVES his Holy Catholic Church!
verse #26 .. Jesus made his one Holy Catholic Church.. HOLY by Baptizing !!
verse #27.. Jesus' ONE Church he established 2000 years ago is Holy and BLAMELESS!

All the people with roots to the de-Formation... MUST..Reject Ephesians 5:25-27 are LIES written in the bible! As Lies from the mouth of God!

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to GUIDE his church FOREVER To be with his one Holy Blameless Church>>> FOREVER!!
Skepsikyma The Man in protest MUST reject this verse also.. They teach the Holy Spirit left Jesus' Church for theirs!
They teach that "Somehow God errs, that the Holt Spirit lead the Church Jesus established into error!"

On and on it goes.. One lie leads into many many lies ... To be protestant you MUST reject the scriptures!